I think the founding fathers are coming under an increasing attack or revision by those mainly on the left who for some reason wish to denigrate, take away accomplishments or demonize them for some reason. Why ? who knows. Were they perfect or beyond criticizm ? No, They are not gods and they all had faults as does any great person throughout time has. They also were Men who were mostly well off land owners who not only risked their fianacial security, they risked their lives and the lives of their families in some cases because they believed so greatly in a cause and were the catalysts in the revolution to break away from being ruled by a king. The chances they took in the face of incerdibly ominous odds is awe inspiring. They also gave us or laid the ground work or used the best parts of other systems for the constitution, the bill of rights, our system of government, our system of rule, law, etc. And many other great accomplishments that are envyed throughout the world. They were years ahead of their time and had great foresight.
So why are we removing names of the founding fathers from schools ? Because of the slavery issue ? Which although an abhorent practive was thought of as a normal given the time, today it seems and is reprehensible but putting yourself in 1776 would not seem out of the ordinary. So should we go back in time and take away accomplishments of anyone who ever did wrong ? Or owned slaves ? Is it because as the phrase is so easily bandied about, that they are just a bunch of dead white european males ? I don't know, I do know that somewhere is a line between deserved criticism and slander or a malicious effort to take away the accomplishments of the people that did many great things for their and our nation that we enjoy today for without thier efforts who knows where we would be today as a nation if we would even be a nation at all ?
I would say it has been added to, with those amendments but otherwise the original ammendments have for the most part remained unchanged as Cookie pointed out. And I agree that it does say something.
....constitutional government is a sort lucky fluke that random  peoples stumble on from time to time, once in a millennium   perhaps. The English figured it out somehow in the   early-modern period, and carried it to their colonies, who   improved on it........Most of the world,..... is sunk in political darkness, which is the   natural state of mankind.
The people of these places know that something is lacking, but they just can't figure out what the heck it is.
As I have aged I have grown fonder of our lands past and have much respect for how we got here and its complete beauty-we are truly blessed to have ever been able to see & feel any of it. Some like: Jefferson, Smith, Franklin, gave their all for a future in America- But more currently it seams our current government officials have given their 'all' to make us feel smothered with taxes again and feel what our forfathers felt when they decided to leave Britian and try anew.
I love where I live...actually we originally intended to live here for only a couple of years but with all of the remodeling we are doing and have done-we don't ever want to leave EXCEPT for I wish we had a bigger back yard AND TAXES are killing us! St Paul, Minnesota taxes are somewhat almost as high as living in California! I love this city but it has its own stress to stay here-I tease about moving to Canada every once in a while but that will never happen. Family and loyalty to America keeps me here no matter how much they tax us :(
"If our founding fathers saw the size and extent of government and taxes they would S**T thier knickers ! "
I don't know that that the size of government or taxes would be the one thing that would set them off. I read a story awhile ago that supports the contention that the characters that started this country would want us all to be farmers. Didn't like cities. Didn't have much use for industry. A lot of the things we value they didn't care for at all. So I don't know why government would bother them any more or less than anything else.
Frankly, their vision of the US doesn't appear like anyplace I'd want to live. So if we strayed, big deal. The "Founding Fathers" that are held up like dieties aren't infallable. If they couldn't find more right than wrong, that would be their problem. They dumped a few of their problems on our collective laps, too. So I'd call it pretty much even.
Frankly, their vision of the US doesn't appear like anyplace I'd want to live
Of course their vision was different in some ways but keep in mind the times and climate of the world. It was alot different. But they also gave us the foundation to what we have today.
They dumped a few of their problems on our collective laps, too. So I'd call it pretty much even.
Is it a contest ? and what problems did they dump in our lap?
I have never been one to annoint or turn the founding fathers into deity. They were human and fallable. Of course they would have the obvious shock of technology and advancements etc etc. I'm sure they wouldn't like city life, heck many people today don't like it and that's why they are moving out. But I do think they'd have an accident in their knickers if we are talking strictly about govt. Once adjusted to the culture I think they would be shocked to see how much more govt. is involved in our every day lives and the level of not only taxation but the extent that controll is given back to the govt itself.
Again of course they were humans who were fallable and made bad decisions in their life, show me a great leader who didn't but why the effort to remove their names from schools ? Afterall their just dead white european males right ? Why the effort to drag them through the mud ? The other day you mused how or why some wanted to drag the womens right or abortion proponnent (I forget the name) through the mud. She's dead you said, and found it distasteful Well so do I when I see an effort by some to trash them for some reason or to be p.c fact is they made sacrifices and took huge risks that are easy to talk about but harder to do. They gave us a great foundation to build this nation on and suddenly it seems we are looking for ways to trash them or their legacy. Why ? Let it go.
Seems to me, they didn't close the loop on slavery when they should have. They punted. Passed the problem off to future generations. We're still paying for their procrastination.
These weren't people out of the Renaissance. They studied the Enlightenment philosophers. They were modern men. We could hold a conversation with them today. They knew what was wrong and they knew what they needed to do.
As for "dragging them through the mud" I don't know exactly what you mean. I know that taking Washington's name off a school is just silly. As for Jefferson and an illigitemate child from one of his slave? Taking care of the kid after he was born would be my concern.
Jefferson strikes me as a rather lonely guy. I think he lost his wife at a young age. He seemed to make decisions that indicated he was rather lost himself at times. It's not my duty to judge him personally.
Seems to me, they didn't close the loop on slavery when they should have. They punted. Passed the problem off to future generations. We're still paying for their procrastination.
Well, first of all they had to get support to even form a country. There were still many loyalists to England at that time. Trying to do so at that time would have spelt doom for the revolution. They would have never gotten the support needed if they included that originally. Granted once the revolution was won they should have but so did other presidents and leaders who were't the founding fathers.
As for "dragging them through the mud" I don't know exactly what you mean. I know that taking Washington's name off a school is just silly. As for Jefferson and an illigitemate child from one of his slave? Taking care of the kid after he was born would be my concern.
Taking his name off of schools is exaclty the kind of dragging through the mud I am referring to. Same with Jefferson. As far as the rumors or facts of him having an illegitamte child from a slave and that being a reason to drag him through the muck I don't know, I thought that personal life didn't matter ? ;) Where have I heard that ? From the same people who want to take Jefferson and Washington's name off of schools probably, but I agree it is silly.
What's with the sly smile? Didn't I say that I'm not judging him personally?
I can't speak for anyone but myself on that. I don't know how many people are judging him that way. Seems to me, he's still in pretty good favor with most people
I should clarify, the smile wasn't directed at you. It's directed at the people who for some reason want their names removed from schools. I should have been more specific.
What's got 132 rooms, 412 doors, 31 toilets, 12 chimneys, 3 elevators, 147 windows to squeegee, 18 acres to mow, four-year, rent-free lease complete with 2 swimming pools, a movie theater, bowling alleys and a putting green, a domestic staff of 91 servants to wash your clothes & cook your meals?
What’s got 132 rooms, 412 doors, 31 toilets, 12 chimneys, 3 elevators, 147 windows to squeegee, 18 acres to mow, four-year, rent-free lease complete with 2 swimming pools, a movie theater, bowling alleys and a putting green, a domestic staff of 91 servants to wash your clothes & cook your meals?
I don't think anyone ever said that they were, not that I've seen anyways. I just don't understand why the effort of some to denigrate or detract from their actual accomplishmnts.
Sounds like a guy who wanted a strong federal government? The men of that time did us all a favor by carefully crafting the Constitution and doing so knowing that it was a changeable object of laws and guidlines for democracy.
Strong Government is one thing, overpowering, overbearing and perpetually growing is quite another.
I don't think anyone ever said that they were, not that I've seen anyways. I just don't understand why the effort of some to denigrate or detract from their actual accomplishmnts.
Those same people hate what our founding fathers stand for. They only want freedom if it serves their purpose.
Strong Government is one thing, overpowering, overbearing and perpetually growing is quite another.
Exactly. There's a fine line between the two. It's up to us, the people. to define that line. In this country we give the government their power and if we wanted to, we could take it away.
last night -(don't criticize me) I was listening to Mama's Family while falling asleep-I swear...Mama says "the good the bad and the ugly" in their conversation...I lift my head to say..."another coinkidink"! every time I say or do something -something identical happens soon!
I was watching a show on Home & Garden with the girls day before last and I say to my girls "she sounds like Princess Diana" within, I kid you not!...a minute...they show a picture of Princess Diana stating that this woman and her were great friends!!!!!!
No purely on the law and the Cosntitution. People like you, fold, do not care about those things. People of your ilk only care about the results. In other words you are people without principle.
Your ignorance is as immense as the Grand Canyon, fold. The resaon we have so many problems in governmnet and society is because of the unbounded ignorance of your ilk!!!!
"People of your ilk only care about the results. In other words you are people without principle."
Just like Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee. Twisting the Constitution, and sending hundreds of thousands to their death to suit their own perverted nationbuilding ambitions.
No, Lincoln and his ilk twisted the Constitution to get the result that he wanted. You and your ilk, Rick, refuse to consider anything other than you were taught. Hence, your insistence on calling Davis a traitor. Funny, if he was such a traitor, that he didn't get executed.
"Well that would have been big of him if he weren't already dead when Davis was captured."
True enough (I guess that makes Davis a traitor and coward, as well), but Lee was there, I believe. After Lincoln's death would anyone in the country had a taste for more death?
"Wouldn't you want at least a military tribunal."
I don't think I'd have wanted to see any of them die. But a show trial? -- that would have been a bad decision.
It seems they are demonized and trivialized these days.
What are your thoughts?
Thanks for the new "threads" THX,
I think the founding fathers are coming under an increasing attack or revision by those mainly on the left who for some reason wish to denigrate, take away accomplishments or demonize them for some reason.
Why ? who knows. Were they perfect or beyond criticizm ? No, They are not gods and they all had faults as does any great person throughout time has. They also were Men who were mostly well off land owners who not only risked their fianacial security, they risked their lives and the lives of their families in some cases because they believed so greatly in a cause and were the catalysts in the revolution to break away from being ruled by a king. The chances they took in the face of incerdibly ominous odds is awe inspiring. They also gave us or laid the ground work or used the best parts of other systems for the constitution, the bill of rights, our system of government, our system of rule, law, etc.
And many other great accomplishments that are envyed throughout the world. They were years ahead of their time and had great foresight.
So why are we removing names of the founding fathers from schools ? Because of the slavery issue ? Which although an abhorent practive was thought of as a normal given the time, today it seems and is reprehensible but putting yourself in 1776 would not seem out of the ordinary. So should we go back in time and take away accomplishments of anyone who ever did wrong ? Or owned slaves ? Is it because as the phrase is so easily bandied about, that they are just a bunch of dead white european males ? I don't know, I do know that somewhere is a line between deserved criticism and slander or a malicious effort to take away the accomplishments of the people that did many great things for their and our nation that we enjoy today for without thier efforts who knows where we would be today as a nation if we would even be a nation at all ?
The chances they took in the face of incerdibly ominous odds is awe inspiring.
They had everything to lose, including their lives.
Not one line of The Constitution has been changed and prolly never will be. I think that speaks for itself.
What about the 27 times it's been changed by way of Amendments?
I would say it has been added to, with those amendments but otherwise the original ammendments have for the most part remained unchanged as Cookie pointed out. And I agree that it does say something.
I would agree.
I wanted to get to the point that we do have the ability to make some changes the Constitution as needed.
The cornerstone is the same as it always was.
http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/D/1776-1800/constitution/amends.htm
Here they are if anyone is interested.
"Life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness?".
http://www.thevrwc.org/Locke/
http://www.nationalreview.com/derbyshire/derbyshire061402.asp
....constitutional government is a sort lucky fluke that random
 peoples stumble on from time to time, once in a millennium
  perhaps. The English figured it out somehow in the
  early-modern period, and carried it to their colonies, who
  improved on it........Most of the world,..... is sunk in political darkness, which is the
  natural state of mankind.
The people of these places know that something is lacking, but they just can't figure out what the heck it is.
As I have aged I have grown fonder of our lands past and have much respect for how we got here and its complete beauty-we are truly blessed to have ever been able to see & feel any of it. Some like: Jefferson, Smith, Franklin, gave their all for a future in America- But more currently it seams our current government officials have given their 'all' to make us feel smothered with taxes again and feel what our forfathers felt when they decided to leave Britian and try anew.
As I said before Me2, If our founding fathers saw the size and extent of government and taxes they would S**T thier knickers !
I love where I live...actually we originally intended to live here for only a couple of years but with all of the remodeling we are doing and have done-we don't ever want to leave EXCEPT for I wish we had a bigger back yard AND TAXES are killing us! St Paul, Minnesota taxes are somewhat almost as high as living in California! I love this city but it has its own stress to stay here-I tease about moving to Canada every once in a while but that will never happen. Family and loyalty to America keeps me here no matter how much they tax us :(
Me2, I have only two words to say on you staying here.
Medallion Hunt
oh, duh- 3 things :)
see, much as canada would be nice, i'd miss the cold minnesota winters. wait. that logic is kinda self-defeating, isn't it?
"If our founding fathers saw the size and extent of government and taxes they would S**T thier knickers ! "
I don't know that that the size of government or taxes would be the one thing that would set them off. I read a story awhile ago that supports the contention that the characters that started this country would want us all to be farmers. Didn't like cities. Didn't have much use for industry. A lot of the things we value they didn't care for at all. So I don't know why government would bother them any more or less than anything else.
Frankly, their vision of the US doesn't appear like anyplace I'd want to live. So if we strayed, big deal. The "Founding Fathers" that are held up like dieties aren't infallable. If they couldn't find more right than wrong, that would be their problem. They dumped a few of their problems on our collective laps, too. So I'd call it pretty much even.
Rick,
Of course their vision was different in some ways but keep in mind the times and climate of the world. It was alot different. But they also gave us the foundation to what we have today.
Is it a contest ? and what problems did they dump in our lap?
I have never been one to annoint or turn the founding fathers into deity. They were human and fallable. Of course they would have the obvious shock of technology and advancements etc etc. I'm sure they wouldn't like city life, heck many people today don't like it and that's why they are moving out. But I do think they'd have an accident in their knickers if we are talking strictly about govt. Once adjusted to the culture I think they would be shocked to see how much more govt. is involved in our every day lives and the level of not only taxation but the extent that controll is given back to the govt itself.
Again of course they were humans who were fallable and made bad decisions in their life, show me a great leader who didn't but why the effort to remove their names from schools ? Afterall their just dead white european males right ? Why the effort to drag them through the mud ? The other day you mused how or why some wanted to drag the womens right or abortion proponnent (I forget the name) through the mud. She's dead you said, and found it distasteful Well so do I when I see an effort by some to trash them for some reason or to be p.c fact is they made sacrifices and took huge risks that are easy to talk about but harder to do. They gave us a great foundation to build this nation on and suddenly it seems we are looking for ways to trash them or their legacy. Why ? Let it go.
"and what problems did they dump in our lap?"
Seems to me, they didn't close the loop on slavery when they should have. They punted. Passed the problem off to future generations. We're still paying for their procrastination.
These weren't people out of the Renaissance. They studied the Enlightenment philosophers. They were modern men. We could hold a conversation with them today. They knew what was wrong and they knew what they needed to do.
As for "dragging them through the mud" I don't know exactly what you mean. I know that taking Washington's name off a school is just silly. As for Jefferson and an illigitemate child from one of his slave? Taking care of the kid after he was born would be my concern.
Jefferson strikes me as a rather lonely guy. I think he lost his wife at a young age. He seemed to make decisions that indicated he was rather lost himself at times. It's not my duty to judge him personally.
Well, first of all they had to get support to even form a country. There were still many loyalists to England at that time. Trying to do so at that time would have spelt doom for the revolution. They would have never gotten the support needed if they included that originally. Granted once the revolution was won they should have but so did other presidents and leaders who were't the founding fathers.
Taking his name off of schools is exaclty the kind of dragging through the mud I am referring to. Same with Jefferson. As far as the rumors or facts of him having an illegitamte child from a slave and that being a reason to drag him through the muck I don't know, I thought that personal life didn't matter ? ;) Where have I heard that ? From the same people who want to take Jefferson and Washington's name off of schools probably, but I agree it is silly.
"I thought that personal life didn't matter ? ;)"
What's with the sly smile? Didn't I say that I'm not judging him personally?
I can't speak for anyone but myself on that. I don't know how many people are judging him that way. Seems to me, he's still in pretty good favor with most people
Rick,
I should clarify, the smile wasn't directed at you. It's directed at the people who for some reason want their names removed from schools. I should have been more specific.
What's got 132 rooms, 412 doors, 31 toilets, 12 chimneys, 3 elevators, 147 windows to squeegee, 18 acres to mow, four-year, rent-free lease complete with 2 swimming pools, a movie theater, bowling alleys and a putting green, a domestic staff of 91 servants to wash your clothes & cook your meals?
and that's just the stats that aren'tclassified.
The hotel Chestur A Arthur ?
I think the 'servants' part gave it away---they don't get paid at the Cheter A. Arthur!
I don't think anyone ever said that they were, not that I've seen anyways. I just don't understand why the effort of some to denigrate or detract from their actual accomplishmnts.
Strong Government is one thing, overpowering, overbearing and perpetually growing is quite another.
I don't think anyone ever said that they were, not that I've seen anyways. I just don't understand why the effort of some to denigrate or detract from their actual accomplishmnts.
Those same people hate what our founding fathers stand for. They only want freedom if it serves their purpose.
Strong Government is one thing, overpowering, overbearing and perpetually growing is quite another.
Exactly. There's a fine line between the two. It's up to us, the people. to define that line. In this country we give the government their power and if we wanted to, we could take it away.
BF, you see the good as well as the bad.
:-)
you see the good as well as the bad.
as well as the ugly too :)
just kinda all went together, yah know?
No, we don't care for the ugly.
Than I can stay? :)
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
:-)
So... we all stay :)
This only happens to me?
last night -(don't criticize me) I was listening to Mama's Family while falling asleep-I swear...Mama says "the good the bad and the ugly" in their conversation...I lift my head to say..."another coinkidink"! every time I say or do something -something identical happens soon!
I was watching a show on Home & Garden with the girls day before last and I say to my girls "she sounds like Princess Diana" within, I kid you not!...a minute...they show a picture of Princess Diana stating that this woman and her were great friends!!!!!!
I could literally-scream!
Wise men wrote the Constitution, but clever judges have been destroying it, bit by bit, turning it into an instrument of arbitrary judicial power, instead of a limitation on all government power.
No purely on the law and the Cosntitution. People like you, fold, do not care about those things. People of your ilk only care about the results. In other words you are people without principle.
Your ignorance is as immense as the Grand Canyon, fold. The resaon we have so many problems in governmnet and society is because of the unbounded ignorance of your ilk!!!!
he said "ilk" (snicker)
got ilk ?
Ilk is a good word but Canyon is my favorite word from Jethro's post.
Unbounded is a close second.
"People of your ilk only care about the results. In other words you are people without principle."
Just like Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee. Twisting the Constitution, and sending hundreds of thousands to their death to suit their own perverted nationbuilding ambitions.
Blind with hubris!
No, Lincoln and his ilk twisted the Constitution to get the result that he wanted. You and your ilk, Rick, refuse to consider anything other than you were taught. Hence, your insistence on calling Davis a traitor. Funny, if he was such a traitor, that he didn't get executed.
You must remember that the south seceded through their elected representatives and followed a democratic process to do so.
" Funny, if he was such a traitor, that he didn't get executed."
Lincoln probably saw no need in turning them into martyrs.
But it would have been within his authority to carry it out right behind Appomatox Courthouse.
Lincoln signed execution orders for troops who fell asleep on guard duty.
Davis, Lee et. al. were lucky to get out of the war with their hides.
Jethro: Civil War Attorney General
Wouldn't you want at least a military tribunal?
"Well that would have been big of him if he weren't already dead when Davis was captured."
True enough (I guess that makes Davis a traitor and coward, as well), but Lee was there, I believe. After Lincoln's death would anyone in the country had a taste for more death?
"Wouldn't you want at least a military tribunal."
I don't think I'd have wanted to see any of them die. But a show trial? -- that would have been a bad decision.
"Maybe Andy Johnson knew that Davis and Lee weren't guilty of treason.''
Maybe pigs will fly around my neighborhood, too. It's just about as likely.