James Madison’s “Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments” was written in 1785 in opposition to a proposal by Patrick Henry that all Virginians be taxed to support “teachers of the Christian religion.” To this day, the “Memorial and Remonstrance” remains one of the most powerful arguments against government-supported religion ever penned. This is the full text of the document. Original spelling and punctuation have been retained.
We the subscribers, citizens of the said Commonwealth, having taken into serious consideration, a Bill printed by order of the last Session of General Assembly, entitled "A Bill establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," and conceiving that the same if finally armed with the sanctions of a law, will be a dangerous abuse of power, are bound as faithful members of a free State to remonstrate against it, and to declare the reasons by which we are determined. We remonstrate against the said Bill,
1. Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governour of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign. We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man's right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority.
That the 14th Amendment was originally passed as a narrow law for protecting civil rights and never meant to stop the states from passing their own laws that were independent from the ones passed by congress... and that when the constitution says "Congress shall make no laws...." It meant only the federal congress excluding the states and that the state legislatures can pass laws contradictory to the ones passed by congress.
This is absolute bull.. By this logic.. all 50 states can theoretically pass laws that is in violation of the first amendment... So if all 50 states pass laws prohibiting free speech and even can establish their own religion (Christianity of course)... the federal constitution has no bearing on such laws..Oh... maybe then some states like California and New York can revoke the second amendment by passing states laws to make it illegal for citizens to bare arms.... or form a Militia...tee hee....
This basically means that the States have supremacy over the Federal constitution.....
I can't imagine people are willing to shove their common sense up their ass...
THX says.. "Of course not, and that's exactly why my children attend private school. That's why parents should have true choice. So they don't have to send their kids to public school. "
I have a better Idea. Just reduce the portion from say..Property Tax that goes to public school and let the parents decide where to send their kids.
Basically.. no more Public school. All schools will be Pvt.
The problem comes.. when you allow the Govt.. to collect your money and then expect them to distribute it to religious institutions.. Thats a NO NO.
So, if you take away that power from the Govt... then there is no conflict to begin with...unless ofcourse you feel that your religion cannot stand on its own merit that it would need the crutch of the govt.. to prop it up.. ;)
I'm against religion in school and disagree with most "conservatives" on this issue.
I'm disgusted with the hypocrisy of my local schools. They recognize Ramadan & Hannakah at the school down the street, yet are prohibited from mentioning Christmas. They have a life sized cut-out of Gandhi, and go over his Hindu beliefs. Yet when they discuss MLK, they ignore the fact that he was first and foremost a Christian.
I'm fine with that except for the fact that those that cannot afford it should also be given and education. What of those that don't own property, and therefore don't pay property tax?
The problem comes.. when you allow the Govt.. to collect your money and then expect them to distribute it to religious institutions.. Thats a NO NO.
That's not true. They do it in higher education every day. Giving taxpayer monies to religious schools is not establishment of a religion.
So, if you take away that power from the Govt... then there is no conflict to begin with...unless ofcourse you feel that your religion cannot stand on its own merit that it would need the crutch of the govt.. to prop it up.. ;)
That's not the issue. My school stands on it's own merits. My issue is that I'm currently paying twice for my childrens education. It simply shouldn't be that way.
Public schools should stick to education, not moral indoctrination. When I say this, I mean from either side. For their morals may be contrary to mine, or yours.
What if in public schools they taught children that atheists were immoral devils?
Taught that homesexuals were sub human?
Taught that women were subordinate to men?
Taught that blacks were a higher form of monkeys?
Taught that if your parents don't vote for the school levy, you the student will suffer the consequences?
My issue is that I'm currently paying twice for my childrens education. It simply shouldn't be that way.
But I pay for schools when I don't have children... and now..they want to use my funds to send others kids for indoctrination of some faith..I don't care about.
If one would atleast shut up about getting free education..instead of whining about..not getting enough of their faith...in this free education..I can atleast stay quiet about it..
;)
Well.. Since.. health care (Physical health) is not an entitlement , I don't see..why mental health is any different.. It should not be an entitlement.. No more social programs.. no more Public schools...
"I'm disgusted with the hypocrisy of my local schools. They recognize Ramadan & Hannakah at the school down the street, yet are prohibited from mentioning Christmas. They have a life sized cut-out of Gandhi, and go over his Hindu beliefs. Yet when they discuss MLK, they ignore the fact that he was first and foremost a Christian.
"
First folks ask for Public school... then they want THEIR religion brought in... Like there isn't enough.. I mean , walk down some street here in Ulles. Texas. There is a church for every three houses.. these folks can't have enough.. they want to pray in taxpayers paid public schools too.. Oh..the Tyranny of the Minority... they cry.. You would think..this is Mecca or something....
"I'm disgusted with the hypocrisy of my local schools. They recognize Ramadan & Hannakah at the school down the street, yet are prohibited from mentioning Christmas. They have a life sized cut-out of Gandhi, and go over his Hindu beliefs. Yet when they discuss MLK, they ignore the fact that he was first and foremost a Christian. "
Imagine this was Saudi Arabia... for a second.. OK
Imagine..if they taught ABOUT other religions like Judaism, Hindusim, Christianity, Jainism, Buddism etc... but are cautious about Islam..
Would that be irrational? I mean...almost all of them have had Islam shoved up their vasu every day..Wouldn't it be nice that they are NOT taught other religion but ABOUT other religion.. I feel the Saudis need to do it..
I mean.. Even if you take the worst case scenario... wouldn't that be the case here too..
Where is ones commonsense in these type of situations?
I feel...any country that has their majority of the popluation following one religion..that they ought to be taught ABOUT other religion... I wish , they would teach about Christianity in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. And keep Islam away from their Schools.
Claim: Alleged quote from Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
Rebuttal: This quote has not been traced back to an original source, and is a questionable quote used by David Barton. Based on other quotes made by Patrick Henry, it is not inconsistent with his general opinions. His claim to fame rests in the founding of the nation of Virginia, his battle with Jefferson and Madison in trying to keep Christianity as the legally established religion of the Nation of Virginia, and his efforts in trying to keep the Constitution from being ratified.He lost both of those battles with Madison.
If his claim is true, then it is odd that the primary legal document which defines the government of this nation has no references whatsoever to Jesus Christ or any deity whatsoever, basing its authority instead on "We the people."
I too think its somewhat hypocritical to have Christianity be excluded from schools while celebrating others. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for learning about other religions. I think it can put Christianity into a negative light, and that many kids can be deprived of learning about it. Do it in a factual way. Don't get into morals or what is better. Approach it from a historical perspective, some tenants perhaps, celebrations and rituals involved. Growing up I could have been classified "Lutheran" or "Catholic" very loosely, but I didn't have religion. I didn't know much about Christianity or other religions. I would have liked to have known some basics about the religions though. I would want equal opportunity for all religions.
Thanks for posting all that cool information-I love history
But I pay for schools when I don't have children
My brother in law has no children of his own but he see's his tax money in this way -it goes to help his nieces in school.
I have talked to people with no children who pay the tax and they have seen it as making our neighborhoods a better place - when kids in their areas are in school learning; there is less vandelizism and theft - the kids have a better chance at growing up and being better neighbors....you got a neighbor M&M? Wouldn't want to think they can't read or hold a job and sit around all day in their front yard on a broken chair throwing beer cans into a corner. They never mow their yard cause they don't have money to buy a lawnmower. Not all problems are solved with school but a better chance in life is given. If you couldn't go to school cause your parents couldn't afford to send you, imagine where you would be today if not for the help of your community. Now, I hope you don't turn around and claim this isn't your problem.
maybe if you feel it such a horrible thing, you can try to write off the school taxes on your taxes as if you were donating back to your community ;p
I also agree with Those Med Kids: Many countries are based on some sort of religion -it is history.
Funny: all that interesting stuff you covered about Thomas Jefferson covered our American History which just happened to include HIS religion. Now why wern't we taught in school about the real person President Jefferson was? Cause it included his beliefs? We are Americans and should be taught what all our founding fathers discussed in government even if it included their beliefs or non beliefs in God.
The United States of America would never have existed if someone didn't believe in God!
”Growing Up In The Middle of American History”
By Kurt Rehmert
My home sits on Old Road Bay where the Chesapeake Bay and Pataspaco River (Baltimore Harbor) meet... It is where Francis Scott Key wrote the “Star Spangled Banner” and the British Troops landed when they went to attack Baltimore... General Ross only made it a few miles up the road when two farm boys named Wells and MacComas shot him in the head ending the battle...
As a boy my Father would take me places like Washington DC, Annapolis, Gettysburg, Antietam, Manassas, the homes of our Founding Fathers, Aberdeen Proving Grounds which has the second largest military museum in the world...
In short I grew up where America was forged into the Nation we are...
As a boy I thought everyone had a Bald Eagle sitting on a tree branch looking for fish at their house...
As a boy I thought everyone had touched the Spirit of St. Louis...
As a boy I thought everyone played on the Ramparts of Ft. McHenry...
As a boy I thought everyone had seen the Constitution...
As a boy I thought everyone I though every kid had played at “Devil’s Den” and climbed “Little Round Top”...
Now I make an offer to ALL on this board...
If ANYof you wish to see America the way I do E-mail me...
and, I didn't know we were just talking grade school here. I loved History in Senior High school.
as for how you saw America-and learned some major history- that is wonderful- I wish more people could see it like you have but unfortunately you are rare :(
I have no problem with paying for public schools as part of tax.. as long as prayer etc...is kept within your home, your church and your pvt gatherings and your privacy.
The way the founders intended it to be.
"The United States of America would never have existed if someone didn't believe in God! "
Check this out... What the father of the American Revolution has to say about that...
Without the Father of the American Revolution.... The United States of America may never have existed as we know it.. On the other hand.. there may have been one real big Canada. Oh the Horror.
Annoyed by the prospect of a massive new federal surveillance system, two researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology are celebrating the Fourth of July with a new Internet service that will let citizens create dossiers on government officials.
The system will start by offering standard background information on politicians, but then go one bold step further, by asking Internet users to submit their own intelligence reports on government officials -- reports that will be published with no effort to verify their accuracy.
"It's sort of a citizen's intelligence agency," said Chris Csikszentmihalyi, assistant professor at the MIT Media Lab.
In the United States, there is a widening gap between a citizen's ability to monitor his or her government and the government's ability to monitor a citizen. Average citizens have limited access to important government records, while available information is often illegible. Meanwhile, the government's eagerness and means to oversee a citizen's personal activity is rapidly increasing.
As the government broadens internal surveillance, and collaborates with private institutions to access data on the public, it is crucial that we maintain a symmetry of accountability. If we believe the United States should be a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people" it is of central importance to provide citizens with the power to oversee their government. At least as much effort should be spent building tools to facilitate citizens supervising their government as tools to help the government monitor individuals.
The Open Government Information Awareness suite of software tools acts as a framework for US citizens to construct and analyze a comprehensive database on our government. Modeled on recent government programs designed to consolidate information on individuals into massive databases, our system does the opposite, allowing you to scrutinize those in government. Citizens are able to explore data, track events, find patterns, and build risk profiles, all in an effort to encourage and motivate action. We like to think of it as a Citizen’s Intelligence Agency, giving people similar tools and technologies to those held by their government.
Central to GIA is its extensible model of data: Everything in its system is either an entity or a link -- a thing or a relationship. This allows the system to grow in any direction, and accommodate as-yet unimagined institutions, organizations, or threats. More information is available here.*
The best way to get started is simply by clicking around. Try looking for your elected representatives, judges in your area, or even your employer. You'll see some of the types of information available. Check back often, as the system grows quickly.
there may have been one real big Canada. Oh the Horror.
hahahaha what a thought - No Presidents just Prince Charles - thanks
There is a difference between outright teaching religions (like an hour class on it a day)which a agree with you to that extent anyway-that shouldnt be taught in schools
But I would be ok with kids being able to come to school early for prayer before school even begins (as a choice not manditory)
But it is almost impossible, goodness, the School system would have to outright cut out the whole month of December just so students don't learn about Kwanzaa, Jewish & Christian Holidays. KIDS would LOVE a whole month dedicated to 'snow days' :)
Our schools principal is Jewish and she has requested no gifts during the Christmas season. Thats fine - we still however show are gratitude to our teachers on the last day before the ChristmasWinter Break with little gifties - ie: candles. and then again at the end of the school year with flowers/plants.
But I would be ok with kids being able to come to school early for prayer before school even begins
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." - Matthew 6:5
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." - Matthew 6:6
"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." - Matthew 6:7
Funny thing about Christmas in America...It has become a 'melting pot' of many countries heritages BUT yet all boils down to Jesus in the school system.
You can have fir trees but not the actual Christmas Tree with a star, decorations and lights on anything the kids go home with, ie: school newsletter, art. NOW: Isn't the Christmas tree idea from Germany/Europe?
You can however have Poinsettias on art and newsletters and even sell them for fundraisers BUT isn't the Poinsettia from the story of Mexican heritage/story of Jesus?
Over time we have brought different cultures into Christmas making it our own - every culture carries a belief
Where do you draw the line? Religion/Faith/Beliefs/non-beliefs are who we all are
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." - Thomas Jefferson
There are people who think..Morality comes from being religious.. I can't believe that. In a way, I am glad..cause..if it werent for their religion... these folks may have been violent sinful folks... They may have not have the innate sense of fairplay and morals...that comes with being an individual.. The Self.
I watched a program that talked about John Adams thismorning. That was great- talked about how he and Jefferson did not get along for a time. Geee, I wonder why? hahahaha Actually after this broadcast I have a yearning to learn more about Adams. WoW, those love letters to his wife.
and as far as religious holidays taught in school...1/2 the holidays are based on someones religion-Halloween/Christmas/Easter/Kwanzaa/Jewish holidays- --some that are not -Memorial/Labor/New Years/Valentines/July 4th (this is debatable cause it is one of the reason besides taxes for coming to America and being free to express ourselves-which makes me think of a Madonna song ;))
I think we had a conversation regarding my name on the WOT-ODI thread long time ago... In fact..if you go to the top of the thread..within the first 100 posts..we had a conversation about it..
I think..You had it for a while... right?
:)
Here you go.
me2 "How knowledgeable are we about the rest of the world?" 7/20/02 9:48am
My EYE is actually my daughters EYE she thought she was being funny by taking a picture of her eye I thought it appropriate/funny for the time being as my avatar since I have been discussing 'watching people and big brother' over the last couple of weeks :) As if no-one thinks we can see what they are doing in the privacy of their own home...There is a camera watching YOU from behind my avatar/eye ;)hehehehe
just ask your sister, baby. i stuck my foot in my mouth in front of her on friday, and kept it there all weekend. i think its still there. so no, i'm not even gonna try this.
only for my feet, luv. only for my feet. although now that my feet have been mentioned in the context of kinky things she thinks i try with her sister......
James Madison’s “Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments” was written in 1785 in opposition to a proposal by Patrick Henry that all Virginians be taxed to support “teachers of the Christian religion.” To this day, the “Memorial and Remonstrance” remains one of the most powerful arguments against government-supported religion ever penned. This is the full text of the document. Original spelling and punctuation have been retained.
1. Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governour of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign. We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man's right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority.
That the 14th Amendment was originally passed as a narrow law for protecting civil rights and never meant to stop the states from passing their own laws that were independent from the ones passed by congress... and that when the constitution says "Congress shall make no laws...." It meant only the federal congress excluding the states and that the state legislatures can pass laws contradictory to the ones passed by congress.
This is absolute bull.. By this logic.. all 50 states can theoretically pass laws that is in violation of the first amendment... So if all 50 states pass laws prohibiting free speech and even can establish their own religion (Christianity of course)... the federal constitution has no bearing on such laws..Oh... maybe then some states like California and New York can revoke the second amendment by passing states laws to make it illegal for citizens to bare arms.... or form a Militia...tee hee....
This basically means that the States have supremacy over the Federal constitution.....
I can't imagine people are willing to shove their common sense up their ass...
ROFLMAO..
THX says.. "Of course not, and that's exactly why my children attend private school. That's why parents should have true choice. So they don't have to send their kids to public school. "
I have a better Idea. Just reduce the portion from say..Property Tax that goes to public school and let the parents decide where to send their kids.
Basically.. no more Public school. All schools will be Pvt.
The problem comes.. when you allow the Govt.. to collect your money and then expect them to distribute it to religious institutions.. Thats a NO NO.
So, if you take away that power from the Govt... then there is no conflict to begin with...unless ofcourse you feel that your religion cannot stand on its own merit that it would need the crutch of the govt.. to prop it up.. ;)
;)
THX says.. "Liberal morals (religion in my mind) is being taught this very moment in our public schools.
"
Oh..the Horror...
You mean like this one...
M&M 7/3/03 4:25pm
THX. This one is for you...
M&M 7/3/03 4:18pm
Why is this post for me?
I'm against religion in school and disagree with most "conservatives" on this issue.
I'm disgusted with the hypocrisy of my local schools. They recognize Ramadan & Hannakah at the school down the street, yet are prohibited from mentioning Christmas. They have a life sized cut-out of Gandhi, and go over his Hindu beliefs. Yet when they discuss MLK, they ignore the fact that he was first and foremost a Christian.
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Just reduce the portion from say..Property Tax that goes to public school and let the parents decide where to send their kids.
Basically.. no more Public school. All schools will be Pvt.
M&M 7/4/03 8:01am
I'm fine with that except for the fact that those that cannot afford it should also be given and education. What of those that don't own property, and therefore don't pay property tax?
The problem comes.. when you allow the Govt.. to collect your money and then expect them to distribute it to religious institutions.. Thats a NO NO.
That's not true. They do it in higher education every day. Giving taxpayer monies to religious schools is not establishment of a religion.
So, if you take away that power from the Govt... then there is no conflict to begin with...unless ofcourse you feel that your religion cannot stand on its own merit that it would need the crutch of the govt.. to prop it up.. ;)
That's not the issue. My school stands on it's own merits. My issue is that I'm currently paying twice for my childrens education. It simply shouldn't be that way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh..the Horror...
M&M 7/4/03 8:02am
Yes, the horror.
Public schools should stick to education, not moral indoctrination. When I say this, I mean from either side. For their morals may be contrary to mine, or yours.
What if in public schools they taught children that atheists were immoral devils?
Taught that homesexuals were sub human?
Taught that women were subordinate to men?
Taught that blacks were a higher form of monkeys?
Taught that if your parents don't vote for the school levy, you the student will suffer the consequences?
My issue is that I'm currently paying twice for my childrens education. It simply shouldn't be that way.
But I pay for schools when I don't have children... and now..they want to use my funds to send others kids for indoctrination of some faith..I don't care about.
If one would atleast shut up about getting free education..instead of whining about..not getting enough of their faith...in this free education..I can atleast stay quiet about it..
;)
Well.. Since.. health care (Physical health) is not an entitlement , I don't see..why mental health is any different.. It should not be an entitlement.. No more social programs.. no more Public schools...
"
First folks ask for Public school... then they want THEIR religion brought in... Like there isn't enough.. I mean , walk down some street here in Ulles. Texas. There is a church for every three houses.. these folks can't have enough.. they want to pray in taxpayers paid public schools too.. Oh..the Tyranny of the Minority... they cry.. You would think..this is Mecca or something....
"I'm disgusted with the hypocrisy of my local schools. They recognize Ramadan & Hannakah at the school down the street, yet are prohibited from mentioning Christmas. They have a life sized cut-out of Gandhi, and go over his Hindu beliefs. Yet when they discuss MLK, they ignore the fact that he was first and foremost a Christian.
"
Imagine this was Saudi Arabia... for a second.. OK
Imagine..if they taught ABOUT other religions like Judaism, Hindusim, Christianity, Jainism, Buddism etc... but are cautious about Islam..
Would that be irrational? I mean...almost all of them have had Islam shoved up their vasu every day..Wouldn't it be nice that they are NOT taught other religion but ABOUT other religion.. I feel the Saudis need to do it..
I mean.. Even if you take the worst case scenario... wouldn't that be the case here too..
Where is ones commonsense in these type of situations?
I feel...any country that has their majority of the popluation following one religion..that they ought to be taught ABOUT other religion... I wish , they would teach about Christianity in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. And keep Islam away from their Schools.
And vice versa ought to happen here ....
Claim: Alleged quote from Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
I too think its somewhat hypocritical to have Christianity be excluded from schools while celebrating others. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for learning about other religions. I think it can put Christianity into a negative light, and that many kids can be deprived of learning about it. Do it in a factual way. Don't get into morals or what is better. Approach it from a historical perspective, some tenants perhaps, celebrations and rituals involved. Growing up I could have been classified "Lutheran" or "Catholic" very loosely, but I didn't have religion. I didn't know much about Christianity or other religions. I would have liked to have known some basics about the religions though. I would want equal opportunity for all religions.
A congregation in the United States was left stunned when lightning struck a church moments after a visiting preacher asked God for a sign.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3044178.stm
Thanks for posting all that cool information-I love history
But I pay for schools when I don't have children
My brother in law has no children of his own but he see's his tax money in this way -it goes to help his nieces in school.
I have talked to people with no children who pay the tax and they have seen it as making our neighborhoods a better place - when kids in their areas are in school learning; there is less vandelizism and theft - the kids have a better chance at growing up and being better neighbors....you got a neighbor M&M? Wouldn't want to think they can't read or hold a job and sit around all day in their front yard on a broken chair throwing beer cans into a corner. They never mow their yard cause they don't have money to buy a lawnmower. Not all problems are solved with school but a better chance in life is given. If you couldn't go to school cause your parents couldn't afford to send you, imagine where you would be today if not for the help of your community.
Now, I hope you don't turn around and claim this isn't your problem.
maybe if you feel it such a horrible thing, you can try to write off the school taxes on your taxes as if you were donating back to your community ;p
I also agree with Those Med Kids: Many countries are based on some sort of religion -it is history.
Funny: all that interesting stuff you covered about Thomas Jefferson covered our American History which just happened to include HIS religion. Now why wern't we taught in school about the real person President Jefferson was? Cause it included his beliefs? We are Americans and should be taught what all our founding fathers discussed in government even if it included their beliefs or non beliefs in God.
The United States of America would never have existed if someone didn't believe in God!
"I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." - Thomas Jefferson
The Lives of America's Founding Fathers is far too Complex for Grade School...
”Growing Up In The Middle of American History”
By Kurt Rehmert
My home sits on Old Road Bay where the Chesapeake Bay and Pataspaco River (Baltimore Harbor) meet...
It is where Francis Scott Key wrote the “Star Spangled Banner” and the British Troops landed when they went to attack Baltimore...
General Ross only made it a few miles up the road when two farm boys named Wells and MacComas shot him in the head ending the battle...
As a boy my Father would take me places like Washington DC, Annapolis, Gettysburg, Antietam, Manassas, the homes of our Founding Fathers, Aberdeen Proving Grounds which has the second largest military museum in the world...
In short I grew up where America was forged into the Nation we are...
As a boy I thought everyone had a Bald Eagle sitting on a tree branch looking for fish at their house...
As a boy I thought everyone had touched the Spirit of St. Louis...
As a boy I thought everyone played on the Ramparts of Ft. McHenry...
As a boy I thought everyone had seen the Constitution...
As a boy I thought everyone I though every kid had played at “Devil’s Den” and climbed “Little Round Top”...
Now I make an offer to ALL on this board...
If ANYof you wish to see America the way I do E-mail me...
By The Way, The Bald Eagle still perches here...
KRehmertX2@aol.com
Kurt , you look like Keifer Sutherland.
and, I didn't know we were just talking grade school here.
I loved History in Senior High school.
as for how you saw America-and learned some major history- that is wonderful- I wish more people could see it like you have but unfortunately you are rare :(
Me2,
I have no problem with paying for public schools as part of tax.. as long as prayer etc...is kept within your home, your church and your pvt gatherings and your privacy.
The way the founders intended it to be.
Check this out... What the father of the American Revolution has to say about that...
M&M 9/5/02 5:36pm
Without the Father of the American Revolution.... The United States of America may never have existed as we know it.. On the other hand.. there may have been one real big Canada. Oh the Horror.
;)
http://business.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2003/07/04/website_turns_tables_on_government_officials
Annoyed by the prospect of a massive new federal surveillance system, two researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology are celebrating the Fourth of July with a new Internet service that will let citizens create dossiers on government officials.
The system will start by offering standard background information on politicians, but then go one bold step further, by asking Internet users to submit their own intelligence reports on government officials -- reports that will be published with no effort to verify their accuracy.
"It's sort of a citizen's intelligence agency," said Chris Csikszentmihalyi, assistant professor at the MIT Media Lab.
Here is that site..
http://opengov.media.mit.edu/
http://opengov.media.mit.edu/
In the United States, there is a widening gap between a citizen's ability to monitor his or her government and the government's ability to monitor a citizen. Average citizens have limited access to important government records, while available information is often illegible. Meanwhile, the government's eagerness and means to oversee a citizen's personal activity is rapidly increasing.
As the government broadens internal surveillance, and collaborates with private institutions to access data on the public, it is crucial that we maintain a symmetry of accountability. If we believe the United States should be a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people" it is of central importance to provide citizens with the power to oversee their government. At least as much effort should be spent building tools to facilitate citizens supervising their government as tools to help the government monitor individuals.
The Open Government Information Awareness suite of software tools acts as a framework for US citizens to construct and analyze a comprehensive database on our government. Modeled on recent government programs designed to consolidate information on individuals into massive databases, our system does the opposite, allowing you to scrutinize those in government. Citizens are able to explore data, track events, find patterns, and build risk profiles, all in an effort to encourage and motivate action. We like to think of it as a Citizen’s Intelligence Agency, giving people similar tools and technologies to those held by their government.
Central to GIA is its extensible model of data: Everything in its system is either an entity or a link -- a thing or a relationship. This allows the system to grow in any direction, and accommodate as-yet unimagined institutions, organizations, or threats.
More information is available here.*
The best way to get started is simply by clicking around. Try looking for your elected representatives, judges in your area, or even your employer. You'll see some of the types of information available. Check back often, as the system grows quickly.
there may have been one real big Canada. Oh the Horror.
hahahaha what a thought - No Presidents just Prince Charles - thanks
There is a difference between outright teaching religions (like an hour class on it a day)which a agree with you to that extent anyway-that shouldnt be taught in schools
But I would be ok with kids being able to come to school early for prayer before school even begins (as a choice not manditory)
But it is almost impossible, goodness, the School system would have to outright cut out the whole month of December just so students don't learn about Kwanzaa, Jewish & Christian Holidays. KIDS would LOVE a whole month dedicated to 'snow days' :)
Our schools principal is Jewish and she has requested no gifts during the Christmas season. Thats fine - we still however show are gratitude to our teachers on the last day before the
ChristmasWinter Break with little gifties - ie: candles. and then again at the end of the school year with flowers/plants."And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." - Matthew 6:5
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." - Matthew 6:6
"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." - Matthew 6:7
Funny thing about Christmas in America...It has become a 'melting pot' of many countries heritages BUT yet all boils down to Jesus in the school system.
You can have fir trees but not the actual Christmas Tree with a star, decorations and lights on anything the kids go home with, ie: school newsletter, art. NOW: Isn't the Christmas tree idea from Germany/Europe?
You can however have Poinsettias on art and newsletters and even sell them for fundraisers BUT isn't the Poinsettia from the story of Mexican heritage/story of Jesus?
Over time we have brought different cultures into Christmas making it our own - every culture carries a belief
Where do you draw the line?
Religion/Faith/Beliefs/non-beliefs are who we all are
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." - Thomas Jefferson
why do schools need to celebrate religious holidays in the first place?
crabgrass 7/6/03 10:18am
There are people who think..Morality comes from being religious.. I can't believe that. In a way, I am glad..cause..if it werent for their religion... these folks may have been violent sinful folks... They may have not have the innate sense of fairplay and morals...that comes with being an individual.. The Self.
"Religion/Faith/Beliefs/non-beliefs are who we all are "
Exactly... I am my religion...my faith..and my religion and my faith is Devil Worship.
:)
:) lol M&M
I love your name by the way
I watched a program that talked about John Adams thismorning.
That was great- talked about how he and Jefferson did not get along for a time. Geee, I wonder why? hahahaha Actually after this broadcast I have a yearning to learn more about Adams. WoW, those love letters to his wife.
and as far as religious holidays taught in school...1/2 the holidays
are based on someones religion-Halloween/Christmas/Easter/Kwanzaa/Jewish holidays-
--some that are not
-Memorial/Labor/New Years/Valentines/July 4th (this is debatable cause it is one of the reason besides taxes for coming to America and being free to express ourselves-which makes me think of a Madonna song ;))
me2 7/6/03 6:21pm
I think we had a conversation regarding my name on the WOT-ODI thread long time ago... In fact..if you go to the top of the thread..within the first 100 posts..we had a conversation about it..
I think..You had it for a while... right?
:)
Here you go.
me2 "How knowledgeable are we about the rest of the world?" 7/20/02 9:48am
not exactly- My husband signs his cards/letters to me as "me"
so I began signing as "me2"
the two of us together make M&M :)
he's the red one, I'm the green one)
I usually have a green M&M as my avatar (going back to her soon)
I donate bags of M&M's to the winners of our treasure hunts
My EYE is actually my daughters EYE
she thought she was being funny by taking a picture of her eye
I thought it appropriate/funny for the time being as my avatar since I have been discussing 'watching people and big brother' over the last couple of weeks :)
As if no-one thinks we can see what they are doing in the privacy of their own home...There is a camera watching YOU from behind my avatar/eye ;)hehehehe
me2 7/6/03 6:36pm
I was just going to ask you about that.. :)
She looks frightened..
I gotta go-we are up at the lake- 2 1/2 hours from home-St Paul Minnesota- heading back now- look forward to talking with you again :)
me2 7/6/03 6:39pm
Take Care..
I did some work for "West Group" at Eagen... for a year or so..
:)
PS: How are you doing your Internet from there? Hmm...
I usually have a green M&M as my avatar (going back to her soon)
there is a god, and he's smiling on me!
She looks frightened..
knowing her, i'm guessing that its more surprised than anything.
my mom-in-law has a computer and we get a Milacs Lake Internet company -
me2
I love your new Avatar... Mmmmmmmm...
:)
anyone else wanna explain the whole concept of me2 being my m&m to m&m, or should i do it? :)
I never did understand how she was your M&M. So you're on your own.
me2....do explain ;p
::can't wait to see how Ares sticks foot in mouth (did he ever take foot out of mouth to put back in mouth? hmmmmm)::
just ask your sister, baby. i stuck my foot in my mouth in front of her on friday, and kept it there all weekend. i think its still there. so no, i'm not even gonna try this.
I really didn't need to know the kinky things you try around my sister!
Ares has a foot fetish ;) I thought he was only into frogs ?
BTW Ares, you better hope PETA doesn't see your avatar, they'll be protesting at your house.
Most popular PETA sign seen outside of Ares' house:
DON'T FLOG THE FROG !
only for my feet, luv. only for my feet. although now that my feet have been mentioned in the context of kinky things she thinks i try with her sister......
feet and frogs----how far can YOU leap Ares?
why don't you bring those m's just a little bit closer and we'll find out.
so you obviously can't leap this far then!
you'd love to see me leap that far wouldn't you?
well if you would stop playing with that frog-
It looks like you got enough practice!