Man who rescued woman was felon who served time in Minnesota
Associated Press
Published Sep 27, 2002 MAIL28
MADISON, Ill. -- A man who heard screams and rushed into a home to save a woman from an attacker is a convicted felon who may have been risking a return to prison, police said.
Lamont Cunningham, 28, came to the aid of 43-year-old Debra Economy when a man dressed as a mail carrier attacked her. Police arrested 51-year-old William T. Ciccia of Pell Lake, Wis., and charged him with home invasion after he allegedly pretended to have a package for Economy and then jolted her repeatedly with a stun gun.
Cunningham picked up a 70-pound concrete flower pot and hit Ciccia over the head, according to police. Ciccia was bleeding but chased Cunningham from the home, and Cunningham drew a gun and fired a warning shot. Weapons possession is illegal for a felon, but he is not being charged for it.
``It's kind of hard to charge a guy if he just saved somebody's life,'' Madison Police Lt. Steve Shelby said. ``He's a hero, I would say.''
Cunningham served time in a Minnesota prison for aggravated robbery and second-degree assault. Police said he now goes by the alias Jarrett McDougle. Madison County charges are pending against McDougle for allegedly punching and choking a girlfriend last spring.
Asked whether he considers himself a hero, he said: ``In some ways. But I wouldn't really press the issue. I just helped the lady because I had to. I was in the situation.
``I still keep playing the thing in my head. It was like a movie or something.''
When police arrived at the scene, Cunningham was holding a board over Ciccia and threatening him. It took a while to sort out who was the perpetrator.
Ciccia also is charged in an Aug. 25 attempted robbery of a Palatine jewelry store. In that case, police said, he used a stun gun but the store owner fought him off with karate.
Police said Ciccia told them he meant to tie up Economy, steal jewelry and leave. He told police he stole the postal uniform from a Chicago store.
Economy was grateful for the rescue, regardless of Cunningham's record.
``People can change,'' she said. ``All I know is that if it wouldn't have been for him, I don't know what would have happened to me.''
Interesting story. Did they drive off with the guy who came to your door? It doesn't sound like they had much cause to take him away, without evidence that disproved his story, or you filing a complaint (did you ask to press charges?). I mean, there's stuff he could be charged with prolly -- trespassing, even attempted B& E I guess -- but it seems weird that police would arrest someone for coming to someone's door and asking for help.
I'm not playing civil liberties guy or anything, just wondering. If the dude was legit, getting arrested would be pretty harsh.
Did you come away at the end thinking he was legit, or that he was trying to play you somehow? Or were you unable to reach a verdict? It sounded to me like both scenarios seemed plausible. Either explanation could fit the story. From reading it, I was leaning toward "legit", but I'm naively trusting of people in general, and I didn't actually see the guy. You told the story well, though. I got a good picture of what played out. Other than not knowing what your house and yards look like, of course. I drew those in myself. (Your house has one of those chimneys that points out perpendicular to the roof.)
They did take him away and no, I don't think he was legit.
I really did try to believe him and wanted to help if it was true that the he was in danger.
However, like I said, there was no one out there that I could see and I could see out in all directions. He acted like he was about to be attacked, trying to get in the door but there was simply no one there.
Even while it was happening I figured four
five scenarios in order of what I figured at the time.
1.) He was wacked out on drugs.
2.) He was trying to get in the house to rob me.
3.) Combination of 1 & 2.
4.) He was mentally ill.
5.) He was truly in danger.
Although I don't think he was trying to get in to rob me, having three kids and a wife inside I wasn't about to take that risk.
Just shoot first next time and ask questions later..........
Ding Dong: "who is it" ?
Dominos sir I have yo...............
Blam, Blam, "Ha Ha!"
Just kidding, as Joel pointed out correctly it's a perfect example of a gun owner protecting his family or property by merely showing a weapon. Sounds to me like the guy cooled his jets a bit when he saw your Glock. It's usually all it takes. It's not the crazed wild west show some would have you believe.
Now take what happened to you the other day. Sounds to me like showing your weapon certainly didn't hurt and might have stopped him from trying to get in or do anything else.
It worked how it's supposed to and your story will never make the news. Heck as we've seen recently the story last month over in Minnenoplace. where the ol' Vet shot the guy in his house. It didn't make the Mpls. news and that was an actual documented case of a citizen using a gun to protect himself. So I'm sure your situation wouldn't either but you wonder just how many times this happens and we never hear about it.
You handled the situation well and acted calmly and cooly. Glad you and yours are o.k. My two cents on this guy, definately on drugs.
BTW there's an angle in this for you, now would be the perfect time to go buy another weapon. I doubt you'd get much resistance from the home front if you know what I mean ;)
Sounds to me like the guy cooled his jets a bit when he saw your Glock.
He did.
BTW there's an angle in this for you, now would be the perfect time to go buy another weapon. I doubt you'd get much resistance from the home front if you know what I mean ;)
Actually, the next one will be for Scribe. She doesn't like the feel of the Glock. We've looked at Beretta's & Walther PPK's but haven't test fired any yet.
I haven't been to the range in months. I gotta get my sorry butt out there!
How about a nice Ruger 357 mag. ? I have a GP100 The Mrs. doesn't go to the range very often with me but she can handle the 357 pretty well. The other advantage of a revolver is not having to worry about jams at inopportune moments. Then again 15 shots is nice to have compared to 6.
I have had bad experiences with gun owners - they are an intolerant, ornery bunch, with a perennial chip on their shoulder.
When my two boys were growing up and in the sleep-over stages, they would want to sleep over in their friends homes. I would always call the parents and ask if they had guns in the home. If guns were present , I would refuse to allow my kids to go to the sleepover - and also the houses.
I have had nasty exchanges with several gunowners over this firm policy of mine. I have been cussed at and threatened - and even had to get police protection once. Some owners have been understanding and even tried to convert me.
How about a nice Ruger 357 mag. ? I have a GP100 The Mrs. doesn't go to the range very often with me but she can handle the 357 pretty well. The other advantage of a revolver is not having to worry about jams at inopportune moments. Then again 15 shots is nice to have compared to 6.
I wouldn't care if she'd want a revolver. I prefer an auto pistol myself.
At this stage I don't know if she could handle a .357 She could barely handle my 9mm. :-)
Actually, the revolver idea might be a good one because she has a tendency to limp wrist it and have it jam up on her.
When my two boys were growing up and in the sleep-over stages, they would want to sleep over in their friends homes. I would always call the parents and ask if they had guns in the home. If guns were present , I would refuse to allow my kids to go to the sleepover - and also the houses.
Just curious, how come you never asked if they had a swimming pool, since more kids drown in pools each year than are killed by firearms. Also, did you ask them if they kept any cleaning supplies at home? More kids die in a year from poisons in the home than by firearms. Did you ask these people if they were child molestors? All right, maybe that one is a little out of line, but if you are really worried about your kids safety, what question would really be off limits?
Well I'm a gun owner but my kids will never get a hand on them.
Well I'm a gun owner and my 4 kids (ages 5-13) have already had their hands on them because I taught them about SAFETY! They have already learned to shoot as well, even though the 5 year old has only pulled the trigger while I held the firearm. He can shoot a BB gun by himself and pop balloons one right after the other, though. I also keep my firearms locked up except for....... (It's a secret and no one elses business besides my wife and I.)
.... I only have 12 gauge shot guns. This way I make sure that the robber can't come back and shot me for injuring them.
This is a legally dangerous statement to make in a public forum. If you ever did have to shoot someone to protect yourself, maybe a good lawyer would find out about this attitude of yours and make a claim that you could have just shot to wound, but you were interested in killling according to your above statement. I am not saying this is how you really feel, I am just warning you that there are people out there who want prove that all gun owners, even those who just own shotguns, are really maniacal killers who are focused on the scent of blood.
Has anyone done a study on lack of self esteem and gun ownership??
Sigmund Frued (sp?) did a study and found that people who have a fear of firearms have some psychological issues.
I have had bad experiences with gun owners - they are an intolerant, ornery bunch, with a perennial chip on their shoulder.
Since there are approximately 80 million gun owners in the US, there sure are a lot of intolerant, ornery people with perennial chips on their shoulders.
In what tone of voice did you ask the question regarding guns in these peoples's homes? Did you do it with tolerance and understanding for their feelings? Or do you feel gunowners are beneath you and asked them with a condascending tone in your voice.
If you were unknown to me, or I didn't know you very well, and you asked me that question, it would depend entirely upon how you asked it as to how I would respond to you.
Remember the old saying, "When you point your finger at someone, there are usually 3 fingers pointing right at you". Just something to keep in mind.
As far as tolerance goes, I am perfectly OK if you do not like firearms, and choose to keep your kids and family away from them. I get a little less tolerant when people imply that I am beneath them because I choose to own firearms, when they don't. I also get a little less tolerant with people who say that there should be laws preventing me from exercising my inalienable right to defend myself and my family by keeping and bearing arms. If you choose to live your life one way, no problem. When you try to force me to live the same way as you do, then we have a problem. Is this intolerance? On who's part?
I don't keep them at home. And my statement comes from the fact that I have heard where a robber has been shot and the person who shot them is sued. My guns are used entirely for outdoor sports. The reason why my kids won't touch my guns: one is 3 and the other 6. Neither is old enough to. The first time that one of my sons will is 14-16 yrs. Yes by all means they can have a bb gun but not a 12 gauge.
Just hope that no dude who would harm you and knows that you keep no firearms at home ever comes a calling. In your neighborhood, maybe that is such a remote possibility you seldom worry about it. That is your choice. Not everyone is so lucky.
If a robber was in your house, you pull a gun, and he makes for the door, yet you shoot him, he probably would sue and win. If he dies, you in a heap a trouble boy. If he is pressing an attack, you have a moral and legal right to defend yourself within your own home. Outside of your home you have a moral right, but not necessarily a legal right to defend yourself with a firearm. Depends upon where you are, and what type of firearm you use.
As for boys 3 and 6, a 12 guage is much too powerful for them. Start them off with .22's or 20 guages when they get to be about 12. BB guns starting at 5-7 years, depending upon level of maturity (it varies from kid to kid, even amongst siblings). Always, always, always, stress the 4 rules of safety.
1. All guns are always loaded, period! Treat them as such.
2. Never point the barrel of any gun at anything you do not intend to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off of the trigger until you are ready to actually fire the gun.
4. Make sure your target is safe, behind, to the sides, above, below, and any other direction you can think of.
And also remember, there are NO ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGES OF FIREARMS. There are only NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES OF FIREARMS.
As for stating I don't have a gun at home, I'm not stating it to any crooks unless you know something that I don't. This is a chatroom and only 2-4 people in here really know of where I live and that's only an approximation for area.
Currently my kids aren't ready to even have a bb-gun. Oldest has ADD and youngest, well he's too young.
As for stating I don't have a gun at home, I'm not stating it to any crooks unless you know something that I don't. This is a chatroom and only 2-4 people in here really know of where I live and that's only an approximation for area.
I understand. I was refering to other contacts you might have outside of a chat room. Sometimes we are not aware of what we say to other people. Those things can get passed on to others we don't know. It has happened before. But again, it's your castle, and I would not attempt to tell you how to guard it.
It looks like you have a great attitude towards gun safety, and that is a good thing. My kids have also learned from my hunting partners, and their grandpa, my Dad. A proud Marine with an Expert Rifleman award, plus an NRA certified firearms safety instructor. He lets nothing get by him when it comes to firearms and also firearms safety. A US Marine with a Swedish ancestry means he can be kind, but he can "put it on ya" if you screw up. Believe me, I know.
My kids learnt to swim as infants. They are taught to recognize noxious substances - that includes humans with depraved inclinations.
Guns are however a different issue - locked or not. The feeling of power that guns arouse, its use purely as an instrument of violence, mayhem and destruction and the curiosity young children have to recreate the TV violence they see makes guns totally unsavory.
I consider all gun owners latent and potential homicidal psychopaths. That there are millions of them just proves that that aberrant behavior by groups tends to be sanitized by society. Like the death penalty and war.
As for self worth and gun owners - I know that all male gun owners suffer from some form of penile insecurity and use guns as a substitute. Women gun owners have suppressed bizarre erotic cravings that attracts them to guns. Devastated psyches in short.
Look at the mayhem in Maryland - the direct result of lax gun laws.
The American claim to having a just and constitutional form of governance is subverted by the 2nd amendment and barbaric practices like the death penalty.
The security of a free state and the right of the people to lead peaceful lives is being jeopardized by lack of control of guns. Guns should be allowed only to the well regulated and judiciously licenced militia.
because we know that no crime happens where there are strict gun laws. How's things going in England now that they banned them? How's that crime rate looking over there ?
It's called the constitution, you can't pick and choose which ones you will abide by. Well never mind you can I guess.
Criminal behaviour coupled with easy access to guns and sanctioned by a cavaliar attitude of a society lulled into false views on personal liberty by extremist organizations like the NRA.
Ban guns, they'll use baseball bats, bricks, & metal pipes.
No they'll still get guns on the black market. Take a look at England.
Problem is Naradar. We have hundreds of gun laws on the books. The shooting today at the school is a perfect example. He was already breaking about 10 laws in doing what he did. If guns were completely outlawed or banned he'd be able to get one. Funny thing about criminals they don't obey laws. The law is used as a deterrent but a guy that's willing to kill an innocent person obviously has little regard for the law. So your argument about lax laws has zip to do with it.
false, specious and merely taunting. I selected to live here in the US because I have empathy for its value system. With my educational skills I had my pick of nations to migrate to. I decided to bestow on the US the honor of having me and my progeny.
That does not mean I play the part of the supine and pusillanimous immigrant without opinions. My aim is to restore a semblance of humanity to the Neanderthals around me!!
False? Have you read what you say about this country and it's people?
Perhaps taunting but I don't believe it was deceptive. I thought it obvious what I was getting at. It was certainly valid given your obvious dislike for this country and it's people.
I selected to live here in the US because I have empathy for its value system.
That's kind of you but, why so much more empathy for our values over your home country? Or any other country for that matter?
With my educational skills I had my pick of nations to migrate to.
So, why the U.S.?
I decided to bestow on the US the honor of having me and my progeny.
Not to offend but, this country is full of the likes of you (as with me). Truth be told, you're cheaper to hire than your American counterpart.
Regarding your progeny, I hope they don't grow up to have the bitterness towards this country that you do. As a foreigner, if you have been treated unkindly by my fellow citizens, I apologize. I hope your children don't have to endure the same.
I won't pretend there's not bias, ignorance, hatred, racism..... in this country. However, I don't believe it to be the norm and I certainly don't believe it to be worse here than in your home country.
That does not mean I play the part of the supine and pusillanimous immigrant without opinions.
Has anyone asked you to? I can't speak for your everyday life but, in here it's you that's been the constant aggressor.
My aim is to restore a semblance of humanity to the Neanderthals around me!!
No need to come here, you could have stayed home and done that.
Now, I truly don't understand your contempt for this country. I don't understand why you would stay here if it is so horrible.
All of this being said, admittedly it's not perfect here. I would offer that it's the best there is to offer. You won't find boatloads of people trying to leave to go elsewhere.
at the outset, I find it strange that you do not exhort others who you disagree with to pack up and go back. A tinge of racism here old chap? Remember, I do have a country to go back to - unlike you scum who have long since lost your anchor.
empathy for our values over your home country
more of the same old tired my country right or wrong jingoism. Let me educate you adrift Americans - the reason this nation has achieved preeminent stature is because it has allowed the blend of the culture of immigrants with a basic set of inalienable tenents that form the foundations of this country. The combination is what elevates - an excess of one would have rendered it no better than the Caucasian enclaves of Europe from which the original immigrants fled!!
So, why the U.S.?
you're cheaper to hire than your American counterpart
You are entitled to your petty jabs - but I came here decades ago when the H1B was non-existent. Though sponsored by my employer, I breezed in not as a desperate job seeker but under the Extraordinary Ability in the sciences, arts, education, business category. Look up your INS site for qualifications. My company ,which is international has attempted this for only 2 people as far as I know. Me and another Chinese person. And we do not come cheap.
I can't speak for your everyday life but, in here it's you that's been the constant aggressor.
you betcha - I take no prisoners and have no qualms about kicking between the legs. Another American trait I admire and adhere to.
I truly don't understand your contempt for this country
the contempt is for the misguided value systems I rail against. Ironic , that in other circles I am accused of being a US sycophant. Fuck all you jingoists anyway - I rant against what I perceive as heinous.
You won't find boatloads of people trying to leave to go elsewhere.
remember Nam and the hordes that fled to Canada? The situation has to get morally repugnant here for folks to flee. With moral values being in a state of flux, motivation for a similar exodus ceases.
You are burning the messanger at the stake old chap - for some reason I inferred you were composed of more benign stuff.
Now go stroke your gun ( or is it a rifle) and feel the manhood rush thru you.
Most students realize that the "It's ALL the union's fault" crapola is just that, Crap.
Students shouldn't even be involved in this issue. They don't know squat nor do they fund squat.
Teachers & their unions brainwash these kids into thinking "If we don't get this referendum passed, you're not going to have gym class anymore. You won't be able to go to the Art Institute for the 5th time this year. They will make you eat nuclear waste for lunch..........". Teachers are using kids for their own means, plain and simple.
and I bet that there isn't anyone in here that can post even one copy of such "Propaganda" for us to actually see.
Well, during the 2000 referendum I scanned one of them and e-mailed it off to Joe Soucheray. I'll see if I still have it. I don't think I do though because my PC crashed and I had to wipe it clean and reinstall everything.
And remember all those "Vote Yes to St Paul Kids" leaf bags from 2000? Where do you think those came from? The teachers & administration sent them home with the kids in their backpacks. Is that proof enough?
My kids brought home LOTS MORE fund-raising shit from the Private High Schools, than I EVER saw from Public Schools...of ANY kind.
Of course you did. Private schools aren't Government sponsored nor can they rake in the cash every other year by raising taxes.
SPAFF, at Cretin where they send the KIDS out, door to door, to raise their millions, which now also helps go to paying the Legal Fees of Attorneys who are representing the child-molesting Teachers and Priests of the Catholic Schools, in COURT?
That's bullshit. Provide me some proof of that outrageous claim. My kids do the marathon and sell candy, all the money goes directly to the school.
Besides, you don't think Public Schools have lawyers representing them?
Every DIME you pay to your Catholic School, can be re-directed to pay for those same abominations.
More bullshit. As a matter of fact, Church donations sponor a great deal of tuition at Catholic schools. Once again I'd like some proof of your outrageous claim.
But No, the UNIONS and Administrations and Teachers of those "PUBLIC SCHOOLS" are the REAL Demons...
I didn't say they were demons, I said they were wrong for using kids for their own means. I stand by that statement.
The money the school kids collect on their marathon, candy sales, bake sales.... stays with the school.
As a matter of fact, as I stated earlier, it's the exact opposite. Monies from the collection plate go to help with tuition for the school, not the other way around.
As for the rest of your rant, I don't know what the hell that has to do with anything we're talking about.
The fact of the matter is, teachers, unions, administration are using public school kids as a means to an end.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/3330148.html
Man who rescued woman was felon who served time in Minnesota
Associated Press
Published Sep 27, 2002 MAIL28
MADISON, Ill. -- A man who heard screams and rushed into a home to save a woman from an attacker is a convicted felon who may have been risking a return to prison, police said.
Lamont Cunningham, 28, came to the aid of 43-year-old Debra Economy when a man dressed as a mail carrier attacked her. Police arrested 51-year-old William T. Ciccia of Pell Lake, Wis., and charged him with home invasion after he allegedly pretended to have a package for Economy and then jolted her repeatedly with a stun gun.
Cunningham picked up a 70-pound concrete flower pot and hit Ciccia over the head, according to police. Ciccia was bleeding but chased Cunningham from the home, and Cunningham drew a gun and fired a warning shot. Weapons possession is illegal for a felon, but he is not being charged for it.
``It's kind of hard to charge a guy if he just saved somebody's life,'' Madison Police Lt. Steve Shelby said. ``He's a hero, I would say.''
Cunningham served time in a Minnesota prison for aggravated robbery and second-degree assault. Police said he now goes by the alias Jarrett McDougle. Madison County charges are pending against McDougle for allegedly punching and choking a girlfriend last spring.
Asked whether he considers himself a hero, he said: ``In some ways. But I wouldn't really press the issue. I just helped the lady because I had to. I was in the situation.
``I still keep playing the thing in my head. It was like a movie or something.''
When police arrived at the scene, Cunningham was holding a board over Ciccia and threatening him. It took a while to sort out who was the perpetrator.
``You've got a bloody mailman,'' Shelby said. ``You don't know what's going on.''
Ciccia also is charged in an Aug. 25 attempted robbery of a Palatine jewelry store. In that case, police said, he used a stun gun but the store owner fought him off with karate.
Police said Ciccia told them he meant to tie up Economy, steal jewelry and leave. He told police he stole the postal uniform from a Chicago store.
Economy was grateful for the rescue, regardless of Cunningham's record.
``People can change,'' she said. ``All I know is that if it wouldn't have been for him, I don't know what would have happened to me.''
I find this to be very interesting as well.
Great story, Joel.
Interesting story. Did they drive off with the guy who came to your door? It doesn't sound like they had much cause to take him away, without evidence that disproved his story, or you filing a complaint (did you ask to press charges?). I mean, there's stuff he could be charged with prolly -- trespassing, even attempted B& E I guess -- but it seems weird that police would arrest someone for coming to someone's door and asking for help.
I'm not playing civil liberties guy or anything, just wondering. If the dude was legit, getting arrested would be pretty harsh.
Did you come away at the end thinking he was legit, or that he was trying to play you somehow? Or were you unable to reach a verdict? It sounded to me like both scenarios seemed plausible. Either explanation could fit the story. From reading it, I was leaning toward "legit", but I'm naively trusting of people in general, and I didn't actually see the guy. You told the story well, though. I got a good picture of what played out. Other than not knowing what your house and yards look like, of course. I drew those in myself. (Your house has one of those chimneys that points out perpendicular to the roof.)
They did take him away and no, I don't think he was legit.
I really did try to believe him and wanted to help if it was true that the he was in danger.
However, like I said, there was no one out there that I could see and I could see out in all directions. He acted like he was about to be attacked, trying to get in the door but there was simply no one there.
Even while it was happening I figured
fourfive scenarios in order of what I figured at the time.
1.) He was wacked out on drugs.
2.) He was trying to get in the house to rob me.
3.) Combination of 1 & 2.
4.) He was mentally ill.
5.) He was truly in danger.
Although I don't think he was trying to get in to rob me, having three kids and a wife inside I wasn't about to take that risk.
I guess it just didn't feel right.
You're right, I added #3 in.
THX,
Just shoot first next time and ask questions later..........
Ding Dong: "who is it" ?
Dominos sir I have yo...............
Blam, Blam, "Ha Ha!"
Just kidding, as Joel pointed out correctly it's a perfect example of a gun owner protecting his family or property by merely showing a weapon. Sounds to me like the guy cooled his jets a bit when he saw your Glock. It's usually all it takes. It's not the crazed wild west show some would have you believe.
Now take what happened to you the other day. Sounds to me like showing your weapon certainly didn't hurt and might have stopped him from trying to get in or do anything else.
It worked how it's supposed to and your story will never make the news. Heck as we've seen recently the story last month over in Minnenoplace. where the ol' Vet shot the guy in his house. It didn't make the Mpls. news and that was an actual documented case of a citizen using a gun to protect himself. So I'm sure your situation wouldn't either but you wonder just how many times this happens and we never hear about it.
You handled the situation well and acted calmly and cooly. Glad you and yours are o.k. My two cents on this guy, definately on drugs.
BTW there's an angle in this for you, now would be the perfect time to go buy another weapon. I doubt you'd get much resistance from the home front if you know what I mean ;)
Sounds to me like the guy cooled his jets a bit when he saw your Glock.
He did.
BTW there's an angle in this for you, now would be the perfect time to go buy another weapon. I doubt you'd get much resistance from the home front if you know what I mean ;)
Actually, the next one will be for Scribe. She doesn't like the feel of the Glock. We've looked at Beretta's & Walther PPK's but haven't test fired any yet.
I haven't been to the range in months. I gotta get my sorry butt out there!
THX,
How about a nice Ruger 357 mag. ? I have a GP100 The Mrs. doesn't go to the range very often with me but she can handle the 357 pretty well. The other advantage of a revolver is not having to worry about jams at inopportune moments. Then again 15 shots is nice to have compared to 6.
Has anyone done a study on lack of self esteem and gun ownership??
Has anyone done a study on lack of self esteem and gun ownership??
Does anyone care what level of self esteem gun owners may have? I don't.
I have had bad experiences with gun owners - they are an intolerant, ornery bunch, with a perennial chip on their shoulder.
When my two boys were growing up and in the sleep-over stages, they would want to sleep over in their friends homes. I would always call the parents and ask if they had guns in the home. If guns were present , I would refuse to allow my kids to go to the sleepover - and also the houses.
I have had nasty exchanges with several gunowners over this firm policy of mine. I have been cussed at and threatened - and even had to get police protection once. Some owners have been understanding and even tried to convert me.
I have had bad experiences with gun owners - they are an intolerant, ornery bunch, with a perennial chip on their shoulder.
Really?
Take a read of your posts.
How about a nice Ruger 357 mag. ? I have a GP100 The Mrs. doesn't go to the range very often with me but she can handle the 357 pretty well. The other advantage of a revolver is not having to worry about jams at inopportune moments. Then again 15 shots is nice to have compared to 6.
I wouldn't care if she'd want a revolver. I prefer an auto pistol myself.
At this stage I don't know if she could handle a .357 She could barely handle my 9mm. :-)
Actually, the revolver idea might be a good one because she has a tendency to limp wrist it and have it jam up on her.
I have had bad experiences with gun owners - they are an intolerant, ornery bunch, with a perennial chip on their shoulder.
Well I don't own any guns!!!! I guess there goes that theory!!!! Or maybe I should get a few!!!!!
Just curious, how come you never asked if they had a swimming pool, since more kids drown in pools each year than are killed by firearms. Also, did you ask them if they kept any cleaning supplies at home? More kids die in a year from poisons in the home than by firearms. Did you ask these people if they were child molestors? All right, maybe that one is a little out of line, but if you are really worried about your kids safety, what question would really be off limits?
Well I'm a gun owner and my 4 kids (ages 5-13) have already had their hands on them because I taught them about SAFETY! They have already learned to shoot as well, even though the 5 year old has only pulled the trigger while I held the firearm. He can shoot a BB gun by himself and pop balloons one right after the other, though. I also keep my firearms locked up except for....... (It's a secret and no one elses business besides my wife and I.)
This is a legally dangerous statement to make in a public forum. If you ever did have to shoot someone to protect yourself, maybe a good lawyer would find out about this attitude of yours and make a claim that you could have just shot to wound, but you were interested in killling according to your above statement. I am not saying this is how you really feel, I am just warning you that there are people out there who want prove that all gun owners, even those who just own shotguns, are really maniacal killers who are focused on the scent of blood.
Sigmund Frued (sp?) did a study and found that people who have a fear of firearms have some psychological issues.
Since there are approximately 80 million gun owners in the US, there sure are a lot of intolerant, ornery people with perennial chips on their shoulders.
In what tone of voice did you ask the question regarding guns in these peoples's homes? Did you do it with tolerance and understanding for their feelings? Or do you feel gunowners are beneath you and asked them with a condascending tone in your voice.
If you were unknown to me, or I didn't know you very well, and you asked me that question, it would depend entirely upon how you asked it as to how I would respond to you.
Remember the old saying, "When you point your finger at someone, there are usually 3 fingers pointing right at you". Just something to keep in mind.
As far as tolerance goes, I am perfectly OK if you do not like firearms, and choose to keep your kids and family away from them. I get a little less tolerant when people imply that I am beneath them because I choose to own firearms, when they don't. I also get a little less tolerant with people who say that there should be laws preventing me from exercising my inalienable right to defend myself and my family by keeping and bearing arms. If you choose to live your life one way, no problem. When you try to force me to live the same way as you do, then we have a problem. Is this intolerance? On who's part?
Just hope that no dude who would harm you and knows that you keep no firearms at home ever comes a calling. In your neighborhood, maybe that is such a remote possibility you seldom worry about it. That is your choice. Not everyone is so lucky.
If a robber was in your house, you pull a gun, and he makes for the door, yet you shoot him, he probably would sue and win. If he dies, you in a heap a trouble boy. If he is pressing an attack, you have a moral and legal right to defend yourself within your own home. Outside of your home you have a moral right, but not necessarily a legal right to defend yourself with a firearm. Depends upon where you are, and what type of firearm you use.
As for boys 3 and 6, a 12 guage is much too powerful for them. Start them off with .22's or 20 guages when they get to be about 12. BB guns starting at 5-7 years, depending upon level of maturity (it varies from kid to kid, even amongst siblings). Always, always, always, stress the 4 rules of safety.
1. All guns are always loaded, period! Treat them as such.
2. Never point the barrel of any gun at anything you do not intend to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off of the trigger until you are ready to actually fire the gun.
4. Make sure your target is safe, behind, to the sides, above, below, and any other direction you can think of.
And also remember, there are NO ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGES OF FIREARMS. There are only NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES OF FIREARMS.
As for stating I don't have a gun at home, I'm not stating it to any crooks unless you know something that I don't. This is a chatroom and only 2-4 people in here really know of where I live and that's only an approximation for area.
Currently my kids aren't ready to even have a bb-gun. Oldest has ADD and youngest, well he's too young.
I understand. I was refering to other contacts you might have outside of a chat room. Sometimes we are not aware of what we say to other people. Those things can get passed on to others we don't know. It has happened before. But again, it's your castle, and I would not attempt to tell you how to guard it.
It looks like you have a great attitude towards gun safety, and that is a good thing. My kids have also learned from my hunting partners, and their grandpa, my Dad. A proud Marine with an Expert Rifleman award, plus an NRA certified firearms safety instructor. He lets nothing get by him when it comes to firearms and also firearms safety. A US Marine with a Swedish ancestry means he can be kind, but he can "put it on ya" if you screw up. Believe me, I know.
JOEL LARSON 10/4/02 12:40pm-
My kids learnt to swim as infants. They are taught to recognize noxious substances - that includes humans with depraved inclinations.
Guns are however a different issue - locked or not. The feeling of power that guns arouse, its use purely as an instrument of violence, mayhem and destruction and the curiosity young children have to recreate the TV violence they see makes guns totally unsavory.
I consider all gun owners latent and potential homicidal psychopaths. That there are millions of them just proves that that aberrant behavior by groups tends to be sanitized by society. Like the death penalty and war.
As for self worth and gun owners - I know that all male gun owners suffer from some form of penile insecurity and use guns as a substitute. Women gun owners have suppressed bizarre erotic cravings that attracts them to guns. Devastated psyches in short.
let the frothing at the mouth begin!!
Naradar has issues.
That Naradar cracks me up.
He/she is just trying to get a rise out of us gun owners.
Ignore the ignoramous.
Look at the mayhem in Maryland - the direct result of lax gun laws.
The American claim to having a just and constitutional form of governance is subverted by the 2nd amendment and barbaric practices like the death penalty.
The security of a free state and the right of the people to lead peaceful lives is being jeopardized by lack of control of guns. Guns should be allowed only to the well regulated and judiciously licenced militia.
Yes Naradar,
because we know that no crime happens where there are strict gun laws. How's things going in England now that they banned them? How's that crime rate looking over there ?
It's called the constitution, you can't pick and choose which ones you will abide by. Well never mind you can I guess.
Look at the mayhem in Maryland - the direct result of lax gun laws.
No, that would be the direct result of criminial behavior.
Criminal behaviour coupled with easy access to guns and sanctioned by a cavaliar attitude of a society lulled into false views on personal liberty by extremist organizations like the NRA.
You're partly right.
Thing is, banning guns won't solve anything.
Ban guns and they'll use baseball bats, bricks, & metal pipes.
Naradar,
Why do you live in this country?
You don't appear to think much of it.
No they'll still get guns on the black market. Take a look at England.
Problem is Naradar. We have hundreds of gun laws on the books. The shooting today at the school is a perfect example. He was already breaking about 10 laws in doing what he did. If guns were completely outlawed or banned he'd be able to get one. Funny thing about criminals they don't obey laws. The law is used as a deterrent but a guy that's willing to kill an innocent person obviously has little regard for the law. So your argument about lax laws has zip to do with it.
THX 1138 10/7/02 4:18pm-
false, specious and merely taunting. I selected to live here in the US because I have empathy for its value system. With my educational skills I had my pick of nations to migrate to. I decided to bestow on the US the honor of having me and my progeny.
That does not mean I play the part of the supine and pusillanimous immigrant without opinions. My aim is to restore a semblance of humanity to the Neanderthals around me!!
And thank goodness you did.
false, specious and merely taunting.
False? Have you read what you say about this country and it's people?
Perhaps taunting but I don't believe it was deceptive. I thought it obvious what I was getting at. It was certainly valid given your obvious dislike for this country and it's people.
I selected to live here in the US because I have empathy for its value system.
That's kind of you but, why so much more empathy for our values over your home country? Or any other country for that matter?
With my educational skills I had my pick of nations to migrate to.
So, why the U.S.?
I decided to bestow on the US the honor of having me and my progeny.
Not to offend but, this country is full of the likes of you (as with me). Truth be told, you're cheaper to hire than your American counterpart.
Regarding your progeny, I hope they don't grow up to have the bitterness towards this country that you do. As a foreigner, if you have been treated unkindly by my fellow citizens, I apologize. I hope your children don't have to endure the same.
I won't pretend there's not bias, ignorance, hatred, racism..... in this country. However, I don't believe it to be the norm and I certainly don't believe it to be worse here than in your home country.
That does not mean I play the part of the supine and pusillanimous immigrant without opinions.
Has anyone asked you to? I can't speak for your everyday life but, in here it's you that's been the constant aggressor.
My aim is to restore a semblance of humanity to the Neanderthals around me!!
No need to come here, you could have stayed home and done that.
Now, I truly don't understand your contempt for this country. I don't understand why you would stay here if it is so horrible.
All of this being said, admittedly it's not perfect here. I would offer that it's the best there is to offer. You won't find boatloads of people trying to leave to go elsewhere.
THX 1138 10/7/02 7:13pm
at the outset, I find it strange that you do not exhort others who you disagree with to pack up and go back. A tinge of racism here old chap? Remember, I do have a country to go back to - unlike you scum who have long since lost your anchor.
empathy for our values over your home country
more of the same old tired my country right or wrong jingoism. Let me educate you adrift Americans - the reason this nation has achieved preeminent stature is because it has allowed the blend of the culture of immigrants with a basic set of inalienable tenents that form the foundations of this country. The combination is what elevates - an excess of one would have rendered it no better than the Caucasian enclaves of Europe from which the original immigrants fled!!
So, why the U.S.?
you're cheaper to hire than your American counterpart
You are entitled to your petty jabs - but I came here decades ago when the H1B was non-existent. Though sponsored by my employer, I breezed in not as a desperate job seeker but under the Extraordinary Ability in the sciences, arts, education, business category. Look up your INS site for qualifications. My company ,which is international has attempted this for only 2 people as far as I know. Me and another Chinese person. And we do not come cheap.
I can't speak for your everyday life but, in here it's you that's been the constant aggressor.
you betcha - I take no prisoners and have no qualms about kicking between the legs. Another American trait I admire and adhere to.
I truly don't understand your contempt for this country
the contempt is for the misguided value systems I rail against. Ironic , that in other circles I am accused of being a US sycophant. Fuck all you jingoists anyway - I rant against what I perceive as heinous.
You won't find boatloads of people trying to leave to go elsewhere.
remember Nam and the hordes that fled to Canada? The situation has to get morally repugnant here for folks to flee. With moral values being in a state of flux, motivation for a similar exodus ceases.
You are burning the messanger at the stake old chap - for some reason I inferred you were composed of more benign stuff.
Now go stroke your gun ( or is it a rifle) and feel the manhood rush thru you.
Have a nice day, Naradar.
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthtribune/2002/11/16/news/opinion/4534467.htm
Taking away hunters' and targeteers' guns?
That isn't where government's threat to our liberty lies.
Read this piece on what happened to entirely peaceful protesters when Cheney visited the Duluth area.
Great article! My favorite line is the second sentence:
"School is not the place for one-sided partisan politics, they say."
I totally agree, that's why I am glad Cheney came to talk about our side. Students deserve an opposing view from what the teacher's union puts out.
Most students realize that the "It's ALL the union's fault" crapola is just that, Crap.
Students shouldn't even be involved in this issue. They don't know squat nor do they fund squat.
Teachers & their unions brainwash these kids into thinking "If we don't get this referendum passed, you're not going to have gym class anymore. You won't be able to go to the Art Institute for the 5th time this year. They will make you eat nuclear waste for lunch..........". Teachers are using kids for their own means, plain and simple.
The shit that used to come home in my pre-schoolers backpack.
That's my fucking proof!
Not only do they send that bullshit home in my kids backpack, they use my fucking tax dollars to pay for those stupid ass flyers.
It should be illegal.
I don't know exactly what you're asking but I'll say this.
I know plenty of highly educated idiots.
Book knowledge is totally different that wisdom or simply common sense.
Where did I insult the students?
They don't know shit about such things. It's not an insult, it's the truth.
That's why the teachers shouldn't use them as pawns in their little games.
So you approve of this behavior on the part of teachers, their unions, and the administration?
You approve of them spoon feeding your children propoganda?
Oh, that's right, you agree with it so it's ok.
"By any means necessary".
and I bet that there isn't anyone in here that can post even one copy of such "Propaganda" for us to actually see.
Well, during the 2000 referendum I scanned one of them and e-mailed it off to Joe Soucheray. I'll see if I still have it. I don't think I do though because my PC crashed and I had to wipe it clean and reinstall everything.
And remember all those "Vote Yes to St Paul Kids" leaf bags from 2000? Where do you think those came from? The teachers & administration sent them home with the kids in their backpacks. Is that proof enough?
My kids brought home LOTS MORE fund-raising shit from the Private High Schools, than I EVER saw from Public Schools...of ANY kind.
Of course you did. Private schools aren't Government sponsored nor can they rake in the cash every other year by raising taxes.
SPAFF, at Cretin where they send the KIDS out, door to door, to raise their millions, which now also helps go to paying the Legal Fees of Attorneys who are representing the child-molesting Teachers and Priests of the Catholic Schools, in COURT?
That's bullshit. Provide me some proof of that outrageous claim. My kids do the marathon and sell candy, all the money goes directly to the school.
Besides, you don't think Public Schools have lawyers representing them?
Every DIME you pay to your Catholic School, can be re-directed to pay for those same abominations.
More bullshit. As a matter of fact, Church donations sponor a great deal of tuition at Catholic schools. Once again I'd like some proof of your outrageous claim.
But No, the UNIONS and Administrations and Teachers of those "PUBLIC SCHOOLS" are the REAL Demons...
I didn't say they were demons, I said they were wrong for using kids for their own means. I stand by that statement.
fold wrote: My kids were NEVER spoon-fed ANY propaganda.
If you talked to them, fold, they were being spoon fed propaganda. That is all you know.
You don't know what you're talking about.
The money the school kids collect on their marathon, candy sales, bake sales.... stays with the school.
As a matter of fact, as I stated earlier, it's the exact opposite. Monies from the collection plate go to help with tuition for the school, not the other way around.
As for the rest of your rant, I don't know what the hell that has to do with anything we're talking about.
The fact of the matter is, teachers, unions, administration are using public school kids as a means to an end.