You would be surprised at what goes on in our country. There is undescribable things done to women right out in the open streets. The younger, the better seems to be the thought. We need an honorable society like yours to come over here and straighten us out.
</sarcasm>
Here is a site that provides a wealth of documentation concerning the Israeli state terrorism that has been routinely, massively inflicted upon the Palestinians during more than three decades of brutal occupation.
I ask you, especially, to check out the links of progressive Israeli and Jewish groups that oppose what's being done in their name.
Westerners and espacially American are more worried about muslim women then muslims women themselves. here in our culture, society and religion most of the women are more happy then women in US, they feel more comfortable, protection and respect then women in western world. they don't need the help of those western women who even don't know what the respect of women is! these western women think that having sex with more man means they are more respectable :-) or if they can open more of their body mean they are more liberate and free. The kind of 'leberation' and 'freedom' these women are enjoying in their society are benefiting more to the men of their society then them.
There is now an Unmoderated Forum in the Middle East Forum!!?? The other one was a haven for the Jewish extremists whose idea of retribution for the holocaust is to perpetuate the same on the Palestinians. Acolytes of Adolf Sharon!
More innocent Palestinians die - and it galls me my tax money was used to murder them
They died when a missile fire from a helicopter struck and destroyed Mr. Deif's green Mercedes, leaving a wreckage of body parts, smashed automobiles and shattered windows.
NYT report. Using helicopters and missiles in suburban areas teeming with civilians?? Iraq's so-dumb-insane did the same to his own people and to Kurds. Milosovic did this in Kosovo. The US and NATO should be bombing Israel - not making plans to take out so-dumb-insane.
Naradar, I really hope Israel does have a full out war with the Palestinians. That will solve the problem because there will be very few of them left. The Palestinains are instigating this and anyone that isn't biased knows that.
You responded with "You are espousing Hitler's methods and tactics" to my statement "The Palestinains are instigating this and anyone that isn't biased knows that.' That tells me that if I had any doubt about your bias it has been fully and completely removed.
You are such an EXTREMIST, Naradar. I have no more fondness for Israel than I do for say Brazil or France. My opinion is that Truman should not have recognized Israel in 1948. But Israel has been around awhile now and they have a right to self defense. I have no desire to see the Palestinians killed but if they persist in the terror they must pay the consequences. If you can still equate that attitude with Hitler then you know where you can go.
That is my position also. I have stated that here before. I believe that Israel should exist - but confined to the pre-1967 borders. All settlements must be disbanded and settlers pushed into the dead sea with boulders tied around their necks. Palestine also has a right to exist - along the lines of the Clinton deal rejected by Arafat. Jerusalem should be an independent city-state - both Israel and Palestine should keep their dirty paws off it.
I do not want any more of my tax money subsidizing Israeli excesses. And if Israel can use tanks, missiles and terror against the Palestinians - then the helpless Palestininans should have the right to retaliate with their only powerful weapon - suicide bombers.
I do not want any more of my tax money subsidizing Israeli excesses.
I would probably agree, do you also think we should stop sending your tax money to the Palestinians as well ?
And if Israel can use tanks, missiles and terror against the Palestinians - then the helpless Palestininans should have the right to retaliate with their only powerful weapon - suicide bombers.
Yea and ifthe palestinians had them I'm sure they wouldn't use them.
It's also a lie to say they don't have powerful weapons. They have Ak's, Kalishnikov's, grenades, RPG's, Shoulder fired anti aircraft weapons and ALOT of explosives, They could target the soilders but don't, they'd rather tagrget kids going to a Seder celebration or some innocent mother eating pizza.
Luv2Fly 9/27/02 11:56am- we hardly give any money to Palestine. The Europeans do. I would support more nation building - along the lines of Afghanistan - for Palestine after it comes into being.
Suicide bombing was really started by the Tamil terrorists of Sri Lanka in the early 80's ( By the way I am a Tamil!!). The Palestinians adopted it only recently - long after even the intifada commenced. It was NOT their choice - they were driven to it by the extremism of Adolf Sharon.
Israel has a well trained armed force - as efficient as what the nations of the West have. They have a flourishing armaments and weapons export industry. They even sell to arch enemies of the US - like China. The avaracious nature of Jews is well known and documented.
The Palestinians are a ragtag bunch of teenagers and women - facing a world class power.
Suicide bombing was really started by the Tamil terrorists of Sri Lanka in the early 80's ( By the way I am a Tamil!!). The Palestinians adopted it only recently - long after even the intifada commenced. It was NOT their choice - they were driven to it by the extremism of Adolf Sharon.
The bombings and terrorism were going on long before Sharon was in power, nice try.
The Palestinians are a ragtag bunch of teenagers and women
Yea, who intentionally kill women and children. What a brave bunch.
True after the formation of Israel and till the Oslo accord. After that, and especially after the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin - by a jewish zealot of the same ilk as those in power today - Israel has been the aggressor. The settlements are an example - mostly by a bunch of New York fat cats trucked in and subsidised to satisfy the expansionist aims of the right wing Jewish goons.
I see no difference between Adolf Sharon and so-dumb-insane of Iraq.
Perhaps we could get Djibouti to like us if we legalized clitorectomies for little girls. America is fighting for its survival and the Democrats are obsessing over why barbarians hate us.
Instead of obsessing over why angry primitives hate Americans, a more fruitful area for Democrats to examine might be why Americans are beginning to hate Democrats. Â Â
I ceased being a democrat after Clinton - voted for that sob twice. Switched to Nader in the last - and am contemptuous of all politicians these days.
Ann Coulter perhaps did have some form of clitoral circumcision that has so traumatized her that she has transformed into a shrill witch – she reminds of the 3 witches in Macbeth. The mindless gorgon does not realize that among the primitives she derides are most of the Europeans. As for Americans hating the Democrats – wishful thinking. For the political system here to change some form of national revulsion against one or both parties must occur. I do not see that happening.
Keep apologizing for them Naradar, it's fitting---Luv2Fly
there is no issue of apologizing! Israel is killing innocent palestinian women and children since 1948 and palestinian started it just 2 years before b'coz they had left no choice but to give the same pain to Israelis what they are facing since last 50 years Palestinian have the legetimite right to kill Israeli women and children untill Israel stop killing innocent Palestinian women and children! its called tit for tat
You keep justifying Israel's abnormal existance and brutality you american fit for this :-)
Naradar, I really hope Israel does have a full out war with the Palestinians---jethro
It can only be expected by a coward country Like Israel who have no guts to fight with its competent malitry and has become habitual of killing innocent women, children and unarmed people!
First povide weaponse like helis, jets and tanks to palestinan and then dare for war and then see what happens to Israel! :-)
.....The struggle in the Middle East is not now and has never been about land. Israel occupies a miniscule 1% of the Arab Middle East and less than 10% of the entire Palestine Mandate, which was not even a political entity - let alone a nation, when the Jews' rights were granted. It was just a "mandate" carved by the British out of the Turkish empire after the First World War, and then allotted 90% to the Palestinian Arabs and 10% to the Jews........In 1949, Jordan annexed the West Bank - that is, the entire territory that is allegedly in dispute -- and held it for 18 long years up to, and until, the 1967 Arab war against Israel........Not once in all those 18 years was there complaint from the Palestinians or their "liberation" organization or the other Arab states about the injustice done to the inhabitants of the West Bank. Not once was there an outcry that Jordan had annexed the Palestine "nation." ......... being "Palestinian" is a remote afterthought inspired by their hatred of the Jews.
Yea but you keep doing it with your "but they had no choice B.S.
Israel is killing innocent palestinian women and children since 1948 and palestinian started it just 2 years before b'coz they had left no choice but to give the same pain to Israelis what they are facing since last 50 years Palestinian have the legetimite right to kill Israeli women and children untill Israel stop killing innocent Palestinian women and children! its called tit for tat
So they have only been doing it for 2 years ? I'm sure you have proof to back up your ridicolous statement which is an outright lie.
It's called tit for tat ? O.K if you want to go down that road the Isralies could do alot more if they wanted. They could remove every Palestinian from the area with the power that they have. They haven't. The Palestinians have stated on more than one occasion that they don't think Israel has a right to even exist and yet the Isralies should negotiate ?
Here's the thing Naeem. As recently as a few months ago I supported the Palestinian cause or was nuetral and questioned our support of Israel. I no longer do, and I am not alone in this. The average person who votes in this country probably would have questioned it as well. That's changing and any admin that gets elected will have overwhelming support by our people to continue to help Israel. Why you may ask ? Because like me, most people can see that there is a difference and that terrorism should never be rewarded. They are losing the war Naeem, the war is to win outside support and hearts of people. They are losing support outside of the muslim world and it will cost them. The tactic that they feel will lead to their freedom will ultimately lead to their defeat.
That Israel is an American lackey and stoolpigeon of the US has been made abundantly clear by Adolf Sharon kowtowing and pulling out of Goebbles Arafat's compound.
Israel jumps when Uncle Sam swishes his whip. Arabs have been complaining about this all along. If war with Iraq does break out, keeping Sharon and his pit bulls in leash will be a major factor. Israel is willing to repeatedly sacrifice its people to suicide bombers - so a few more to Iraq in the cause of the its sugar daddy wil not matter.
That Israel is an American lackey and stoolpigeon of the US has been made abundantly clear by Adolf Sharon kowtowing and pulling out of Goebbles Arafat's compound.
Israel jumps when Uncle Sam swishes his whip. Arabs have been complaining about this all along. If war with Iraq does break out, keeping Sharon and his pit bulls in leash will be a major factor. Israel is willing to repeatedly sacrifice its people to suicide bombers - so a few more to Iraq in the cause of the its sugar daddy wil not matter.
Ahh so you are upset that we support Israel. O.K fine. Tell you what. We'll stop doing so and tell Israel to do whatever they want. How would you like that ? It would take about 3 months for them to expell every Palestinian living in Israel. Then what ? So far our support has been the only thing from preventing it from happening. Of course they listen because they know if they don't then our aid stops. So I say end aid to Israel and they'll have no reason to answer the phone when we call. And it won't take long to take every Palestinian out of Israel and then who will you blame other than Israel ? It's simple Naradar, end support and you take away the incentive for the Isralies to listen. You fail to see that. You also fail to sse that with each suicide bomber their support here among average Americans decreases and sympathy grows for the Isralies. Without adressing or admitting that, the Palestinians are doomed.
Contrary to wishful-thinking, conservative assertions posted here, the Palestinian cause continues to enjoy widepread, and growing, global support.
Far beyond Islamic nations.
The colossal, intolerable injustice that is Israel's decades-long occupation assures that reality.
In fact, outside of reactionary circles within the United States and Israel itself, there's almost universal, total backing for the notion of the establishment of a truly sovereign Palestinian state (not a Quisling protectorate), with leadership picked by the Palestinian people themselves -- not ridiculous, Regime Change Bush, or the hoary hardliner, Ariel Sharon.
400,000 Britons marched in London on Saturday, partly to protest the impending Yankee aggression of Iraq...but also in solidarity with the Palestinian Intifada.
Similar, active sentiment exists across the planet.
Rob is a towering hypocrite, remaining absolutely mum about the vastly greater, prior outrages and acts of state terrorism of both the United States and Israel -- while constantly screaming "bloody murder" in limited cases of violence committed in imprudent, desperate retaliation by the abjectly oppressed.
Palestinian victory is certain.
It will come because it's right, and necessary, and because no retrograde "might" on earth has the power to overcome its transcendent soul force.
Contrary to wishful-thinking, conservative assertions posted here, the Palestinian cause continues to enjoy widepread, and growing, global support.
Of course you has no proof but that's never stopped you.
Far beyond Islamic nations.
One article from lying socialist.com doesn't count.
In fact, outside of reactionary circles within the United States and Israel itself, there's almost universal, total backing for the notion of the establishment of a truly sovereign Palestinian state (not a Quisling protectorate), with leadership picked by the Palestinian people themselves -- not ridiculous, Regime Change Bush, or the hoary hardliner, Ariel Sharon. Â Â
There used to be that perception in the civilized world, then the Palestinains decided to start purposely killing civilians whos only crime was eating pizza.
400,000 Britons marched in London on Saturday, partly to protest the impending Yankee aggression of Iraq...but also in solidarity with the Palestinian Intifada. Â Â
Really ? So they were also there to support the Palestinain murders' ? And in Washington we had............2,500 Wow ! LOL
Similar, active sentiment exists across the planet.
Yes there's a few cooks in every nation I'm sure you have thier phone numbers.
Rob is a towering hypocrite, remaining absolutely mum about the vastly greater, prior outrages and acts of state terrorism of both the United States and Israel  Â
This coming from a man who defends a convicted war criminal who is guilty of genocide on a scale not seen since the 40's. And yet you apologize for Milosevic. You sir are the hypocrite and a liar.
-- while constantly screaming "bloody murder" in limited cases of violence committed in imprudent, desperate retaliation by the abjectly oppressed.
Ahhh, there's the apology, "limited cases of violence committed in imprudent desparate retaliation by the opressesd" Imprudent ? and limited. Yea I'm sure the mother who saw her childs body splattered and her brains extruded from her skull after the shrapnel ripped through her 7 year olds head saw it as just "imprudent". Keep on apologizing for murder. It fits you perfectly.
Palestinian victory is certain.
Yea looks like things are going great for them. Pffft
What can you say about the "morality" of someone who refuses to acknowledge the axiomatic truth that America's atomic incinerations of the civilian populaces of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a horrendous war crime?
Somebody who preposterously contends that the countless noncombatant murders that came about because of dreadful U.S. policy in Guatemala, Indonesia, Korea, Indochina, Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama, Yugoslavia, Iraq (just to mention the more prominent) -- are nothing but "leftwing lies"...
An individual who's part of a rightwing movement that went apoplectic over Ruby Ridge, Waco, and the Elian Gonzalez liberation...
But actively supports a brutal 35-year occupation -- by Israel of the Palestinian territories -- that has entailed such assaults on people and property, in an ongoing way, in which invading police and troops do not free anyone, but take them into often secret detention, to frequently be tortured...
I guess the documented realities of Tel Aviv's calculated intention to extirpate the Palestinian identity, in furtherance of Zionist purity (which is the basis of several UN resolutions condemning Israel), is simply leftist or Islamic falsehood.
Instead, this ethically bankrupt person points an "outraged" finger at a crushingly oppressed people, as vastly outgunned and overpowered as anyone has ever been, when some in their tormented midst resort to a cynical and desperate replication (albeit with a horrifying twist) of the very violence that's been employed against them since 1967, and actually much earlier.
Doesn't this individual see that it's the totally wrongheaded, unyielding position of sad souls such as himself...which is the REASON extremism becomes a necessity in the eyes and hearts of some?
The Palestinian struggle for justice and a free homeland is the most eminently worthy cause on earth. Humanity recognizes that fact, and extends its solidarity to the Palestinians from all corners of the planet.
Rob, as part of his comprehensive misread of reality and history, thinks such sentiment doesn't exist. Actually, that's not so. He's fully aware of that backing...but lies about it to try to bolster his untenable, conservative position.
When Israeli armor was surrounding and shelling Yasser Arafat's Ramallah compound, the Palestinian people took to the streets en masse, on the West Bank and in Gaza, defying Israeli curfews that have routinely, summarily shot dead those violating them in the past.
Some were killed again.
But, in that act of inspiring courage exhibited by a whole people, it became evident to the world who has the real power, and the certain basis for eventual victory.
With half of Israelis themselves appreciating the need for a Palestinian homeland, it's just a matter of time before that great triumph comes to fruition.
On this second anniversary of the current Intifada, I salute the Palestinians.
Yea but you keep doing it with your "but they had no choice---Luv2Fly
every thing has a reason in this world some time wrong some time right but u can't call a reason an apology
I'm sure you have proof to back up your ridicolous statement which is an outright lie.---Luv2Fly
any thing thats not suits the point of you american is lie :-)
They could remove every Palestinian from the area with the power that they have---Luv2Fly
I am not sure whether u were in your mind or not while writing this ridicolous statement :-) I Pray Israel declare an all out war against Palestinian people by using Aerican weapnse it will be great chance for palestinian to punish Israelis for all of their crimes, hundred and thousands of muslims throughout the world will also join their legitimate cause (American should pray and try to aviod this situation for their own interest). A Palestinian don't scared of dieing he can easily kill 10 to 15 Israeli by sacrificing one of his life and it will not be bad deal to eliminate Israelis from the area offcourse palestinian will have lots of casualties BUT it will certainly be fruitfull. and when Israelis will sufficiently be beaten in middle east and facing a servival threat jewish will turn to US in frustration and will create same problem what they have created in nazi germony and may face same concequencies what they have faced from Germans :-)
The tactic that they feel will lead to their freedom will ultimately lead to their defeat.---Luv2Fly
All previous colonialists had the similar statments for their slaves and US is a potential future colonial power. you american are not the one to decide the tactics for the people who are struggling for freedom b'coz american are the one who are supporting occupier and aggressor not the freedom fighters. its the people who are fighting for their freedom and independence will decide what tactics they should choose. crimnals don't decide how police should deal with them its the police who will decide how to deal with crimnals
Israel is killing innocent palestinian women and children since 1948 and palestinian started it just 2 years before b'coz they had left no choice but to give the same pain to Israelis what they are facing since last 50 years
In response I said.
I'm sure you have proof to back up your ridicolous statement which is an outright lie
And your only reply was.
any thing thats not suits the point of you american is lie :-)
That's all you could come up with ? Having to actually debate would force you to tell the truth and we know that the fanatical Muslims and Palestinians have a tough time with truth. But thanks for showing your true colors. Fact is Naeem that suicide bombers and terrorism have been going on for alot more than 2 years. You know that and are just too dishonest or blind to admit it.
I Pray Israel declare an all out war against Palestinian people by using Aerican weapnse
Keep praying, you might get your wish and the Palestinians will be wiped off the map and the Isralies that you opress won't have to worry about murderous suicide bobmbers and idiots who call themselves freedom fighters who are murdering scum. The civilized world knows that, civilized being the key word.
All previous colonialists had the similar statments for their slaves and US is a potential future colonial power. you american are not the one to decide the tactics for the people who are struggling for freedom b'coz american are the one who are supporting occupier and aggressor not the freedom fighters.
It's that exact mentality that keeps most of the Muslim world in the thrid world. Keep it up your people are doing swell. Kill any Christians or other infidels lately ? Yea what a great people. is it 1520 a.d still ? Well some places it is.
More from your war prayer.
BUT it will certainly be fruitfull. and when Israelis will sufficiently be beaten in middle east and facing a servival threat jewish will turn to US in frustration and will create same problem what they have created in nazi germony and may face same concequencies what they have faced from Germans :-)
Ahh so you wish the same consequences upon Jews as they faced from the Germans. Hmmm advocating another Holocaust. That's lovely what a peaceful people you are who deserve their own homeland......(in the Artic Circle)
You heard it here folks another fanatic who sides with Hitler and who wants to see another holocaust and yet reasonable people are supposed to negotiate with monsters like that. And Dennis supports them, how lovely for you all. Hitler, Naeem and their apologists, you're in good company.
Have you been living inside a big, black lawn and leaf bag with the yellow ties all knotted up, or something?
Do you really think that the Israeli occupation over the past decades hasn't entailed systematic brutality, outrageous human-rights violations, torture and murder?
And that terrorism in the region wasn't originally a Zionist tactic?
Do you honestly believe the world doesn't know this, and that international public opinion supports Israel, and not the Palestinian liberation cause?
You're either ignorant of one of the cruelest realities of our time, or you're just prevaricationg for partisan purposes.
If George Bush bucks world opinion and actually launches an aggressive war gainst Iraqi cities -- with all the devastating power our military has at its disposal -- the U.S. will terrorize (and kill) infinitely more innocent civilians than Palestinian extremists have done in Israel and the Occupied Territories.
Read that paragraph again.
Let it sink in.
Weigh its implication against everything you've ever been taught America is supposed to stand for.
The key to the following is 'the mandate' which gave legitimacy to THE ARAB NATIONS>
What do people mean when they refer to 'The Occupied Territories' of the Middle East?
The 'Occupied Territories' refers to land lost by Israel's Arab neighbors, and gained by Israel, in the Six-Day      War of 1967. They include Judaea and Samaria (previously occupied by Jordan, and now known as the 'West      Bank'), the Golan Heights (previously occupied by Syria), and the Gaza Strip (previously occupied by Egypt). Interestingly, while these territories were conquered by Jordan, Syria and Egypt in 1948 to the time they were gained by Israel, the territories were not refered to as 'occupied' by the international community. Furthermore,      the people living in those territories before 1967 were not called 'Palestinians' as they are today; they were      called Jordanians and Egyptians. How things change...
- The Society for Rational Peace
Are these territories really 'occuppied'?
"Yesha [the "West Bank"] is not an 'occupied Arab land' but in fact an area of the Mandate which are to be      dealt with in accordance with the terms of the Mandate." [That means that according to International law all      Jewish settlements are legal as they are built according to Mandate's provision of "encouraging the close      settlement in these areas by the Jews."]
"The Mandate does not provide for a separate Arab state to be created in Yesha." [Israel has much more right      to Yesha than anybody else, according to International law, since Jordan, which captured Yesha in 1948 in an      aggressive war against the young Jewish state, officially renounced all claims to Judea and Samaria in 1988].
- Australian lawyer David Singer, in his article "A Mandate for Peace," dedicated to the 75th anniversary of      the promulgation by the League of Nations of the Mandate for Palestine,
In November of 1947, UN General Assembly resolution 181 was issued, recommending a "Plan of Partition"      of Palestine. The Arabs rejected the resolution outright and Azzam Pasha, secretary-general of the Arab      League, proclaimed that "the partition line shall be nothing but a line of fire and blood." The terrorist      operations that began against Jewish targets on the day after the UN vote escalated into a full scale aggressive      war against the newborn state. It was Jordan, and not Israel, that occupied the land of Judea and Samaria as a      result of this war. Like the Romans, who changed the name Eretz Israel to Palestine in order to obliterate the      name of the Jewish state from the memory of mankind, the Jordanians introduced the term "West Bank" trying      to convince the world that they had always owned both banks of the Jordan river. When Israel liberated Judea      and Samaria in 1967 justice was restored -- the only lawful owner of the land regained possession of it. It is      ridiculous to say that Judea, Samaria and Gaza are "occupied territories" as these areas are, in fact, areas of      the Mandate, where the Jews were and are encouraged to settle.
How did the phrase 'Occupied Territories' come into popular usage?
Legal scholars have debated for years whether the Fourth Geneva Convention even applies to the West Bank      and Gaza. In fact, Arab diplomats have boasted that one of their key objectives immediately after the Six-Day      War was to make the term "occupied territories" the standard nomenclature to describe these lands...
- John R. Bolton, Senior Vice President, American Enterprise Institute, July 14, 1999
We are your constituents, and we oppose a U.S. military attack on Iraq. We are counting on you to ask the difficult, unanswered questions:
1. What is the evidence of a clear and present danger?
2. What are the alternatives?
3. How many lives will be lost?
4. Is the timing -- just before the election -- intended to draw public attention away from troubling domestic issues (corporate criminality, degrading environmental policy)?
5. How can we claim any high moral ground when we:
a. Sold chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein in the 1980s?
b. Supported Iraq in its war against Iran, knowing that Iraq was using poisonous gas against Iran?
6. Why not spend the money on an international effort to assist the people of Iraq with food, shelter and education, so that they have the wherewithal to oppose Saddam?
Yes, we are horrified by the events of Sept. 11, 2001, and therefore, we cannot remain silent while our government proposes to terrorize the innocent citizens of Iraq with war.
--Mary Brill and Paul Scott, South Range (Duluth News Tribune letter)
The UN, Lead by France, should do it---i.e crush Iraq into the dust mite age. (For the simple reason that Iraq defied all rational requests from those who won the war). But NO you don't GIVE a FUCK about Iraqi's---let them be slave to Saddam---Slavery equals peace??? Dennis I hope you are young, otherwise you are fools, and dangerous fools at that.
We won---our rules rule--???
American lives should not be put at risk.
The French, like ewe, want to behave in a diplomatocriferous-Chamberlainian way? Was-Sup wit dat??
It's violently destructive to children, flowers, and other living things.
It should never be entered into lightly.
I believe Dubya's reasons for going to war range in lightness somewhere between duck down and under-bed dust.
He says Saddam is an imminent threat to all humanity.
If that were truly so, you'd think Iraq's closest neighbors would be shivering in their boots. They don't feel endangered, at least not from that quarter. It's America that's got them scared to death.
Bush is telling a huge, dreadful lie, for three reasons:
1. This issue has suddenly been raised, weeks before a key election, to divert attention from administration failings and links to Enrongate corruption and sleaze.
2. America is embarked on an imperialist crusade to de-nationalize Iraqi oil and make it once again profitably available to major energy interests.
3. Bush is angling for decisive advantage in an inter-capitalist rivalry. Russia and France know this perfectly well, and are consequently erecting stumbling blocks.
Nobody should die for these machinations.
Not American kids just out of school, looking to begin their adult lives.
And certainly not the washerwomen and toddlers of Baghdad.
If you sincerely think this war is necessary, feel free to lead the charge against a people who'll be defending their country against foreign invasion with all the passion we'd muster if an aggressive power did it to us.
Ouch! Bullets hurt, don't they?
Just don't count on many of the rest of us being behind you.
Fact is Naeem that suicide bombers and terrorism have been going on for alot more than 2 years.
what ever but its still much lesser then more then 50 years old Israeli brutality.
you might get your wish and the Palestinians will be wiped off the map
care about your own country, US is bringing up a snake in form of Israel that will eventually couse an east/west US or north/south US :-)
It's that exact mentality that keeps most of the Muslim world in the thrid world
what mentality!! its a wide spread feeling that US is a future colonial power not only among muslims but also among lots of non-muslims communities and countries. US will certainly have to face the same end what previous colonialists had to face means east/west or north/south :-))
Ahh so you wish the same consequences upon Jews as they faced from the Germans. Hmmm advocating another Holocaust
There is not need for any wish or advocacy jewish are heading towords it by themselves :-)
It's that exact mentality that keeps most of the Muslim world in the thrid world
what mentality!! its a wide spread feeling that US is a future colonial power not only among muslims but also among lots of non-muslims communities and countries. US will certainly have to face the same end what previous colonialists had to face means east/west or north/south :-))
Ahh so all of their problems are our fault. You also fail miserbly to mention the times recently we have sent our soilders into danger to defend muslims. Serbia ring any bells ? I suppose we were being colonial then. The reason that many of the nations run by fanatic muslim rule are in the shape they are in is that they fail to adress their own problems within. Instead they prefer to balem everything on the Jews or the U.S instead of taking a look at the problems they have caused in their own nation.
Ahh so you wish the same consequences upon Jews as they faced from the Germans. Hmmm advocating another Holocaust
There is not need for any wish or advocacy jewish are heading towords it by themselves :-)
Nice try at slithering out of your racist statements. It's there in black and white a few posts back, and that's exactly why you'll never get support among the civilized world. You're an ignorant racist, plain and simple.
My opinions have nothing to do with partisan politics, different administrations have always supported Israel, R's and D's support Israel. It's not a partisan issue, it's one of humanity.
You are constantly implying that I think Israel is without sin. I don't believe they are, no country is, when you find one let me know. The same could be said for you, the Palestinains have done plenty of horrid things and yet you call their violence and intentionally killing children "imprudent" so you do the same, just from the other side. So to clear it up, here's why I do, I remind you that very recently I was fairly nuetral or undecided. Here's why I do support them or have little sympathy for their plight.
First and foremost it's Palestines tactics I abhore. Deliberately targeting civilians is a tactic that only compiles their woes. It takes people like me who were on the fence and makes the decision easy. A year ago I would have given serious consideration to a candidate if he/she wanted to end aid or curtail it to Israel. I no longer feel that way. I now see what is at stake for the people of Israel and the murderous thugs that they are up against. Terrorism should NEVER NEVER NEVER be rewarded. And yet they are still willing to listen and even discuss a Palestinain state.
Among other prominent reasons I support them is that I don't see much willingness on the Palestinians side to compromise. And here I believe is where you miss the proverbial boat. They hate Jews and I mean hate in the strongest of terms. Do they have reason to ? Sure, but they also hated them long before there was the state of Israel and hated them long before 1948. They are taught it from a young age, they are taught to hate infidels (us and the Jews) from day one. Many are on record saying that they don't wish the Jews to even exist. How do you negotiate or why should you with someone who doesn't believe you have the right to exist.
As witnessed by Naeem's statements that level of hatred is clear, he essentially would be happy to see another holocaust to kill jews on a mass scale. You saw the post and yet said nothing, that says alot to me about where you stand and alot about you. The cause D'jour is more important to you. Naeem is not alone in those feelings and your silence is deafining simply because you support the Palestinians and yet you accuse me of turning a blind eye? Well pot, meet kettle. That level of hatred is common, a hatred that existed for the people they call the infidel and yet we are supposed to negotiate or reason with people like that ? Not in my lifetime Dennis.
So we have Israel who absolutely has wronged Palestinians and we have Palestinians who have wronged the Jews. They kill Jews and they kill Palestinians. Israelie civilians deal daily with the threat of their kids being killed on the way to school by a homocide bomber, They have seen their country attacked from within. They have seen their children killed as have the Palestinains.
And yet I have never heard on Jewish leader call for an end to Palestinians even existing. I have never heard a Rabbi preaching that they are subhuman. I have never seen kids in school being taught that an entire race is evil. I have never seen a 14 year old Jewish boy being taught how to use explosives to insure maximum death when they unleash their suicide bomb. I have never seen a Jewish mother and father glad to see their son die or as a martyr in a useless war. I have never seen a Jewish leader take money from the people he claims to be helping. I have never seen a Jewish leader or Rabbi call for a holy war or refer to them as nonhumans. I have never seen Jews celebrating by the thousands when civilians are killed And lastly. I have never seen a Jew call or wish for a holocaust upon the Palestinains.
I can't say the same for Palestinans or their supporters.
Terrorism should NEVER NEVER NEVER be rewarded.---Luv2Fly
You do support Terrorism. Israel's state terrorism! you give them weaponse you run their economy you are feeding them you are harbouring them
I have never heard on Jewish leader call for an end to Palestinians even existing---Luv2Fly
Yup they don't call but do the same! have u ever seen a thief call to thieve??? crimes are always done silently and crimnals always try to hide his crime and Israel is doing the same.
I have seen lots of Israelis who call for peace and then kills hundreds innocent infants, childrens and women, I saw lots of jwesh who try to justify the brutal murderer of 7 innocent children by killing just one militant.
Luv2Fly! evil always try hid their crimes by beautifull faces, words and justification and Israel does the same
Sharon's responsibility for Israeli war crimes is being completely ignored. Who should be arrested for the targeted killing of almost 100 Palestinians? Who will be sent to jail for the killing of more than 120 Palestinian paramedics? Who will be sentenced for the killing of more than 1,200 Palestinians and for the collective punishment of more than 3,000,000 civilians during the last 18 months? And who will face the International Tribunal for the illegal settlement of occupied Palestinian Lands, and the disobedience of UN decisions for more than 35 years?
Suicide bombs killing innocent citizens must be unequivocally condemned; they are immoral acts, and their perpetrators should be sent to jail. But they cannot be compared to State terrorism carried out by the Israeli Government. The former are individual acts of despair of a people that sees no future, vastly ignored by an unfair and distorted international public opinion. The latter are cold and "rational" decisions of a State and a military apparatus of occupation, well equipped, financed and backed by the only superpower in the world.
Yet in the public debate, State terrorism and individual suicide bombs are not even considered as comparable cases of terrorism. The State terror and war crimes perpetrated by the Israeli Government are legitimized as "self-defense", while Arafat, even under siege, is demanded to arrest "terrorists."
I want to ask: Who will arrest Sharon, the person directly responsible for the orders to kill Palestinians? When is he going to be defined a terrorist too? How long will the world ignore the Palestinian cry that all they want is freedom and independence? When will it stop neglecting the fact that the goal of the Israeli Government is not security, but the continued OCCUPATION and SUBJUGATION of the Palestinian people?
--Dr. Lev Grinberg, a political sociologist, and Director of the Humphrey Institute for Social Research at Ben Gurion University
http://www.yellowtimes.org/images/kirwan/kirwan09.jpg
War on Iraq? How much?
Tell me, is there such a thing as a love crime ?
Naeem
You would be surprised at what goes on in our country. There is undescribable things done to women right out in the open streets. The younger, the better seems to be the thought. We need an honorable society like yours to come over here and straighten us out.
</sarcasm>
I feel sorry for the poor guys - they've absolutely no ideea what's coming
Yeah right
http://www.israel-state-terrorism.org/
Here is a site that provides a wealth of documentation concerning the
Israeli state terrorism that has been routinely, massively inflicted upon the Palestinians during more than three decades of brutal occupation.
I ask you, especially, to check out the links of progressive Israeli and Jewish groups that oppose what's being done in their name.
http://www.stopwar.org.uk/
Britain's Tony Blair is virtually the only world leader backing Bush
policies.
But where do the British people stand?
Look at the formidable list of endorsers at this link.
It just shows that, even in our one supposedly supportive country,
total shit will hit the fan if Dubya attacks.
Westerners and espacially American are more worried about muslim women then muslims women themselves. here in our culture, society and religion most of the women are more happy then women in US, they feel more comfortable, protection and respect then women in western world. they don't need the help of those western women who even don't know what the respect of women is! these western women think that having sex with more man means they are more respectable :-) or if they can open more of their body mean they are more liberate and free. The kind of 'leberation' and 'freedom' these women are enjoying in their society are benefiting more to the men of their society then them.
Lots of people are saying Bush is a Gorbachof (spell??) of US :-)) is this true ;)
Naeem Siddiqui, (# 716 of 718)
I know we all tend to look the same, but I can tell Gorbachev from Bush by the ink stain (also, the American one speaks english).
There is now an Unmoderated Forum in the Middle East Forum!!?? The other one was a haven for the Jewish extremists whose idea of retribution for the holocaust is to perpetuate the same on the Palestinians. Acolytes of Adolf Sharon!
More innocent Palestinians die - and it galls me my tax money was used to murder them
They died when a missile fire from a helicopter struck and destroyed Mr. Deif's green Mercedes, leaving a wreckage of body parts, smashed automobiles and shattered windows.
NYT report. Using helicopters and missiles in suburban areas teeming with civilians?? Iraq's so-dumb-insane did the same to his own people and to Kurds. Milosovic did this in Kosovo. The US and NATO should be bombing Israel - not making plans to take out so-dumb-insane.
Naradar, I really hope Israel does have a full out war with the Palestinians. That will solve the problem because there will be very few of them left. The Palestinains are instigating this and anyone that isn't biased knows that.
your true colors are now transparent - jethro bodine 9/27/02 10:30am
Hitler reasoned along the same lines - he saw the Jews as the root of all evil and attempted to exterminate them.
You are esposuing Hitler's methods and tactics.
Well - the Jewish people survived - and prospered.
So will the Palestinians.
You responded with "You are espousing Hitler's methods and tactics" to my statement "The Palestinains are instigating this and anyone that isn't biased knows that.' That tells me that if I had any doubt about your bias it has been fully and completely removed.
You are such an EXTREMIST, Naradar. I have no more fondness for Israel than I do for say Brazil or France. My opinion is that Truman should not have recognized Israel in 1948. But Israel has been around awhile now and they have a right to self defense. I have no desire to see the Palestinians killed but if they persist in the terror they must pay the consequences. If you can still equate that attitude with Hitler then you know where you can go.
That is my position also. I have stated that here before. I believe that Israel should exist - but confined to the pre-1967 borders. All settlements must be disbanded and settlers pushed into the dead sea with boulders tied around their necks. Palestine also has a right to exist - along the lines of the Clinton deal rejected by Arafat. Jerusalem should be an independent city-state - both Israel and Palestine should keep their dirty paws off it.
I do not want any more of my tax money subsidizing Israeli excesses. And if Israel can use tanks, missiles and terror against the Palestinians - then the helpless Palestininans should have the right to retaliate with their only powerful weapon - suicide bombers.
Naradar,
I would probably agree, do you also think we should stop sending your tax money to the Palestinians as well ?
Yea and ifthe palestinians had them I'm sure they wouldn't use them.
It's also a lie to say they don't have powerful weapons. They have Ak's, Kalishnikov's, grenades, RPG's, Shoulder fired anti aircraft weapons and ALOT of explosives, They could target the soilders but don't, they'd rather tagrget kids going to a Seder celebration or some innocent mother eating pizza.
Luv2Fly 9/27/02 11:56am- we hardly give any money to Palestine. The Europeans do. I would support more nation building - along the lines of Afghanistan - for Palestine after it comes into being.
Suicide bombing was really started by the Tamil terrorists of Sri Lanka in the early 80's ( By the way I am a Tamil!!). The Palestinians adopted it only recently - long after even the intifada commenced. It was NOT their choice - they were driven to it by the extremism of Adolf Sharon.
Israel has a well trained armed force - as efficient as what the nations of the West have. They have a flourishing armaments and weapons export industry. They even sell to arch enemies of the US - like China. The avaracious nature of Jews is well known and documented.
The Palestinians are a ragtag bunch of teenagers and women - facing a world class power.
The Palestinians are a ragtag bunch of teenagers and women - facing a world class power.
If that is true they should go home and live with the situation. Israel is simply trying to defend its people.
Naradar
Ahh but that's o.k right ?
The bombings and terrorism were going on long before Sharon was in power, nice try.
Yea, who intentionally kill women and children. What a brave bunch.
Keep apologizing for them Naradar, it's fitting.
Israel is simply trying to defend its people.
True after the formation of Israel and till the Oslo accord. After that, and especially after the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin - by a jewish zealot of the same ilk as those in power today - Israel has been the aggressor. The settlements are an example - mostly by a bunch of New York fat cats trucked in and subsidised to satisfy the expansionist aims of the right wing Jewish goons.
I see no difference between Adolf Sharon and so-dumb-insane of Iraq.
This for Dennis and Naradar,
http://www.anncoulter.org/
I little over the top but fun reading.
apple of someone’s eye - apple-314159 9/27/02 4:24pm
I ceased being a democrat after Clinton - voted for that sob twice. Switched to Nader in the last - and am contemptuous of all politicians these days.
Ann Coulter perhaps did have some form of clitoral circumcision that has so traumatized her that she has transformed into a shrill witch – she reminds of the 3 witches in Macbeth. The mindless gorgon does not realize that among the primitives she derides are most of the Europeans. As for Americans hating the Democrats – wishful thinking. For the political system here to change some form of national revulsion against one or both parties must occur. I do not see that happening.
Keep apologizing for them Naradar, it's fitting---Luv2Fly
there is no issue of apologizing! Israel is killing innocent palestinian women and children since 1948 and palestinian started it just 2 years before b'coz they had left no choice but to give the same pain to Israelis what they are facing since last 50 years Palestinian have the legetimite right to kill Israeli women and children untill Israel stop killing innocent Palestinian women and children! its called tit for tat
You keep justifying Israel's abnormal existance and brutality you american fit for this :-)
Naradar, I really hope Israel does have a full out war with the Palestinians---jethro
It can only be expected by a coward country Like Israel who have no guts to fight with its competent malitry and has become habitual of killing innocent women, children and unarmed people!
First povide weaponse like helis, jets and tanks to palestinan and then dare for war and then see what happens to Israel! :-)
It's not about the land.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/horowitz041002.asp
Naeem,
Yea but you keep doing it with your "but they had no choice B.S.
So they have only been doing it for 2 years ? I'm sure you have proof to back up your ridicolous statement which is an outright lie.
It's called tit for tat ? O.K if you want to go down that road the Isralies could do alot more if they wanted. They could remove every Palestinian from the area with the power that they have. They haven't. The Palestinians have stated on more than one occasion that they don't think Israel has a right to even exist and yet the Isralies should negotiate ?
Here's the thing Naeem. As recently as a few months ago I supported the Palestinian cause or was nuetral and questioned our support of Israel. I no longer do, and I am not alone in this. The average person who votes in this country probably would have questioned it as well. That's changing and any admin that gets elected will have overwhelming support by our people to continue to help Israel. Why you may ask ? Because like me, most people can see that there is a difference and that terrorism should never be rewarded. They are losing the war Naeem, the war is to win outside support and hearts of people. They are losing support outside of the muslim world and it will cost them. The tactic that they feel will lead to their freedom will ultimately lead to their defeat.
That Israel is an American lackey and stoolpigeon of the US has been made abundantly clear by Adolf Sharon kowtowing and pulling out of Goebbles Arafat's compound.
Israel jumps when Uncle Sam swishes his whip. Arabs have been complaining about this all along. If war with Iraq does break out, keeping Sharon and his pit bulls in leash will be a major factor. Israel is willing to repeatedly sacrifice its people to suicide bombers - so a few more to Iraq in the cause of the its sugar daddy wil not matter.
Naradar,
Ahh so you are upset that we support Israel. O.K fine. Tell you what. We'll stop doing so and tell Israel to do whatever they want. How would you like that ? It would take about 3 months for them to expell every Palestinian living in Israel. Then what ? So far our support has been the only thing from preventing it from happening. Of course they listen because they know if they don't then our aid stops. So I say end aid to Israel and they'll have no reason to answer the phone when we call. And it won't take long to take every Palestinian out of Israel and then who will you blame other than Israel ? It's simple Naradar, end support and you take away the incentive for the Isralies to listen. You fail to see that. You also fail to sse that with each suicide bomber their support here among average Americans decreases and sympathy grows for the Isralies. Without adressing or admitting that, the Palestinians are doomed.
I don't see how you can support that statement. Please explain.
Contrary to wishful-thinking, conservative assertions posted here, the Palestinian cause continues to enjoy widepread, and growing, global support.
Far beyond Islamic nations.
The colossal, intolerable injustice that is Israel's decades-long
occupation assures that reality.
In fact, outside of reactionary circles within the
United States and Israel itself, there's almost universal, total backing for the notion of the establishment of a truly sovereign Palestinian state (not a Quisling protectorate), with leadership picked by the Palestinian people themselves -- not ridiculous, Regime Change Bush, or the hoary hardliner, Ariel Sharon.
400,000 Britons marched in London on Saturday, partly to protest the impending Yankee aggression of Iraq...but also in solidarity with
the Palestinian Intifada.
Similar, active sentiment exists across the planet.
Rob is a towering hypocrite, remaining absolutely
mum about the vastly greater, prior outrages and acts of state terrorism of both the United States and Israel -- while constantly screaming "bloody murder" in limited cases of violence committed in imprudent, desperate retaliation by the abjectly oppressed.
Palestinian victory is certain.
It will come because it's right, and necessary, and
because no retrograde "might" on earth has the power to
overcome its transcendent soul force.
Of course you has no proof but that's never stopped you.
One article from lying socialist.com doesn't count.
There used to be that perception in the civilized world, then the Palestinains decided to start purposely killing civilians whos only crime was eating pizza.
Really ? So they were also there to support the Palestinain murders' ? And in Washington we had............2,500 Wow ! LOL
Yes there's a few cooks in every nation I'm sure you have thier phone numbers.
This coming from a man who defends a convicted war criminal who is guilty of genocide on a scale not seen since the 40's. And yet you apologize for Milosevic. You sir are the hypocrite and a liar.
Ahhh, there's the apology, "limited cases of violence committed in imprudent desparate retaliation by the opressesd" Imprudent ? and limited. Yea I'm sure the mother who saw her childs body splattered and her brains extruded from her skull after the shrapnel ripped through her 7 year olds head saw it as just "imprudent".
Keep on apologizing for murder. It fits you perfectly.
Yea looks like things are going great for them. Pffft
I'm not missing 7th Heaven tonight, Rob.
You can slander my name all over the place, but uh-uh, honey, lay off of my...tube.
You'll have no trouble from Rob tonight. He's catching "The Boss" in concert tonight.
What can you say about the "morality" of someone who refuses to acknowledge the axiomatic truth that America's atomic incinerations of the civilian populaces of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a horrendous war crime?
Somebody who preposterously contends that the countless noncombatant murders that came about because of dreadful U.S. policy in Guatemala, Indonesia, Korea, Indochina, Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama, Yugoslavia, Iraq (just to mention the more prominent) -- are nothing but "leftwing lies"...
An individual who's part of a rightwing movement that went apoplectic over Ruby Ridge, Waco, and the Elian Gonzalez liberation...
But actively supports a brutal 35-year occupation -- by Israel of the Palestinian territories -- that has entailed such assaults on people and property, in an ongoing way, in which invading police and troops do not free anyone, but take them into often secret detention, to frequently be tortured...
I guess the documented realities of Tel Aviv's calculated intention to extirpate the Palestinian identity, in furtherance of Zionist purity (which is the basis of several UN resolutions condemning Israel), is simply leftist or Islamic falsehood.
Instead, this ethically bankrupt person points an "outraged" finger at a crushingly oppressed people, as vastly outgunned and overpowered as anyone has ever been, when some in their tormented midst resort to a cynical and desperate replication (albeit with a horrifying twist) of the very violence that's been employed against them since 1967, and actually much earlier.
Doesn't this individual see that it's the totally wrongheaded, unyielding position of sad souls such as himself...which is the REASON extremism becomes a necessity in the eyes and hearts of some?
The Palestinian struggle for justice and a free homeland is the most eminently worthy cause on earth. Humanity recognizes that fact, and extends its solidarity to the Palestinians from all corners of the planet.
Rob, as part of his comprehensive misread of reality and history, thinks such sentiment doesn't exist. Actually, that's not so. He's fully aware of that backing...but lies about it to try to bolster his untenable, conservative position.
When Israeli armor was surrounding and shelling Yasser Arafat's Ramallah compound, the Palestinian people took to the streets en masse, on the West Bank and in Gaza, defying Israeli curfews that have routinely, summarily shot dead those violating them in the past.
Some were killed again.
But, in that act of inspiring courage exhibited by a whole people, it became evident to the world who has the real power, and the certain basis for eventual victory.
With half of Israelis themselves appreciating the need for a Palestinian homeland, it's just a matter of time before that great triumph comes to fruition.
On this second anniversary of the current Intifada, I salute the Palestinians.
Solidarity!
Yea but you keep doing it with your "but they had no choice---Luv2Fly
every thing has a reason in this world some time wrong some time right but u can't call a reason an apology
I'm sure you have proof to back up your ridicolous statement which is an outright lie.---Luv2Fly
any thing thats not suits the point of you american is lie :-)
They could remove every Palestinian from the area with the power that they have---Luv2Fly
I am not sure whether u were in your mind or not while writing this ridicolous statement :-)
I Pray Israel declare an all out war against Palestinian people by using Aerican weapnse it will be great chance for palestinian to punish Israelis for all of their crimes, hundred and thousands of muslims throughout the world will also join their legitimate cause (American should pray and try to aviod this situation for their own interest). A Palestinian don't scared of dieing he can easily kill 10 to 15 Israeli by sacrificing one of his life and it will not be bad deal to eliminate Israelis from the area offcourse palestinian will have lots of casualties BUT it will certainly be fruitfull. and when Israelis will sufficiently be beaten in middle east and facing a servival threat jewish will turn to US in frustration and will create same problem what they have created in nazi germony and may face same concequencies what they have faced from Germans :-)
The tactic that they feel will lead to their freedom will ultimately lead to their defeat.---Luv2Fly
All previous colonialists had the similar statments for their slaves and US is a potential future colonial power. you american are not the one to decide the tactics for the people who are struggling for freedom b'coz american are the one who are supporting occupier and aggressor not the freedom fighters. its the people who are fighting for their freedom and independence will decide what tactics they should choose. crimnals don't decide how police should deal with them its the police who will decide how to deal with crimnals
Naeem,
In response I said.
I'm sure you have proof to back up your ridicolous statement which is an outright lie
And your only reply was.
That's all you could come up with ? Having to actually debate would force you to tell the truth and we know that the fanatical Muslims and Palestinians have a tough time with truth. But thanks for showing your true colors. Fact is Naeem that suicide bombers and terrorism have been going on for alot more than 2 years. You know that and are just too dishonest or blind to admit it.
Keep praying, you might get your wish and the Palestinians will be wiped off the map and the Isralies that you opress won't have to worry about murderous suicide bobmbers and idiots who call themselves freedom fighters who are murdering scum. The civilized world knows that, civilized being the key word.
It's that exact mentality that keeps most of the Muslim world in the thrid world. Keep it up your people are doing swell. Kill any Christians or other infidels lately ? Yea what a great people. is it 1520 a.d still ? Well some places it is.
More from your war prayer.
Ahh so you wish the same consequences upon Jews as they faced from the Germans. Hmmm advocating another Holocaust. That's lovely what a peaceful people you are who deserve their own homeland......(in the Artic Circle)
You heard it here folks another fanatic who sides with Hitler and who wants to see another holocaust and yet reasonable people are supposed to negotiate with monsters like that. And Dennis supports them, how lovely for you all. Hitler, Naeem and their apologists, you're in good company.
Rob:
Have you been living inside a big, black lawn and leaf bag with the yellow ties all knotted up, or something?
Do you really think that the Israeli occupation over the past
decades hasn't entailed systematic brutality, outrageous human-rights violations, torture and murder?
And that terrorism in the region wasn't originally a Zionist tactic?
Do you honestly believe the world doesn't know this, and that international public opinion supports Israel, and not the Palestinian
liberation cause?
You're either ignorant of one of the cruelest realities of our time,
or you're just prevaricationg for partisan purposes.
Which is it?
If George Bush bucks world opinion and actually launches an aggressive war gainst Iraqi cities -- with all the devastating power our military has at its disposal -- the U.S. will terrorize (and kill) infinitely more innocent civilians than Palestinian extremists have done in Israel and the Occupied Territories.
Read that paragraph again.
Let it sink in.
Weigh its implication against everything you've ever been taught
America is supposed to stand for.
you have no clue what America stands for, Rahkonen.
http://www.israel-state-terrorism.org/
I posted this site before.
Spend some time tonight checking out just what Israel has really been doing.
Be sure to click on links from Israeli and Jewish groups
that oppose the occupation.
The key to the following is 'the mandate' which gave legitimacy to THE ARAB NATIONS>
What do people mean when they refer to 'The Occupied Territories' of the Middle East?
The 'Occupied Territories' refers to land lost by Israel's Arab neighbors, and gained by Israel, in the Six-Day
     War of 1967. They include Judaea and Samaria (previously occupied by Jordan, and now known as the 'West
     Bank'), the Golan Heights (previously occupied by Syria), and the Gaza Strip (previously occupied by Egypt). Interestingly, while these territories were conquered by Jordan, Syria and Egypt in 1948 to the time they were gained by Israel, the territories were not refered to as 'occupied' by the international community. Furthermore,
     the people living in those territories before 1967 were not called 'Palestinians' as they are today; they were
     called Jordanians and Egyptians. How things change...
- The Society for Rational Peace
Are these territories really 'occuppied'?
"Yesha [the "West Bank"] is not an 'occupied Arab land' but in fact an area of the Mandate which are to be
     dealt with in accordance with the terms of the Mandate." [That means that according to International law all
     Jewish settlements are legal as they are built according to Mandate's provision of "encouraging the close
     settlement in these areas by the Jews."]
"The Mandate does not provide for a separate Arab state to be created in Yesha." [Israel has much more right
     to Yesha than anybody else, according to International law, since Jordan, which captured Yesha in 1948 in an
     aggressive war against the young Jewish state, officially renounced all claims to Judea and Samaria in 1988].
- Australian lawyer David Singer, in his article "A Mandate for Peace," dedicated to the 75th anniversary of
     the promulgation by the League of Nations of the Mandate for Palestine,
In November of 1947, UN General Assembly resolution 181 was issued, recommending a "Plan of Partition"
     of Palestine. The Arabs rejected the resolution outright and Azzam Pasha, secretary-general of the Arab
     League, proclaimed that "the partition line shall be nothing but a line of fire and blood." The terrorist
     operations that began against Jewish targets on the day after the UN vote escalated into a full scale aggressive
     war against the newborn state. It was Jordan, and not Israel, that occupied the land of Judea and Samaria as a
     result of this war. Like the Romans, who changed the name Eretz Israel to Palestine in order to obliterate the
     name of the Jewish state from the memory of mankind, the Jordanians introduced the term "West Bank" trying
     to convince the world that they had always owned both banks of the Jordan river. When Israel liberated Judea
     and Samaria in 1967 justice was restored -- the only lawful owner of the land regained possession of it. It is
     ridiculous to say that Judea, Samaria and Gaza are "occupied territories" as these areas are, in fact, areas of
     the Mandate, where the Jews were and are encouraged to settle.
How did the phrase 'Occupied Territories' come into popular usage?
Legal scholars have debated for years whether the Fourth Geneva Convention even applies to the West Bank
     and Gaza. In fact, Arab diplomats have boasted that one of their key objectives immediately after the Six-Day
     War was to make the term "occupied territories" the standard nomenclature to describe these lands...
- John R. Bolton, Senior Vice President, American Enterprise Institute, July 14, 1999
http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/occupied.html
U.S. SHOULD NOT TERRORIZE INNOCENT IRAQI CITIZENS
A message to our members of Congress on Iraq:
We are your constituents, and we oppose a U.S. military attack on Iraq. We are counting on you to ask the difficult, unanswered questions:
1. What is the evidence of a clear and present danger?
2. What are the alternatives?
3. How many lives will be lost?
4. Is the timing -- just before the election -- intended to draw public attention away from troubling domestic issues (corporate criminality, degrading environmental policy)?
5. How can we claim any high moral ground when we:
a. Sold chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein in the 1980s?
b. Supported Iraq in its war against Iran, knowing that Iraq was using poisonous gas against Iran?
6. Why not spend the money on an international effort to assist the people of Iraq with food, shelter and education, so that they have the wherewithal to oppose Saddam?
Yes, we are horrified by the events of Sept. 11, 2001, and therefore, we cannot remain silent while our government proposes to terrorize the innocent citizens of Iraq with war.
--Mary Brill and Paul Scott, South Range (Duluth News Tribune letter)
Dennis
'prevaricationg' what the qqqq are you thinking??
Dennis. leftist socialists will create a world quite like Somalia and Iraq.
Dennis Rahkonen
Dennis I agree with you
The UN, Lead by France, should do it---i.e crush Iraq into the dust mite age. (For the simple reason that Iraq defied all rational requests from those who won the war). But NO you don't GIVE a FUCK about Iraqi's---let them be slave to Saddam---Slavery equals peace??? Dennis I hope you are young, otherwise you are fools, and dangerous fools at that.
We won---our rules rule--???
American lives should not be put at risk.
The French, like ewe, want to behave in a diplomatocriferous-Chamberlainian way? Was-Sup wit dat??
War is bloody madness.
It's violently destructive to children, flowers, and other living things.
It should never be entered into lightly.
I believe Dubya's reasons for going to war range in lightness somewhere between duck down and under-bed dust.
He says Saddam is an imminent threat to all humanity.
If that were truly so, you'd think Iraq's closest neighbors would be shivering in their boots. They don't feel endangered, at least not from that quarter. It's America that's got them scared to death.
Bush is telling a huge, dreadful lie, for three reasons:
1. This issue has suddenly been raised, weeks before a key election, to divert attention from administration failings and links to Enrongate corruption and sleaze.
2. America is embarked on an imperialist crusade to de-nationalize Iraqi oil and make it once again profitably available to major energy interests.
3. Bush is angling for decisive advantage in an inter-capitalist rivalry. Russia and France know this perfectly well, and are consequently erecting stumbling blocks.
Nobody should die for these machinations.
Not American kids just out of school, looking to begin their adult lives.
And certainly not the washerwomen and toddlers of Baghdad.
If you sincerely think this war is necessary, feel free to lead the charge against a people who'll be defending their country against foreign invasion with all the passion we'd muster if an aggressive power did it to us.
Ouch! Bullets hurt, don't they?
Just don't count on many of the rest of us being behind you.
Fact is Naeem that suicide bombers and terrorism have been going on for alot more than 2 years.
what ever but its still much lesser then more then 50 years old Israeli brutality.
you might get your wish and the Palestinians will be wiped off the map
care about your own country, US is bringing up a snake in form of Israel that will eventually couse an east/west US or north/south US :-)
It's that exact mentality that keeps most of the Muslim world in the thrid world
what mentality!! its a wide spread feeling that US is a future colonial power not only among muslims but also among lots of non-muslims communities and countries. US will certainly have to face the same end what previous colonialists had to face means east/west or north/south :-))
Ahh so you wish the same consequences upon Jews as they faced from the Germans. Hmmm advocating another Holocaust
There is not need for any wish or advocacy jewish are heading towords it by themselves :-)
Naeem,
It's that exact mentality that keeps most of the Muslim world in the thrid world
Ahh so all of their problems are our fault. You also fail miserbly to mention the times recently we have sent our soilders into danger to defend muslims. Serbia ring any bells ? I suppose we were being colonial then. The reason that many of the nations run by fanatic muslim rule are in the shape they are in is that they fail to adress their own problems within. Instead they prefer to balem everything on the Jews or the U.S instead of taking a look at the problems they have caused in their own nation.
Ahh so you wish the same consequences upon Jews as they faced from the Germans. Hmmm advocating another Holocaust
Nice try at slithering out of your racist statements. It's there in black and white a few posts back, and that's exactly why you'll never get support among the civilized world. You're an ignorant racist, plain and simple.
Dennis,
My opinions have nothing to do with partisan politics, different administrations have always supported Israel, R's and D's support Israel. It's not a partisan issue, it's one of humanity.
You are constantly implying that I think Israel is without sin. I don't believe they are, no country is, when you find one let me know. The same could be said for you, the Palestinains have done plenty of horrid things and yet you call their violence and intentionally killing children "imprudent" so you do the same, just from the other side. So to clear it up, here's why I do, I remind you that very recently I was fairly nuetral or undecided. Here's why I do support them or have little sympathy for their plight.
First and foremost it's Palestines tactics I abhore. Deliberately targeting civilians is a tactic that only compiles their woes. It takes people like me who were on the fence and makes the decision easy. A year ago I would have given serious consideration to a candidate if he/she wanted to end aid or curtail it to Israel. I no longer feel that way. I now see what is at stake for the people of Israel and the murderous thugs that they are up against.
Terrorism should NEVER NEVER NEVER be rewarded. And yet they are still willing to listen and even discuss a Palestinain state.
Among other prominent reasons I support them is that I don't see much willingness on the Palestinians side to compromise. And here I believe is where you miss the proverbial boat. They hate Jews and I mean hate in the strongest of terms. Do they have reason to ? Sure, but they also hated them long before there was the state of Israel and hated them long before 1948. They are taught it from a young age, they are taught to hate infidels (us and the Jews) from day one. Many are on record saying that they don't wish the Jews to even exist. How do you negotiate or why should you with someone who doesn't believe you have the right to exist.
As witnessed by Naeem's statements that level of hatred is clear, he essentially would be happy to see another holocaust to kill jews on a mass scale. You saw the post and yet said nothing, that says alot to me about where you stand and alot about you. The cause D'jour is more important to you. Naeem is not alone in those feelings and your silence is deafining simply because you support the Palestinians and yet you accuse me of turning a blind eye? Well pot, meet kettle.
That level of hatred is common, a hatred that existed for the people they call the infidel and yet we are supposed to negotiate or reason with people like that ? Not in my lifetime Dennis.
So we have Israel who absolutely has wronged Palestinians and we have Palestinians who have wronged the Jews. They kill Jews and they kill Palestinians. Israelie civilians deal daily with the threat of their kids being killed on the way to school by a homocide bomber, They have seen their country attacked from within. They have seen their children killed as have the Palestinains.
And yet I have never heard on Jewish leader call for an end to Palestinians even existing. I have never heard a Rabbi preaching that they are subhuman. I have never seen kids in school being taught that an entire race is evil. I have never seen a 14 year old Jewish boy being taught how to use explosives to insure maximum death when they unleash their suicide bomb. I have never seen a Jewish mother and father glad to see their son die or as a martyr in a useless war. I have never seen a Jewish leader take money from the people he claims to be helping. I have never seen a Jewish leader or Rabbi call for a holy war or refer to them as nonhumans. I have never seen Jews celebrating by the thousands when civilians are killed And lastly. I have never seen a Jew call or wish for a holocaust upon the Palestinains.
I can't say the same for Palestinans or their supporters.
Terrorism should NEVER NEVER NEVER be rewarded.---Luv2Fly
You do support Terrorism. Israel's state terrorism! you give them weaponse you run their economy you are feeding them you are harbouring them
I have never heard on Jewish leader call for an end to Palestinians even existing---Luv2Fly
Yup they don't call but do the same! have u ever seen a thief call to thieve??? crimes are always done silently and crimnals always try to hide his crime and Israel is doing the same.
I have seen lots of Israelis who call for peace and then kills hundreds innocent infants, childrens and women, I saw lots of jwesh who try to justify the brutal murderer of 7 innocent children by killing just one militant.
Luv2Fly! evil always try hid their crimes by beautifull faces, words and justification and Israel does the same
Sharon's responsibility for Israeli war crimes is being completely ignored. Who should be arrested for the targeted killing of almost 100 Palestinians? Who will be sent to jail for the killing of more than 120 Palestinian paramedics? Who will be sentenced for the killing of more than 1,200 Palestinians and for the collective punishment of more than 3,000,000 civilians during the last 18 months? And who will face the International Tribunal for the illegal settlement of occupied Palestinian Lands, and the disobedience of UN decisions for more than 35 years?
Suicide bombs killing innocent citizens must be unequivocally condemned; they are immoral acts, and their perpetrators should be sent to jail. But they cannot be compared to State terrorism carried out by the Israeli Government. The former are individual acts of despair of a people that sees no future, vastly ignored by an unfair and distorted international public opinion. The latter are cold and "rational" decisions of a State and a military apparatus of occupation, well equipped, financed and backed by the only superpower in the world.
Yet in the public debate, State terrorism and individual suicide bombs are not even considered as comparable cases of terrorism. The State terror and war crimes perpetrated by the Israeli Government are legitimized as "self-defense", while Arafat, even under siege, is demanded to arrest "terrorists."
I want to ask: Who will arrest Sharon, the person directly responsible for the orders to kill Palestinians? When is he going to be defined a terrorist too? How long will the world ignore the Palestinian cry that all they want is freedom and independence? When will it stop neglecting the fact that the goal of the Israeli Government is not security, but the continued OCCUPATION and SUBJUGATION of the Palestinian people?
--Dr. Lev Grinberg, a political sociologist, and Director of the Humphrey Institute for Social Research at Ben Gurion University