I take my rights and the rights of women very seriously... And when I am told that God is against abortion (when it is meantr the xian god, a deity I find repulsive in the extreme) I don't take it well...
I don't think there can be concensus... The only place would be in birth control, but a lot of fundies are against birth control on religious ground too....
??? I don't hate xians as long as they don't try to impose their weird beliefs on me... or come "witnessing" to my door... (they don't come a second time)
But if they try to impose their retarded creed on my body in a country where there should be NO establishment of religion, then beware!
Reason says the unborn child is a living human being from conception.
maybe your reason does. doesn't mean the rest of the world's does.
Put it this way. Everyone alive and walking around today was conceived. You couldn't be walking around if you weren't. The unborn child is developing and growing from the moment of conception. It is human and nothing but human although some intellectually dishonest people will attempt to argue otherwise. It is a being since it does have a seperate identity from its mother. Now you can ignore the logic but it is there.
Pitiricus. 7/24/02 4:40pmWell don't have an abortion... What another woman decides to do is no business of yours!
Sorry, sweetie. If you decide to beat the shit out of your kid I will do something about it. If you cause any unjust harm to another I will do what I can to stop it. And if you think pro-lifers are going away, you are sadly mistaken.
The first case concerns a child who is nursing and cannot survive without his mother's milk, being allergic to all other forms of nutrition. The mother, however, having become pregnant once again, sees that her milk has now ceased flowing. Here, where the issue is saving the life of a third party, as opposed to the pregnant woman herself, two different authorities mandate the performance of an abortion to save the life of the existing child.
You can simultaneously be pregnant and nurse a child. It happens often, just go to any lalecheleague meeting and ask anyone experienced in breastfeeding.
If you justify abortion with all the for-profit propaganda of Corporate Abortion America I will tell the facts. Abortion hurts women. Abortion kills, destroys lives and is a negative response to a temporary situation. Abortion perpetuates a careless lifestyle and promotes the occasion for disease by not doing a thing to address the real problem.
I vote and I vote pro-life. Get used to it. We are everywhere. BWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Furthermore, if you are angry and bitter and need some healing from the effects of your abortion, I will help you.
You can't tell me you have never wondered what your child would have looked like had you not aborted. You can't tell me you've never wondered. That is your conscience, dearie.
Your posts certainly reflect a bitter spirit. Maybe you should look at where all that is coming from.
??? I don't hate xians as long as they don't try to impose their weird beliefs on me... or come "witnessing" to my door... (they don't come a second time)
Yeah but you have to try to force your warped views on society.
But if they try to impose their retarded creed on my body in a country where there should be NO establishment of religion, then beware!
Obviously you have no clue about what the establishment of religion means.
Yes, like condemning people to an eternity in hell? How is that of benefit to anyone and how will it contribute to the good-will of brotherhood, Paula?
There are all types of personalities and his style might get the message thru to some whereas anothers style would not. I value his input.
If you read the papers lately, most Americans now disagree with you, and the poll numbers are sliding downward almost daily. It would seem that Bush has done fairly well leading the fight against Terrorism, but much as his father before him, economics is NOT his strong suit.
The polls will fluctuate. Yes, Bush has done well leading the fight against Terrorism. He is also doing much for the economy in such a time as this. Unfortunately, some things take time and with all the variables now, it could be even worse without Bush and the good men he has behind him to work on it all. When you keep those of the same mindset in office, you see the progress and the credit going to the right people.
Our country is going thru some very hard times, but it should not be dumped on the lap of our President and blamed solely on him.
btw, our law permits abortion up to the 14th week, after a counseling session for the woman.
that counseling has to be pro life, though. but if you really want an abortion, youd just go there, talk it through, and once one has the paper(about having been to counseling) abortion is possible.
So in Germany they perform abortions thru the 1st trimester. Where do the women go for abortions? Hospitals? Out Patient clinics?
Do you have Planned Parenthood organizations there?
In what way is the counseling Pro-life?
I have stated that I believe the laws should recognize that life begins at the moment of conception. Just as some laws exist which make it a crime to do harm to the baby in the womb, for example a pregnant lady taking drugs, and a drunk driver killing a woman pregnant charged with 2 deaths, etc.
I have had some friends in the most difficult of circumstances where everyone would think abortion is the best solution. These very brave women made it through their pregnancy period (now looking back the time is brief) and made the most positive decision by having their baby. Not for one moment do they ever have regrets.
In virtually every circumstance, abortion is unnecessary. Therefore, it should not be an option. Voluntarily killing your children should not be an option, in my opinion.
we probably have them:). just not sure what they are:)
well, the counseling centers on the child, on what it could be like to have an abortion, on what one could miss and on what one could be going through, afterwards.
most of it is done by protestant orgs and such. the catholic church does not give you any papers, but does offer counseling. of course there is not much point in going there for someone who really wants an abortion, therefore.
so they try to talk women out of having an abortion, but whatever the discussion there is like. when its over, you get the paper that youve done it, and then you can go see a doc and have an abortion. if its not too late, that is.
of course one can also go to NL. there its no problem as far as I know.
paula, to me its a decision the woman has to make. and I am sure noone does decide this easily, and who does, probably wouldnt be a responsible parent anyways.
I will post the pics of my best friends children one of the next days. she is a single mother, has two kids from different men(both left her when she was pregnant), she has no family to support her and still had both of them. not easy, of course. I was with her when her son was born:)
I couldnt imagine deciding against a child as it is today. but I do not feel I have the right to deny the freedom of choice to others, whatever the reason for their feelings may be.
I couldnt imagine someone regretting to have given life to a child. but even though sdomeone who has had an abortion might regret it later, I wouldnt deny them the choice.
"Who is Planned Parenthood? Planned Parenthood (PP) will tell you that birth control reduces abortion- but the facts say otherwise. Birth control fails miserably. Even the pro-birth control Alan Guttmacher Institue web site reports that "58% of women having abortions in 1995 had used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant."
PP touts it's sex ed programs, but these pragrams don't help kids, they hurt them. PP's own research has shown its sex ed programs caused a 50 % higher rate of sexual activity among teens. (1)
And did you know PP runs America's largest chain of abortion centers? That's right, PP sells abortions - a profitable backup when birth control fails. Every year, PP's abortions account for around 10 percent of the total U.S. toll of aborted babies. In its 1997-1998 annual report, PP admits to executing 165,174 abortions in 1991. (2)
PP also deceptively premotes itself as "privately funded." yet in 1997 alone, PP received $165 million of the U.S. public's tax money. (3)
(1) Louis Harris and Associates, American Teens Speak: Sex, Myths, TV and Birth Control. New York: Planned Parenthood Federation of America, 1986 p. 19 (2) Planned Parenthood Federation of America's 1997-1998 Annual Report (3) Ibid
Basically, they give contraceptive information and abortion services.
Those who are pro-life and support such organizations as "Right to Life" a Catholic pro-life counseling organization and others have no respect for Planned Parenthood because of the deception they use in coaxing young people into abortions and condoning sexual promiscuity.
* If a friend had an abortion, I would not berate them about it. I would be there to comfort them and help them get thru the depression and difficult times they face after abortion. But I would certainly put my opinion and wisdom to good use and say what I could in an effort to promote life and help see them thru the brief period of pregnancy, and after.
Many here have known each other for quite a few years and have been debating the issue for as long. I believe that's what Rick is refering to. It's been the same people with the same arguments with no one budging an inch (including you, Rick).
btw Rick, many don't think there is a middle ground on this issue.
Who is Planned Parenthood? Planned Parenthood (PP) will tell you that birth control reduces abortion- but the facts say otherwise. Birth control fails miserably.
mmmh....strange what is expected from birth control here. birth control isnt meant to reduce abortion, but to prevent a pregnancy. is how I see it.
and I wouldnt say birth control fails at all, when looking at what birth control really is meant to achieve: sex without getting pregnant.
of course there it a % of women who get pregnant for whatever reason even though theyve been on the pill. but not remarkable, Id say.
sex ed programs caused a 50 % higher rate of sexual activity among teens
would love to see the design that shows that these progranms were the CAUSE (as in causal relationship) there. I doubt it. plus Im all for sexual activity :)
PP sells abortions - a profitable backup when birth control fails
or to those who havent been using birth control, probably?
coaxing young people into abortions and condoning sexual promiscuity
"coaxing into" abortions? this sounds a little weird. buit I dont know this org, anyways.
Ill have to look up "promiscuity", though:), just a minute;)
no sensible org tells kids to have sex with as many different partners as possible, or even with many different at all, and wouldnt expect this one to either:)
Hi Kath... They are an outstanding organization which provides services for women who cannot afford them otherwise, from contraception to abortion... Also prenatal care...
The fundies in the States are against it... They seem to believe that without contraception, kids wouldn't have sex LOL!
Your reasoning is staright out of Woody Allen (every sperm is sacred)
If a fetus is left to develop, it will become a baby... If an acorn is planted it will become an oak... Doesn't mean that a fetus is a baby or an acorn is an oak...
Another idiotical argument by Paula (I must say I have seen a lot of idiocies from the anti-women who call themselves "pro life")
Abortions aren't profitable for the doctor... I paid $250 for mine, he would have gotten between $3000 and $6000 for pre-natal care...
And of course because I have money, I used the same ob-gyn that I used for my pregnancies for my abortion... Like all reputable ob-gyns (and he is an associate professor at a great university) he provides all services from contraception to abortion :-)
I don't know... I prefer other contraceptions, but I see abortion as a contraceptive means if the other fail...
OTH, I don't see that access to contraception will push kids to have sex... Their hormones will, and all we can do is to teach them... and hope for the best!
But if there is a pregnancy, then provide an abortion ASAP!
See it from this angle. pitiricus does nothing all day but post. He is posting here at literally the same time posting in NYT. God knows where else he is posting at the same time.
And he does this literally e v e r y d a y. and has been for years.
Now. see. Anything he does to try to irritate you is the last and only way he can get others to talk back to him.
So dont get mad at his biligerence. Feel sorry for pitiricus. He is not deserving of your anger, but of your pity.
Not so mindless. Since brainwaves can be recorded at 42days, and at that time the baby has a complete skeleton and reflexes, the child in the womb hardly qualifies as being mindless by the time it is ripped to shreds from the womb.
I take my rights and the rights of women very seriously... And when I am told that God is against abortion (when it is meantr the xian god, a deity I find repulsive in the extreme) I don't take it well...
My, aren't you just a ray of sunshine.
And of course, here is the reason why women should be very suspicious of any xian argument against abortion!
http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/women.html
Rick 7/25/02 12:06pm
I don't think there can be concensus... The only place would be in birth control, but a lot of fundies are against birth control on religious ground too....
JT:
One of your heros, a computer mischief maker was in abortion news this week.
It seems a judge ordered some guy to stop buying up URLs similar to large companies and linking them to anti-abortion sites.
I'm not sure where he's from, but it's probably Florida.
Now I get it, Piti.
This is more about your hatred of Christians than it is about abortion.
One of your heros, a computer mischief maker was in abortion news this week.
Come on Rick. Play nice now.
I'm not sure where he's from, but it's probably Florida.
I think he's from Minnesota actually.
I agree with the judge btw.
THX 1138 7/25/02 12:15pm
??? I don't hate xians as long as they don't try to impose their weird beliefs on me... or come "witnessing" to my door... (they don't come a second time)
But if they try to impose their retarded creed on my body in a country where there should be NO establishment of religion, then beware!
I wouldn't be surprised if the guy ignored the judge and went right back to doing what he was doing.
I wouldn't be surprised if the guy ignored the judge and went right back to doing what he was doing.
Then the judge should throw him in jail and those companies should sue him for all he's got.
Also think: with which countries do you want to bea assocciated? The UK or Afganistan?
http://www.womenonwaves.org/e/e_laws.html
Pitiricus. 7/25/02 12:20pm
Yeah, no hatred there whatsoever.
:-)
One day I'll try to buy a polo shirt at the LL Bean Web site and instead end up staring at an aborted fetus in a jar.
Strange world. Somebody ought to sell tickets.
Pitiricus
That has a Latin ring to it. Is it somebody we should know?
Like Scipio Africanus?
Nah it isn't Martin, He's still over on the Strib website spreading lies and wild conspiracy theories and insulting people.
This person is just insulting people.
Do a search on Pitiricus. (notice the period).
Check out her posts on the WOT thread.
They speak for themselves.
Rick 7/25/02 12:44pm
It was a nickname I got when I started to study latin, a long time ago...
Luv2Fly 7/25/02 12:56pm
I rather like Scipio Africanus... He did beat Hannibal!
Hello, my, my it has been busy here today!
Abortion stops a beating heart. That's all your conscience needs to know to determine abortion is murder.
Rick 7/25/02 12:15pm
Who are you talking about Rick?
Do you have a link I can read, I am interested to find out who this person is.
From what you've said (in previous posts) I think the judge did the right thing.
Reason says the unborn child is a living human being from conception.
maybe your reason does. doesn't mean the rest of the world's does.
Put it this way. Everyone alive and walking around today was conceived. You couldn't be walking around if you weren't. The unborn child is developing and growing from the moment of conception. It is human and nothing but human although some intellectually dishonest people will attempt to argue otherwise. It is a being since it does have a seperate identity from its mother. Now you can ignore the logic but it is there.
To Pitiricus: -
prove also that God does not exist, that the soul does not exists and that there is not a Hell..
I am waiting... you hypocritical....
Sorry, sweetie. If you decide to beat the shit out of your kid I will do something about it. If you cause any unjust harm to another I will do what I can to stop it. And if you think pro-lifers are going away, you are sadly mistaken.
You can simultaneously be pregnant and nurse a child. It happens often, just go to any lalecheleague meeting and ask anyone experienced in breastfeeding.
Welcome to La Leche League International http://www.lalecheleague.org
If you justify abortion with all the for-profit propaganda of Corporate Abortion America I will tell the facts. Abortion hurts women. Abortion kills, destroys lives and is a negative response to a temporary situation. Abortion perpetuates a careless lifestyle and promotes the occasion for disease by not doing a thing to address the real problem.
I vote and I vote pro-life. Get used to it. We are everywhere. BWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Furthermore, if you are angry and bitter and need some healing from the effects of your abortion, I will help you.
You can't tell me you have never wondered what your child would have looked like had you not aborted. You can't tell me you've never wondered. That is your conscience, dearie.
Your posts certainly reflect a bitter spirit. Maybe you should look at where all that is coming from.
Piti, You are one angry, attacking, and bitter person.
Yes, JT she is. She wrote the following:
Probably because I said I was Jewish... This is the goodxian fundie reaction :-)
Real funny. Accusing JT of bigotry. What a jerk you are Piti.
An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.
Sounds like the definitiion of Pitiricus.
??? I don't hate xians as long as they don't try to impose their weird beliefs on me... or come "witnessing" to my door... (they don't come a second time)
Yeah but you have to try to force your warped views on society.
But if they try to impose their retarded creed on my body in a country where there should be NO establishment of religion, then beware!
Obviously you have no clue about what the establishment of religion means.
'Bill - Fold' 7/25/02 2:26am
Hello Bill!
There are all types of personalities and his style might get the message thru to some whereas anothers style would not. I value his input.
The polls will fluctuate. Yes, Bush has done well leading the fight against Terrorism. He is also doing much for the economy in such a time as this. Unfortunately, some things take time and with all the variables now, it could be even worse without Bush and the good men he has behind him to work on it all.
When you keep those of the same mindset in office, you see the progress and the credit going to the right people.
Our country is going thru some very hard times, but it should not be dumped on the lap of our President and blamed solely on him.
OK.....so what is it thats being discussed here? :)
not persecuting abortions?
giving every woman the choice if she wants to have an abortion or not?
forbidding abortion totally?
allowing abortion in some cases?
or what?
seems to be that some are absolutely against abortion, no matter what the circumstances are, and some are for free choice without any restraints. (?)
If you're looking for middle ground, forget it, Kath.
But if you find a group that actually is interested in that, point the way.
There is no middle ground. If you think there is you are fooling yourself.
Rick 7/25/02 3:35pm
well. just asking:)
btw, our law permits abortion up to the 14th week, after a counseling session for the woman.
that counseling has to be pro life, though. but if you really want an abortion, youd just go there, talk it through, and once one has the paper(about having been to counseling) abortion is possible.
jethro bodine 7/25/02 3:44pm
There is no middle ground. If you think there is you are fooling yourself.
This right here may be why you, and the Pitster, are apparentlywell-matched (Jell-O™ wrestlin' at 11, folks ;o)
kath f. 7/25/02 3:48pm
The dignity of humans is unquestionable!
Hi Kath! Fancy meeting you over here!
So in Germany they perform abortions thru the 1st trimester. Where do the women go for abortions? Hospitals? Out Patient clinics?
Do you have Planned Parenthood organizations there?
In what way is the counseling Pro-life?
I have stated that I believe the laws should recognize that life begins at the moment of conception. Just as some laws exist which make it a crime to do harm to the baby in the womb, for example a pregnant lady taking drugs, and a drunk driver killing a woman pregnant charged with 2 deaths, etc.
I have had some friends in the most difficult of circumstances where everyone would think abortion is the best solution. These very brave women made it through their pregnancy period (now looking back the time is brief) and made the most positive decision by having their baby. Not for one moment do they ever have regrets.
In virtually every circumstance, abortion is unnecessary. Therefore, it should not be an option. Voluntarily killing your children should not be an option, in my opinion.
Paula I 7/25/02 4:13pm
what do "planned parenthood orgs" do?
we probably have them:). just not sure what they are:)
well, the counseling centers on the child, on what it could be like to have an abortion, on what one could miss and on what one could be going through, afterwards.
most of it is done by protestant orgs and such. the catholic church does not give you any papers, but does offer counseling. of course there is not much point in going there for someone who really wants an abortion, therefore.
so they try to talk women out of having an abortion, but whatever the discussion there is like. when its over, you get the paper that youve done it, and then you can go see a doc and have an abortion. if its not too late, that is.
of course one can also go to NL. there its no problem as far as I know.
paula, to me its a decision the woman has to make. and I am sure noone does decide this easily, and who does, probably wouldnt be a responsible parent anyways.
I will post the pics of my best friends children one of the next days. she is a single mother, has two kids from different men(both left her when she was pregnant), she has no family to support her and still had both of them. not easy, of course. I was with her when her son was born:)
I couldnt imagine deciding against a child as it is today.
but I do not feel I have the right to deny the freedom of choice to others, whatever the reason for their feelings may be.
I couldnt imagine someone regretting to have given life to a child. but even though sdomeone who has had an abortion might regret it later, I wouldnt deny them the choice.
Paula I 7/25/02 4:13pm
WOW:)
how colourful:)
kath f. 7/25/02 4:26pm
what do "planned parenthood orgs" do?
Depending on who you ask they do different things.
http://lovematters.com
from volume 1, 1999 edition, page 23
"Who is Planned Parenthood? Planned Parenthood (PP) will tell you that birth control reduces abortion- but the facts say otherwise. Birth control fails miserably. Even the pro-birth control Alan Guttmacher Institue web site reports that "58% of women having abortions in 1995 had used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant."
PP touts it's sex ed programs, but these pragrams don't help kids, they hurt them. PP's own research has shown its sex ed programs caused a 50 % higher rate of sexual activity among teens. (1)
And did you know PP runs America's largest chain of abortion centers? That's right, PP sells abortions - a profitable backup when birth control fails. Every year, PP's abortions account for around 10 percent of the total U.S. toll of aborted babies. In its 1997-1998 annual report, PP admits to executing 165,174 abortions in 1991. (2)
PP also deceptively premotes itself as "privately funded." yet in 1997 alone, PP received $165 million of the U.S. public's tax money. (3)
(1) Louis Harris and Associates, American Teens Speak: Sex, Myths, TV and Birth Control. New York: Planned Parenthood Federation of America, 1986 p. 19
(2) Planned Parenthood Federation of America's 1997-1998 Annual Report
(3) Ibid
Basically, they give contraceptive information and abortion services.
Those who are pro-life and support such organizations as "Right to Life" a Catholic pro-life counseling organization and others have no respect for Planned Parenthood because of the deception they use in coaxing young people into abortions and condoning sexual promiscuity.
* If a friend had an abortion, I would not berate them about it. I would be there to comfort them and help them get thru the depression and difficult times they face after abortion. But I would certainly put my opinion and wisdom to good use and say what I could in an effort to promote life and help see them thru the brief period of pregnancy, and after.
Kath & Mark,
Welcome! Good to see new faces here.
Many here have known each other for quite a few years and have been debating the issue for as long. I believe that's what Rick is refering to. It's been the same people with the same arguments with no one budging an inch (including you, Rick).
btw Rick, many don't think there is a middle ground on this issue.
Paula I 7/25/02 5:02pm
mmmh....strange what is expected from birth control here. birth control isnt meant to reduce abortion, but to prevent a pregnancy. is how I see it.
and I wouldnt say birth control fails at all, when looking at what birth control really is meant to achieve: sex without getting pregnant.
of course there it a % of women who get pregnant for whatever reason even though theyve been on the pill. but not remarkable, Id say.
would love to see the design that shows that these progranms were the CAUSE (as in causal relationship) there. I doubt it. plus Im all for sexual activity :)
or to those who havent been using birth control, probably?
"coaxing into" abortions? this sounds a little weird. buit I dont know this org, anyways.
Ill have to look up "promiscuity", though:), just a minute;)
THX 1138 7/25/02 5:10pm
hi THX.
like how?
no sensible org tells kids to have sex with as many different partners as possible, or even with many different at all, and wouldnt expect this one to either:)
kath f. 7/25/02 4:26pm
Hi Kath... They are an outstanding organization which provides services for women who cannot afford them otherwise, from contraception to abortion... Also prenatal care...
The fundies in the States are against it... They seem to believe that without contraception, kids wouldn't have sex LOL!
Paula I 7/25/02 2:01pm
So does killing a chicken... And a chicken has more personhood than a fetus...
Abortion isn't murder as murder is defined as unlawful killing... Abortion is legal and will remain so (well women vote)
You are against abortion? Don't have one!
jethro bodine 7/25/02 2:25pm
Your reasoning is staright out of Woody Allen (every sperm is sacred)
If a fetus is left to develop, it will become a baby... If an acorn is planted it will become an oak... Doesn't mean that a fetus is a baby or an acorn is an oak...
LOL!
Pitiricus. 7/25/02 5:59pm
well, sounds as if it is an organization aiming at the needs in present day life, after all.
well, guess we both think differently, on the assumed causal relationship between contraception and sex, then:)
jethro bodine 7/25/02 2:27pm
Sorry pal... You don't prove a negative... OTH if you go on telling there exists such entities, prove they exist!
Paula I 7/25/02 2:27pm
Sorry sweetie... Until the fetus is born, you have no business doing anything... The case law is quite clear... Rights are given to BORN people...
As to your La Leche idiocy, take it with the rabbis who think that born people are so much more important than a mindless mass of cells...
Another idiotical argument by Paula (I must say I have seen a lot of idiocies from the anti-women who call themselves "pro life")
Abortions aren't profitable for the doctor... I paid $250 for mine, he would have gotten between $3000 and $6000 for pre-natal care...
And of course because I have money, I used the same ob-gyn that I used for my pregnancies for my abortion... Like all reputable ob-gyns (and he is an associate professor at a great university) he provides all services from contraception to abortion :-)
kath f. 7/25/02 6:03pm
I don't know... I prefer other contraceptions, but I see abortion as a contraceptive means if the other fail...
OTH, I don't see that access to contraception will push kids to have sex... Their hormones will, and all we can do is to teach them... and hope for the best!
But if there is a pregnancy, then provide an abortion ASAP!
See it from this angle. pitiricus does nothing all day but post. He is posting here at literally the same time posting in NYT. God knows where else he is posting at the same time.
And he does this literally e v e r y d a y. and has been for years.
Now. see. Anything he does to try to irritate you is the last and only way he can get others to talk back to him.
So dont get mad at his biligerence. Feel sorry for pitiricus. He is not deserving of your anger, but of your pity.
Pitiricus. 7/25/02 6:05pm
Not so mindless. Since brainwaves can be recorded at 42days, and at that time the baby has a complete skeleton and reflexes, the child in the womb hardly qualifies as being mindless by the time it is ripped to shreds from the womb.
try again.....