What is abortion but a form of contraception? Again, other forms may be preferable, but it does exactly waht contraception does, prevent a pregnancy from coming to term :-)
Of course this mantra of "becauswe our kids have birth control, they will be promiscuous" is completely stupid... and probably the reason why abortion rates are in the US twice the level they are in Europe, where kids have good sex education and access to contraception in schools...
BTW, both France and the UK now give the MAP in schools... It also is done in Canada I think and is being tried now in some states (California I think)
You know, when you say the anti-women the truth, they start insulting... All reputable ob-gyns do abortions... It is part of the services they provide...
My friend in NY has one who is associate professor of gynecology at Columbia, and she also provides abortions...
I guess this one goes against the fable of abortion mills!
Well you wouldn't believe, but in part of the States (mostly rural areas of the Bible belt) there is no sex education in school except the preaching of abstinence... Guess what happens there? The highest rates of abortions and divorces... :-)
Not really, but in each community clinic around... It is very safe, very effective and is better tolerated by women than surgical abortions...
I am very proud of the French government, that it didn't capitulate to the anti-women, and called it the "sacred trust of women" and ordered Roussel-Uclaf to market it...
of course not. a person being given RO 486 needs a doc, and its not that much of a pleasure, btw(as an abortion never is, btw, also a reason why its not so easily being chosen. ya know.
thats amazing:) but I did read(another topic, of course) that there even are regions where evolution is not accepted as a part of the curriculum, for religious reasons
There are quite a few religious nts that are opposed to MAP... Oh well, I guess they all have seen people that are not visible except with a microscope...
Religion has really the potential to addle one's brain!
havent been through childbirth myself, but with a friend, when her son was born. not THAT great, during labour, for her:). and her pregnancy was weird as well, with contractions for months and all.
Well my abortion (first trimester) took exactly 30 minutes... And it was cramps like a heavy period...
Much better than 9 months of nausea and a day of contractions (my first)...
And we come back to the really big argument: a woman has the right to decide what happens to her body and consent to sex isn't consent to pregnancy... :-)
"The number of hospitals, clinics and physicians' offices that provide abortions - 2,380 in 1992 - has been declining at a rate of about 65 a year. Most of the decline has occurred among hospitals; the number providing abortions decreased by 18% between 1988 and 1992. Most U.S. counties (84%) have no known abortion provider, and in non metropolitan areas, 94% of counties have no provider. Among metropolitan areas 33% have either no provider or none that serves at least 50 women per year." Study by the Alan Guttmacher Institute
"[C]urrently only 12% of ob/gyn residency programs require training in abortion." Abortion Training, Ob/Gyn Residency Programs, and the ACGME The Newsletter of Medical Students For Choice, Fall 1995, pg. 1.
was posting? I even remember posts where she was saying that she was talking with her aborted child (ansd was asked by e-mail or snail mail... LOL) "It is the policy of Planned Parenthood Federation of America to assure that all individuals have the freedom to make reproductive decisions. In order to enable the individual to make and implement a responsible decision, there should be access to information and services related to sexuality, reproduction, methods of contraception, fertility control, and parenthood. Furthermore, Planned Parenthood asserts that both parenthood and nonparenthood are valid personal decisions. [Adopted 1984]
Reproductive freedom—the fundamental right of every individual to decide freely and responsibly when and whether to have a child—is a reaffirmation of the principle of individual liberty cherished by most people worldwide. It helps ensure that children will be wanted and loved, that families will be strong and secure, and that choice rather than chance will guide the future of humanity.
Reasonable people everywhere agree that no woman should be forced to bear children; no family should be threatened with economic ruin as a result of unintended pregnancy; and no person should ignore the consequences of unwanted pregnancies.
Reproductive freedom encompasses:
the right to privacy, especially in human relationships; the right to education and information that empower individuals to make informed decisions about sexuality and reproduction; and the right to nondiscriminatory access to confidential, comprehensive reproductive health care services. A supportive public climate is necessary to ensure these rights for all individuals worldwide. Public policies and the manner in which they are implemented should enhance these rights.
Planned Parenthood recognizes its responsibilities to encourage such a supportive public climate. [Adopted 1989]
Universal Access to Services The deepest roots of the concept of family planning lie at the beginning of human history, when women and men first attempted to prevent unwanted pregnancy and childbearing with amulets, incantations, and a variety of devices and substances.
Today, in the United States, acceptance of family planning is so profound and widespread that it is difficult to comprehend how short a time has passed since those who fought for access to family planning services were publicly ridiculed and even jailed.
In the decades since safe and legal family planning services became available in the United States, maternal and infant health have improved dramatically, the infant death rate has plummeted; and the gap between the number of children desired and the number born has narrowed for couples in every income bracket. There have been similar improvements in the health and welfare of individuals in other nations in which there is widespread access to family planning services.
As a result, most individuals and governments worldwide recognize that family planning services are vital to the elevation of human existence. Such services are the means by which individuals may exercise their fundamental right to make informed, independent decisions about reproduction. Further, without family planning, little can be achieved in health care, education, economic progress, land management, conquering world hunger, or reducing other population pressures. Women, especially, recognize that they cannot take control of their lives without first taking control of their fertility.
All individuals worldwide have the right to nondiscriminatory, confidential access to the full range of voluntary reproductive health care services that are proven safe and effective. These services:
should include contraception, sterilization, abortion, fertility enhancement, and prevention and treatment of sexually transmitted diseases; should be offered through efficient, effective, and innovative programs that preserve individual rights and privacy; and should enable individuals to have children when and if they are ready—physically, emotionally, and financially. Planned Parenthood recognizes its responsibility to provide reproductive and complementary health care services through its network of affiliates nationwide, and to ensure that such services are offered worldwide in other diverse settings, including public health facilities, private medical practitioners' offices, and community-based distribution programs.
Planned Parenthood advocates vigorous research to develop and evaluate the safety and effectiveness of new fertility management technologies"
" Faced with attacks by some antiabortion activists, many physicians have shied away from performing abortions, but for the female and male doctors profiled in the March issue of Glamour magazine, that very reason is what pushes them to provide abortion services. In some respects, abortion opponents' "intimidation seems to be working," as the number of places where a woman can obtain a legal abortion dropped from 2,908 in 1982 to 2,042 in 1996. Further, from 1992-1996 -- the period "that saw the biggest upswing in attacks on abortion clinics and physicians" -- the number of abortion providers fell by 14%. But in 1993, Dr. Jody Steinauer founded Medical Students for Choice, an organization that encourages and supports future abortion providers. The organization now has 5,000 members and is hosted by 90 medical school campuses in the United States and Canada. In addition to providing moral support for students and residents who might face intimidation tactics from antiabortion extremist groups, the organization has pushed for accessible abortion training for medical residents. Glamour profiled several future abortion providers and questioned them about their commitment to choice"
Of course some are frightened by the thugs of operation rescue or the followers of this idiot Robertson, but most reputable ob-gyn provide abortions... in their office...
probably in the middle of hicktown in babble country, this may be false... But for mostr women it is still available...
A Medical Students for Choice organization with 5,000 members --- that's where you're placing all your hope? Seriously, what reputable doctor wants to execute human beings? Also, what intelligent medical student with any potential wants to settle for being a scum bag abortionist who is detested by a large percentage of the population? Is it any wonder the number of abortionists is on the decline?
I can face it by: a) having the child. b) not having the child.
men having to face the "consequence": well, thats when the woman decided to have the child(and dont forget, thats what YOU want, for each and every man and woman who stumble into a pregnacy they didnt want). and what does he have to do? wait for the child to be born and then pay. not walking all night when the baby cant sleep, not feeding it every couple hours(in the best case), not having it around him 24/7....
and a LOT of them runs when they dont want the child! ya know, my friend I talked about, actually has to prove that the man is the father, with going to court and all, the guy cant be found though. great, huh. with men facing the consequence..... its my friend, who takes care of her kids, its me and two others taking care of the kids together with her. you think 150$ per month is enough to support a child? think again.
can one balance the costs, there, at all? I dont think so!
and yes, if the man happened to have unprotected sex with a woman(and every man is absolutely capable of using a condom, if he doesnt want a child with her, and if a condom is properly used, it doesnt break)and the woman decides to have the child, he is to pay. he has done it to the body of another person. and dealing with if he is to have responsibility over a child or not, is for the woman, then. my take...
no way does he ever pay enough to make up for the work he doesnt want and isnt doing, usually.
so bottom line: you f... a woman and she gets pregnant. you are at her mercy.
its not your body, its not your risk. the consequence for BOTH if she has the child are costs, money on one side, and money and an ABSOLUTELY ALTERED WAY OF LIFE for the woman.
"to. It's been the same people with the same arguments with no one budging an inch (including you, Rick)."
That's wrong. I've always said that the issue has been hijacked by extreme views on both sides.
I think it's a worthy goal to reduce the number of abortions. But to do so the leadership of the two extreme ends of this issue have to establish some goals and take some steps to get there. And that involves compromises. The woman from Germany says that the woman has 14 weeks there. That's a compromise.
"btw Rick, many don't think there is a middle ground on this issue."
Which is why the country is stuck in the throes of this bitter, divisive front in a cultural war. This thread is just a very tiny skirmish point in a very large battle. Most of the time it's angry and personal.
"It's not good for women to go through the procedure (abortion) and have something living sucked out of their bodies. It belittles women. Even though some women say, "Oh, I don't mind to have one," every time a woman has an abortion, it just crushes her self-esteem smaller and smaller and smaller." - Dolores O'Riordan - Lead Vocalist, The Cranberries.
Source: You! magazine June/July 1996
* Self respect and self esteem are issues worth exploring when it comes to abortion.
paula, i find your arguments agains abortion, citing the emotional damage done to women afterwards, as being somewhat hypocritical (in general). frequently, we hear complaints from the right that the left if doing far too much to try and protect us from ourselves (and in all fairness, this probably goes the other way as well). but in using that as an argument to criminalise abortion, aren't you doing just that? trying to protect a woman from herself? and don't worry, i'll be the first one in line to criticise anyone who makes it a goal to protect me from myself.
"Recent large studies, particularly cohort studies, generally show no association between breast cancer risk and previously recorded spontaneous or induced abortions. In a large-scale epidemiologic study reported in The New England Journal of Medicine in 1997, researchers compared data from Danish health registries that included 1.5 million women and more than 10,000 cases of breast cancer. The registry data on abortions was collected before the diagnosis of breast cancer was made. After adjusting the data for several established breast cancer risk factors, the authors found that induced abortions have no overall effect on the risk of breast cancer. The strengths of this study include its large size, the ability to account for breast cancer risk factors that may differ between women who have had abortions and those who have not, and the availability of information on abortion"...
The fact tha women who had abortions are not more at risk to suicide is documented by the large-scale study of the APA
"-- Social scientists have known for years that the availability of legal abortion is not associated with long-term psychological distress in women who use it. An eight-year longitudinal study involving nearly 5,300 young women published in 1992 found that the best predictor of well-being in women over the course of the study was their well-being at the start of the study, not their income level, job status, level of education or martial status or -- quite specifically -- whether they had had an abortion. Now a new follow-up study, published in the current edition of the American Psychological Association's (APA) journal Professional Psychology: Research and Practice finds that the same conclusion still applies regardless of religious or racial differences."
I don't have too much sympathy for the deviant creed named Christianity... But Christians? Who cares what they believe? I don'Lt...
I think they may call that bigotry.
Now when they try to impose prayers in schools, or their theology as law, this is quite different...
They being your neighbors should have some ssay in what goes on in their schools. Instead fascists like you, Piti, do what you can to prevent such input. You must be a product of public scholl or you would understand the Constitution was never meant to prevent locals from having prayer in school.
I don't have too much sympathy for the deviant creed named Christianity...
Nice, People have said the same of your creed as well, their called racists. Well at least your true hate filled colors are shining through. Have a nice day racist.
Sorry pal... You don't prove a negative... OTH if you go on telling there exists such entities, prove they exist!
Just look around you and ask yourself how can this be. Even you are a miracle. A hateful and possibly evil miracle but I am sure God is using you for some purpose.
aren't you doing just that? trying to protect a woman from herself? and don't worry, i'll be the first one in line to criticise anyone who makes it a goal to protect me from myself.
Pitiricus. 7/25/02 6:10pm
mmmh...abortion isnt contraception to me. but then, thats another topic:)
however, I also dont think birth control pushes anyone to have sex.
this is what Rick said of the loser pitiricuss.
Its not you. Its him. Its in pitiricus blood. To irritate and get you to pay attention to him.
Dont let him get you angry as he is provoking you. But do express your sympathy for him. Maybe thats all pitiricus is looking for.
kath f. 7/25/02 6:16pm
What is abortion but a form of contraception? Again, other forms may be preferable, but it does exactly waht contraception does, prevent a pregnancy from coming to term :-)
Of course this mantra of "becauswe our kids have birth control, they will be promiscuous" is completely stupid... and probably the reason why abortion rates are in the US twice the level they are in Europe, where kids have good sex education and access to contraception in schools...
BTW, both France and the UK now give the MAP in schools... It also is done in Canada I think and is being tried now in some states (California I think)
What happens in Germany?
knowing pritiricus, he is here because he thinks the majority here will be women, thats his intention.
he thinks his smart this way to get women to pay attention to him, but his actions says pitiricus is nothing but an irritating loser.
Paula I 7/25/02 6:15pm
from http://www.thenewrepublic.com/013100/easterbrook013100.html
The brain "fires up" only at about 22-26 weeks... which mean that until then it is mindless...
And contrarily to the screams of the anti-women, there are very few abortions after the 22-26th week of gestation...
holdthestringasiwalkaway 7/25/02 6:11pm
Pity poor Piti? I have been.
Pitiricus. 7/25/02 6:21pm
You call that a reputable source of information?
Pitiricus. 7/25/02 6:10pm
$250 for the amt. of time spent on you was a profit.
Reputable? BWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Paula I 7/25/02 6:21pm
You know, when you say the anti-women the truth, they start insulting... All reputable ob-gyns do abortions... It is part of the services they provide...
My friend in NY has one who is associate professor of gynecology at Columbia, and she also provides abortions...
I guess this one goes against the fable of abortion mills!
Pitiricus. 7/25/02 6:19pm
oops:(...lacking an abbreviation again.
whats MAP? :)
what we have here is: in school safer sex is being introduced, of course. thats the same everywhere, I guess.
every girl can go see a doc and from I think 16 on they get birth control for free(pill, whatever)without the parents being informed, as well.
kath f. 7/25/02 6:25pm
Morning after pill...
RU 486 shold be available in gumball machines
kath f. 7/25/02 6:25pm
Well you wouldn't believe, but in part of the States (mostly rural areas of the Bible belt) there is no sex education in school except the preaching of abstinence... Guess what happens there? The highest rates of abortions and divorces... :-)
Ferrous Pegs 7/25/02 6:28pm
Not really, but in each community clinic around... It is very safe, very effective and is better tolerated by women than surgical abortions...
I am very proud of the French government, that it didn't capitulate to the anti-women, and called it the "sacred trust of women" and ordered Roussel-Uclaf to market it...
Bye Kath! Going to WOT.
BTW, Paula doesn't like the New Republic as a source of information... I guess she prefers the fairy tales of A SEM-GOD
lol!
Pitiricus. 7/25/02 6:25pm
Oh, yes, a morning after pill is an option, for example. though they do not like to give it(quite a hammer).
a friend of mine got it when a condom broke, for example.
RU 486 is legal here, and is being used as a means of abortion. if someone is not too far in the pregnancy already, and if the papers are there.
Ferrous Pegs 7/25/02 6:28pm
of course not. a person being given RO 486 needs a doc, and its not that much of a pleasure, btw(as an abortion never is, btw, also a reason why its not so easily being chosen. ya know.
hi ferrous:)
Pitiricus. 7/25/02 6:28pm
thats amazing:) but I did read(another topic, of course) that there even are regions where evolution is not accepted as a part of the curriculum, for religious reasons
kath f. 7/25/02 6:39pm
kansas... But this was reversed...
They want to teach what they call the young earth theory... Believe me the contortions they are doing are quite remarkable...
Well yes, abortion isn't such a picnic, but you know, compared to pregnancy and childbirth it's nothing :-)
BTW Kath...
There are quite a few religious nts that are opposed to MAP... Oh well, I guess they all have seen people that are not visible except with a microscope...
Religion has really the potential to addle one's brain!
Pitiricus. 7/25/02 6:41pm
guess so:)
havent been through childbirth myself, but with a friend, when her son was born. not THAT great, during labour, for her:). and her pregnancy was weird as well, with contractions for months and all.
even though it went fast. 5 hours, that was it:)
kath f. 7/25/02 6:47pm
Well my abortion (first trimester) took exactly 30 minutes... And it was cramps like a heavy period...
Much better than 9 months of nausea and a day of contractions (my first)...
And we come back to the really big argument: a woman has the right to decide what happens to her body and consent to sex isn't consent to pregnancy... :-)
Pitiricus. 7/25/02 6:49pm
Important point! :)
kath f. 7/25/02 7:06pm
The problem of course is that for a lot of fundies, sex is only OK if it leads to reproduction (this is actually also the position of the RCC)...
Well, their choice.... But not mine...
Pitiricus. 7/25/02 6:24pm
False.
"The number of hospitals, clinics and physicians' offices that provide abortions - 2,380 in 1992 - has been declining at a rate of about 65 a year. Most of the decline has occurred among hospitals; the number providing abortions decreased by 18% between 1988 and 1992. Most U.S. counties (84%) have no known abortion provider, and in non metropolitan areas, 94% of counties have no provider. Among metropolitan areas 33% have either no provider or none that serves at least 50 women per year." Study by the Alan Guttmacher Institute
"[C]urrently only 12% of ob/gyn residency programs require training in abortion." Abortion Training, Ob/Gyn Residency Programs, and the ACGME The Newsletter of Medical Students For Choice, Fall 1995, pg. 1.
See
http://students.haverford.edu/wmbweb/writings/rcabortion.html
Paula I 7/25/02 5:02pm
You quote lovematters? This site where this nut http://www.priestsforlife.org/testimony/hollydutton.htm
was posting? I even remember posts where she was saying that she was talking with her aborted child (ansd was asked by e-mail or snail mail... LOL)
"It is the policy of Planned Parenthood Federation of America to assure that all individuals have the freedom to make reproductive decisions. In order to enable the individual to make and implement a responsible decision, there should be access to information and services related to sexuality, reproduction, methods of contraception, fertility control, and parenthood. Furthermore, Planned Parenthood asserts that both parenthood and nonparenthood are valid personal decisions.
[Adopted 1984]
Reproductive freedom—the fundamental right of every individual to decide freely and responsibly when and whether to have a child—is a reaffirmation of the principle of individual liberty cherished by most people worldwide. It helps ensure that children will be wanted and loved, that families will be strong and secure, and that choice rather than chance will guide the future of humanity.
Reasonable people everywhere agree that no woman should be forced to bear children; no family should be threatened with economic ruin as a result of unintended pregnancy; and no person should ignore the consequences of unwanted pregnancies.
Reproductive freedom encompasses:
the right to privacy, especially in human relationships;
the right to education and information that empower individuals to make informed decisions about sexuality and reproduction; and
the right to nondiscriminatory access to confidential, comprehensive reproductive health care services.
A supportive public climate is necessary to ensure these rights for all individuals worldwide. Public policies and the manner in which they are implemented should enhance these rights.
Planned Parenthood recognizes its responsibilities to encourage such a supportive public climate.
[Adopted 1989]
Universal Access
to Services
The deepest roots of the concept of family planning lie at the beginning of human history, when women and men first attempted to prevent unwanted pregnancy and childbearing with amulets, incantations, and a variety of devices and substances.
Today, in the United States, acceptance of family planning is so profound and widespread that it is difficult to comprehend how short a time has passed since those who fought for access to family planning services were publicly ridiculed and even jailed.
In the decades since safe and legal family planning services became available in the United States, maternal and infant health have improved dramatically, the infant death rate has plummeted; and the gap between the number of children desired and the number born has narrowed for couples in every income bracket. There have been similar improvements in the health and welfare of individuals in other nations in which there is widespread access to family planning services.
As a result, most individuals and governments worldwide recognize that family planning services are vital to the elevation of human existence. Such services are the means by which individuals may exercise their fundamental right to make informed, independent decisions about reproduction. Further, without family planning, little can be achieved in health care, education, economic progress, land management, conquering world hunger, or reducing other population pressures. Women, especially, recognize that they cannot take control of their lives without first taking control of their fertility.
All individuals worldwide have the right to nondiscriminatory, confidential access to the full range of voluntary reproductive health care services that are proven safe and effective. These services:
should include contraception, sterilization, abortion, fertility enhancement, and prevention and treatment of sexually transmitted diseases;
should be offered through efficient, effective, and innovative programs that preserve individual rights and privacy; and
should enable individuals to have children when and if they are ready—physically, emotionally, and financially.
Planned Parenthood recognizes its responsibility to provide reproductive and complementary health care services through its network of affiliates nationwide, and to ensure that such services are offered worldwide in other diverse settings, including public health facilities, private medical practitioners' offices, and community-based distribution programs.
Planned Parenthood advocates vigorous research to develop and evaluate the safety and effectiveness of new fertility management technologies"
This is PP
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about/thisispp/mission.html#01Mission
They have no clue of the truth or reality...
Janet Meehan 7/25/02 7:11pm
Ah the dreams of the anti-women
From http://report.kff.org/archive/repro/2000/03/kr000310.4.htm
" Faced with attacks by some antiabortion activists, many physicians have shied away from performing abortions, but for the female and male doctors profiled in the March issue of Glamour magazine, that very reason is what pushes them to provide abortion services. In some respects, abortion opponents' "intimidation seems to be working," as the number of places where a woman can obtain a legal abortion dropped from 2,908 in 1982 to 2,042 in 1996. Further, from 1992-1996 -- the period "that saw the biggest upswing in attacks on abortion clinics and physicians" -- the number of abortion providers fell by 14%. But in 1993, Dr. Jody Steinauer founded Medical Students for Choice, an organization that encourages and supports future abortion providers. The organization now has 5,000 members and is hosted by 90 medical school campuses in the United States and Canada. In addition to providing moral support for students and residents who might face intimidation tactics from antiabortion extremist groups, the organization has pushed for accessible abortion training for medical residents. Glamour profiled several future abortion providers and questioned them about their commitment to choice"
Of course some are frightened by the thugs of operation rescue or the followers of this idiot Robertson, but most reputable ob-gyn provide abortions... in their office...
probably in the middle of hicktown in babble country, this may be false... But for mostr women it is still available...
Thanks the fates!
Pitiricus. 7/25/02 7:19pm
A Medical Students for Choice organization with 5,000 members --- that's where you're placing all your hope? Seriously, what reputable doctor wants to execute human beings? Also, what intelligent medical student with any potential wants to settle for being a scum bag abortionist who is detested by a large percentage of the population? Is it any wonder the number of abortionists is on the decline?
Bill Fold, take a look at Piti's post in WOT (War on Terrorism) thread when you get a chance.
consent to sex isn't consent to pregnancy
Not consent but you are aware of the possibility of that happening and should be willing to face that consequence.
Men have to face that consequence. They have no choice in the matter.
We should at least be consistent. If a man gets a woman pregnant and doesn't want the child. Should he lose all responsibility for the child?
Welcome Janet and holdthestringasiwalkaway.
THX 1138 7/26/02 5:27am
facing the consequence:
I can face it by:
a) having the child.
b) not having the child.
men having to face the "consequence": well, thats when the woman decided to have the child(and dont forget, thats what YOU want, for each and every man and woman who stumble into a pregnacy they didnt want).
and what does he have to do? wait for the child to be born and then pay. not walking all night when the baby cant sleep, not feeding it every couple hours(in the best case), not having it around him 24/7....
and a LOT of them runs when they dont want the child! ya know, my friend I talked about, actually has to prove that the man is the father, with going to court and all, the guy cant be found though. great, huh. with men facing the consequence.....
its my friend, who takes care of her kids, its me and two others taking care of the kids together with her. you think 150$ per month is enough to support a child? think again.
can one balance the costs, there, at all? I dont think so!
and yes, if the man happened to have unprotected sex with a woman(and every man is absolutely capable of using a condom, if he doesnt want a child with her, and if a condom is properly used, it doesnt break)and the woman decides to have the child, he is to pay. he has done it to the body of another person. and dealing with if he is to have responsibility over a child or not, is for the woman, then. my take...
no way does he ever pay enough to make up for the work he doesnt want and isnt doing, usually.
so bottom line: you f... a woman and she gets pregnant. you are at her mercy.
its not your body, its not your risk. the consequence for BOTH if she has the child are costs, money on one side, and money and an ABSOLUTELY ALTERED WAY OF LIFE for the woman.
Janet Meehan 7/25/02 8:12pm
Janet, thank you for coming here.
You made excellent points!
I value your input, please post here often. :)
"to. It's been the same people with the same arguments with no one budging an inch (including you, Rick)."
That's wrong. I've always said that the issue has been hijacked by extreme views on both sides.
I think it's a worthy goal to reduce the number of abortions. But to do so the leadership of the two extreme ends of this issue have to establish some goals and take some steps to get there. And that involves compromises. The woman from Germany says that the woman has 14 weeks there. That's a compromise.
"btw Rick, many don't think there is a middle ground on this issue."
Which is why the country is stuck in the throes of this bitter, divisive front in a cultural war. This thread is just a very tiny skirmish point in a very large battle. Most of the time it's angry and personal.
1) Abortion is legal through what month of pregnancy?
    a) third b) sixth c) ninth
2) Since abortion was legalized in 1973, how many U.S. babies lives have been lost?
    a) 12 million b) 24 million c) 38 million
3) Abortion is the leading cause of death in the U.S., causing what percent of total deaths?
    a) 35 percent b) 46 percent c) 52 percent
4) What age group of women has the greatest number of abortions?
    a) 15-19 b) 20-24 c) 25-29
5) Women who abort their first child stand how much greater risk of developing breast cancer?
    a) 3x b) 2x c) 4x
6) One out of how many preborn babies is killed by abortion?
    a) two b) three c) four
7) What percent of women who have had abortions experience suicidal tendencies?
    a) 45 percent b) 56 percent c) 62 percent
"It's not good for women to go through the procedure (abortion) and have something living sucked out of their bodies. It belittles women. Even though some women say, "Oh, I don't mind to have one," every time a woman has an abortion, it just crushes her self-esteem smaller and smaller and smaller." - Dolores O'Riordan - Lead Vocalist, The Cranberries.
Source: You! magazine June/July 1996
paula, i find your arguments agains abortion, citing the emotional damage done to women afterwards, as being somewhat hypocritical (in general). frequently, we hear complaints from the right that the left if doing far too much to try and protect us from ourselves (and in all fairness, this probably goes the other way as well). but in using that as an argument to criminalise abortion, aren't you doing just that? trying to protect a woman from herself? and don't worry, i'll be the first one in line to criticise anyone who makes it a goal to protect me from myself.
ares 7/26/02 7:09am
hi. and a woman, just like EVERY person, should have the right to decide whats good for her herself.
'Bill - Fold' 7/26/02 5:20am
I don't have too much sympathy for the deviant creed named Christianity... But Christians? Who cares what they believe? I don'Lt...
Now when they try to impose prayers in schools, or their theology as law, this is quite different...
Paula I 7/26/02 6:53am
Abortion is on demand through the two first semester, and only with a doctor's comittee approval in the third... as it should be...
NO baby was ever killed by abortion as a fetus isn't a baby!
Abortion is quite the safest procedure around... It's death rate is one tenth the rate of maternal death due to pregnancies (this from CDC data...
The idea that abortion increases rates of cancer has been debunked by the following study http://imsdd.meb.uni-bonn.de/cancernet/600353.html
"Recent large studies, particularly cohort studies, generally show no association between breast cancer risk and previously recorded spontaneous or induced abortions. In a large-scale epidemiologic study reported in The New England Journal of Medicine in 1997, researchers compared data from Danish health registries that included 1.5 million women and more than 10,000 cases of breast cancer. The registry data on abortions was collected before the diagnosis of breast cancer was made. After adjusting the data for several established breast cancer risk factors, the authors found that induced abortions have no overall effect on the risk of breast cancer. The strengths of this study include its large size, the ability to account for breast cancer risk factors that may differ between women who have had abortions and those who have not, and the availability of information on abortion"...
The fact tha women who had abortions are not more at risk to suicide is documented by the large-scale study of the APA
http://www.apa.org/releases/abort.html
"-- Social scientists have known for years that the availability of legal abortion is not associated with long-term psychological distress in women who use it. An eight-year longitudinal study involving nearly 5,300 young women published in 1992 found that the best predictor of well-being in women over the course of the study was their well-being at the start of the study, not their income level, job status, level of education or martial status or -- quite specifically -- whether they had had an abortion. Now a new follow-up study, published in the current edition of the American Psychological Association's (APA) journal Professional Psychology: Research and Practice finds that the same conclusion still applies regardless of religious or racial differences."
next?
Another link that shows no correlation between abortion and breast cancer
http://www.who.int/inf-fs/en/fact240.html
I don't have too much sympathy for the deviant creed named Christianity... But Christians? Who cares what they believe? I don'Lt...
I think they may call that bigotry.
Now when they try to impose prayers in schools, or their theology as law, this is quite different...
They being your neighbors should have some ssay in what goes on in their schools. Instead fascists like you, Piti, do what you can to prevent such input. You must be a product of public scholl or you would understand the Constitution was never meant to prevent locals from having prayer in school.
I don't have too much sympathy for the deviant creed named Christianity...
I can almost feel the love in the air, how about you?
Another link that shows no correlation between abortion and breast cancer
You people will discount anything if it gets in the way of killing unborn children.
Nice, People have said the same of your creed as well, their called racists. Well at least your true hate filled colors are shining through. Have a nice day racist.
Sorry pal... You don't prove a negative... OTH if you go on telling there exists such entities, prove they exist!
Just look around you and ask yourself how can this be. Even you are a miracle. A hateful and possibly evil miracle but I am sure God is using you for some purpose.
Well at least your true hate filled colors are shining through.
Check out the WOT thread? She/he/it hates anything that isn't Jewish.
It's sad really. There's a lot of good people that aren't Jewish.
Yea I saw the hate filled ignorant posts of he/she aka Pitricus.
consent to sex isn't consent to pregnancy
Well yes it is is.
aren't you doing just that? trying to protect a woman from herself? and don't worry, i'll be the first one in line to criticise anyone who makes it a goal to protect me from myself.
No she is advocating protecting the unborn child.
hi. and a woman, just like EVERY person, should have the right to decide whats good for her herself.
Not when it comes to another human being. And despite what you proabortionists say the unborn child is a human being.
NO baby was ever killed by abortion as a fetus isn't a baby!
The mantra of the evil.
I'm looking to see if a Rabbi would considers someone Jewish if they claimed to be an agnostic.
What do you think? Is being Jewish strictly ethnic, strictly religious, or both?
http://www.jewish.com/askarabbi/