Bigotry? Not at all... After examinning the tenets and the results of Christianity, I have come to the conclusion that it hasn't a leg to satnd on... Neither have a lot of sects...
OTH, Christinaity and Islam believe they have to convert people by force if needs be... This to me is bigotry!
Actually it did... The Founding fathers knew what they were doing... And in order noty to establish religion, until the end of the nineteenth century, they forced post offices to be opened on sunday! I guess this bit of history escaped you.
"Many modern Americans would be surprised that the American Founders were so open in their total dedication to separation of church and state. The Constitution gave the federal government the power to establish a system for the delivery of mail. And from the start the federal government refused to acknowledge any sabbath and mail was delivered, and post offices opened, on Sundays. In 1810 Congress passed legislation requiring that all post offices be open every day for at least one hour and that mail be delivered on Sundays. Over the years crusades were launched to end this practice. These was vigorously opposed. The Indiana legislature said: “There are no doctrines or observances inculcated by the Christian religion which require the arm of civil power either to enforce or sustain them: we consider every connection between church and state at all times dangerous to civil and religious liberty.”
So you want to pray? Do it at home or at church... OTH if you try to foist your prayers on my children in school, well I'll sue the pants off you! and this http://www.zolatimes.com/V4.8/fathers_faith.html
Bigotry? Not at all... After examinning the tenets and the results of Christianity, I have come to the conclusion that it hasn't a leg to satnd on... Neither have a lot of sects...
Oh so you've decided that, well that's up to you, but generalizing about one group in particular and making derogitory comments certainly is bigotry to the fullest extent. And you sir are a very narrow minded individual. If someone said the same of your creed, then I'm sure you would rightfully take them to task for it. Don't expect any respect for your opinions or you as a person until you give some in return.
The only reason they don't is that they haven't the power to do it... because the law has established a strict separation... But given half a chance, they'll do it!
Ah the PC mentality... telling you don't like Christianity becomes bigotry... So let me tell you: for me Christianity is no better than the hate sects like Aryan nation... What it did to others along the centuries is exactly waht the hate groups are preaching... from St John Chrysothom, and the gospel of John to the Inquisition, Martin Luther and the burning of witched to the Holocaust...
And don't try to say: these were bad Christian, no they weren't... They did exactly what the creed told them to do!
Only today, it is coming out of it, but stillnot really... So why should anybody like a creed with such an history?
Actually it did... The Founding fathers knew what they were doing... And in order noty to establish religion, until the end of the nineteenth century, they forced post offices to be opened on sunday! I guess this bit of history escaped you.
It is apparent that you don't know a damn thing about the establishment clause and what it was intended to do. If you did you would know that the first amendment and the did not apply to the states.
Actually, the Bible never references abortion. So there is only indirect reference. What is really alive?
1. "Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul" - Gen 2:7
2. "And I prophesied as I was commanded and as I prophesied there was noise and behold a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them and flesh grew, and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them. Then He (God) said to me "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath. 'Thus says the Lord God, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life"'". So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they came to life, and stood on their feet an exceedingly great army" - Eze 37: 7-9
3. "Only in cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes". - Deu 20:16.
4. "I waste away; I will not live forever. Leave me alone, for my days are but a breath" - Job 7:16.
5. "For as long as life is in me, And the breath of God is in my nostrils" - Job 27:3
6. “And she fell immediately at his feet, and breathed her last; and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband” - Acts 5:10 A fetus does not breath through the nostrils, the breath of life (Gen 2:7, 7:22) that is necessary for terrestrial life. So it seems to me that if it isn't breathing then it isn't alive. And if it isn't alive, then it cannot be murdered. In Luke 1 where John the Baptist as a fetus jumps for joy (Luke 1:44). However, John is the ONLY fetus born with Holy Spirit in order to baptize Jesus (Luke 1:15). All other fetus are common fetus and have yet to be born of water or Spirit. Finally there is Ex 21:22-23 "And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him and shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth" This is interesting because many translations use the term "come out" instead of miscarriage, implying the baby is born alive. If that is the case, then what this passage is saying is anyone who kills a child in a woman must pay the price of murder. But this is the same as the California Penal Code 187, that says if a woman with child is assaulted, and the fetus dies, those guilty of the assault can be charged with murder. It is a clarification in CPC 187 that the woman has the right to choose, not those doing the assaulting. Similarly, in Exodus 21:22-23, where the woman's husband demands the penalty, because in those days the husband made the decision. But if the woman and her husband make the choice, there is no penalty. Of course if the term miscarriage is used, then there will only be a financial penalty appraised for the fetus and the Law of Retribution (eye for eye, life for life) applies only to the mother and not the fetus. The Hebrew word for soul is "Nephesh", which is a derivative of breath, and means breather, or one who breathes.
Regarding Jer 1:5: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations”. Where God says he knew the prophet before he formed Jeremiah in the womb He knew him, it could either be foreknowledge ("He knew him") or a preexistence. Either way, God knew Jeremiah BEFORE he formed Jeremiah in the womb. And like Adam being “formed” from dust, according to God’s own words, He forms in the womb. The breath of life comes in after formation is complete (Gen 2:7, Eze 37:10).
Ecc 4:1-3 says (NKJV): "Then I returned and considered all the oppression that is done under the sun: And look! the tears of the oppressed, But they have no comforter - On the side of the oppressors there is power. But they have no comforter. Therefore I praised the dead who were already dead, More than the living who are still alive. Yet better than both is he who has never existed, Who has not seen the evil work that is done under the sun" Clearly never existing is different from dead or alive. In Ecc 6:3-5 (NKJV)"If a man begets a hundred children and lives many years, so that the days of his years are many, but his soul is not satisfied with goodness, or indeed he has no burial, I say that a stillborn child is better than he - for it comes in vanity and departs in darkness, and its name is covered with darkness. Though it has not seen the sun, nor known anything, this has more rest than that man." Notice that The Preacher does not say this man should die, but that he should never be born, because he doesn't appreciate life. Like those in Ecc 4:3, it is better that he never existed in life. Jesus, who would never wish to see a man dead because He came to give life and not take it (Joh 10:10), says regarding His betrayer, Judas Iscariot: “For the Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!, It would have been good for that man if he had not been born” (Mar 14:21). Notice He does not say it would have been good for that man if had not been conceived, but “had not been born”. Because Jesus would not wish death on any one, so it would have been better because Judas would never have existed, as those in Ecc 4:3. "For the life of the flesh is IN the blood" (Lev 17:11), which precedes and clarifies 17:14. That life is oxygen. And with the fetus, it is the breath, or life, of the mother in its blood. Otherwise, a corpse would be alive, because it still has blood, but it is dead, because it has no breath. The same conditions applies to Due 12:23, which, like Lev 17:11-14 also refers to the blood of DEAD animals. Since dead creatures have blood and no breath, it is clear that breath is what defines being alive. "Thus says the Lord God to these bones, 'Behold I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life'" (Eze 37:5). He didn't say he will put blood in them to come alive, because in Eze 37:6 He says again: "I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin, and put breath in you that you may come alive". And they finally come alive when they breath (Eze 37:10). In the Bible, when David and Bathsheeba had adulterous sex, David had her husband, Uriah, killed. As punishment, God killed the child of David and Bathsheeba. (2 Sam 11:2- 12:23). God does make the child of adultery pay sometimes. And because God said the child would die, He did not kill it in the womb, as those who believe abortion is murder would say, but He had to wait for the child to be born, so it could die, as the Prophet Nathan said to David “However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child that is born to you shall surely die” (2 Sam 12:14). Re: Psalm 139:16, it says: “Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them” Here the Psalmists says there was not yet one of his days while he was being formed in the womb (Ps 139:13-16). Yet in Job 14:1 says “Man who is born of woman is short of days (short-lived) and full of turmoil...Since his days are determined, the number of months is with Thee. And his limits Thou has set so that he cannot pass” Man’s life is a number of days, a time period allotted to man. But in the womb, his days are ordained, but as yet there are not one of them (Ps 139:16). Another clue that the Bible considers life to begin at birth. The bottom line is there is no commandment or reference that says abortion is murder in the Bible. The Bible is very clear on behavior ("You shall not commit adultery. You shall not commit murder. You shall not steal"). I see no reason why God or the authors of the Bible would not make abortion a "Thou shall not have an abortion" command if that was the intent.
And finally if you do say it is subject to opinion or interpretation, then that makes the Bible pro choice, doesn't it?
Ah the PC mentality... telling you don't like Christianity becomes bigotry... So let me tell you: for me Christianity is no better than the hate sects like Aryan nation...
It's not PC. So If i said all Jews are morally bankrupt and you took me to task for it as you should would you be P.C. No it would be bigotry. You can hide behind your racist generalizations all you wish. You're no better than Aryan nation. in fact worse. At least that group of morons will come right out and say their hatred. You cloak yours in a mask.
What it did to others along the centuries is exactly waht the hate groups are preaching... from St John Chrysothom, and the gospel of John to the Inquisition, Martin Luther and the burning of witched to the Holocaust...
And don't try to say: these were bad Christian, no they weren't... They did exactly what the creed told them to do!
Only today, it is coming out of it, but stillnot really... So why should anybody like a creed with such an history?
First of all if you had any wits you would know that Christianity is a very broad term and encompasses many different views and sects. I guess Jewish people and htier faith is without fault. Yes they never did any good either right ? And there are no bad Jews, right ?. Naah, if they are bad they aren't following their creed.
The sad part is that as someone who is Jewish and whose people faced years of racism and bigotry should know better than to make inflamitory and racist statements. The same mantra and demonization of one group is the same dehumanizing demonization that the Nazi's used to kill 6 million people, of course someone back then probably accused them of being p.c simply because they didn't like Jews and saying it. You're no better.
One other question for you ? What faith am I ? Do you know ?
let see if it works for another religion: and I am quoting Verita Vincit on another board
"Buddhism and Buddhists who long controlled the various governments in Europe and England from the time that the Roman Empire collapsed, were violently anti-semitic. They routinely rounded up Jews and tortured, them, murdered them, created a whole host of positively evil lies about their eating Buddhist babies; in addition to this, they forced them to live in proscribed boundries of areas called ghettos; further, from time to time, the Buddhists would expel all the Jews from now France, then England etc.; they would in Spain force them to convert to Buddhism and then would accuse them of not having actually abandoned Judaism, they would condemn them as apostates, seize their property and kill them.
Finally in the greatest spasm of Buddhist anti-semitism an entire country, Buddhist for more than a thousand years, rose up as one and either by the agreement of their silence or by directly taking part in the actions, attempted to exterminate all of the Jews in Europe. Those Jews that managed to see the writing on the walls and attempted to escape to other Buddhist countries like the USA, were turned away borders where they were unwanted because they were Jews and not Buddhists.
Guess what? It doesn't work. Christians need to take responsibility for their crimes against humanity - those individuals - and collectively - for maintaining for nearly two thousand years a systematic hostility towards Jews."
And let me see where you can make the same story about Jews....
And I bet you won't find antisemitic remarks in the Bhuddist holy text like "let his blood be on us and our children"
And the moment it was ratified, this became null and void.
Obviously you are even stupider than I thought. It was not until the 1940's when an activist supreme court either out of ignorance of history or due to a political agenda said states couldn't legislate prayer.
The mention of God on the currency only happened at the end on the 19th century... The under God in the pledge only in the 50s...
As to established religion? You are a moron! The moment the Constitution was ratified as well as the First amendment, then any establishment of religion became moot in the states...
At the times there were no public schools funded by the states...
You don't know do you. Of course not, because you are ignorant.
The things that you cite happened many many years ago. Let's take a look at some more recent history. It was also a nation (s) Britain and the U.S of mainly Christian people or that faith being in the majority that kicked Hitler's ass and ended the holocaust and the horrific slaughter of more Jews.
The U.S is a nation that claims christianity that allows ALL religions and faiths to worship as they please. I guess we can't say the same of ISRAEL. Put that in your pipe and add it to whatever else you were smoking guy.
The mention of God on the currency only happened at the end on the 19th century... The under God in the pledge only in the 50s... You are so stupid that you don't even know what the topic was. It was the right of the states to promote religion, moron.
As to established religion? You are a moron! The moment the Constitution was ratified as well as the First amendment, then any establishment of religion became moot in the states... You are utterly WRONG.
Ares, I am advocating protecting the unborn child and at the same time helping to protect the woman from continued harm to herself.
Have you ever had this nagging thing you've tried to bury that keeps coming up and affects your life no matter how much you try to brush it aside and justify it?
Abortion has many casualties, not just the unborn.
But to protect the unborn child is all the reason necessary to support the positives in life choices.
Did you read some of his posts from other forums as well. Pretty ugly stuff. I'll debate with anyone of a differing opinion who will actually debate. I refuse to do so with racists.
To further help women hold on to self esteem and suffer less the emotional trauma, I would suggest the anti-abortion movement stop staking out clinics, taking women's pictures and putting them on the Internet and taunting them,. as well as their doctors and caregivers.
That's gotta be emotionally damaging, don't you think? And how often can the anti-abortion movement claim success with such tactics?
Have you ever had this nagging thing you've tried to bury that keeps coming up and affects your life no matter how much you try to brush it aside and justify it?
yes. her name was courtney, and losing her because i never told her how i felt about her has caused me an enormous amount of pain, as some of the people around these parts who know me in real life, like thx, very well know. and then a few weeks ago, i said screw this, i'm not dealing with it anymore, and did something about getting over her.
but to try and argue that you're protecting the woman from herself, and to try to keep her from depression and emotional trauma, i could turn around and use that argument in favor of aborting children, as many many women actually from post-partum depression.
To further help women hold on to self esteem and suffer less the emotional trauma, I would suggest the anti-abortion movement stop staking out clinics, taking women's pictures and putting them on the Internet and taunting them,. as well as their doctors and caregivers.
That really hurts that you would lump me in with some psychos looking for trouble. They just happened to pick abortion, but it could have just as easily been terrorism as in Timothy McVeigh.
That is taking things way too far, IMO, and it hurts the pro-life movement as well as hurting those women, doctors, and both their families.
That's gotta be emotionally damaging, don't you think? And how often can the anti-abortion movement claim success with such tactics?
I agree and I am not a part of the staking out and taunting of women entering an abortion clinic. Those tactics quite probably have done much to further the movement.
Rick, please, don't group me with the extremeists. :)
Then make a move toward the center on this debate.
I don't know if you read my earlier post, I said that unless the two side make some move to compromise, you stay at this same wide, bitter, divide.
I don't see you as the least bit accommodating. If reducing abortion is the goal, then set it and make a move towards it. Otherwise, this is just a war of words. And the rhetoric, history has shown, can spin dangerous, unstable people.
jethro bodine 7/26/02 8:12am
Bigotry? Not at all... After examinning the tenets and the results of Christianity, I have come to the conclusion that it hasn't a leg to satnd on... Neither have a lot of sects...
OTH, Christinaity and Islam believe they have to convert people by force if needs be... This to me is bigotry!
Christinaity and Islam believe they have to convert people by force if needs be.
Historically you're probably right. Today some do but I would argue that most don't.
bigot-(1) a person that holds blindly and intolerantly to a particular creed, opinion, etc. (2) a narrow-minded person (3)Pitiricus.
jethro bodine 7/26/02 8:12am
Actually it did... The Founding fathers knew what they were doing... And in order noty to establish religion, until the end of the nineteenth century, they forced post offices to be opened on sunday! I guess this bit of history escaped you.
try http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm
"Many modern Americans would be surprised that the American Founders were so open in their total dedication to separation of church and state. The Constitution gave the federal government the power to establish a system for the delivery of mail. And from the start the federal government refused to acknowledge any sabbath and mail was delivered, and post offices opened, on Sundays. In 1810 Congress passed legislation requiring that all post offices be open every day for at least one hour and that mail be delivered on Sundays. Over the years crusades were launched to end this practice. These was vigorously opposed. The Indiana legislature said: “There are no doctrines or observances inculcated by the Christian religion which require the arm of civil power either to enforce or sustain them: we consider every connection between church and state at all times dangerous to civil and religious liberty.”
So you want to pray? Do it at home or at church... OTH if you try to foist your prayers on my children in school, well I'll sue the pants off you!
and this http://www.zolatimes.com/V4.8/fathers_faith.html
THX 1138 7/26/02 8:13am
This love? http://www.remember.org/guide/History.root.classical.html
Or that one http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.html
Or this one, the result of Christianity (something about by their fruits they will be known)?
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/modsbook44.html
Well again, by its fruits it is known!
jethro bodine 7/26/02 8:14am
A child is born... Until it is born it is a parasite on the woman's body...
Luv2Fly 7/26/02 8:18am
See above Pitiricus. 7/26/02 8:41am
jethro bodine 7/26/02 8:18am
A miracle? Well I quite believe in evolution, in the big bang and in physics... These aren't miracles...
You can say that God is the big bang... That's about it!
jethro bodine 7/26/02 8:24am
Given that you aren't a woman (I think), you have nothing to say about it...
And I really feel for your wife/girlfriend if this is your attitude!
No she is advocating protecting the unborn child.
bullshit. not with the argument about how much emotional and physical trauma is incurred on the mother, she's not.
THX 1138 7/26/02 8:31am
LOL... To be Jewish you have either to be born of a Jewish mother, converted according to Halacha and not have converted to another religion...
I fulfill 1... And no rabbi would say I am not Jewish... From the Lubavicher to Ariel Sharon...
Again LOL... Nice try! But shows a real ignorance of what being Jewish means!
Oh so you've decided that, well that's up to you, but generalizing about one group in particular and making derogitory comments certainly is bigotry to the fullest extent. And you sir are a very narrow minded individual. If someone said the same of your creed, then I'm sure you would rightfully take them to task for it. Don't expect any respect for your opinions or you as a person until you give some in return.
THX 1138 7/26/02 8:33am
The only reason they don't is that they haven't the power to do it... because the law has established a strict separation... But given half a chance, they'll do it!
jethro bodine 7/26/02 8:34am
Actually you define yourself quite well...
LOL!
Luv2Fly 7/26/02 8:48am
Ah the PC mentality... telling you don't like Christianity becomes bigotry... So let me tell you: for me Christianity is no better than the hate sects like Aryan nation... What it did to others along the centuries is exactly waht the hate groups are preaching... from St John Chrysothom, and the gospel of John to the Inquisition, Martin Luther and the burning of witched to the Holocaust...
And don't try to say: these were bad Christian, no they weren't... They did exactly what the creed told them to do!
Only today, it is coming out of it, but stillnot really... So why should anybody like a creed with such an history?
Actually it did... The Founding fathers knew what they were doing... And in order noty to establish religion, until the end of the nineteenth century, they forced post offices to be opened on sunday! I guess this bit of history escaped you.
It is apparent that you don't know a damn thing about the establishment clause and what it was intended to do. If you did you would know that the first amendment and the did not apply to the states.
A child is born... Until it is born it is a parasite on the woman's body...
God help you, Piti, you you need it.
The Bible and abortion
Actually, the Bible never references abortion. So there is only indirect reference.
What is really alive?
1. "Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul" - Gen 2:7
2. "And I prophesied as I was commanded and as I prophesied there was noise and behold a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them and flesh grew, and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them. Then He (God) said to me "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath. 'Thus says the Lord God, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life"'". So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they came to life, and stood on their feet an exceedingly great army" - Eze 37: 7-9
3. "Only in cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes". - Deu 20:16.
4. "I waste away; I will not live forever. Leave me alone, for my days are but a breath" - Job 7:16.
5. "For as long as life is in me, And the breath of God is in my nostrils" - Job 27:3
6. “And she fell immediately at his feet, and breathed her last; and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband” - Acts 5:10
A fetus does not breath through the nostrils, the breath of life (Gen 2:7, 7:22) that is necessary for terrestrial life. So it seems to me that if it isn't breathing then it isn't alive. And if it isn't alive, then it cannot be murdered.
In Luke 1 where John the Baptist as a fetus jumps for joy (Luke 1:44). However, John is the ONLY fetus born with Holy Spirit in order to baptize Jesus (Luke 1:15). All other fetus are common fetus and have yet to be born of water or Spirit.
Finally there is Ex 21:22-23 "And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him and shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth"
This is interesting because many translations use the term "come out" instead of miscarriage, implying the baby is born alive. If that is the case, then what this passage is saying is anyone who kills a child in a woman must pay the price of murder. But this is the same as the California Penal Code 187, that says if a woman with child is assaulted, and the fetus dies, those guilty of the assault can be charged with murder. It is a clarification in CPC 187 that the woman has the right to choose, not those doing the assaulting. Similarly, in Exodus 21:22-23, where the woman's husband demands the penalty, because in those days the husband made the decision. But if the woman and her husband make the choice, there is no penalty.
Of course if the term miscarriage is used, then there will only be a financial penalty appraised for the fetus and the Law of Retribution (eye for eye, life for life) applies only to the mother and not the fetus.
The Hebrew word for soul is "Nephesh", which is a derivative of breath, and means breather, or one who breathes.
Regarding Jer 1:5: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations”. Where God says he knew the prophet before he formed Jeremiah in the womb He knew him, it could either be foreknowledge ("He knew him") or a preexistence. Either way, God knew Jeremiah BEFORE he formed Jeremiah in the womb. And like Adam being “formed” from dust, according to God’s own words, He forms in the womb. The breath of life comes in after formation is complete (Gen 2:7, Eze 37:10).
Ecc 4:1-3 says (NKJV): "Then I returned and considered all the oppression that is done under the sun: And look! the tears of the oppressed, But they have no comforter - On the side of the oppressors there is power. But they have no comforter. Therefore I praised the dead who were already dead, More than the living who are still alive. Yet better than both is he who has never existed, Who has not seen the evil work that is done under the sun" Clearly never existing is different from dead or alive.
In Ecc 6:3-5 (NKJV)"If a man begets a hundred children and lives many years, so that the days of his years are many, but his soul is not satisfied with goodness, or indeed he has no burial, I say that a stillborn child is better than he - for it comes in vanity and departs in darkness, and its name is covered with darkness. Though it has not seen the sun, nor known anything, this has more rest than that man." Notice that The Preacher does not say this man should die, but that he should never be born, because he doesn't appreciate life. Like those in Ecc 4:3, it is better that he never existed in life.
Jesus, who would never wish to see a man dead because He came to give life and not take it (Joh 10:10), says regarding His betrayer, Judas Iscariot: “For the Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!, It would have been good for that man if he had not been born” (Mar 14:21). Notice He does not say it would have been good for that man if had not been conceived, but “had not been born”. Because Jesus would not wish death on any one, so it would have been better because Judas would never have existed, as those in Ecc 4:3.
"For the life of the flesh is IN the blood" (Lev 17:11), which precedes and clarifies 17:14. That life is oxygen. And with the fetus, it is the breath, or life, of the mother in its blood. Otherwise, a corpse would be alive, because it still has blood, but it is dead, because it has no breath. The same conditions applies to Due 12:23, which, like Lev 17:11-14 also refers to the blood of DEAD animals. Since dead creatures have blood and no breath, it is clear that breath is what defines being alive. "Thus says the Lord God to these bones, 'Behold I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life'" (Eze 37:5). He didn't say he will put blood in them to come alive, because in Eze 37:6 He says again: "I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin, and put breath in you that you may come alive". And they finally come alive when they breath (Eze 37:10).
In the Bible, when David and Bathsheeba had adulterous sex, David had her husband, Uriah, killed. As punishment, God killed the child of David and Bathsheeba. (2 Sam 11:2- 12:23). God does make the child of adultery pay sometimes. And because God said the child would die, He did not kill it in the womb, as those who believe abortion is murder would say, but He had to wait for the child to be born, so it could die, as the Prophet Nathan said to David “However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child that is born to you shall surely die” (2 Sam 12:14).
Re: Psalm 139:16, it says:
“Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them”
Here the Psalmists says there was not yet one of his days while he was being formed in the womb (Ps 139:13-16). Yet in Job 14:1 says “Man who is born of woman is short of days (short-lived) and full of turmoil...Since his days are determined, the number of months is with Thee. And his limits Thou has set so that he cannot pass”
Man’s life is a number of days, a time period allotted to man. But in the womb, his days are ordained, but as yet there are not one of them (Ps 139:16). Another clue that the Bible considers life to begin at birth.
The bottom line is there is no commandment or reference that says abortion is murder in the Bible. The Bible is very clear on behavior ("You shall not commit adultery. You shall not commit murder. You shall not steal"). I see no reason why God or the authors of the Bible would not make abortion a "Thou shall not have an abortion" command if that was the intent.
And finally if you do say it is subject to opinion or interpretation, then that makes the Bible pro choice, doesn't it?
jethro bodine 7/26/02 8:55am
Except in ad hominem attacks that have no value as argument, can you disprove what I posted? I am waiting...
jethro bodine 7/26/02 8:58am
And may Marvin the pink unicorn on Pluto help you to see the truth...
If you weren't so stupid Piti you would know that that at the time the Constitution was ratified several states had established religions.
You don't know what the truth is, Piti. God must have plans for you and made you the pathetic excuse of a being that you are.
Nice try! But shows a real ignorance of what being Jewish means!
You're right, I am ignorant for I am not Jewish.
I do know that if you convert to say Christianity, you're no longer considered a Jew, even though ethnically you may be a "Jew".
Some don't consider you Jewish at all unless you were born to a Jewish mother.
You can be an athiest and still be a Jew.
So religion does matter and it isn't just ethnic, but ethnicity plays the major role..........
I think.
It's a very confusing thing and doesn't make much sense to me.
It's not PC. So If i said all Jews are morally bankrupt and you took me to task for it as you should would you be P.C. No it would be bigotry. You can hide behind your racist generalizations all you wish. You're no better than Aryan nation. in fact worse. At least that group of morons will come right out and say their hatred. You cloak yours in a mask.
First of all if you had any wits you would know that Christianity is a very broad term and encompasses many different views and sects. I guess Jewish people and htier faith is without fault.
Yes they never did any good either right ? And there are no bad Jews, right ?. Naah, if they are bad they aren't following their creed.
The sad part is that as someone who is Jewish and whose people faced years of racism and bigotry should know better than to make inflamitory and racist statements. The same mantra and demonization of one group is the same dehumanizing demonization that the Nazi's used to kill 6 million people, of course someone back then probably accused them of being p.c simply because they didn't like Jews and saying it. You're no better.
One other question for you ? What faith am I ? Do you know ?
Christ was a Jew.
You can know you are going to Heaven.
jethro bodine 7/26/02 9:04am
And the moment it was ratified, this became null and void!
Try to read about Marshall!
Luv2Fly 7/26/02 9:07am
let see if it works for another religion: and I am quoting Verita Vincit on another board
"Buddhism and Buddhists who long controlled the various governments in Europe and England from the time that the Roman Empire collapsed, were violently anti-semitic. They routinely rounded up Jews and tortured, them, murdered them, created a whole host of positively evil lies about their eating Buddhist babies; in addition to this, they forced them to live in proscribed boundries of areas called ghettos; further, from time to time, the Buddhists would expel all the Jews from now France, then England etc.; they would in Spain force them to convert to Buddhism and then would accuse them of not having actually abandoned Judaism, they would condemn them as apostates, seize their property and kill them.
Finally in the greatest spasm of Buddhist anti-semitism an entire country, Buddhist for more than a thousand years, rose up as one and either by the agreement of their silence or by directly taking part in the actions, attempted to exterminate all of the Jews in Europe. Those Jews that managed to see the writing on the walls and attempted to escape to other Buddhist countries like the USA, were turned away borders where they were unwanted because they were Jews and not Buddhists.
Guess what? It doesn't work. Christians need to take responsibility for their crimes against humanity - those individuals - and collectively - for maintaining for nearly two thousand years a systematic hostility towards Jews."
And let me see where you can make the same story about Jews....
And I bet you won't find antisemitic remarks in the Bhuddist holy text like "let his blood be on us and our children"
And
The Importance of Being Small
Know what, I'm not participating in this anymore.
I don't hate Jews, I just can't stand Piti.
Piti is insane and hates everyone Christian or Muslim. You can't rationalize with someone like that.
Have a nice day racist.
And the moment it was ratified, this became null and void.
Obviously you are even stupider than I thought. It was not until the 1940's when an activist supreme court either out of ignorance of history or due to a political agenda said states couldn't legislate prayer.
jethro bodine 7/26/02 9:37am
You are really ignorant of history...
The mention of God on the currency only happened at the end on the 19th century... The under God in the pledge only in the 50s...
As to established religion? You are a moron! The moment the Constitution was ratified as well as the First amendment, then any establishment of religion became moot in the states...
At the times there were no public schools funded by the states...
Pitricus,
What is my faith ?
You don't know do you. Of course not, because you are ignorant.
The things that you cite happened many many years ago. Let's take a look at some more recent history. It was also a nation (s) Britain and the U.S of mainly Christian people or that faith being in the majority that kicked Hitler's ass and ended the holocaust and the horrific slaughter of more Jews.
The U.S is a nation that claims christianity that allows ALL religions and faiths to worship as they please. I guess we can't say the same of ISRAEL. Put that in your pipe and add it to whatever else you were smoking guy.
Have a nice day Racist.
The mention of God on the currency only happened at the end on the 19th century... The under God in the pledge only in the 50s... You are so stupid that you don't even know what the topic was. It was the right of the states to promote religion, moron.
As to established religion? You are a moron! The moment the Constitution was ratified as well as the First amendment, then any establishment of religion became moot in the states... You are utterly WRONG.
Where's Piti from anyway?
Probably some racist zionistic cult located in shitunk Alabama.
I see no argument but ad hominem attacks... The so-called "pro-life" are always the same... As to the PCV crowd, a bunch of idiots...
So long... I see that you don't want to debate abortion...
So stay among yourself, while today, as everyday, thousand of women have access to a safe and legal abortion!
Have a nice day racist.
Have a nice day, racist.
Don't let the door hit ya.....
To Pitiful: Today, as everyday, thousand of women are allowed to dismember their unborn child limb from limb!
Have a nice day racist!
Have a nice day, Nazi!!!!!
You guys forgot to call him a Nazi. :-)
ares 7/26/02 8:47am
Ares, I am advocating protecting the unborn child and at the same time helping to protect the woman from continued harm to herself.
Have you ever had this nagging thing you've tried to bury that keeps coming up and affects your life no matter how much you try to brush it aside and justify it?
Abortion has many casualties, not just the unborn.
But to protect the unborn child is all the reason necessary to support the positives in life choices.
Rick,
Did you read some of his posts from other forums as well. Pretty ugly stuff. I'll debate with anyone of a differing opinion who will actually debate. I refuse to do so with racists.
Paula:
To further help women hold on to self esteem and suffer less the emotional trauma, I would suggest the anti-abortion movement stop staking out clinics, taking women's pictures and putting them on the Internet and taunting them,. as well as their doctors and caregivers.
That's gotta be emotionally damaging, don't you think? And how often can the anti-abortion movement claim success with such tactics?
Some more of our little racists rants.
http://www.nerdcities.com/threads/Palestine/5PI-22885-23917.htm
http://www.nerdcities.com/threads/Palestine/5PI-21016-21942.htm
Have you ever had this nagging thing you've tried to bury that keeps coming up and affects your life no matter how much you try to brush it aside and justify it?
yes. her name was courtney, and losing her because i never told her how i felt about her has caused me an enormous amount of pain, as some of the people around these parts who know me in real life, like thx, very well know. and then a few weeks ago, i said screw this, i'm not dealing with it anymore, and did something about getting over her.
but to try and argue that you're protecting the woman from herself, and to try to keep her from depression and emotional trauma, i could turn around and use that argument in favor of aborting children, as many many women actually from post-partum depression.
Rick 7/26/02 10:54am
That really hurts that you would lump me in with some psychos looking for trouble. They just happened to pick abortion, but it could have just as easily been terrorism as in Timothy McVeigh.
That is taking things way too far, IMO, and it hurts the pro-life movement as well as hurting those women, doctors, and both their families.
I agree and I am not a part of the staking out and taunting of women entering an abortion clinic. Those tactics quite probably have done much to further the movement.
Rick, please, don't group me with the extremeists. :)
OK, Paula;
Then make a move toward the center on this debate.
I don't know if you read my earlier post, I said that unless the two side make some move to compromise, you stay at this same wide, bitter, divide.
I don't see you as the least bit accommodating. If reducing abortion is the goal, then set it and make a move towards it. Otherwise, this is just a war of words. And the rhetoric, history has shown, can spin dangerous, unstable people.
Then make a move toward the center on this debate.
The center being I don't know and I don't care?
If someone believes that the unborn child is a human being how can you expect them to compromise?