and yet the people who are the insensitive ones (yes, i believe that's the term that was used), are the ones who would support a woman's right to have an abortion after being raped. Well obviously you have no sympathy for the unborn child which did not asked to be conceived or dismembered. I call that insensitive. It doesn't surprise me.
usually, women who are raped don't ask to be raped either. otherwise it wouldn't be rape now would it? i have a hell of a lot more sympathy for the rape victim than i do for that unborn child.
usually, women who are raped don't ask to be raped either. Did I say that they did? No.
i have a hell of a lot more sympathy for the rape victim than i do for that unborn child. Two wrongs don't make a right. But then liberals don't understand that.
i won't deny that i can be hypocritical some times. but you know exactly what i'm talking about with that statement, and its not abortion.
as for the comments about women asking to be raped, it doesn't take a degree in psychology here to make what seems to be the obvious judgement that you've got more sympathy for the unborn child than the rape victim. that's what i was trying to get at with my statement. and in my mind, there's something very very wrong with that kind of logic. if hypothetically, your wife or daughter were raped and became pregnant from the incident, and she wanted an abortion, would you still hold your opinions?
as for the comments about women asking to be raped, it doesn't take a degree in psychology here to make what seems to be the obvious judgement that you've got more sympathy for the unborn child than the rape victim. A personcan have sympathy for both. I don't think that one must condone abortion of a baby conceieved through rape to be sympathetic to the victim.that's what i was trying to get at with my statement. and in my mind, there's something very very wrong with that kind of logic. I suppose if you understood the logic you wouldn't find it wrong.if hypothetically, your wife or daughter were raped and became pregnant from the incident, and she wanted an abortion, would you still hold your opinions? Oh I see you just want to get rid of the innocent unborn child. It is not the child's fault that it was conceieved as the result of rape.
It is not the child's fault that it was conceieved as the result of rape.
nor is it the mother's, yet in your ideal world she'd carry the child anyway. in a situation like that, i honestly couldn't care less about the unborn child. and if you wanna condemn me to hell for it, be my guest.
nor is it the mother's, yet in your ideal world she'd carry the child anyway. in a situation like that, i honestly couldn't care less about the unborn child. and if you wanna condemn me to hell for it, be my guest.
The point is this: why should an innocent child be put to death because it was conceived as a result of rape? At least you are one proabortionist that is honest. "i honestly couldn't care less about the unborn child" should be the abortion lobbies slogan.
jt, would that be before or after you emptied the glock into the perpetrator? :)
Either will do. :-)
But seriously, I would only empty my Glock into someone as the last resort to stop a murder.
Since there have been studies that suggest a connection between rapists and their lineage...i.e. a Rapist may pass along a "Rape Gene" to his offspring, then why would anyone NOT want an abortion, if raped?
If this is the case. Why don't we isolate the "Rape Gene" and abort all rapists? Isolate the "Murder Gene" and abort all murderers. Isolate the Liberal gene and........... :-)
But seriously, that's a whole different debate.
Even if this is valid, how much of it is nature versus nurture?
as for the comments about women asking to be raped, it doesn't take a degree in psychology here to make what seems to be the obvious judgement that you've got more sympathy for the unborn child than the rape victim.
Isn't it possible that Jethro feels the trauma of rape compounded by the trauma of abortion would be an insensitive thing to support for someone who has suffered so much from a rape?
if hypothetically, your wife or daughter were raped and became pregnant from the incident, and she wanted an abortion, would you still hold your opinions?
But still, the child of a rape should have a right to exist. If it is too painful for the mother to raise and love this child, adoption still offers a positive solution and future for this life.
Since there have been studies that suggest a connection between rapists and their lineage...i.e. a Rapist may pass along a "Rape Gene" to his offspring, then why would anyone NOT want an abortion, if raped?
There have also been studies that suggest child molesters were victims of child molestation themselves. If you follow this line of thought then as soon as a child is molested, they should be put to death so they don't grow up and become a child molester.
Hmmmm.....it seems to me that unless you have the capability of being raped and impregnated against your will it's awfully easy to talk about the 'right' of that child to be born. Apparently, some of you have decided that the trauma of an abortion would be less than the trauma of having to spend nine months carrying a child you didn't want, didn't ask for, and fathered by someone who committed horrible violence upon you. Speaking from personal or potential experience are you? Or just deciding what is more traumatic for someone else without them having any say in the matter?
And what if the child was conceived via incest? What are the adoption prospects of a child fathered by its own grandfather? Especially if the child is born physically or mentally deformed? Or should we demand that the birth mother raise her own brother or sister? Or maybe that child should be just dumped into the foster care system until it is 18 if no one wants to adopt it. Oh, and what happens when the child wants to know who its parents were? Nah, let's just ensure that it gets born and then wash our hands of it.
Hmmmm.....it seems to me that unless you have the capability of being raped and impregnated against your will it's awfully easy to talk about the 'right' of that child to be born. It is a question of maorality and value for human life. That is true regardless if rape is interjected into the discussion. I suppose you believe that since men can't concieve children then they should have to say in the discussion of life and death under any circumstance.Apparently, some of you have decided that the trauma of an abortion would be less than the trauma of having to spend nine months carrying a child you didn't want, didn't ask for, and fathered by someone who committed horrible violence upon you. My point was that the unborn child is human and has began its existence and that morally there is no right to end that life.
And what if the child was conceived via incest? What are the adoption prospects of a child fathered by its own grandfather? Especially if the child is born physically or mentally deformed? Or should we demand that the birth mother raise her own brother or sister? Or maybe that child should be just dumped into the foster care system until it is 18 if no one wants to adopt it. Oh, and what happens when the child wants to know who its parents were? Nah, let's just ensure that it gets born and then wash our hands of it. And your view is to kill the child and wash the blood from your hands.
I was hoping for some thoughtful discussion on the above issues and all I got was jethro. :)
One correction jethro: I am not advocating 'killing the child' conceived through rape or incest. If the woman or girl in question decides on her own, without coercion, shame inducing pressure, or arm twisting from anyone, that she still wishes to carry and bear the child, then I wholly support her choice. HER choice. Not yours.
L. you are advocating killing the child. Every word that you write that supports abortion is advocating killing the child. Only a moron would think that because they think a woman should have the legal right to kill the child they are not advocating the killing.
If the woman or girl in question decides on her own, without coercion, shame inducing pressure, or arm twisting from anyone, that she still wishes to carry and bear the child, then I wholly support her choice. HER choice
And now you take your advocation of the killing even further by stating there shouldn't be any coercion, pressure shame or arm twisting from anyone. That is much different than saying it should be legal. You are an advocate of the killing, L. Do you enjoy the thought of the buthcery?
Hmmmm.....it seems to me that unless you have the capability of being raped and impregnated against your will it's awfully easy to talk about the 'right' of that child to be born.
No, jethro, the rape, incest, and threat to the mother's life 'things' are deeply troubling issues to me.
But since you are so free to tell me what you think about me and my views on a personal level, and since that kind of posting isn't disallowed here, I will tell you what I think about you on a personal level.
I think you aren't very old, aren't very smart, and aren't very well educated. I think you are very resentful towards women for some reason, and have been unsuccessful in controlling women you know in real life. Therefore, you have latched onto to the abortion issue as a means of exerting control over women in general, whom you seem to despise, because the abortion issue gives you a more socially 'acceptable' excuse for spewing your general hatred of women than slapping women around. I further think you probably belong to some sort of fundamentalist religion that is long on condemning people and damning them to hell and short on love and forgiveness. I think this fundamentalist type of religion further gives you a sense of moral superiority to others, which you desperately need as you likely feel very inferior in and of yourself. Plus, it probably forms about the only medium for social interaction you have, as you seem to have such an abrasive personality combined with such a willingness to blast hate at people with whom you disagree that you likely have difficulty making and sustaining friendships.
So jethro, now we are clear on what you think about me and what I think about you.
I think you aren't very old, aren't very smart, and aren't very well educated. I am nearly 40. My guess is I have more education than you do.I think you are very resentful towards women for some reason, and have been unsuccessful in controlling women you know in real life. Then you would be wrong. I oppose abortion because it ends a human life generally in a very horrible way.Therefore, you have latched onto to the abortion issue as a means of exerting control over women in general, whom you seem to despise, because the abortion issue gives you a more socially 'acceptable' excuse for spewing your general hatred of women than slapping women around. You are funny! I don't really hate anyone. I do hate abortion. I may not respect some people but that is because they have what are, what in my opinion, immoral views Yes, people like you.I further think you probably belong to some sort of fundamentalist religion that is long on condemning people and damning them to hell and short on love and forgiveness. I don't really belong to any religion. Although I grew up in a christian home and generally accept those views, I don't agree with all of them.I think this fundamentalist type of religion further gives you a sense of moral superiority to others, which you desperately need as you likely feel very inferior in and of yourself. Well I do feel superior to those that want to and do butcher unborn children and to those that think it should be legal on a whim.Plus, it probably forms about the only medium for social interaction you have, as you seem to have such an abrasive personality combined with such a willingness to blast hate at people with whom you disagree that you likely have difficulty making and sustaining friendships. I will agree that I am abrasive at times. I have a sufficient number of friends that tolerate it. Probably, although I don't know for sure, because they believe I essentially have a good heart.
So jethro, now we are clear on what you think about me and what I think about you. Nothing you wrote was news to me. That is the position people take when they know their viewpoint is fundamentally immoral. Abortion is wrong. It is the butcering of an unborn, innocent child that didn't ask to be conceived. I will speak out against it. Because abortion is such a horrible and immoral act I will make statments that question your morality because of your support of abortion. If you and others hate me for that I will accept that as a badge of honor.
If you take that to an extreme as you see to do society could not function. There are a set of community statndards that must be upheld and enforced or that community will not survive. As for being judged, I EXPECT it. If you live in society you should expect it, too.
Nah, it doesn't really bother me. Just wanted to let you know where you stood with me so we'd be even.
If you take that to an extreme as you see to do society could not function. There are a set of community statndards that must be upheld and enforced or that community will not survive. As for being judged, I EXPECT it. If you live in society you should expect it, too.
Mmmm hmmm, well I think what is really pissing you off is that YOU aren't the one who gets to 'uphold and enforce' the community standards YOU want to impose. And I am upholding community standards--in this country, abortion is legal.
As for being judged, I render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and abide by the laws of my country and my community. As for being otherwise judged on my morality, I answer to God, not to jethro.
What, didn't you realize that Top Job had already been filled? ;)
Mmmm hmmm, well I think what is really pissing you off is that YOU aren't the one who gets to 'uphold and enforce' the community standards YOU want to impose. And I am upholding community standards--in this country, abortion is legal. There is difference between what is legal and what are community's standards. I am doing my part to uphold the community standard of respecting human life. Abortion is legal because a few immoral men on the US Supreme Court said it was so. Neither the constitution itself or the history surrounding the document supports the Court's decision. Just check out Justice White's dissent in Roe v. Wade. Moreover, the polls seem to indicate that the community personally opposes abortion on a whim. The community has been put in fear of being accused of being intolerant and judgmental if they come out and say that it should also be legally banned. Just look at the venom you spew at me.
As for being judged, I render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and abide by the laws of my country and my community. As for being otherwise judged on my morality, I answer to God, not to jethro. I did not say you had to answer to anyone. I simply said you are an immoral being.
How are you? I tend to stay away from this thread but I saw you here and thought I'd say hi. We would disagree on this issue I'm sure but I also know we could have a rational debate as neither one of us are extremists on the issue. But I wanted to say Hi and I hope all is well in your world.
Hi, LuvToFly! Been missing you, where the heck have you been? :) I'm doing great, have been much involved painting my house lately. Gosh, I'm a messy painter (in addition to being a disgusting immoral liberal--but then YOU know what a flaming liberal I am!). And also getting ready for a trip my husband and I are taking for our 7th anniversary. :)
THX, I have no doubt whatsoever that you and I could have a rational discussion on just about anything. I respect you very much, even though we disagree on some things. Same goes for LTF, by the way. :)
And I don't think your opinion is invalid, THX, just saying that it may be a little hard for a guy to comprehend impregnation by rape, that's all. Of course you are entitled to your completely mistaken opinion! ;)
Well, I am more of an extremist than you because I say that in any pregnancy the ONLY opinion that counts is the woman's and whoever she wants to consult... If she wants an abortion, no problem at all...
I am old enough to remember when abortion was outlawed, this is why I will fight for the right of a woman to a safe and legal abortion whenever SHE decides she needs it...
I feel that abortion is a pretty stupid method of birth control when there are so many better, more widely available, and inexpensive ones out there. Strangely, some of the same people who oppose abortion also oppose birth control and sex education, which makes absolutely NO sense to me.
And I would never be able to stand by and watch someone have to carry a child begotten by rape or demand that a girl carry her own brother (freely swiping this from a friend, who said it originally and probably better--you know who you are!).
That seems barbaric to me. And also, I don't believe it is my place or the place of the government to tell someone what she must do with her uterus. And it is largely the position of fanatics like jethro who have caused me to draw my line in the sand re keeping abortion available under almost any circumstances (can't support late term abortions except if the mother's life is endangered, for instance) because they WOULD force a girl impregnated through incest to have the child, and to hell with the mental, physical and emotional impact on her. Because apparently, HER life doesn't mean a thing. After all, she's just a woman, and probably a sinful one at that. She got herself pregnant, so she'll just have to deal with it, whether or not she had any choice about GETTING pregnant in the first place.
And yeah, yeah, yeah, jethro, you can skip the frothing at the mouth about what immoral murdering liberal monsters we are, just consider it already said.
You really ought to practice spittle conservation, you know. You might run out just when you really need some, say when you're standing on your box downtown telling all the passersby what immoral liberals they are. What a tragedy!
The problem of course is that no other means of contraception is fool-proof: condoms break, there are failures to the pill, diaphragms leak...
But even worse is that in the United States today there are powerful forces opposed to sex education in schools... There is a belief that if you keep the children ignorant, they won't have sex... something that we know is false from hundred of thousand of years of human development! After all, Holland with a much more permissive society has less abortion (about half)... The result is a lot of unneeded abortions...
As to late term abortions, well contarily to the screams of the fundies, they are never undertaken lightly and are mostly done for two reasons: harm to the woman or defective fetuses (hydrocephalus, spina bifida etc.) So as I wouldn't interfere in other medical decisions, I leave it to the woman and the therapeutic comittee of her hospital to decide.
The problem of course is that no other means of contraception is fool-proof: condoms break, there are failures to the pill, diaphragms leak...
That is true. But my concern is NOT using the appropriate birth control and using abortion as the first line of defense.
But even worse is that in the United States today there are powerful forces opposed to sex education in schools... There is a belief that if you keep the children ignorant, they won't have sex... something that we know is false from hundred of thousand of years of human development! After all, Holland with a much more permissive society has less abortion (about half)... The result is a lot of unneeded abortions...
I think they are afraid that sex education means teaching the Kama Sutra, complete with a black leather clad instructor doing in-class demonstrations. ;)
What is heartbreaking is to read about kids who think that they.....
---can't get pregnant if they are on their period
---can't get pregnant if there is no actual penetration
---can't get pregnant if they douche with Coke afterwards
---can't get pregnant if the guy 'pulls out'
---and in general just don't have any idea how conception actually takes place.
And if all parents would do the job of sitting their kids down (at an early age these days, unfortunately) and explain clearly what happens from A to Z and then explain what a huge commitment pregnancy is, as well as why they need to be emotionally mature enough to handle sex, then I suppose public sex education would not be needed. And I think that the parents should also explain about STDs, and explain that there is no way to 100% prevent them but condoms might help, and go on to talk about birth control. And this would also be a good opportunity for the parents to then state their own beliefs about having sex, and if they are completely opposed to premarital sex then explain exactly why, and don't leave it up to the kid to imagine things or decide the parents just don't want him/her to have any fun, thereby creating almost a dare to defy them.
After all, parents tell their kids not to touch things that are hot, not to eat dirt, to wash their hands after going to the bathroom (I hope!), not to cross the street without looking both ways, not to run with scissors, etc.--why leave them ignorant about the dangers of unprotected sex??? Seems like a recipe for disaster to me, as well as irresponsible parenting.
But since there are a lot of parents who are I guess too indifferent, too ignorant, too busy, too squeamish, too naive or too something else to have 'the talk' with their kids, someone has to let them know.
Because after all, the drive to have sex is one of the basic human drives (along with eating, sleeping, etc.), and Nature is powerfully urging sex beginning with adolescence by buffeting the body with hormones while at the same time our cultural is buffeting kids with the idea that they should look and act sexy. Seems it is only basic parenting to explain to kids what is going on in their bodies and what could happen if they fool around. Otherwise, we are just leaving them to the mercies of their hormones and whatever they can learn on the street, almost a sure combination for disaster. Or so it seems to me.
As to late term abortions, well contarily to the screams of the fundies, they are never undertaken lightly and are mostly done for two reasons: harm to the woman or defective fetuses (hydrocephalus, spina bifida etc.) So as I wouldn't interfere in other medical decisions, I leave it to the woman and the therapeutic comittee of her hospital to decide.
I don't know that much about the whys of late term abortions, but that is a good point about not interfering in medical decisions. The two examples you give make sense to me. Still, I confess the idea troubles me. :(
Here, let me save us all some time and jethro some spittle: 'It's selfish people like Lionne and Pitiricus who want to murder babies because they are disgusting, immoral, liberals. They like to murder babies before breakfast! They should have no right to have opinions on abortion because they are only women and should know their place! Immoral wenches, murderers, and worst of all liberals! And probably Democrats! Lepers! Outcasts! Unclean! Froth! Froth! Froth!'
You need to be reminded daily just how immoral your desire to allow the murdering to continue is.
You see, that's your problem, jethro. You think it's up to YOU to decide what other people 'need.' Hate to be the one to break it to you, but it isn't and never will be. Haven't you realized that all I have to do is put you on ignore and you can't say a darn thing to me? Haven't done it yet, because I'm keeping you around for the entertainment value. Froth on, Fanatic Boy! :)
I might run out when I just happen to come across you. That would be unfortunate.
Well, I guess you could try to spit on me. Hope you aren't overly fond of your teeth and your balls, in that case.
Typical that you would resort to physical attack. Bombed any abortion clinics lately? Shot any doctors or nurses? I know how you frothers like to honor the sanctity of all human life by killing people you disagree with.
and yet the people who are the insensitive ones (yes, i believe that's the term that was used), are the ones who would support a woman's right to have an abortion after being raped. Well obviously you have no sympathy for the unborn child which did not asked to be conceived or dismembered. I call that insensitive. It doesn't surprise me.
usually, women who are raped don't ask to be raped either. otherwise it wouldn't be rape now would it? i have a hell of a lot more sympathy for the rape victim than i do for that unborn child.
usually, women who are raped don't ask to be raped either. Did I say that they did? No.
i have a hell of a lot more sympathy for the rape victim than i do for that unborn child. Two wrongs don't make a right. But then liberals don't understand that.
Did I say that they did? No
Well obviously you have no sympathy for the unborn child which did not asked to be conceived or dismembered.
you may as well have, jethro.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
oh the hypocrisy that abounds here.
you may as well have, jethro. No, it wasn't what I said and it wasn't what I meant. I think you know that.
oh the hypocrisy that abounds here. No hypocrisy on my part. Can you say the same for yourself? Not if you are honest.
i won't deny that i can be hypocritical some times. but you know exactly what i'm talking about with that statement, and its not abortion.
as for the comments about women asking to be raped, it doesn't take a degree in psychology here to make what seems to be the obvious judgement that you've got more sympathy for the unborn child than the rape victim. that's what i was trying to get at with my statement. and in my mind, there's something very very wrong with that kind of logic. if hypothetically, your wife or daughter were raped and became pregnant from the incident, and she wanted an abortion, would you still hold your opinions?
won't deny that i can be hypocritical some times. but you know exactly what i'm talking about with that statement, and its not abortion.
No, I don't know what you mean.
Not to interrupt but, I would still hold that opinion.
as for the comments about women asking to be raped, it doesn't take a degree in psychology here to make what seems to be the obvious judgement that you've got more sympathy for the unborn child than the rape victim. A personcan have sympathy for both. I don't think that one must condone abortion of a baby conceieved through rape to be sympathetic to the victim.that's what i was trying to get at with my statement. and in my mind, there's something very very wrong with that kind of logic. I suppose if you understood the logic you wouldn't find it wrong.if hypothetically, your wife or daughter were raped and became pregnant from the incident, and she wanted an abortion, would you still hold your opinions? Oh I see you just want to get rid of the innocent unborn child. It is not the child's fault that it was conceieved as the result of rape.
well then jethro, you need to go back and refresh yourself on some of the discussions we've had earlier in the thread.
jt, would that be before or after you emptied the glock into the perpetrator? :)
well then jethro, you need to go back and refresh yourself on some of the discussions we've had earlier in the thread.
It would be easier if you would just state directly what it is that you mean.
It is not the child's fault that it was conceieved as the result of rape.
nor is it the mother's, yet in your ideal world she'd carry the child anyway. in a situation like that, i honestly couldn't care less about the unborn child. and if you wanna condemn me to hell for it, be my guest.
nor is it the mother's, yet in your ideal world she'd carry the child anyway. in a situation like that, i honestly couldn't care less about the unborn child. and if you wanna condemn me to hell for it, be my guest.
The point is this: why should an innocent child be put to death because it was conceived as a result of rape? At least you are one proabortionist that is honest. "i honestly couldn't care less about the unborn child" should be the abortion lobbies slogan.
jt, would that be before or after you emptied the glock into the perpetrator? :)
Either will do. :-)
But seriously, I would only empty my Glock into someone as the last resort to stop a murder.
Since there have been studies that suggest a connection between rapists and their lineage...i.e. a Rapist may pass along a "Rape Gene" to his offspring, then why would anyone NOT want an abortion, if raped?
If this is the case. Why don't we isolate the "Rape Gene" and abort all rapists? Isolate the "Murder Gene" and abort all murderers. Isolate the Liberal gene and........... :-)
But seriously, that's a whole different debate.
Even if this is valid, how much of it is nature versus nurture?
ares 8/19/02 1:45pm
Isn't it possible that Jethro feels the trauma of rape compounded by the trauma of abortion would be an insensitive thing to support for someone who has suffered so much from a rape?
But still, the child of a rape should have a right to exist. If it is too painful for the mother to raise and love this child, adoption still offers a positive solution and future for this life.
'Bill - Fold' 8/20/02 5:00am
There have also been studies that suggest child molesters were victims of child molestation themselves. If you follow this line of thought then as soon as a child is molested, they should be put to death so they don't grow up and become a child molester.
Hmmmm.....it seems to me that unless you have the capability of being raped and impregnated against your will it's awfully easy to talk about the 'right' of that child to be born. Apparently, some of you have decided that the trauma of an abortion would be less than the trauma of having to spend nine months carrying a child you didn't want, didn't ask for, and fathered by someone who committed horrible violence upon you. Speaking from personal or potential experience are you? Or just deciding what is more traumatic for someone else without them having any say in the matter?
And what if the child was conceived via incest? What are the adoption prospects of a child fathered by its own grandfather? Especially if the child is born physically or mentally deformed? Or should we demand that the birth mother raise her own brother or sister? Or maybe that child should be just dumped into the foster care system until it is 18 if no one wants to adopt it. Oh, and what happens when the child wants to know who its parents were? Nah, let's just ensure that it gets born and then wash our hands of it.
Hmmmm.....it seems to me that unless you have the capability of being raped and impregnated against your will it's awfully easy to talk about the 'right' of that child to be born. It is a question of maorality and value for human life. That is true regardless if rape is interjected into the discussion. I suppose you believe that since men can't concieve children then they should have to say in the discussion of life and death under any circumstance.Apparently, some of you have decided that the trauma of an abortion would be less than the trauma of having to spend nine months carrying a child you didn't want, didn't ask for, and fathered by someone who committed horrible violence upon you. My point was that the unborn child is human and has began its existence and that morally there is no right to end that life.
And what if the child was conceived via incest? What are the adoption prospects of a child fathered by its own grandfather? Especially if the child is born physically or mentally deformed? Or should we demand that the birth mother raise her own brother or sister? Or maybe that child should be just dumped into the foster care system until it is 18 if no one wants to adopt it. Oh, and what happens when the child wants to know who its parents were? Nah, let's just ensure that it gets born and then wash our hands of it. And your view is to kill the child and wash the blood from your hands.
sigh
I was hoping for some thoughtful discussion on the above issues and all I got was jethro. :)
One correction jethro: I am not advocating 'killing the child' conceived through rape or incest. If the woman or girl in question decides on her own, without coercion, shame inducing pressure, or arm twisting from anyone, that she still wishes to carry and bear the child, then I wholly support her choice. HER choice. Not yours.
You wouldn't know thoughtful if it bit you in the butt, L.
L. you are advocating killing the child. Every word that you write that supports abortion is advocating killing the child. Only a moron would think that because they think a woman should have the legal right to kill the child they are not advocating the killing.
If the woman or girl in question decides on her own, without coercion, shame inducing pressure, or arm twisting from anyone, that she still wishes to carry and bear the child, then I wholly support her choice. HER choice
And now you take your advocation of the killing even further by stating there shouldn't be any coercion, pressure shame or arm twisting from anyone. That is much different than saying it should be legal. You are an advocate of the killing, L. Do you enjoy the thought of the buthcery?
Hmmmm.....it seems to me that unless you have the capability of being raped and impregnated against your will it's awfully easy to talk about the 'right' of that child to be born.
That's so unfair.
THX,
Unfair to whom? Unfair how?
You're basically saying "Men can't be raped, therefore their opinion is invalid".
At least that's how I read it.
Nope, I'm saying men can't bear children and therefore they can't really understand what it means to be forced to bear a child conceived through rape.
Men CAN be raped, actually. But lucky for them, they won't get pregnant and be forced to carry a child that was fathered by the rapist.
But the rape thing is just a facade isn't, L? A facade for your view that a woman should be able to dismmember her child at any time for any reason.
jethro bodine 8/21/02 7:30am
No, jethro, the rape, incest, and threat to the mother's life 'things' are deeply troubling issues to me.
But since you are so free to tell me what you think about me and my views on a personal level, and since that kind of posting isn't disallowed here, I will tell you what I think about you on a personal level.
I think you aren't very old, aren't very smart, and aren't very well educated. I think you are very resentful towards women for some reason, and have been unsuccessful in controlling women you know in real life. Therefore, you have latched onto to the abortion issue as a means of exerting control over women in general, whom you seem to despise, because the abortion issue gives you a more socially 'acceptable' excuse for spewing your general hatred of women than slapping women around. I further think you probably belong to some sort of fundamentalist religion that is long on condemning people and damning them to hell and short on love and forgiveness. I think this fundamentalist type of religion further gives you a sense of moral superiority to others, which you desperately need as you likely feel very inferior in and of yourself. Plus, it probably forms about the only medium for social interaction you have, as you seem to have such an abrasive personality combined with such a willingness to blast hate at people with whom you disagree that you likely have difficulty making and sustaining friendships.
So jethro, now we are clear on what you think about me and what I think about you.
I think you aren't very old, aren't very smart, and aren't very well educated. I am nearly 40. My guess is I have more education than you do.I think you are very resentful towards women for some reason, and have been unsuccessful in controlling women you know in real life. Then you would be wrong. I oppose abortion because it ends a human life generally in a very horrible way.Therefore, you have latched onto to the abortion issue as a means of exerting control over women in general, whom you seem to despise, because the abortion issue gives you a more socially 'acceptable' excuse for spewing your general hatred of women than slapping women around. You are funny! I don't really hate anyone. I do hate abortion. I may not respect some people but that is because they have what are, what in my opinion, immoral views Yes, people like you.I further think you probably belong to some sort of fundamentalist religion that is long on condemning people and damning them to hell and short on love and forgiveness. I don't really belong to any religion. Although I grew up in a christian home and generally accept those views, I don't agree with all of them.I think this fundamentalist type of religion further gives you a sense of moral superiority to others, which you desperately need as you likely feel very inferior in and of yourself. Well I do feel superior to those that want to and do butcher unborn children and to those that think it should be legal on a whim.Plus, it probably forms about the only medium for social interaction you have, as you seem to have such an abrasive personality combined with such a willingness to blast hate at people with whom you disagree that you likely have difficulty making and sustaining friendships. I will agree that I am abrasive at times. I have a sufficient number of friends that tolerate it. Probably, although I don't know for sure, because they believe I essentially have a good heart.
So jethro, now we are clear on what you think about me and what I think about you. Nothing you wrote was news to me. That is the position people take when they know their viewpoint is fundamentally immoral. Abortion is wrong. It is the butcering of an unborn, innocent child that didn't ask to be conceived. I will speak out against it. Because abortion is such a horrible and immoral act I will make statments that question your morality because of your support of abortion. If you and others hate me for that I will accept that as a badge of honor.
Mmmmm hmmmmm, jethro, that's nice. As I said, that's what I think about you, and nothing you have said does anything to change that.
Personally, I think you are immoral.
And I think it's pretty clear that you don't subscribe to the Christian view of 'judge not, lest ye be judged.'
And what makes you think I or anyone else care what you think about morality anyway?
Your opinion of your own moral superiority is cute, but it is meaningless. :)
If you take that to an extreme as you see to do society could not function. There are a set of community statndards that must be upheld and enforced or that community will not survive. As for being judged, I EXPECT it. If you live in society you should expect it, too.
Nah, it doesn't really bother me. Just wanted to let you know where you stood with me so we'd be even.
If you take that to an extreme as you see to do society could not function. There are a set of community statndards that must be upheld and enforced or that community will not survive. As for being judged, I EXPECT it. If you live in society you should expect it, too.
Mmmm hmmm, well I think what is really pissing you off is that YOU aren't the one who gets to 'uphold and enforce' the community standards YOU want to impose. And I am upholding community standards--in this country, abortion is legal.
As for being judged, I render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and abide by the laws of my country and my community. As for being otherwise judged on my morality, I answer to God, not to jethro.
What, didn't you realize that Top Job had already been filled? ;)
Mmmm hmmm, well I think what is really pissing you off is that YOU aren't the one who gets to 'uphold and enforce' the community standards YOU want to impose. And I am upholding community standards--in this country, abortion is legal. There is difference between what is legal and what are community's standards. I am doing my part to uphold the community standard of respecting human life. Abortion is legal because a few immoral men on the US Supreme Court said it was so. Neither the constitution itself or the history surrounding the document supports the Court's decision. Just check out Justice White's dissent in Roe v. Wade. Moreover, the polls seem to indicate that the community personally opposes abortion on a whim. The community has been put in fear of being accused of being intolerant and judgmental if they come out and say that it should also be legally banned. Just look at the venom you spew at me.
As for being judged, I render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and abide by the laws of my country and my community. As for being otherwise judged on my morality, I answer to God, not to jethro. I did not say you had to answer to anyone. I simply said you are an immoral being.
Hi L. Lionne, :)
How are you? I tend to stay away from this thread but I saw you here and thought I'd say hi.
We would disagree on this issue I'm sure but I also know we could have a rational debate as neither one of us are extremists on the issue. But I wanted to say Hi and I hope all is well in your world.
L.L. Sorry I wasn't clear, I didn't mean just the rape but becoming pregnant as well.
IMHO It's still unfair of you. Just because I can't get pregnant doesn't mean my opinion isn't valid. :-)
Anyway, suffice it to say that I would allow abortion in the case of rape.
I still don't think it's right but I would allow it.
Hi, LuvToFly! Been missing you, where the heck have you been? :) I'm doing great, have been much involved painting my house lately. Gosh, I'm a messy painter (in addition to being a disgusting immoral liberal--but then YOU know what a flaming liberal I am!). And also getting ready for a trip my husband and I are taking for our 7th anniversary. :)
THX, I have no doubt whatsoever that you and I could have a rational discussion on just about anything. I respect you very much, even though we disagree on some things. Same goes for LTF, by the way. :)
And I don't think your opinion is invalid, THX, just saying that it may be a little hard for a guy to comprehend impregnation by rape, that's all. Of course you are entitled to your completely mistaken opinion! ;)
Of course you are entitled to your completely mistaken opinion! ;)
As are you.
:-)
Sorry Rob, L. Lionne is an extremist on this issue.
Now, now, jethro get it right. That should be a 'disgusting, immoral liberal' on this issue.
no, no, no, lionness. its a "disgusting, immoral, liberal exremist". get it right.
I most humbly beg your pardon, ares. :)
no, no, no, lionness. its a "disgusting, immoral, liberal exremist". get it right.
It was about time you people got something right.
It was about time you people got something right.
oh jesus christ. just because i don't agree with your conservative extremist opinion, doesn't magically make you right and me wrong.
oh jesus christ. just because i don't agree with your conservative extremist opinion, doesn't magically make you right and me wrong.
Just when you were on a streak you go and ruin it. Your opinion is extreme in its disregard for human life and there is nothing "magic" about it.
Bonjour Madame la lionne...
Well, I am more of an extremist than you because I say that in any pregnancy the ONLY opinion that counts is the woman's and whoever she wants to consult... If she wants an abortion, no problem at all...
I am old enough to remember when abortion was outlawed, this is why I will fight for the right of a woman to a safe and legal abortion whenever SHE decides she needs it...
Bonsoir, Madame Pitiricus. :)
I feel that abortion is a pretty stupid method of birth control when there are so many better, more widely available, and inexpensive ones out there. Strangely, some of the same people who oppose abortion also oppose birth control and sex education, which makes absolutely NO sense to me.
And I would never be able to stand by and watch someone have to carry a child begotten by rape or demand that a girl carry her own brother (freely swiping this from a friend, who said it originally and probably better--you know who you are!).
That seems barbaric to me. And also, I don't believe it is my place or the place of the government to tell someone what she must do with her uterus. And it is largely the position of fanatics like jethro who have caused me to draw my line in the sand re keeping abortion available under almost any circumstances (can't support late term abortions except if the mother's life is endangered, for instance) because they WOULD force a girl impregnated through incest to have the child, and to hell with the mental, physical and emotional impact on her. Because apparently, HER life doesn't mean a thing. After all, she's just a woman, and probably a sinful one at that. She got herself pregnant, so she'll just have to deal with it, whether or not she had any choice about GETTING pregnant in the first place.
And yeah, yeah, yeah, jethro, you can skip the frothing at the mouth about what immoral murdering liberal monsters we are, just consider it already said.
You really ought to practice spittle conservation, you know. You might run out just when you really need some, say when you're standing on your box downtown telling all the passersby what immoral liberals they are. What a tragedy!
L. Lionne 8/21/02 7:02pm
The problem of course is that no other means of contraception is fool-proof: condoms break, there are failures to the pill, diaphragms leak...
But even worse is that in the United States today there are powerful forces opposed to sex education in schools... There is a belief that if you keep the children ignorant, they won't have sex... something that we know is false from hundred of thousand of years of human development! After all, Holland with a much more permissive society has less abortion (about half)... The result is a lot of unneeded abortions...
As to late term abortions, well contarily to the screams of the fundies, they are never undertaken lightly and are mostly done for two reasons: harm to the woman or defective fetuses (hydrocephalus, spina bifida etc.) So as I wouldn't interfere in other medical decisions, I leave it to the woman and the therapeutic comittee of her hospital to decide.
The problem of course is that no other means of contraception is fool-proof: condoms break, there are failures to the pill, diaphragms leak...
That is true. But my concern is NOT using the appropriate birth control and using abortion as the first line of defense.
But even worse is that in the United States today there are powerful forces opposed to sex education in schools... There is a belief that if you keep the children ignorant, they won't have sex... something that we know is false from hundred of thousand of years of human development! After all, Holland with a much more permissive society has less abortion (about half)... The result is a lot of unneeded abortions...
I think they are afraid that sex education means teaching the Kama Sutra, complete with a black leather clad instructor doing in-class demonstrations. ;)
What is heartbreaking is to read about kids who think that they.....
---can't get pregnant if they are on their period
---can't get pregnant if there is no actual penetration
---can't get pregnant if they douche with Coke afterwards
---can't get pregnant if the guy 'pulls out'
---and in general just don't have any idea how conception actually takes place.
And if all parents would do the job of sitting their kids down (at an early age these days, unfortunately) and explain clearly what happens from A to Z and then explain what a huge commitment pregnancy is, as well as why they need to be emotionally mature enough to handle sex, then I suppose public sex education would not be needed. And I think that the parents should also explain about STDs, and explain that there is no way to 100% prevent them but condoms might help, and go on to talk about birth control. And this would also be a good opportunity for the parents to then state their own beliefs about having sex, and if they are completely opposed to premarital sex then explain exactly why, and don't leave it up to the kid to imagine things or decide the parents just don't want him/her to have any fun, thereby creating almost a dare to defy them.
After all, parents tell their kids not to touch things that are hot, not to eat dirt, to wash their hands after going to the bathroom (I hope!), not to cross the street without looking both ways, not to run with scissors, etc.--why leave them ignorant about the dangers of unprotected sex??? Seems like a recipe for disaster to me, as well as irresponsible parenting.
But since there are a lot of parents who are I guess too indifferent, too ignorant, too busy, too squeamish, too naive or too something else to have 'the talk' with their kids, someone has to let them know.
Because after all, the drive to have sex is one of the basic human drives (along with eating, sleeping, etc.), and Nature is powerfully urging sex beginning with adolescence by buffeting the body with hormones while at the same time our cultural is buffeting kids with the idea that they should look and act sexy. Seems it is only basic parenting to explain to kids what is going on in their bodies and what could happen if they fool around. Otherwise, we are just leaving them to the mercies of their hormones and whatever they can learn on the street, almost a sure combination for disaster. Or so it seems to me.
I don't know that much about the whys of late term abortions, but that is a good point about not interfering in medical decisions. The two examples you give make sense to me. Still, I confess the idea troubles me. :(
Here, let me save us all some time and jethro some spittle: 'It's selfish people like Lionne and Pitiricus who want to murder babies because they are disgusting, immoral, liberals. They like to murder babies before breakfast! They should have no right to have opinions on abortion because they are only women and should know their place! Immoral wenches, murderers, and worst of all liberals! And probably Democrats! Lepers! Outcasts! Unclean! Froth! Froth! Froth!'
You need to be reminded daily just how immoral your desire to allow the murdering to continue is.
You need to be reminded daily just how immoral your desire to allow the murdering to continue is.
You see, that's your problem, jethro. You think it's up to YOU to decide what other people 'need.' Hate to be the one to break it to you, but it isn't and never will be. Haven't you realized that all I have to do is put you on ignore and you can't say a darn thing to me? Haven't done it yet, because I'm keeping you around for the entertainment value. Froth on, Fanatic Boy! :)
I might run out when I just happen to come across you. That would be unfortunate.
Well, I guess you could try to spit on me. Hope you aren't overly fond of your teeth and your balls, in that case.
Typical that you would resort to physical attack. Bombed any abortion clinics lately? Shot any doctors or nurses? I know how you frothers like to honor the sanctity of all human life by killing people you disagree with.