seems more of an exhibition of male hormones than a debate on abortion here.
Or is the title a perverse play on words – and this is really an argument about some avant-garde Seattle Rock band.
If this is about abortion – why are western voices where the procedure is hardly relevant and alternatives abound - cackling with ignorance?
Ask the 3rd world 19 year old female who takes a break from toiling in 100+ degree sun to move to the shade of a banyan tree where she births her fourth child in as many years, cuts the umbilical and saves the placenta , wipes the blood off using leaves from the tree, pushes the bloody infant to her sore breast – and goes back to work to pick Indian cotton for the $100 cotton jeans which will be torn to appear fashionable in a NYC dance club.
I once stumbled into a Forum in defense of Taiwanese - and was rudely told it was a music Forum. Hence the hesitancy.
Shock value? The topic itself transcends any shock value that folks like me can provide.
My stand is that the West has no business talking, moralizing, advocating for or against abortion.
It is an issue for 3rd world nations - where it is practiced the most and needed the most.
Abortion is a dreadful form of family planning - but it is a necessary in nations like India and China .
In the West there are alternatives and abortion should really be unnecessary.
If health care and hygiene and access to safe and sure methods of family planning become available in 3rd world nations, abortion will recede as a popular method there also.
Morality of the issue is irrelevant.
To me, the callous attitude of the haves that allows humans to starve to death and die of diseases that can be easily cured is a more heinous crime than abortion.
Medicine in nations like India and China has advanced. It is recognized in these nations that safe abortion procedures are necessary. And , in their own stumbling, lethargic way these nations will device abortion procedures relevant and practical to the geography.
You Caucasians concentrate on Alzheimer’s, senility , obesity and all the lifestyle related diseases that result from your decadent lifestyle.
I don't think anyone in the First World would want to trade medical problems with the Third World. Some are truly tragic. And I wouldn't want to be the person to stand in judgement of any woman who would, when confronted with poverty, make a decision for an abortion.
But you seem to think that you're certainly entitled to stand in judgement of people who suffer from the "lifestyle related diseases" that you mention. Isn't pain and suffering still pain and suffering, regardless of economic status?
You seem to ask for limitless compassion from others, but dole out your own with qualifications.
I don't think anyone in the First World would want to trade medical problems with the Third World. Some are truly tragic.
Like AIDS. You Caucasians will not even share the cures.
You seem to ask for limitless compassion from others
typical reaction from the Judeo-Christian credo that compassion is the path to salvation. Not the genuine exercise of it - but the mere flaunting gestures!
"typical reaction from the Judeo-Christian credo that compassion is the path to salvation. Not the genuine exercise of it - but the mere flaunting gestures!"
I don't know what that means, or it's relevance to what I was talking about.
bill fold ?!! - 'Bill - Fold' 9/3/02 5:17am- like the one the Yankee Gee Eye used to flash at the nubile 12 year old nymph’s pimp in Vietnam?
We don't have an effective treatment, let alone a "CURE" for aids in THIS country, you dope.
The fags who frequent the bathhouses of Frisco, LA and NYC today push the limits of their hedonistic lifestyle and certainly think you are the screwball – they are back to their 70’s lifestyle as if AIDS has been a disease of yesteryear.
And as for the cure – what are all those cocktail pill medications my health care dollars fund ? And gee whiz – Magic Johnson must have really died and been re-incarnated.
HIV has a cure and the pain of AIDS can certainly be alleviated. And by the way – the innovator was the product of immigrants – A Dr. Ho ( not Father Christmas but David)
As for the millions doled out to Africa – the parasitic medical mega companies refused to sell the AIDS cocktail to desperate Africans for a subsidized price. Until a plucky firm from India reverse engineered the drugs and was willing to give it to Africans for 1/100 of the cost the Western leeches were charging.
Transcend your insular boundaries and learn about the rest of the globe - ignoramus.
I too am an American bozo head – the newer , emancipated and productive kind . Not your ilk - the inbred Caucasian of Appalachia – but a brown one from India. Go back to your moonshine and tobacco chewing. We will return this nation to the glory you mongoloids dissipated.
In closing – and quoting the bard ( with a bit of liberty)
Coming back to the subject of abortion - why is it even a relevant procedure in the Western world - awash with milder and benign alternatives??
Ultimately , it is a woman's decision - it is her body and her pain and her bonding and her anguish. Funny that a bunch of pederastic priests should moralize to women about it.
But why would a woman prefer the cataclysm of an abortion - when she has everything from the pill, to RU486 to tied up tubes to the male getting a vasectomy to what not.
However, to enforce this on 3rd world women also in the name of some moralistic jingoism is perverse.
Man, where have these people been coming from lately?
If this is a private Forum, where like-minded comrades can exchange your own extremist ideas in conviviality without any dissent - then please state so in the banner. Us Homo sapiens with thinking minds will then not intrude into your den of insular thinking.
And also remember - education has expanded the horizons of folks all over the globe. We 3rd worlders can give as well as we get. Colonialism is a thing of the past.
Why no outrage against crumpled and well-worn bill fold??
Ultimately , it is a woman's decision - it is her body and her pain and her bonding and her anguish. Funny that a bunch of pederastic priests should moralize to women about it.
Apparently you don't believe in morality. Ultimately abortion is the killing of a human being.
So we shouldn't care about both. Seems silly to me that we would only concentrate on one issue or limit yourself to caring about only one thing. You can't generalize and say that people that care about the aborton issue also don't care about kids that are here. So should we not care about adults or other issues that face adults until all adults are fed clothed and housed ? See what I'm getting at ?
** To all on this thread and others as well. ENOUGH of the personal attacks, you know who we are talking about. take issue with their issues and disagree all you want. Keep the personal insults or attacks to yourself. e-gram them if you want and the person can ignore it etc. But keep it off here. Enough already. Try acting like adults and stick to debate and learn how to disagree without attacking someone because you don't like what they say. It won't be tolerated anymore.
My question is, do the antiabortionists put as much energy into insuring that children all over the world are properly taken care of as they do arguing a pointless issue like abortion?
Have any of them done a stint with the Peace Corps? Have any of them paid for a college education for any child other than their own? Have they adopted unwanted orphans?
And, why is it not ok to have an abortion, but it is ok to bomb a womens clinic and kill viable lives, some of whom are actually pregnant and want to keep their babies?
According to medical science, abortion performed after the first trimester is indeed murder.
At 12 weeks, the fetus' heart begins to beat and becomes a viable life.
During the first trimester, a fetus is nothing more than a bunch of growing cells and aborting is not murder.
Get over yourself.
Actually I think that the heart begins beating before the 12th week and I think as early as the 6 the week. At conception there is a growing human being. That is a fact. You can call it a group of cells but then, also as a matter of fact, so are you. The issue is human intervention in that life. When an abortion occurs it is ending that life.
My question is, do the antiabortionists put as much energy into insuring that children all over the world are properly taken care of as they do arguing a pointless issue like abortion?
To them and me it's not pointless to you it might be. They and I see it as killing a child. I am not an absolutist. If the mothers life is in danger or it was rape/incsest. As far as putting energy into the topic of abortion I'm sure that there are issues that you put your energy into that others would say, hey why don't you worry about that. Everyone has issues that they are passionate about, to say that you can only care about one issue at a time or that caring about one disqualifies an opinion seems wrong to me.
Have any of them done a stint with the Peace Corps?
Hard to say, have you ? I mean you were the one who brought up starving kids. I personally haven't.
Have any of them paid for a college education for any child other than their own?
We do all the time through taxes that go to universities.
Have they adopted unwanted orphans?
I'm sure some have.
And, why is it not ok to have an abortion, but it is ok to bomb a womens clinic and kill viable lives, some of whom are actually pregnant and want to keep their babies?
I don't think anyone here thinks it's o.k that's the extreemist view. Frankly those people sicken me and should be prosecuted. They harm the cause more than help it. Same with people who blow up labs because they don't like animal testing, they hurt their cause more than help.
my personal faith instructs me that eating beef in not only immoral , but a sacrosanct violation of my creed. Most people in this country brazenly violate my beliefs. Should I collectively condemn their immorality and consign them to eternal damnation??
From now on if someone attacks you personally try to let it go, the person who did it will be dealt with. O.K. it's hard to walk away I understand, believe me. Discussion and disagreement are just fine and there's a line that can be crossed. It's hard when emotions get the best of us but turns the board into giant pissing matches. So to all concerned please refrain from them and everything will be hunky dory o.k ?
The priority should NOT be elimination of abortion.
The priority should BE the elimination of abortion.
my personal faith instructs me that eating beef in not only immoral , but a sacrosanct violation of my creed. Most people in this country brazenly violate my beliefs. Should I collectively condemn their immorality and consign them to eternal damnation??
Go right ahead if you feel strongly about it. However, don't see the relationship between killing unborn children and killing cows.
And I don't mean paying for education with taxes. We all know that the chance of a homeless child going to college is slim at best. I mean, taking a homeless child off the street and sending them to college. Do the antiabortionists put their money where their mouths are?
Very few have adopted compared to the amount of antiabortionists there are.
I know a lot of adoptive parents, and none of them is against abortion. They know how many unwanted children there already are, and they know how expensive it is to adopt one. None of them see any reason to force the continuation of creating unwanted children.
That's great that you do all those things. I don't talk about what charitable things I do as a matter of principal. I will tell you that I do what I am able to do and leave it at that. You're looking to hold someone who is opposed to abortion to your standard of what you think they should do. That's a slippery slope because I'm sure their are areas or issues you care about that someone could ask the same questions of you. If someone doesn't adopt a child does not mean that their opinion is not valid on abortion. It would be like saying hey you're not in the armed forces and shouldn't have an opinion on going to war. Or hey your not a man so you shouldn't have a valid opinion on what men do. Now do you see what I'm getting at? I don't think you want ot go down that road. There are many issues that you might disqualify yourself from if you hold yourself to the same standard.
It was good not to read your stupid postings for a few days fold. You damn idiot.
It reads just like a Hallmark card...
Maybe you should take the idea and run with it. There is bound to be a market for it in this day and time.
TMK, you could call it .........
Hatemark,,,,,,,when you don't care enough to send the best.
Ig No Rants. When you care enough to prove your the very best.
Jethro's posts are like fortune cookie messages in an abusive Chinese restaurant.
LOL!
LOL Rick,
And instead of lucky numbers on the bottom it says, You don't deserve to win anything!
You wisely gave me top billing, Bill.
seems more of an exhibition of male hormones than a debate on abortion here.
Or is the title a perverse play on words – and this is really an argument about some avant-garde Seattle Rock band.
If this is about abortion – why are western voices where the procedure is hardly relevant and alternatives abound - cackling with ignorance?
Ask the 3rd world 19 year old female who takes a break from toiling in 100+ degree sun to move to the shade of a banyan tree where she births her fourth child in as many years, cuts the umbilical and saves the placenta , wipes the blood off using leaves from the tree, pushes the bloody infant to her sore breast – and goes back to work to pick Indian cotton for the $100 cotton jeans which will be torn to appear fashionable in a NYC dance club.
I don't think Seattle rock bands are avant-garde or torn jeans fashionable anymore.
I don't think anyone here is trying to minimize human suffering, Naradar,
Why are you trying to maximize righteous indignation besides shock value?
Rick - Rick 9/1/02 10:02am
I once stumbled into a Forum in defense of Taiwanese - and was rudely told it was a music Forum. Hence the hesitancy.
Shock value? The topic itself transcends any shock value that folks like me can provide.
My stand is that the West has no business talking, moralizing, advocating for or against abortion.
It is an issue for 3rd world nations - where it is practiced the most and needed the most.
Abortion is a dreadful form of family planning - but it is a necessary in nations like India and China .
In the West there are alternatives and abortion should really be unnecessary.
If health care and hygiene and access to safe and sure methods of family planning become available in 3rd world nations, abortion will recede as a popular method there also.
Morality of the issue is irrelevant.
To me, the callous attitude of the haves that allows humans to starve to death and die of diseases that can be easily cured is a more heinous crime than abortion.
Medicine in nations like India and China has advanced. It is recognized in these nations that safe abortion procedures are necessary. And , in their own stumbling, lethargic way these nations will device abortion procedures relevant and practical to the geography.
You Caucasians concentrate on Alzheimer’s, senility , obesity and all the lifestyle related diseases that result from your decadent lifestyle.
Naradar:
I don't think anyone in the First World would want to trade medical problems with the Third World. Some are truly tragic. And I wouldn't want to be the person to stand in judgement of any woman who would, when confronted with poverty, make a decision for an abortion.
But you seem to think that you're certainly entitled to stand in judgement of people who suffer from the "lifestyle related diseases" that you mention. Isn't pain and suffering still pain and suffering, regardless of economic status?
You seem to ask for limitless compassion from others, but dole out your own with qualifications.
Naradar is Jethro's evil twin.
I don't think anyone in the First World would want to trade medical problems with the Third World. Some are truly tragic.
Like AIDS. You Caucasians will not even share the cures.
You seem to ask for limitless compassion from others
typical reaction from the Judeo-Christian credo that compassion is the path to salvation. Not the genuine exercise of it - but the mere flaunting gestures!
say what - Naradar is Jethro's evil twin.
jethro Tull?
"typical reaction from the Judeo-Christian credo that compassion is the path to salvation. Not the genuine exercise of it - but the mere flaunting gestures!"
I don't know what that means, or it's relevance to what I was talking about.
I thought English was an alien tongue to me!!
compassion, forgiveness, repentence are motivations you Christians repeatedly quote in trying to rescue us 3rd worlders from a supposed moral morass.
You insinuate I yearn for compassion but castigate your excessive lifestyle.
Pat Robertson mentality.
I don't know anything about, you, Naradar or your yearnings.
By comparing me to Pat Robertson, you obviously know nothing about me.
You seem more interested in lecturing than discussing.
Well, you're in good company. There's a lot of that around here. Carry on with someone else.
Hey Naradar, you forgot this part of Ricks post in your reply:
"...but dole out your own with qualifications."
btw: You're way of base comparing Rick to Pat Robertson.
Leave your bigotry and bias at home and actually get to know someone before you start spewing your stereotypes and labels at people.
Aqualung
:-)
I suppose us caucasians won't share our cure for Aqualung with Third World countries too...
Joe
bill fold ?!! - 'Bill - Fold' 9/3/02 5:17am- like the one the Yankee Gee Eye used to flash at the nubile 12 year old nymph’s pimp in Vietnam?
We don't have an effective treatment, let alone a "CURE" for aids in THIS country, you dope.
The fags who frequent the bathhouses of Frisco, LA and NYC today push the limits of their hedonistic lifestyle and certainly think you are the screwball – they are back to their 70’s lifestyle as if AIDS has been a disease of yesteryear.
And as for the cure – what are all those cocktail pill medications my health care dollars fund ? And gee whiz – Magic Johnson must have really died and been re-incarnated.
HIV has a cure and the pain of AIDS can certainly be alleviated. And by the way – the innovator was the product of immigrants – A Dr. Ho ( not Father Christmas but David)
As for the millions doled out to Africa – the parasitic medical mega companies refused to sell the AIDS cocktail to desperate Africans for a subsidized price. Until a plucky firm from India reverse engineered the drugs and was willing to give it to Africans for 1/100 of the cost the Western leeches were charging.
Transcend your insular boundaries and learn about the rest of the globe - ignoramus.
I too am an American bozo head – the newer , emancipated and productive kind . Not your ilk - the inbred Caucasian of Appalachia – but a brown one from India. Go back to your moonshine and tobacco chewing. We will return this nation to the glory you mongoloids dissipated.
In closing – and quoting the bard ( with a bit of liberty)
And the sand-castle virtues are all swept away
in the tidal destruction the moral melee.
The elastic retreat rings the close of play
as the last wave uncovers the newfangled way.
But your new shoes are worn at the heels
and your suntan does rapidly peel
and your wise men know how it feels
to be thick as a brick.
Coming back to the subject of abortion - why is it even a relevant procedure in the Western world - awash with milder and benign alternatives??
Ultimately , it is a woman's decision - it is her body and her pain and her bonding and her anguish. Funny that a bunch of pederastic priests should moralize to women about it.
But why would a woman prefer the cataclysm of an abortion - when she has everything from the pill, to RU486 to tied up tubes to the male getting a vasectomy to what not.
However, to enforce this on 3rd world women also in the name of some moralistic jingoism is perverse.
Silliness rampant! Hi guys, miss me?
never had the pleasure of your thoughts madam - but that sultry smile is certainly bewitching. Pardon my effrontery.
crumpled bill fold - what happened? Missed out on the Prozac? Or is the ADD overwhelming today.
Lets talk AIDS in a relevant Forum. Name time and place - or at least place.
This here is about abortion - an option your mother should have explored. Or did she - and are you the result??
Man, where have these people been coming from lately?
Man, where have these people been coming from lately?
If this is a private Forum, where like-minded comrades can exchange your own extremist ideas in conviviality without any dissent - then please state so in the banner. Us Homo sapiens with thinking minds will then not intrude into your den of insular thinking.
And also remember - education has expanded the horizons of folks all over the globe. We 3rd worlders can give as well as we get. Colonialism is a thing of the past.
Why no outrage against crumpled and well-worn bill fold??
Naradar isn't a pseudonym for Pitiricus is it?
Ultimately , it is a woman's decision - it is her body and her pain and her bonding and her anguish. Funny that a bunch of pederastic priests should moralize to women about it.
Apparently you don't believe in morality. Ultimately abortion is the killing of a human being.
At 12 weeks, the fetus' heart begins to beat and becomes a viable life.
During the first trimester, a fetus is nothing more than a bunch of growing cells and aborting is not murder.
Get over yourself.
And so is the starvation of African children while we Americans indulge in the excess.
Justify it as collateral damage - go light a candle, say a hail mary - I will break a coconut to my God called Ganesha.
Only when all the CURRENTLY EXISTING children in the world are properly fed clothed housed and educated should abortion even be an issue.
The antiabortionists have their priorities screwed up.
Titania,
So we shouldn't care about both. Seems silly to me that we would only concentrate on one issue or limit yourself to caring about only one thing. You can't generalize and say that people that care about the aborton issue also don't care about kids that are here. So should we not care about adults or other issues that face adults until all adults are fed clothed and housed ? See what I'm getting at ?
I see what you are getting at.
My question is, do the antiabortionists put as much energy into insuring that children all over the world are properly taken care of as they do arguing a pointless issue like abortion?
Have any of them done a stint with the Peace Corps?
Have any of them paid for a college education for any child other than their own?
Have they adopted unwanted orphans?
And, why is it not ok to have an abortion, but it is ok to bomb a womens clinic and kill viable lives, some of whom are actually pregnant and want to keep their babies?
Morality is a key component of the abortion issue. If you are for it you are immoral. Live with it or change your view.
According to medical science, abortion performed after the first trimester is indeed murder.
At 12 weeks, the fetus' heart begins to beat and becomes a viable life.
During the first trimester, a fetus is nothing more than a bunch of growing cells and aborting is not murder.
Get over yourself.
Actually I think that the heart begins beating before the 12th week and I think as early as the 6 the week. At conception there is a growing human being. That is a fact. You can call it a group of cells but then, also as a matter of fact, so are you. The issue is human intervention in that life. When an abortion occurs it is ending that life.
Now get over YOURSELF!!!
Have you adopted a child?
Hi T3 :),
To them and me it's not pointless to you it might be. They and I see it as killing a child. I am not an absolutist. If the mothers life is in danger or it was rape/incsest. As far as putting energy into the topic of abortion I'm sure that there are issues that you put your energy into that others would say, hey why don't you worry about that. Everyone has issues that they are passionate about, to say that you can only care about one issue at a time or that caring about one disqualifies an opinion seems wrong to me.
Hard to say, have you ? I mean you were the one who brought up starving kids. I personally haven't.
We do all the time through taxes that go to universities.
I'm sure some have.
I don't think anyone here thinks it's o.k that's the extreemist view. Frankly those people sicken me and should be prosecuted. They harm the cause more than help it. Same with people who blow up labs because they don't like animal testing, they hurt their cause more than help.
Luv2Fly 9/4/02 9:40am-
So we shouldn't care about both.
Noble but Utopian.
The priority should NOT be elimination of abortion.
As I initially postulated - the debate should be irrelevant in the West where alternatives abound.
I concur on your post on personal attacks. In my defence - because I am also guilty - I will defend myself in kind.
jethro bodine 9/4/02 9:50am
my personal faith instructs me that eating beef in not only immoral , but a sacrosanct violation of my creed. Most people in this country brazenly violate my beliefs. Should I collectively condemn their immorality and consign them to eternal damnation??
Naradar 9/4/02 10:00am
Naradar,
From now on if someone attacks you personally try to let it go, the person who did it will be dealt with. O.K. it's hard to walk away I understand, believe me. Discussion and disagreement are just fine and there's a line that can be crossed. It's hard when emotions get the best of us but turns the board into giant pissing matches. So to all concerned please refrain from them and everything will be hunky dory o.k ?
The priority should NOT be elimination of abortion.
The priority should BE the elimination of abortion.
my personal faith instructs me that eating beef in not only immoral , but a sacrosanct violation of my creed. Most people in this country brazenly violate my beliefs. Should I collectively condemn their immorality and consign them to eternal damnation??
Go right ahead if you feel strongly about it. However, don't see the relationship between killing unborn children and killing cows.
And I don't mean paying for education with taxes.
We all know that the chance of a homeless child going to college is slim at best.
I mean, taking a homeless child off the street and sending them to college.
Do the antiabortionists put their money where their mouths are?
Very few have adopted compared to the amount of antiabortionists there are.
I know a lot of adoptive parents, and none of them is against abortion. They know how many unwanted children there already are, and they know how expensive it is to adopt one. None of them see any reason to force the continuation of creating unwanted children.
The liberal slogan: KILL UNWANTED CHILDREN: they are just suffering anyway!!!
Do the antiabortionists put their money where their mouths are?
Do you know that they don't? Your comment is nothing but a broad baseless accusation.
T3,
That's great that you do all those things. I don't talk about what charitable things I do as a matter of principal. I will tell you that I do what I am able to do and leave it at that. You're looking to hold someone who is opposed to abortion to your standard of what you think they should do. That's a slippery slope because I'm sure their are areas or issues you care about that someone could ask the same questions of you. If someone doesn't adopt a child does not mean that their opinion is not valid on abortion. It would be like saying hey you're not in the armed forces and shouldn't have an opinion on going to war. Or hey your not a man so you shouldn't have a valid opinion on what men do. Now do you see what I'm getting at? I don't think you want ot go down that road. There are many issues that you might disqualify yourself from if you hold yourself to the same standard.