We all know how when and where. Now we just need to know who.
Is that the tell-tale heart of Mel Carnahan thumping under the floorboards?
Dennis Rahkonen
You passed along the info about the plane that went down carrying Paul Wellstone. Sorry to take so long to respond. I needed to do a little research.... I am not a pilot. I’ve been hiring pilots and small craft in my work for 30 years. In the time I’ve been in almost every kind of small craft made, from Piper Cubs and Cessna 172s (a bit scary) to Lears, King Airs and jet helicopters.
I’ll keep this short, but some details of this class of plane (Beechcraft A100) are worth noting. They have the best avionics in the business, as good, though smaller, than commercial airliners. They also usually have black boxes because of the “caliber” of customer they carry, i.e., the very rich. The A100 is not only one of the most reliable in the air, they are complicated enough to require extensive checkout before every flight and the maintenance is rigorous, not just for safety reasons but also because they cost as much as a mansion. This is not a plane that goes down in freezing rain.
Which leads to the next part. Visibility and conditions were not an issue in this accident. A pilot cannot fly this plane without an IFR (instrument) rating and thousands of hours of experience. IFR rating means the plane can be landed completely on instruments with no visibility at all—fog, freezing rain, driving snow, etc. Wellstone’s plane had two such pilots, which is unusual in itself. Not to say that weather not does sometimes present unworkable conditions—it does. But that’s where the pilot’s judgment comes in. Along with the 200 or so small craft I have flown in, I also got to know as many pilots, and they are not chance-takers, with the exception of some hotdog rich guys with their own planes (who account for the majority of real accidents)—that kind doesn’t get hired to fly important people anywhere. In fact they can’t fly for hire anyway because they would have to go through some additional rigorous training and most of them don’t.
On every flight I have chartered I have gone with the pilot(s) through the preflight checkout and asked a mess of technical questions. I tell them upfront I want a technical flight with all the explanation they can muster. My respect for both their skills and their good sense couldn’t be any greater. At rock bottom, they want to get home safely as much as I do and they just don’t take risks, especially when so many alternatives are available with IFR, even in remote places like northern Minnesota. They would have redirected right away if the weather looked like too much to handle, and they would have told their passengers that it was the only safe thing to do.
Two last small pieces—ice and freezing rain do not set planes on fire. The fact that they were clocked turning away from the chosen airstrip says that something else waved them off. The NTSB investigators (actual voices on the radio today) went to great lengths to emphasize that a “severe” fire had begun after impact. In fact, that’s about all they had to say, other than describing a crash perimeter that was preposterously small for serious investigation.
There was mention of witnesses who saw the plane on fire on the way down, but they were neither identified nor repeated later in the day. Plain and simple, based on my every experience with dedicated pilots and precision aircraft, planes like the A100 do not catch fire in spotty, wet weather and two experienced pilots are extremely unlikely to agree to fly under conditions they can’t control. They were not suicide bombers. This plane was destroyed intentionally from afar.
What happened to the initial reports that there was an observed fire on the aircraft while it was still in the sky? Subsequent newscasts made no further mention.
I never heard such reports. Who claimed this and when?
One gentleman with Washington connections says "everyone on the Hill" is convinced it WAS an assassination.
Of course no names are mentioned, just some "Washington Connection". It's mere rumor with no substance. The DEMs would be raising hell if they actually thought Wellstone was assasinated.
Did you know that Mozambique's Samora Machel was killed by apartheid South African operatives who planted a false radio beacon on the ground, overriding an airport beacon?
There are unconfirmed reports that Ted Kennedy was also to have been on the plane, but cancelled.
Kennedy was never expected to be on that plane. Wellstone and Kennedy were expected to have an appearance together in town, Kennedy was never expected to go to the unscheduled funeral out of town.
It's not totally out of question but I've not seen one ounce of circumstantial evidence, much less any valid proof.
All of this is just rumor mongering on the behalf of Wellstone supporters that just can't believe it was a accident.
Of course no names are mentioned, just some "Washington Connection".
Well, someone told someone, who told someone's brother, who passed it on to someone's spouse, who has a connection at LiberalSlant, who told Dennis to pass it on to us. What more proof do you need?
I personally heard the fire-sighting report while at work, on one of the Duluth radio stations.
I can't be sure which one, however, as our employees have about half a dozen radios tuned to their favorite stations, and you pick up bits of Bob and Tom, Jim Rome, local talk jocks, some truly annoying music, etc., as you walk about.
I'd like to get further clarification about that myself.
Last weekend, my wife went back to visit family. She heard people ask if the Republicans killed Paul Wellstone. It's come to that.
I don't think Republican leadership, Old Smoothyor anyone that the conspiracy nuts could think of, is competent enough to pull something like that off, even if they wanted to.
Remember the movie "Body Heat"? William Hurt wants to torch a building and kill a man. He goes to Micky Rourke the arsonist and lays out the plan. Rourke says:
"You do this, there's a hundred diifferent ways you can f$^k up. If you can think of 10 you're a genius.
Twenty days before he died, Paul Wellstone was in Duluth for the big Fair Trade rally.
As he was speaking, he pointed out a couple of guys who were filming him, saying they were "Republican cameramen".
He recognized them from their presence at prior engagements.
Some unionists (virtually everyone there was a unionist) escorted the duo off the premises.
They subsequently complained to the police that they were roughed up.
Afterward, they appeared on the local media, palpably dishonest in their exaggerated claims of damned near being savagely beaten.
I was there. It didn't happen. They were just "shown to the door", so to speak. (Granted, we can argue the civil liberties aspect of doing so, in a public park.)
Now, they were supposedly members of the Coleman apparatus, and the Democrats are said to employ similar spies.
But this pair gave off such a malicious vibe that my immediate reaction was that Wellstone was being zeroed-in on by some really bad dirty tricks.
I felt a definite air of foreboding.
Given that nothing is explicable about the crash, reading comments such as I've posted here, combined with what I and a lot of others simply "sense"...the illogic here would be to take an ironclad stance that it was just a bizarre accident.
What are the odds of two key liberals dying in similar aircrashes involving the same kind of plane, just days before two elections upon which so much hinged?
There's a greater likelihood of Kristin Kreuk walking in while I'm typing this and telling me she wants to leave Clark Kent for a real superman like me.
If it was an assassination, it wasn't pulled off by some county or state GOP functionaries, if by Republicans at all.
I can't prove it (nor can anyone else, I suppose), but I wouldn't be surprised if -- in a dark netherworld beyond Poindexter, North and Pearle, someplace where contacts of contacts of ex-CIA head George Bush the Elder play dominos with Osama's righthand man -- the real axis of evil resides.
Everybody enjoys conspiracy theories. They're parlor games, and should stay that way.
I have one, too.
Clinton hit the Chinese embassy in the former Yugoslavia on purpose, for the theft of nuclear secrets. Made noise like it was an accident, but sent a backchannel message to Beijing that it wasn't.
"Oh, sorry about that (wink, wink). We regret it deeply. We're just backcountry Arkansas boys. We kinda screw up once in awhile. We, uh....had a bad map."
I heard something rather startling about the Chinese recently.
They graduate more college students schooled in the hard sciences alone then we graduate in all academic disciplines taken together.
I suppose that's partly due to their huge population, but it's also because of a conscious intention to surpass the West via the route of scientific and technological achievement.
"One need not be a conspiracy theorist, or on the lunatic fringe to wonder at this 'accident', which so closely resembles that of Democrat Carnahan who had similar enemies, both flying in what has been rated the safest of aircraft, just before their election.
Yes you do need to be a conspiracy theorist or on the lunatic fringe to but into it before looking at facts.
Important people from both sides have died in plane crashes. Same with rock stars. Why does it seem so prevalant from politicians to rock stars dying in small planes ? Because it's news due to their status. People die in small plane crashes all the time and it usually recieves a small blip on the news. It's still safer than driving on 35w at 4:30 p.m on a friday. But odds increase of course the more you do it and rock stars and politicians and other important people fly all the time thus increasing their odds.
I fly in small planes all the time so I suppose my odds are increased too. But I'll still take my odds over driving on 35W. From pursuing this passion of mine I've learned that most accidents are pilot error. Running out of gas believe it or not being cheif among them. The margin of error is alot smaller the smaller the craft. I am personally extreme when it comes to caution. If the weather is even marginal I won't fly. Many of the accidents happen due to "get thereitis" or flying above ability ie; JFK Jr. He should have never been up in the air that night in a "hot" aircarft.
It's silly to even talk about it really but let's be realistic. If someone was going to "off" a Senator etc. Would he have been the first choice? He was in a very very tight race and very well might have lost. The sympathy vote would be huge. As his record shows he was a senator who was very often a lone voice on voting so he wasn't an obstructionist many times in fact sometimes voted against both D and R. So it wasn't like his vote was neccisarily a swing vote. He was also probably one of 3 or 4 most on the fringe which made for great examples for political opponents to use as talking points. Not to sound crude or crass but he was a bigger asset to the right alive.
So let's look at some facts that we know so far.
This was an unsceduled event and was last minute due to being a funeral he was enroute to.
Yes the Beech King Air 100 is a very safe plane with an excellent record. But they have and do crash like any aircraft for various reasons.
The conditions that day were ripe for icing which is most pilots worse fear due to becoming essentially a rock when your wings ice up. Icing iscaused by a buildup of ice on the leading edge of the wing which disturbs airflow and interupts or retards the lift that the wing produces. The King Air he was in was fitted with deicing equippment which is essentially a boot that goes over the leading edge and is filled usually with a liquid that runs down the "boot" and flexes the leading edge breaking up the ice. Was it working properly ? It's not known yet but conditions that day were ripe for it.
Visibility in the area at the time was horrid. The ILS (Instrument Landing System) beacon was off in calibration but not appearantly by much and the altitude portion seemed to be o.k. Other planes had used it that day and had and reported no problems. It was definate IFR conditions and was not the best weather to be flying in.
The witness I saw reported seeing the plane and thinking it was very low compared to usual.
He reported no fire and said the engines were running.
Here's a kicker. The medical examiner who I'm sure were paid off by right wing hit squads said there was no smoke or carbon monoxide in the lungs. So it can mean only one thing. They were killed by impact and there is zero evidence of a fire on board. The witness saw no fire, said the engines were running and the M.E said there was no carb mono in the blood. So there goes that theory I guess. He also said there was no gunshots etc in the pilots.
My theory, just from what I read they either had faulty instruments or the pilot misread them or didn't trust them which happens believe it or not, you think to yourself, that can't be right. So in short he thought he was higher than he was due to either a bad reading or error. The other option would be icing and deicing equipment being faulty. From the angle of attack and speed My first guess would be a bad reading on the altimeter. By the time he had ground in sight or realized it, his descent angle was too steep and he had too much speed to correct it. It happens very quick and again the conditions were poor with little margin for error.
It was a sad and tragic accident and nothing more. The really pathetic part is that people like Dennis, or Garrison Kellior etc. merely need to bring it up or hint at accusation, much easier to lay the seeds of a lie then it is to do otherwise. How sad. Oh by the way I think anyone who thinks it was a hit is a necropheliac and a satan worshiper, but I could be wrong, it's just that I've heard that from certain "connected" people that people who think that are those horrid things, not saying they are but it's possible and of course hard to disprove. ........See how easy that is.
you're a licensed pilot, right, rob? what's the turn-away point where you have to have visual contact with the runway or not make the landing even under ils rules? 500 feet? i'm not exactly familiar with the terrain up there but it does seem rather feasible that since he was actually 2 miles off course, that 500 foot visual mark put the plane in the trees.
Yes but not IFR rated. I'd have to have alot more time and money to do that, something I'll probably neve have unless I win the lottery.
Actually under IFR conditions shooting an ILS approach there's no minimum visual requirements. In fact in training you are required to t/o and land with your windshield blacked out with a liscenced instructor in the right seat. So it's possible to do so with zero visibility.
Depending on the conditions and the aircraft performance 500 feet is a blink. The King Air I'm guessing has an average landing/ stalling speed of 100 kts depending on conditions and load. So at 500 feet you're talking about mere seconds to react at that height and speed. I've never flown in one or seen a POH for one but it would be typical for an aircarft that caliber to land at 90 to 100 kts. So by the time he saw the ground it was probably too late. Throttle and flap posisition should help them figure that out. I believe I read that flaps and gear were extended. so it would tell me he knew he was close but as you pointed out was 2 miles off course. So I tend to think he had a faulty reading or read it wrong. Icing would be my second guess. But seeing as how hard it went in I think it was the latter.
i haven't turned on the sim since i bought my laptop in july. in large part because i haven't had a whole lot of time, in another large part because i haven't bought this babyyet and the laptop is missing a joystick port. i'm thinking its gonna be my christmas present to myself :) i'm using ms flight sim pro 2002.
The reason for killing Wellstone, above all others, would have been that he was an exemplar for the future.
An inspirational role model for those wishing to take politics out of plutocrats' hands, back to the common people.
The "icing" claim doesn't fly, no pun intended.
It's been confirmed, by folks at the Eveleth airport, that the weather wasn't actually that bad, and that other craft had landed there with no problem.
Today's news brings the first, real, credible reason for possibly turning away from the assassination prospect.
The pilot reportedly was moonlighting on another job, had worked a late shift the night before, and could have been fatigued enough to maybe nod off at the pivotal moment.
But this does not alter the fact that the Big Bopper was assassinated, along with Buddy Holly and Ritchie Valens, by insanely jealous... Little Boppers.
Read the reports. Those conditions were ripe for "icing" In fact they were textbook for icing. Icing can occur when it's as warm as 65 degrees on the ground. The conditions were perfect for it and there was icing NOTAM'S (notice to airmen) issued for the whole region.
It's been confirmed, by folks at the Eveleth airport, that the weather wasn't actually that bad, and that other craft had landed there with no problem.
See above. Other aircraft are going to be at lower levels especially if they were smaller, they don't fly as high as a King Air and at that airport it's mostly smaller planes departing and arriving like Cessna 152's 172's Pipers, Commanche's, Bonanza's etc. There was about 45 minutes of low visibility that occured during that time due to the ground air warming. I'm sure it was the evil republican weather machine that we used to hone in on his plane though.
As I said though my guess would be sad but simple pilot error. I have heard some far flung lefty sites were claiming the plane was shot at. So they planted a gunmen who knew the plane would be there exactly and knew it was going to be 2 miles off course, then the gunmen in the grassy knoll had to get a hit on a plane flying at treetop level traveling at 120 mph which gives you about a 1/2 second window to have your weapon ready to fire a shot and hit a moving target that they had to be sure was Wellstone's plane. Sure o.k. Stay home and watch the X-files.
The reason for killing Wellstone, above all others, would have been that he was an exemplar for the future.
He was a nutball that was more useful to the Republicans alive rather than dead.
An inspirational role model for those wishing to take politics out of plutocrats' hands, back to the common people.
Yeah, the common man that outspent that evil special interest pig, Norman Coleman. LOL
The "icing" claim doesn't fly, no pun intended.
It's been confirmed, by folks at the Eveleth airport, that the weather wasn't actually that bad, and that other craft had landed there with no problem.
It was bad enough. It's not out of the realm of possibility. Of course you will assume the worst though.
Today's news brings the first, real, credible reason for possibly turning away from the assassination prospect.
You're paranoid mind looked at this wrong all along. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Or is that subjective with you? You automatically level accusations without one ounce of proof. Not one ounce!
The pilot reportedly was moonlighting on another job, had worked a late shift the night before, and could have been fatigued enough to maybe nod off at the pivotal moment.
Wellstone worked him into the ground! A lot of good the "Man of the people" did for him, huh Dennis?
So they planted a gunmen who knew the plane would be there exactly and knew it was going to be 2 miles off course, then the gunmen in the grassy knoll had to get a hit on a plane flying at treetop level traveling at 120 mph which gives you about a 1/2 second window to have your weapon ready to fire a shot and hit a moving target that they had to be sure was Wellstone's plane
No Fly-toy--- this explanation belongs on the Vincent Foster thread--- because everyone knows that desperate COM-CONs are not capable of murder--- even when it means destroying---er---controlling the government. You're right--- absolutely--- No question about it. Only one thing bothers me--- Explain the actions of those Coleman supporters cheering in the streets just like the Palestinians did after 9/11. COM-CON trash.
Where were Coleman supporters cheering in the streets Duane ? Oh you have proof i'm sure since you never just throw blind accusations out right ? Ya' right, okey dokey Duane. Miss nap and cookie time did ya ?
Interesting tag-line here Fly-boy--- let's take a look at it shall we?
"The Jews have taken control of your lives making you servants"
Here is the most hackneyed phrase in the world--- I have always laughed at this. I can't even control my own life let alone someone else's. I can remember not long ago a right wing theory stating as such also--- something about a Bilderberg group and Hollywood and New World Orders--- but I digress. The point is--- there is no point to this statement--- and anyone who really knows this is not intimidated by it.
Osama Bin Laden 2002
OK, this is the source--- like anyone gives a shit what this right-wing shit-for-brains thinks and says---it's sort of like Oliver North or Richard Nixon (God rest his little soul) being spokesmen for Christians.
Brought to you by those tolerant Muslims extremists. And those who sympathize with him.
Again--- you paint the picture that Muslims are all violent, hateful, anti-anything-not-Muslim, gun-toting terrorists--- this is wrong, and racist--- the Muslims in my community are peaceful people and probably wish people like you with your thin-minded statements would stop and think about what it is you're saying rather than spout off everything that the state tells you to just so you can look like a team-player.
The point is--- there is no point to this statement--- and anyone who really knows this is not intimidated by it.
It's not meant by me to intimidate anyone it's Bin Laden's statement. How he meant it I don't know but it wasn't a love note. But you are correct it is pointless and hateful take it up with the author. I'd be happy to post the link for Binny's new letter that was translated Sunday if you like.
Osama Bin Laden 2002
OK, this is the source--- like anyone gives a shit what this right-wing shit-for-brains thinks and says---it's sort of like Oliver North or Richard Nixon (God rest his little soul) being spokesmen for Christians.
Yea, Bin Laden is a spokesman for the right, your so dishonest with even yourself that it must be hard to keep all your bullshit straight.
Brought to you by those tolerant Muslims extremists. And those who sympathize with him.
Again--- you paint the picture that Muslims are all violent, hateful, anti-anything-not-Muslim, gun-toting terrorists--- this is wrong, and racist--- the Muslims in my community are peaceful people and probably wish people like you with your thin-minded statements would stop and think about what it is you're saying rather than spout off everything that the state tells you to just so you can look like a team-player.
Bullshit, I said extremeists in the tag line, learn how to read. It's the extremists that fly planes into buildings that blow up ships, that burn nightclubs and kill 200 over a stupid beauty pageant in the name of Allah. they are highjacking a wonderful religion. But as in all things there is sadly hate, that's why I said extremists Duane. I posted his statement because that is full of hate, wether it's hate against Jews, Muslims or Christians it's evil. And it needs to be pointed out the motivation and mentality of the likes of Bin Laden. It's wrong no matter who does it and it should be duely pointed out. Anyone who makes statements like that and kills in the name of his god is wrong.
Funniest part of all Duane is that you just exposed yourself for the hypocrite you are. You claim that the morons Fallwell and Robertson Do represent conservatives. Well then does Bin Laden represent all Muslims ? No We both know that but you try to claim they do and then call someone a racist with zero fucking clue what your talking about as usual when you didn't bother to check the context of the post.
Having recently flown nothing but a Spiderman kite, I'll kindly ask you to employ your aviation expertise to help me out.
If you fly high enough, presumably icing can become a problem regardless of even relatively balmy temperature at ground level.
And, granted, the plane Wellstone was using is capable of altitudes greater than many, lesser craft.
But, by the time it was locked into approach, was it not at the same relatively low altitude that had succesfully been negotiated by several other planes that day?
I clearly remember a local aviation expert stating on TV that icing, or weather in any other sense, "shouldn't" have been a factor in the crash. Later that evening, a meteorologist went over the day's weather pattern at Eveleth through recorded time lapse...essentially confirming the same thing.
Weather, to this admitted layman, seems to not have been decisive. Duluth's conditions were pretty much the same that day -- gray, not terribly cold, with sprinklings of intermittent light snow, plus adequate visibility. Both the Duluth and Superior airports have remained operable under substantially worse skies and temps.
So...
The only plausible explanation to date is the "tired pilot" story.
But I really can't see the dude falling asleep. I mean, do it in a plane, and you're quickly dead. I would think pilots would cultivate some sort of adrenalin reflex, or something, to avoid that. Or take uppers. Plus, there was a co-pilot.
Is the co-pilot generally in a ready, immediate position to take over in such planes, on landing, if the pilot becomes disabled? Or is he lounging in back?
It appears possible to me, if this was an assassination, that the pilot might be a handy, posthumous "fall guy", again no pun intended.
Finally, I completely agree with J.T. There really isn't any evidence of anything regarding what actually happened.
I'm pursuing the assassination scenario because, after my Wellstone tribute appeared at Common Dreams, several people who e-mailed me in response expressed an immediate suspicion that Paul was murdered, and said they hoped an inquiry would be conducted, apart from the Bush government's agencies.
The Wellstone sons have initiated such an investigation, and I suspect others have as well.
Absent any definite answers, I simply respect the chance that, yes, it could have been foul play.
Instead of relying on your "experts" from radio, t.v. and 1500 miles away in D.C., go to the St. Louis County Medical Examiner's Office and obtain an official report.
Having recently flown nothing but a Spiderman kite, I'll kindly ask you to employ your aviation expertise to help me out.
I'm certainly no expert but I'll tell you what I know.
If you fly high enough, presumably icing can become a problem regardless of even relatively balmy temperature at ground level.
Yes it can, that's very true. It can be 70o Farenhight on the ground and you can still get icing at 20,000 feet.
And, granted, the plane Wellstone was using is capable of altitudes greater than many, lesser craft.
That's why it's possible the other planes didn't have problems icing might not have been occuring at those altitiudes.
But, by the time it was locked into approach, was it not at the same relatively low altitude that had succesfully been negotiated by several other planes that day?
If he would have stayed at the lower altitude like other planes cruise at and the other planes that had flown in the area ,yes. But that craft I'm sure was alot higher than the other planes in the area that day, and once the ice froms you can't melt it by simply flying at a lower altitude because by then the wings lift is compromised and you are pretty well screwed if it gets too far especially if the de-icing equipment isn't working. Smaller planes don't have it and avoid icing and like the plague and even warnigns of possible conditions keep smaller planes on terra firma, myself included.
Larger craft such as the Beechcraft King Air do have it. But it can malfunction too. A scenraio might be that He might have noticed by the aircrafts perfomance that he was icing up. He might have figured o.k no problem I'll hit the de-icing eqipment and no problem. So he keeps flying along figuring it's o.k until performance doesn't get better,in fact it gets worse, he tries it again. Now he's iced up more, he's losing altitude and has to keep adding power. It will snowball on you in a hurry and might have been to late by the time he realized the equipment wasn't working.
I clearly remember a local aviation expert stating on TV that icing, or weather in any other sense, "shouldn't" have been a factor in the crash. Later that evening, a meteorologist went over the day's weather pattern at Eveleth through recorded time lapse...essentially confirming the same thing.
I looked at NOAA about 2 hours after the crash, their were icing warnings that day it can be in the form of a NOTAM (notice to airmen). SIGMET Icing can be wierd and show up when you don't expect it. The weather people were I think referring to the actual weather which wasn't horrid but visibility was low in that area at the time, not horrid but low. It was definate IFR conditions. But icing can occur on a sunny day. The conditions were very good for icing I do know that.
Weather, to this admitted layman, seems to not have been decisive. Duluth's conditions were pretty much the same that day -- gray, not terribly cold, with sprinklings of intermittent light snow, plus adequate visibility. Both the Duluth and Superior airports have remained operable under substantially worse skies and temps. Â Â
Again if there was icing the larger planes would be fine if the equipment was working. A larger plane can fly in some mighty crappy conditions and the weather itself was not bad that day. but again it can be a beautiful day on the ground and icing can be nasty 15,000 feet above you.
The only plausible explanation to date is the "tired pilot" story.
But I really can't see the dude falling asleep. I mean, do it in a plane, and you're quickly dead. I would think pilots would cultivate some sort of adrenalin reflex, or something, to avoid that. Or take uppers. Plus, there was a co-pilot.
Beleive me you do get an adrenaline rush especially when landing. They do know that flaps were extended and their pretty sure gear is down. I have never gotten drowsy flying even on a long trip. Tried after definately becuase you come down from your adrenaline high. If he was having problems with Icing beleive me, he'd have been wide awake too. Icing is my second choice though. Pilot error is the cause in the majority of crashes.
Is the co-pilot generally in a ready, immediate position to take over in such planes, on landing, if the pilot becomes disabled? Or is he lounging in back?
No he or she are there for that exact reason, to be a second set of eyes. They do relax in regular flight but on approach he would have been very in tune to what the pilot was doing. If he noticed a problem with the pilot or noticed an error he should have said something. If the guy was tired he could have handed the controlls to the co-pilot. The co-pilot was not as seasoned as the pilot. The pilot had 5,000 hours which is a ton of hours and more than the average commuter pilot has, usually those guys use jobs like that so they can fly larger birds for bigger companies. The co-pilot I believe had only a couple hundred which is average at best, we still don't know who was at the stick when it went in.
It appears possible to me, if this was an assassination, that the pilot might be a handy, posthumous "fall guy", again no pun intended.
There was no sign of gunshots or anything else out of the ordinary, the Co2 levels indicated that the impact caused the crash so he would have had to have been drugged in which case it would have to be done at the exact time they were about to land so the co-pilot could take over. The blood levels etc were normal though. It was also a fairly last minute flight since it was for a funeral.
Finally, I completely agree with J.T. There really isn't any evidence of anything regarding what actually happened.
There isn't but even less to support an "assasination" theory. The St.Louis county coroner found nothing as far as substances or Co2 in the blood. They'll probably figure it out, it can take months to piece it back toghether but they are pretty darn good at it.
As I said Icing is still my second guess. I think it was either pilot error. It is the cause in most of the crashes. Or equipment failure is the reason.It's easy to blame a dead guy though because they aren't here to defend themselves. The news media has looked for dirt on this guy and I think it sucks. So what if he had a second job, most of these guys do. They only make about 14k a year. They do it as a springboard usually to better jobs once they have enough hours. He appeared to be happy doing what he did, I'd love to have a job like that. We also don't know who was at the stick at the time. It's very possible the co-pilot was in controll. From what I've read, gear and flaps were down indicating a landing approach. The engines were running. At the speed they were going by the time they realized the error it might have been too late to pull up. He probalby thought he was on the correct approach for final. The ILS might have been faulty or it could have been set wrong in the cockpit. It was off at the airport but not by enough where it should have made a difference. The altimeter might have been set wrong.
In summary there is alot of different pieces of equipment that can malfunction or be set wrong, there are alot of things that can go wrong with any aircraft and any pilot. It's a machine made and flown by humans so they aren't perfect. They go down all the time, I;ve had a few hair raisning experinces that you learn from. They'll find the cause eventually. The conspiracy theories give angry and sad people a way to vent. We all want to blame tragedies on something or someone. Why not a political opponenet as well ? The same theories surfaced after Mel Carnahan died and they were proven to be just wild innuendo. Some people never believe it because they want to use it politically or becuase they are conspiracy buffs and it gives them a purpose. Or they want to put a purpose or reason to something sensless that just happens. Either way it's sad and a tragedy that nobody can find any joy in.
Why is it that so many foreign cars are sporting American flags on them? What shit--- real patriots, real AMERICANS ---especially those concerned with JOB SECURITY --- would buy American. Or is it that AMERICANS FOR JOB SECURITY are only concerned with jobs for assassins?
"The Jews have taken control of your lives making you servants" Osama Bin Laden 2002 Brought to you by those tolerant Muslims extremists. And those who sympathize with him.
The point is--- there is no point to this statement--- and anyone who really knows this is not intimidated by it. It's not meant by me to intimidate anyone it's Bin Laden's statement. How he meant it I don't know but it wasn't a love note. But you are correct it is pointless and hateful take it up with the author. I'd be happy to post the link for Binny's new letter that was translated Sunday if you like.
I don't really give a damn what Bin Loser states--- he's just another right-wing ass-hole--- the internet is filled with them and I have no time for your propaganda--- the point is that you direct hatred toward one singled-out ethnic group of people in your tagline--- which is called RACISM. It's like saying all Christians or even all Germans are at fault because of Adolph Hitler's actions--- or that all white people are responsible for slavery---
Yea, Bin Laden is a spokesman for the right, your so dishonest with even yourself that it must be hard to keep all your bullshit straight.
it's evident that you're such a tool for the reich that you're seething with hatred and you're so far gone to even know it. When is the next Klan rally up there in the land of Nice? Got any 5 year-old black children singled out that you want to beat up?
Bullshit, I said extremeists in the tag line, learn how to read. It's the extremists that fly planes into buildings that blow up ships, that burn nightclubs and kill 200 over a stupid beauty pageant in the name of Allah. they are highjacking a wonderful religion. But as in all things there is sadly hate, that's why I said extremists Duane. I posted his statement because that is full of hate, wether it's hate against Jews, Muslims or Christians it's evil. And it needs to be pointed out the motivation and mentality of the likes of Bin Laden. It's wrong no matter who does it and it should be duely pointed out. Anyone who makes statements like that and kills in the name of his god is wrong.
You're a racist--- plain and simple--- listen to yourself--- If "it's wrong no matter who does it and should be [dually?] pointed out--- as you so frantically put it whilst backpedaling--- why then do you single out only Muslims in your hateful tagline? Why include the word at all--- except to convey your hatred? What a sad brain-washed case you are---If the government told you to hate your mother you probably would.
Funniest part of all Duane is that you just exposed yourself for the hypocrite you are. You claim that the morons Fallwell and Robertson Do represent conservatives. Well then does Bin Laden represent all Muslims ? No We both know that but you try to claim they do and then call someone a racist with zero fucking clue what your talking about as usual when you didn't bother to check the context of the post.
A sign that a racist is cornered--- they get belligerant, hysterical, and generally sloppy in their debate tactics--- then they start swearing, making spelling mistakes and grammatical errors--- maybe you and Andy can retreat to the shack and take your hatred and terror to the streets--- something you COM-CONs are naturally adept at.
Swiss experts have concluded that the most recent bin Laden tape -- which we were all assured by our government and media was authentic -- doesn't match the voice patterns on 20 other, definite bin Laden recordings.
Is it, then, perhaps a CIA or Mossad fabrication contrived to foment further anti-Islam sentiment?
Just shows how gullible some of us are when it comes to what we need to begin thinking of, from the onset, as possibly being blatant disinformation.
Keep that in mind about "accident" claims relating to Paul's plane crash.
Why is it that so many foreign cars are sporting American flags on them? What shit--- real patriots, real AMERICANS ---especially those concerned with JOB SECURITY --- would buy American. Or is it that AMERICANS FOR JOB SECURITY are only concerned with jobs for assassins?
You're kidding, right?
Fact is, most cars are assembled here whether it be "American" or "Japanese" or "German"......
90+% of their parts are manufactured elsewhere but assembled here. Good luck finding an "American" car these days.
A sign that a racist is cornered--- they get belligerant, hysterical, and generally sloppy in their debate tactics.
Well then I guess you're own words expose you once again since you have zero debating tactics and are belligerent constantly to anyone who disagrees with you. then again you blame victims of fires for living there so we expect nothing from you and our expectations are met over and over. Have a nice day Duane, ya' racist thug.
"The Jews have taken control of your lives making you servants" Adolph Hitler 1935 Brought to you by those tolerant White Christian extremists. And those who sympathize with him like Luv2Hate.
when you bring a bucket to fight a fire do you ever put water in it? Just curious.
Yes I would, you on the other hand of course would blame the victims of the fire for living there as they stood there watching their house burn just like you have on these very boards. Have a nice day racist.
"The Jews have taken control of your lives making you servants" Osama Bin Laden 2002 Brought to you by those tolerant Muslimsextremists. And those who sympathize with him.
CAIRO -- Shahir Zetain goes out of his way to seek out American visitors, often helping them cross the 10 lanes of unceasing traffic at Tahrir Square, near the Egyptian Museum where he works.
But he doesn't pass up opportunities to give them a piece of his mind, either. Zetain says he feels a deep rage over the United States' war against terror and its looming showdown with Iraq.
"Can you imagine what it's like," he said, sipping tea at a cafe, "to every day have to defend your culture and your religion? This is not right. . . . The world knows this."
Arabs in Egypt and the wider Middle East are growing ever more livid at U.S. policies they perceive as arrogant, duplicitous and religiously biased.
"Ever since the end of World War II Egyptians have had an image of the United States as fair players, as not longing for conquest," said Wahid Kazziha, a political science professor in Cairo for the past 30 years.
"But this has changed rather quickly," Kazziha added.
If you can rationally debate or discuss an idea, fine, let's go. If not you're irrelevant. As far as saying extremist Muslim's that's exactly what it is. A friend of mine converted to Islam about 6 years ago. I honestly didn't know alot about her religion and have had some great conversations with her about it. I think it's a great religion and has some wondeful points about it. It's not for me personally but anyone that wishes to do so or worship in that was is cool by me. I asked her how she felt about it and I read her that exact statement. She sees no problem with it and in fact says it's good to point out that it IS the extremists. She's frankly pissed off that her religion is being used by these assholes. That's why it's pointed out that it's the extremist element and those who sympathize with them. It's calling a spade a spade. That statement made by Bin Laden could have been made by any other hate group who also claimed to be Christian, Hindu, or any other belief when they were really just using it for their own means and bastardizing a religion an extremist is simply that, an extremist and it doesn't represent the views of the mainstream of that religion. Most RATIONAL people can tell the difference instead of inferring or assuming things.
You passed along the info about the plane that went down carrying Paul Wellstone. Sorry to take so long to respond. I needed to do a little research.... I am not a pilot. I’ve been hiring pilots and small craft in my work for 30 years. In the time I’ve been in almost every kind of small craft made, from Piper Cubs and Cessna 172s (a bit scary) to Lears, King Airs and jet helicopters.
I’ll keep this short, but some details of this class of plane (Beechcraft A100) are worth noting. They have the best avionics in the business, as good, though smaller, than commercial airliners. They also usually have black boxes because of the “caliber” of customer they carry, i.e., the very rich. The A100 is not only one of the most reliable in the air, they are complicated enough to require extensive checkout before every flight and the maintenance is rigorous, not just for safety reasons but also because they cost as much as a mansion. This is not a plane that goes down in freezing rain.
Which leads to the next part. Visibility and conditions were not an issue in this accident. A pilot cannot fly this plane without an IFR (instrument) rating and thousands of hours of experience. IFR rating means the plane can be landed completely on instruments with no visibility at all—fog, freezing rain, driving snow, etc. Wellstone’s plane had two such pilots, which is unusual in itself. Not to say that weather not does sometimes present unworkable conditions—it does. But that’s where the pilot’s judgment comes in. Along with the 200 or so small craft I have flown in, I also got to know as many pilots, and they are not chance-takers, with the exception of some hotdog rich guys with their own planes (who account for the majority of real accidents)—that kind doesn’t get hired to fly important people anywhere. In fact they can’t fly for hire anyway because they would have to go through some additional rigorous training and most of them don’t.
On every flight I have chartered I have gone with the pilot(s) through the preflight checkout and asked a mess of technical questions. I tell them upfront I want a technical flight with all the explanation they can muster. My respect for both their skills and their good sense couldn’t be any greater. At rock bottom, they want to get home safely as much as I do and they just don’t take risks, especially when so many alternatives are available with IFR, even in remote places like northern Minnesota. They would have redirected right away if the weather looked like too much to handle, and they would have told their passengers that it was the only safe thing to do.
Two last small pieces—ice and freezing rain do not set planes on fire. The fact that they were clocked turning away from the chosen airstrip says that something else waved them off. The NTSB investigators (actual voices on the radio today) went to great lengths to emphasize that a “severe” fire had begun after impact. In fact, that’s about all they had to say, other than describing a crash perimeter that was preposterously small for serious investigation.
There was mention of witnesses who saw the plane on fire on the way down, but they were neither identified nor repeated later in the day. Plain and simple, based on my every experience with dedicated pilots and precision aircraft, planes like the A100 do not catch fire in spotty, wet weather and two experienced pilots are extremely unlikely to agree to fly under conditions they can’t control. They were not suicide bombers. This plane was destroyed intentionally from afar.
RM
11 November 2002
My headwear notwithstanding, Dan, I'm not "claiming" anything.
I'm simply saying what everyone ought to be open to:
This was a mighty suspicious plane crash that could very well have been
an assassination.
If ever there was a case crying for independent inquiry, this is it.
What happened to the initial reports that there was an observed fire on the aircraft while it was still in the sky? Subsequent newscasts made no further mention.
I never heard such reports. Who claimed this and when?
One gentleman with Washington connections says "everyone on the Hill" is convinced it WAS an assassination.
Of course no names are mentioned, just some "Washington Connection". It's mere rumor with no substance. The DEMs would be raising hell if they actually thought Wellstone was assasinated.
Did you know that Mozambique's Samora Machel was killed by apartheid South African operatives who planted a false radio beacon on the ground, overriding an airport beacon?
There are unconfirmed reports that Ted Kennedy was also to have been on the plane, but cancelled.
Kennedy was never expected to be on that plane. Wellstone and Kennedy were expected to have an appearance together in town, Kennedy was never expected to go to the unscheduled funeral out of town.
It's not totally out of question but I've not seen one ounce of circumstantial evidence, much less any valid proof.
All of this is just rumor mongering on the behalf of Wellstone supporters that just can't believe it was a accident.
Of course no names are mentioned, just some "Washington Connection".
Well, someone told someone, who told someone's brother, who passed it on to someone's spouse, who has a connection at LiberalSlant, who told Dennis to pass it on to us. What more proof do you need?
Thanks, THX, for grudging acknowledgement of the possibility.
That's good enough for me.
Dan, get someone to drill holes in the concrete block you're encased in.
Otherwise your own farts will kill ya.
I personally heard the fire-sighting report while at work, on one of the Duluth radio stations.
I can't be sure which one, however, as our employees have about half a dozen radios tuned to their favorite stations, and you pick up bits of Bob and Tom, Jim Rome, local talk jocks, some truly annoying music, etc., as you walk about.
I'd like to get further clarification about that myself.
Was it an erroneous report?
Or was it subsequently quashed?
Thanks, THX, for grudging acknowledgement of the possibility.
Whatever gets you through the night, Dennis.
Or was it subsequently quashed?
By whom? You think the Democrats wouldn't be raising hell?
Last weekend, my wife went back to visit family. She heard people ask if the Republicans killed Paul Wellstone. It's come to that.
I don't think Republican leadership, Old Smoothyor anyone that the conspiracy nuts could think of, is competent enough to pull something like that off, even if they wanted to.
Remember the movie "Body Heat"? William Hurt wants to torch a building and kill a man. He goes to Micky Rourke the arsonist and lays out the plan. Rourke says:
"You do this, there's a hundred diifferent ways you can f$^k up. If you can think of 10 you're a genius.
"And you're no genius, counselor."
Twenty days before he died, Paul Wellstone was in Duluth for the big
Fair Trade rally.
As he was speaking, he pointed out a couple of guys who were filming him, saying they were "Republican cameramen".
He recognized them from their presence at prior engagements.
Some unionists (virtually everyone there was a unionist) escorted the duo off the premises.
They subsequently complained to the police that they were roughed up.
Afterward, they appeared on the local media, palpably dishonest in their exaggerated claims of damned near being savagely beaten.
I was there. It didn't happen. They were just "shown to the door",
so to speak. (Granted, we can argue the civil liberties aspect of doing so, in a public park.)
Now, they were supposedly members of the Coleman apparatus, and the
Democrats are said to employ similar spies.
But this pair gave off such a malicious vibe that my immediate reaction was that Wellstone was being zeroed-in on by some really
bad dirty tricks.
I felt a definite air of foreboding.
Given that nothing is explicable about the crash, reading
comments such as I've posted here, combined with what I and a lot
of others simply "sense"...the illogic here would be to take an ironclad stance that it was just a bizarre accident.
What are the odds of two key liberals dying in similar aircrashes involving the same kind of plane, just days before two elections upon which so much hinged?
There's a greater likelihood of Kristin Kreuk walking in while I'm typing this and telling me she wants to leave Clark Kent for a real
superman like me.
"Afterward, they appeared on the local media, palpably dishonest in their exaggerated claims of damned near being savagely beaten."
Diagram that sentence, Dennis. Do editors at LiberalSlant let that sort of thing get through?
" damned near being savagely beaten."
What the hell does that mean?
I tend to agree with Rick.
If it was an assassination, it wasn't pulled off by some county or state GOP functionaries, if by Republicans at all.
I can't prove it (nor can anyone else, I suppose), but I wouldn't be surprised if -- in a dark netherworld beyond Poindexter, North and Pearle, someplace where contacts of contacts of ex-CIA head George Bush the Elder play dominos with Osama's righthand man -- the real axis of evil resides.
Woo, woo...
Everybody enjoys conspiracy theories. They're parlor games, and should stay that way.
I have one, too.
Clinton hit the Chinese embassy in the former Yugoslavia on purpose, for the theft of nuclear secrets. Made noise like it was an accident, but sent a backchannel message to Beijing that it wasn't.
"Oh, sorry about that (wink, wink). We regret it deeply. We're just backcountry Arkansas boys. We kinda screw up once in awhile. We, uh....had a bad map."
I heard something rather startling about the Chinese recently.
They graduate more college students schooled in the hard sciences alone then we graduate in all academic disciplines taken together.
I suppose that's partly due to their huge population, but it's also
because of a conscious intention to surpass the West via the route of
scientific and technological achievement.
Anyway...
I'm going to sleep.
Enjoy your Times tomorrow.
Good night.
Yes you do need to be a conspiracy theorist or on the lunatic fringe to but into it before looking at facts.
Important people from both sides have died in plane crashes. Same with rock stars. Why does it seem so prevalant from politicians to rock stars dying in small planes ? Because it's news due to their status. People die in small plane crashes all the time and it usually recieves a small blip on the news. It's still safer than driving on 35w at 4:30 p.m on a friday. But odds increase of course the more you do it and rock stars and politicians and other important people fly all the time thus increasing their odds.
I fly in small planes all the time so I suppose my odds are increased too. But I'll still take my odds over driving on 35W. From pursuing this passion of mine I've learned that most accidents are pilot error. Running out of gas believe it or not being cheif among them. The margin of error is alot smaller the smaller the craft. I am personally extreme when it comes to caution. If the weather is even marginal I won't fly. Many of the accidents happen due to "get thereitis" or flying above ability ie; JFK Jr. He should have never been up in the air that night in a "hot" aircarft.
It's silly to even talk about it really but let's be realistic. If someone was going to "off" a Senator etc. Would he have been the first choice? He was in a very very tight race and very well might have lost. The sympathy vote would be huge. As his record shows he was a senator who was very often a lone voice on voting so he wasn't an obstructionist many times in fact sometimes voted against both D and R. So it wasn't like his vote was neccisarily a swing vote. He was also probably one of 3 or 4 most on the fringe which made for great examples for political opponents to use as talking points. Not to sound crude or crass but he was a bigger asset to the right alive.
So let's look at some facts that we know so far.
This was an unsceduled event and was last minute due to being a funeral he was enroute to.
Yes the Beech King Air 100 is a very safe plane with an excellent record. But they have and do crash like any aircraft for various reasons.
The conditions that day were ripe for icing which is most pilots worse fear due to becoming essentially a rock when your wings ice up. Icing iscaused by a buildup of ice on the leading edge of the wing which disturbs airflow and interupts or retards the lift that the wing produces. The King Air he was in was fitted with deicing equippment which is essentially a boot that goes over the leading edge and is filled usually with a liquid that runs down the "boot" and flexes the leading edge breaking up the ice. Was it working properly ? It's not known yet but conditions that day were ripe for it.
Visibility in the area at the time was horrid. The ILS (Instrument Landing System) beacon was off in calibration but not appearantly by much and the altitude portion seemed to be o.k. Other planes had used it that day and had and reported no problems. It was definate IFR conditions and was not the best weather to be flying in.
The witness I saw reported seeing the plane and thinking it was very low compared to usual.
He reported no fire and said the engines were running.
Here's a kicker.
The medical examiner who I'm sure were paid off by right wing hit squads said there was no smoke or carbon monoxide in the lungs. So it can mean only one thing. They were killed by impact and there is zero evidence of a fire on board. The witness saw no fire, said the engines were running and the M.E said there was no carb mono in the blood. So there goes that theory I guess. He also said there was no gunshots etc in the pilots.
My theory, just from what I read they either had faulty instruments or the pilot misread them or didn't trust them which happens believe it or not, you think to yourself, that can't be right. So in short he thought he was higher than he was due to either a bad reading or error. The other option would be icing and deicing equipment being faulty. From the angle of attack and speed My first guess would be a bad reading on the altimeter. By the time he had ground in sight or realized it, his descent angle was too steep and he had too much speed to correct it. It happens very quick and again the conditions were poor with little margin for error.
It was a sad and tragic accident and nothing more. The really pathetic part is that people like Dennis, or Garrison Kellior etc. merely need to bring it up or hint at accusation, much easier to lay the seeds of a lie then it is to do otherwise. How sad. Oh by the way I think anyone who thinks it was a hit is a necropheliac and a satan worshiper, but I could be wrong, it's just that I've heard that from certain "connected" people that people who think that are those horrid things, not saying they are but it's possible and of course hard to disprove. ........See how easy that is.
you're a licensed pilot, right, rob? what's the turn-away point where you have to have visual contact with the runway or not make the landing even under ils rules? 500 feet? i'm not exactly familiar with the terrain up there but it does seem rather feasible that since he was actually 2 miles off course, that 500 foot visual mark put the plane in the trees.
Yes but not IFR rated. I'd have to have alot more time and money to do that, something I'll probably neve have unless I win the lottery.
Actually under IFR conditions shooting an ILS approach there's no minimum visual requirements.
In fact in training you are required to t/o and land with your windshield blacked out with a liscenced instructor in the right seat. So it's possible to do so with zero visibility.
Depending on the conditions and the aircraft performance 500 feet is a blink. The King Air I'm guessing has an average landing/ stalling speed of 100 kts depending on conditions and load. So at 500 feet you're talking about mere seconds to react at that height and speed. I've never flown in one or seen a POH for one but it would be typical
for an aircarft that caliber to land at 90 to 100 kts. So by the time he saw the ground it was probably too late. Throttle and flap posisition should help them figure that out. I believe I read that flaps and gear were extended. so it would tell me he knew he was close but as you pointed out was 2 miles off course. So I tend to think he had a faulty reading or read it wrong. Icing would be my second guess. But seeing as how hard it went in I think it was the latter.
Ares,
BTW How goes the flight hours on sim ? Which sim are you using ?
i haven't turned on the sim since i bought my laptop in july. in large part because i haven't had a whole lot of time, in another large part because i haven't bought this babyyet and the laptop is missing a joystick port. i'm thinking its gonna be my christmas present to myself :) i'm using ms flight sim pro 2002.
Pretty cool. I wonder if we'd get discount if we bought two of them ? Hmmmmmmmm ? Merry Christmas to us :)
The reason for killing Wellstone, above all others, would have been that he was an exemplar for the future.
An inspirational role model for those wishing to take politics out of plutocrats' hands, back to the common people.
The "icing" claim doesn't fly, no pun intended.
It's been confirmed, by folks at the Eveleth airport, that the weather wasn't actually that bad, and that other craft had landed there with no problem.
Today's news brings the first, real, credible reason for
possibly turning away from the assassination prospect.
The pilot reportedly was moonlighting on another job, had worked a late shift the night before, and could have been fatigued enough to maybe nod off at the pivotal moment.
But this does not alter the fact that the Big Bopper was assassinated,
along with Buddy Holly and Ritchie Valens, by insanely jealous... Little Boppers.
Dennis,
Read the reports. Those conditions were ripe for "icing" In fact they were textbook for icing. Icing can occur when it's as warm as 65 degrees on the ground. The conditions were perfect for it and there was icing NOTAM'S (notice to airmen) issued for the whole region.
See above. Other aircraft are going to be at lower levels especially if they were smaller, they don't fly as high as a King Air and at that airport it's mostly smaller planes departing and arriving like Cessna 152's 172's Pipers, Commanche's, Bonanza's etc. There was about 45 minutes of low visibility that occured during that time due to the ground air warming. I'm sure it was the evil republican weather machine that we used to hone in on his plane though.
As I said though my guess would be sad but simple pilot error. I have heard some far flung lefty sites were claiming the plane was shot at. So they planted a gunmen who knew the plane would be there exactly and knew it was going to be 2 miles off course, then the gunmen in the grassy knoll had to get a hit on a plane flying at treetop level traveling at 120 mph which gives you about a 1/2 second window to have your weapon ready to fire a shot and hit a moving target that they had to be sure was Wellstone's plane. Sure o.k. Stay home and watch the X-files.
The reason for killing Wellstone, above all others, would have been that he was an exemplar for the future.
He was a nutball that was more useful to the Republicans alive rather than dead.
An inspirational role model for those wishing to take politics out of plutocrats' hands, back to the common people.
Yeah, the common man that outspent that evil special interest pig, Norman Coleman. LOL
The "icing" claim doesn't fly, no pun intended.
It's been confirmed, by folks at the Eveleth airport, that the weather wasn't actually that bad, and that other craft had landed there with no problem.
It was bad enough. It's not out of the realm of possibility. Of course you will assume the worst though.
Today's news brings the first, real, credible reason for possibly turning away from the assassination prospect.
You're paranoid mind looked at this wrong all along. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Or is that subjective with you? You automatically level accusations without one ounce of proof. Not one ounce!
The pilot reportedly was moonlighting on another job, had worked a late shift the night before, and could have been fatigued enough to maybe nod off at the pivotal moment.
Wellstone worked him into the ground! A lot of good the "Man of the people" did for him, huh Dennis?
No Fly-toy--- this explanation belongs on the Vincent Foster thread--- because everyone knows that desperate COM-CONs are not capable of murder--- even when it means destroying---er---controlling the government. You're right--- absolutely--- No question about it. Only one thing bothers me--- Explain the actions of those Coleman supporters cheering in the streets just like the Palestinians did after 9/11. COM-CON trash.
Where were Coleman supporters cheering in the streets Duane ? Oh you have proof i'm sure since you never just throw blind accusations out right ? Ya' right, okey dokey Duane. Miss nap and cookie time did ya ?
Interesting tag-line here Fly-boy--- let's take a look at it shall we?
Here is the most hackneyed phrase in the world--- I have always laughed at this. I can't even control my own life let alone someone else's. I can remember not long ago a right wing theory stating as such also--- something about a Bilderberg group and Hollywood and New World Orders--- but I digress. The point is--- there is no point to this statement--- and anyone who really knows this is not intimidated by it.
OK, this is the source--- like anyone gives a shit what this right-wing shit-for-brains thinks and says---it's sort of like Oliver North or Richard Nixon (God rest his little soul) being spokesmen for Christians.
Again--- you paint the picture that Muslims are all violent, hateful, anti-anything-not-Muslim, gun-toting terrorists--- this is wrong, and racist--- the Muslims in my community are peaceful people and probably wish people like you with your thin-minded statements would stop and think about what it is you're saying rather than spout off everything that the state tells you to just so you can look like a team-player.
Dingle Barry,
It's not meant by me to intimidate anyone it's Bin Laden's statement. How he meant it I don't know but it wasn't a love note. But you are correct it is pointless and hateful take it up with the author. I'd be happy to post the link for Binny's new letter that was translated Sunday if you like.
Yea, Bin Laden is a spokesman for the right, your so dishonest with even yourself that it must be hard to keep all your bullshit straight.
Brought to you by those tolerant Muslims extremists. And those who sympathize with him.
Bullshit, I said extremeists in the tag line, learn how to read. It's the extremists that fly planes into buildings that blow up ships, that burn nightclubs and kill 200 over a stupid beauty pageant in the name of Allah. they are highjacking a wonderful religion. But as in all things there is sadly hate, that's why I said extremists Duane. I posted his statement because that is full of hate, wether it's hate against Jews, Muslims or Christians it's evil. And it needs to be pointed out the motivation and mentality of the likes of Bin Laden. It's wrong no matter who does it and it should be duely pointed out. Anyone who makes statements like that and kills in the name of his god is wrong.
Funniest part of all Duane is that you just exposed yourself for the hypocrite you are. You claim that the morons Fallwell and Robertson Do represent conservatives. Well then does Bin Laden represent all Muslims ? No We both know that but you try to claim they do and then call someone a racist with zero fucking clue what your talking about as usual when you didn't bother to check the context of the post.
I'm starting to think Duane is just here to yank our chains.
Could be since he's never had one original thought or idea and is obviously incapable of debate.
"...worked him into the ground!"
That's hilarious, THX.
Good one.
You know, I didn't even think of it that way until you posted that.
Sorry, I was being a smart ass, but I didn't mean it like that.
I suspected it was inadvertent.
Rob,
Having recently flown nothing but a Spiderman kite, I'll kindly ask you to employ your aviation expertise to help me out.
If you fly high enough, presumably icing can become a problem regardless of even relatively balmy temperature at ground level.
And, granted, the plane Wellstone was using is capable of altitudes greater than many, lesser craft.
But, by the time it was locked into approach, was it not at the same relatively low altitude that had succesfully been negotiated by several other planes that day?
I clearly remember a local aviation expert stating on TV that icing, or weather in any other sense, "shouldn't" have been a factor in the crash. Later that evening, a meteorologist went over the day's weather pattern at Eveleth through recorded time lapse...essentially confirming the same thing.
Weather, to this admitted layman, seems to not have been decisive. Duluth's conditions were pretty much the same that day -- gray, not terribly cold, with sprinklings of intermittent light snow, plus adequate visibility. Both the Duluth and Superior airports
have remained operable under substantially worse skies and temps.
So...
The only plausible explanation to date is the "tired pilot" story.
But I really can't see the dude falling asleep. I mean, do it in a plane, and you're quickly dead. I would think pilots would cultivate some sort of adrenalin reflex, or something, to avoid that. Or take uppers. Plus, there was a co-pilot.
Is the co-pilot generally in a ready, immediate position to take over in such planes, on landing, if the pilot becomes disabled? Or is he lounging in back?
It appears possible to me, if this was an assassination, that the pilot might be a handy, posthumous "fall guy", again no pun intended.
Finally, I completely agree with J.T. There really isn't any evidence of anything regarding what actually happened.
I'm pursuing the assassination scenario because, after my Wellstone tribute appeared at Common Dreams, several people who e-mailed me in response expressed an immediate suspicion that Paul was murdered, and said they hoped an inquiry would be conducted, apart from the Bush government's agencies.
The Wellstone sons have initiated such an investigation, and I suspect others have as well.
Absent any definite answers, I simply respect the chance that, yes, it could have been foul play.
Dennis,
Instead of relying on your "experts" from radio, t.v. and 1500 miles away in D.C., go to the St. Louis County Medical Examiner's Office and obtain an official report.
Dennis,
I'm certainly no expert but I'll tell you what I know.
Yes it can, that's very true. It can be 70o Farenhight on the ground and you can still get icing at 20,000 feet.
That's why it's possible the other planes didn't have problems icing might not have been occuring at those altitiudes.
If he would have stayed at the lower altitude like other planes cruise at and the other planes that had flown in the area ,yes. But that craft I'm sure was alot higher than the other planes in the area that day, and once the ice froms you can't melt it by simply flying at a lower altitude because by then the wings lift is compromised and you are pretty well screwed if it gets too far especially if the de-icing equipment isn't working. Smaller planes don't have it and avoid icing and like the plague and even warnigns of possible conditions keep smaller planes on terra firma, myself included.
Larger craft such as the Beechcraft King Air do have it. But it can malfunction too. A scenraio might be that He might have noticed by the aircrafts perfomance that he was icing up. He might have figured o.k no problem I'll hit the de-icing eqipment and no problem. So he keeps flying along figuring it's o.k until performance doesn't get better,in fact it gets worse, he tries it again. Now he's iced up more, he's losing altitude and has to keep adding power. It will snowball on you in a hurry and might have been to late by the time he realized the equipment wasn't working.
I looked at NOAA about 2 hours after the crash, their were icing warnings that day it can be in the form of a NOTAM (notice to airmen). SIGMET Icing can be wierd and show up when you don't expect it. The weather people were I think referring to the actual weather which wasn't horrid but visibility was low in that area at the time, not horrid but low. It was definate IFR conditions. But icing can occur on a sunny day. The conditions were very good for icing I do know that.
Again if there was icing the larger planes would be fine if the equipment was working. A larger plane can fly in some mighty crappy conditions and the weather itself was not bad that day. but again it can be a beautiful day on the ground and icing can be nasty 15,000 feet above you.
Sorry for long post, continued on next.
Continued from above.
Beleive me you do get an adrenaline rush especially when landing. They do know that flaps were extended and their pretty sure gear is down. I have never gotten drowsy flying even on a long trip. Tried after definately becuase you come down from your adrenaline high. If he was having problems with Icing beleive me, he'd have been wide awake too. Icing is my second choice though. Pilot error is the cause in the majority of crashes.
No he or she are there for that exact reason, to be a second set of eyes. They do relax in regular flight but on approach he would have been very in tune to what the pilot was doing. If he noticed a problem with the pilot or noticed an error he should have said something. If the guy was tired he could have handed the controlls to the co-pilot. The co-pilot was not as seasoned as the pilot. The pilot had 5,000 hours which is a ton of hours and more than the average commuter pilot has, usually those guys use jobs like that so they can fly larger birds for bigger companies. The co-pilot I believe had only a couple hundred which is average at best, we still don't know who was at the stick when it went in.
There was no sign of gunshots or anything else out of the ordinary, the Co2 levels indicated that the impact caused the crash so he would have had to have been drugged in which case it would have to be done at the exact time they were about to land so the co-pilot could take over. The blood levels etc were normal though. It was also a fairly last minute flight since it was for a funeral.
There isn't but even less to support an "assasination" theory. The St.Louis county coroner found nothing as far as substances or Co2 in the blood. They'll probably figure it out, it can take months to piece it back toghether but they are pretty darn good at it.
As I said Icing is still my second guess. I think it was either pilot error. It is the cause in most of the crashes. Or equipment failure is the reason.It's easy to blame a dead guy though because they aren't here to defend themselves. The news media has looked for dirt on this guy and I think it sucks. So what if he had a second job, most of these guys do. They only make about 14k a year. They do it as a springboard usually to better jobs once they have enough hours. He appeared to be happy doing what he did, I'd love to have a job like that. We also don't know who was at the stick at the time. It's very possible the co-pilot was in controll. From what I've read, gear and flaps were down indicating a landing approach. The engines were running. At the speed they were going by the time they realized the error it might have been too late to pull up. He probalby thought he was on the correct approach for final. The ILS might have been faulty or it could have been set wrong in the cockpit. It was off at the airport but not by enough where it should have made a difference. The altimeter might have been set wrong.
In summary there is alot of different pieces of equipment that can malfunction or be set wrong, there are alot of things that can go wrong with any aircraft and any pilot. It's a machine made and flown by humans so they aren't perfect. They go down all the time, I;ve had a few hair raisning experinces that you learn from. They'll find the cause eventually. The conspiracy theories give angry and sad people a way to vent. We all want to blame tragedies on something or someone. Why not a political opponenet as well ? The same theories surfaced after Mel Carnahan died and they were proven to be just wild innuendo. Some people never believe it because they want to use it politically or becuase they are conspiracy buffs and it gives them a purpose. Or they want to put a purpose or reason to something sensless that just happens. Either way it's sad and a tragedy that nobody can find any joy in.
Thank you for your time, Rob.
Informative, and appreciated.
So Dennis,
Are you going to obtain report from the M.E.?
Why is it that so many foreign cars are sporting American flags on them? What shit--- real patriots, real AMERICANS ---especially those concerned with JOB SECURITY --- would buy American. Or is it that AMERICANS FOR JOB SECURITY are only concerned with jobs for assassins?
"The Jews have taken control of your lives making you servants" Osama Bin Laden 2002 Brought to you by those tolerant Muslims extremists. And those who sympathize with him.
I don't really give a damn what Bin Loser states--- he's just another right-wing ass-hole--- the internet is filled with them and I have no time for your propaganda--- the point is that you direct hatred toward one singled-out ethnic group of people in your tagline--- which is called RACISM. It's like saying all Christians or even all Germans are at fault because of Adolph Hitler's actions--- or that all white people are responsible for slavery---
it's evident that you're such a tool for the reich that you're seething with hatred and you're so far gone to even know it. When is the next Klan rally up there in the land of Nice? Got any 5 year-old black children singled out that you want to beat up?
You're a racist--- plain and simple--- listen to yourself--- If "it's wrong no matter who does it and should be [dually?] pointed out--- as you so frantically put it whilst backpedaling--- why then do you single out only Muslims in your hateful tagline? Why include the word at all--- except to convey your hatred? What a sad brain-washed case you are---If the government told you to hate your mother you probably would.
A sign that a racist is cornered--- they get belligerant, hysterical, and generally sloppy in their debate tactics--- then they start swearing, making spelling mistakes and grammatical errors--- maybe you and Andy can retreat to the shack and take your hatred and terror to the streets--- something you COM-CONs are naturally adept at.
Swiss experts have concluded that the most recent
bin Laden tape -- which we were all assured by our government and
media was authentic -- doesn't match the voice patterns on 20
other, definite bin Laden recordings.
Is it, then, perhaps a CIA or Mossad fabrication contrived to foment further anti-Islam sentiment?
Just shows how gullible some of us are when it comes to what we need
to begin thinking of, from the onset, as possibly being blatant disinformation.
Keep that in mind about "accident" claims relating to Paul's
plane crash.
Read your own words, Dennis:
<
<Is it, then, perhaps a CIA or Mossad fabrication contrived to foment further anti-Islam sentiment?
Just shows how gullible some of us are...>>
Why is it that so many foreign cars are sporting American flags on them? What shit--- real patriots, real AMERICANS ---especially those concerned with JOB SECURITY --- would buy American. Or is it that AMERICANS FOR JOB SECURITY are only concerned with jobs for assassins?
You're kidding, right?
Fact is, most cars are assembled here whether it be "American" or "Japanese" or "German"......
90+% of their parts are manufactured elsewhere but assembled here. Good luck finding an "American" car these days.
Well then I guess you're own words expose you once again since you have zero debating tactics and are belligerent constantly to anyone who disagrees with you. then again you blame victims of fires for living there so we expect nothing from you and our expectations are met over and over. Have a nice day Duane, ya' racist thug.
"The Jews have taken control of your lives making you servants" Adolph Hitler 1935 Brought to you by those tolerant White Christian extremists. And those who sympathize with him like Luv2Hate.
There, that's much better.
Have a nice day Duane. You hateful racist.
Luv2Hate--- when you bring a bucket to fight a fire do you ever put water in it? Just curious.
Yes I would, you on the other hand of course would blame the victims of the fire for living there as they stood there watching their house burn just like you have on these very boards. Have a nice day racist.
CAIRO -- Shahir Zetain goes out of his way to seek out American visitors, often helping them cross the 10 lanes of unceasing traffic at Tahrir Square, near the Egyptian Museum where he works.
But he doesn't pass up opportunities to give them a piece of his mind, either. Zetain says he feels a deep rage over the United States' war against terror and its looming showdown with Iraq.
"Can you imagine what it's like," he said, sipping tea at a cafe, "to every day have to defend your culture and your religion? This is not right. . . . The world knows this."
Arabs in Egypt and the wider Middle East are growing ever more livid at U.S. policies they perceive as arrogant, duplicitous and religiously biased.
"Ever since the end of World War II Egyptians have had an image of the United States as fair players, as not longing for conquest," said Wahid Kazziha, a political science professor in Cairo for the past 30 years.
"But this has changed rather quickly," Kazziha added.
"We're now seeing a culture of aggressiveness that is taking a religious turn, with Islam as the target."
Luv2Cry--- It isn't necessary to add an 's' to Muslim in your hate-slogan--- it only makes you look even more ignorant than you already appear to be.
Duane,
If you can rationally debate or discuss an idea, fine, let's go. If not you're irrelevant. As far as saying extremist Muslim's that's exactly what it is. A friend of mine converted to Islam about 6 years ago. I honestly didn't know alot about her religion and have had some great conversations with her about it. I think it's a great religion and has some wondeful points about it. It's not for me personally but anyone that wishes to do so or worship in that was is cool by me. I asked her how she felt about it and I read her that exact statement. She sees no problem with it and in fact says it's good to point out that it IS the extremists. She's frankly pissed off that her religion is being used by these assholes. That's why it's pointed out that it's the extremist element and those who sympathize with them. It's calling a spade a spade. That statement made by Bin Laden could have been made by any other hate group who also claimed to be Christian, Hindu, or any other belief when they were really just using it for their own means and bastardizing a religion an extremist is simply that, an extremist and it doesn't represent the views of the mainstream of that religion. Most RATIONAL people can tell the difference instead of inferring or assuming things.