I believe in ecumenism and tolerance, a celebration of diversity, and strict avoidance of the arrogant folly which sees one religion as the Only True Way and all others as irrelevant at best, and Satanic at worst. Â Â
I agree wholehertedly. It's one of the things I love about this country. It's that you and I may worship or not worship as we see fit. We've been able to do so without the large scale problems that so many countries face internally ie: the Hindu, Muslim battle in India etc. But you also perhaps point out the biggest problem in the current world situation. And that is that the numerous fundemental religious groups especially the extremist Muslims are taking over and becoming the mainstream in many countries. They preach hate at an early age in many cases.
What you fail to see is their own version of hatred. When I see a 7 year old being taught that Jews and Westerners are all infidels and defile the ground the "believers" walk on it reminds me of a guy in 38'. In many cases it has nothing more to do about politics or policy than it does raw hatred and a religion highjacked by extremists. I don't recall hearing the masses call for death to all Muslims. I have however heard the opposite from the nutjobs spreading there hate. Thier hate is more intense and raw than any other idea or reason you could ever cook up. It's not about beauty pageants.
Well inspectors are back which is a good thing I guess. Does anyone really think they'll find anything ?
I have my doubts, for one they have had 3-4 months knowing this was coming to hide everything. To me it would be like calling a drug lord and saying we'll you're a naughty drug lord. Do you have any drugs to declare ? What do we expect them to say? They've had time to hide everything. Can you imagine calling the same drug lord and saying....." Um hey we know it's only August but we'd like to search your place for drugs, how does the 20th of November sound, great that works for us too, See you then. Now make sure you have all your drugs on the kitchen table when we come through. Oh, what's that, we can't look in your temple, err I mean closets, well o.k. see you the 20th."
I don't expect them to cooperate or for 20 or so people to find anything in a nation bigger than California with a govt. that is good at delaying and had months to hide things. Then I'm sure many will say, see we told you they didn't have anything. Sure, O.K, well as long as we all feel better politically about it right ?
Contemporary Western imperialism rapaciously carried out in the Third World by capitalist/Christian powers.
Zionism's U.S.-abetted, surpassingly repressive thwarting of Palestinian nationhood.
Bush's "the Iraqis are coming" lie to launch an aggressive war against a major Islamic nation, for oil, to be subsequently followed by a similar move on Iran.
Conservatives totally ignore this crucial historical context.
Furthermore, they themselves have "hijacked" Christianity and forced it into a rigid, intolerant fundamentalism which haughtily sees their faith as superior to all others.
It goes without saying that infinitely more innocent blood has been spilled over time by armies and empires professing to act in behalf of Jesus than any other.
But it would be wrong to consequently conclude that Christianity is "bad" and "wrong" per se -- which is what I clearly see happening in rightwing polemics leveled at Islam.
Just as Christianity has denominations, tendencies, groups working gently and progressively in the secular realm, and a righteous tenor in Christ's core teachings (contrasted with subsequent distortions and impostions by lesser souls, the Apostle Paul, for one)...so, too, has Islam.
Criticize the terrorists.
But don't bash the entire religion, or all Arabic peoples.
Doing so would be a thinly different variant of Hitler's scapegoating of Jews.
And the precursor, in the deteriorating U.S. civil rights environment, of putting Arab Americans and Muslims in general in concentration camps, as was done with Japanese Americans during WWII.
Finally, honestly examine the ongoing, selfishly-motivated misdeeds of our own policies that are justifiably so infuriating to peoples around the planet who have different outlooks and values.
As for the Nigerian situation, the true circumstance still totally eludes the Right.
Here's a good assessment of what happened -- and what's at stake -- by writer Ros Coward, from the Guardian/UK:
The riots in Nigeria were ultimately triggered, not by the contest itself but by a piece in a local paper claiming the prophet himself might have chosen a wife from these beauties. The Nigeria debacle shows how naive people are about this divide between cultures, especially in a post- September 11 world. A culture where a woman can be stoned to death for adultery clearly contains elements that will not be entranced by a parade of female flesh or the "modernity" it promises. To hold the contest during Ramadan compounds the insult.
This is the same cultural naivety exposed by the bombing of the Sari club in Bali. The consolation some clubbers exchanged after the outrage betrays this same sense that the world is a playground where the true human (western) values can be paraded. Because no harm is meant, no offence should be taken. One clubber mourned the passing of the club on a website, saying "it was the United Nations of decadence" without any sense that this is what made it a target.
This new era of Muslim fundamentalism has changed the world but few in the west seem to realize this. Before September 11, casual imperialism caused offence when the west paraded its interests and values as self-evidently desirable. Now the reluctance to attack representatives of western values has disappeared even among those with no involvement in extremist organizations. Those rioting on the streets of Kaduna were not members of al-Qaida but they had no hesitation in attacking what they see as western values.
In such a world we should think carefully about what values we want to parade. Democracy, equality and tolerance certainly. But a beauty contest?
As for the Nigerian situation, the true circumstance still totally eludes the Right. Â Â
No even most on the left get it too, notice I said most. But you got it figured out eh Dennis.
From the bile in the Guardian.
The riots in Nigeria were ultimately triggered, not by the contest itself but by a piece in a local paper claiming the prophet himself might have chosen a wife from these beauties. The Nigeria debacle shows how naive people are about this divide between cultures, especially in a post- September 11 world. A culture where a woman can be stoned to death for adultery clearly contains elements that will not be entranced by a parade of female flesh or the "modernity" it promises. To hold the contest during Ramadan compounds the insult.
Ok so they were insulted, so we or the west is naieve about there culture. So the culture that would stone a woman to death for adultery is offended, how terrible for the people who organized the contest to hold it there. A forepaugh yes but how silly that we try not to offend those who would stone a woman to death, how insensitive of us. I mean any cultural boo boo should be met by such measures, what did you silly westerners expect.
This is the same cultural naivety exposed by the bombing of the Sari club in Bali. The consolation some clubbers exchanged after the outrage betrays this same sense that the world is a playground where the true human (western) values can be paraded. Because no harm is meant, no offence should be taken. One clubber mourned the passing of the club on a website, saying "it was the United Nations of decadence" without any sense that this is what made it a target.
So that makes it o.k.
This new era of Muslim fundamentalism has changed the world but few in the west seem to realize this. Before September 11, casual imperialism caused offence when the west paraded its interests and values as self-evidently desirable. Now the reluctance to attack representatives of western values has disappeared even among those with no involvement in extremist organizations. Those rioting on the streets of Kaduna were not members of al-Qaida but they had no hesitation in attacking what they see as western values.
I noticed this statement.
Now the reluctance to attack representatives of western values has disappeared even among those with no involvement in extremist organizations.
So they are saying now even non-extremist elements have no problem attacking western targets. Well so much for the "it's just the extremist element" crowd. Looks like it's many not a few.
I haven't seen that much dung in print since the last edition of liberalslant.com In that drivel from the Guardian not once you'll note did it condem the attacks. So to them it's o.k since they committed the ultimate sin of not being sensative to a culture. So from now on according to the Dennis and others we should all simply expect to be killed by even mainstream muslims if we make a cultural boo boo or offend someone or dare show that you are from the evil west.
But let's rationalize with people that would stone a woman to death for kissing the neighbor, let's make sure we bend over backwards to appease them and those that blow up nightclubs and skyscrapers.
This is the exact b.s that keeps morons like this in a minority because reasonable folks understand that it's not o.k to riot and kill hundreds because you held a stupid beauty contest. Go ahead, backtrack or defend it. It's telling of how sick some people are and the level of hatred by people who sit on there perch and tirelessly tell others how evil they are. They would apologize for any level of violence as long as it's anti western. It's sick and hateful but then again so are they.
The one thing that's at least perhaps a blessing is that they at least are sparing us from what we already knew. As is obvious they don't go out of the way to condem the death of innocent people from the west. At least it spares us the disingenuous drivel about how they care. They don't except for the ones perpatrating the attack since they find sympathy with there cause. It's the same thing they have accused others of for years but there's solid evidence they do the same. They don't care about those who died on 9-11 or in Bali or in the riots or anywhere else if they were western I mean what did we expect ?. At least now they have spared us from the lip service. But how sad and pathetic on there part. It makes any message they might have moot.
Still missing the boat like a car going splat as it tries to jump the ferry, eh, Rob?
It is UNDERSTOOD that the rioting, with all of the terrible violence that took place, is wrong.
It is UNDERSTOOD that Islamic fundamentalism, with all of its sexist and other reactionary, archaic bigotry is a retrograde thing -- mirroring hidebound Christian fundamentalism.
It is UNDERSTOOD that the Bali nightclub attack was an inexcusable outrage.
The simple point we are trying to make is that, when the West incessantly conducts relations with developing countries that invariably involve not HELPING them but helping ourselves to their wealth (plus saddling them with our thoroughly depraved culture), the popular animosity that results can and does get out of hand.
Especially when some hugely stupid insensitivity or insult is thoughtlessly interjected into the volatile mix.
And it also plays directly INTO the hands of the very worst elements out there.
The gangster-terrorists.
You remember them, don't you, Rob?
The guys who, in a number of countries and previous situations, were our former allies in the Cold War.
We turned a blind eye to their opium trading and recruited them to launch shoulder-fired Stingers at Russian helicopters.
Gee, I wonder where they learned their mayhem proficiency!
I also wonder about exactly what sort of betrayal was involved, by whom, that made these reptilian friends of ours a deacde ago...our brutal nemesis today.
What you don't UNDERSTAND is that a proper America would never associate with such thugs in the first place.
And that our policy has to be altered from abject self-absorption and exploitation to one of fairness and mutual respect for foreign peoples, thereby obviating the appeal of the likes of Osama.
Let's win friends for the USA via an enlighted outlook and just conduct, so that the whole world isn't consumed by violence that bin Laden can manipulate -- with Bush's foolhardiness -- so that WE become the worst enemy in international eyes.
Let's win friends for the USA via an enlighted outlook and just conduct, so that the whole world isn't consumed by violence that bin Laden can manipulate -- with Bush's foolhardiness -- so that WE become the worst enemy in international eyes.
Screw that noise.
I say we find Bin Laden's family, and kill them all.
Find Atta's family, and kill them all.
Find the families of each and every highjacker on those planes, and kill them all.
According to your logic, they've given us reason to act like suicidal maniacs. They gave us reason, didn't they? We can manipulate that, can't we? There's no mutual respect in this situation, is there? There's no enlightenment on their part, is there? They are currently the worst enemy in our eyes, aren't they? I mean, a proper America would never associate with thugs like them, would we? So we should just kill them all, shouldn't we?
It is UNDERSTOOD that the rioting, with all of the terrible violence that took place, is wrong.
For one not only did you nor the article denounce it in the last post but it's NOT UNDERSTOOD Dennis, you're the by any means nessecary guy so no it's not understood, in fact the only thing that is understood by rational people is that there are those who legitimize and give creedence to what these people do and even bother to post such drivel about why a nightclub and a beauty pageant were such friggen injustices and insensative to these people that you would plead for no western influence and then turn aroiund and scream at us for being intolerant. Yea, there the models of friggin tolerance, it's all our fault.
The simple point we are trying to make is that, when the West incessantly conducts relations with developing countries that invariably involve not HELPING them but helping ourselves to their wealth (plus saddling them with our thoroughly depraved culture), the popular animosity that results can and does get out of hand.
It was voluntary. The nightclub in Bali and the beauty pageant weren't there because the UN went in at gunpoint and said hey you guys gotta have a beauty pageant and a bar damint !
Especially when some hugely stupid insensitivity or insult is thoughtlessly interjected into the volatile mix.
And it also plays directly INTO the hands of the very worst elements out there. Â Â
So much for tolerance eh ? So instead let's worry about offending those who would do so.
And it also plays directly INTO the hands of the very worst elements out there. Â Â
The gangster-terrorists.
You remember them, don't you, Rob?
Yea, they attacked our country on 9-11 do you remember that ? I wonder sometimes, go take a look at Binny's new letter.
The guys who, in a number of countries and previous situations, were our former allies in the Cold War.
Yea and we helped them, regardless of motivation we helped them and look what we got in return. Had they gone in and wiped out half their people and took over I'm sure you'd have been ranting about how we didn't help. I guess you can't win with people like you. You're looking for evil but looking in the wrong place sometimes.
The riots in Nigeria were ultimately triggered, not by the contest itself but by a piece in a local paper claiming the prophet himself might have chosen a wife from these beauties.
Only fools throw gasoline on fire and then wonder why they got burned.
Whether it's Bush's government, the military, or profit-seeking commercial/financial interests, "our" policy is like Daffy Duck playing with matches in its self-defeating outcome.
Meanwhile, democracy gets driven into the swampy woods outside Duluth...
CHENEY OWES DULUTH PROTESTERS AN APOLOGY
Within the past week I have read two point of view columns concerning what happened to the peace protesters who tried to display signs when Vice President Dick Cheney spoke at the Hermantown School.
I was absolutely stunned to find they had been herded, like cattle, to a fenced-off area far behind the school and threatened with arrest if they did not obey the police. Orders, no doubt, handed down by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
In the past, I have peacefully protested the Vietnam War and the Des Moines ship. We were just a small group of little old ladies in tennis shoes, a few veterans, some church groups and college kids.
We certainly weren't dangerous. We carried no weapons, just some homemade cardboard signs.
When James Madison drew up the Bill of Rights, which came into effect on Dec. 15, 1791, it was to ensure that citizens were to be born with certain rights the government cannot take away from them. The First Amendment calls for the right of the people to peacefully assemble and to address the government for a redress of grievances.
So tell me, if Madison, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Monroe, Benjamin Franklin, Patrick Henry and George Washington had been standing amongt that group of Grandmothers for Peace and Loaves and Fishes Catholic Workers, do you think they too would have been herded away and threatened with arrest?
I think Cheney and the FBI owe that group of people an abject apology. Frankly, the people should sue them! Many years ago there was a young man from Galilee who led a group of rag-tag protesters. He went around preaching about love and mercy saying, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." They crucified him.
Big difference between trying to get people to elect you based on your beliefs rather than scaring them into giving into you. Muslims prefer strapping bombs around the young people and blowing up crowds if they do not convert.
I see--- so intimidation, intolerance and racism is the right way to win votes. That's COMpassionate-CONservatism right there in a NUTshell---Read Robertson's platform Don--- it pretty much states that he will stop at nothing for his earthly power. And also, Don--- if you support the COM-CONs then you support Robertson and his kind too--- since he and his organizations--- legit or not--- are some of the chief finacial supporters of the GOP. Think about that while you pray. You DO pray, don't you Don?
Don't forget conversions to Islam and death to the Jew. Ya Silly friggin infidel.
Do all Muslims support death to Jews? Where do you get these crazy ideas Fly-boy---talk radio? You see goof-ball, when an idea is repeated over and over enough, people begin to accept it as truth--- ever hear the phrase "he who fucks nuns will later join the church"? What this means is that when you expose yourself to extremist ideology for too long a period you too begin to be one.
No Duane, you're full of enough hate for everyone. But if you learned how to read and followed the thread you'd know I was talking about the extremist sects of course that would require knowing what you were talking about first before you typed away.
Speaking of hate have you blamed any disaster victims for living there lately ?
That's really nice and I'm sure quite offensive to Catholics, Hmmm someone was just talking about intolerance, Well we all know you are and are full of hate so it's par for the course with you. Then again you blame fire victims too so it's too be expected from a loser like you. Bye Bye Dingle Barry, you're just out.
Many times I page through the Townhall posts. I did read this one as I think Prager is a reasonable voice. Here's the rest of it where he makes some good points.
One would think that leaders of any great religion would condemn members of their faith who murdered innocent people, destroyed others' houses of worship and homes, and burned down a newspaper's offices.
Yet in all the statements made by Nigeria's leading Muslim officials in the Nigerian press, I could not find a word of condemnation of the Muslim murderers. The Muslim leaders called for calm after accepting the newspaper's abject apologies. But the leaders made it clear that they, not only the Muslim rioters, consider the original article a grave insult to Islam.
Gee I thought Dennis said it was UNDERSTOOD that the violence is abhorent and should be condemmed.
So here's where we stand:
Nigerian Muslim rioters murder innocent Nigerians and burn down over 20 churches because of an innocuous sentence in a Nigerian newspaper.
The West and its press choose to regard the Nigerian violence as merely "sectarian violence," and hold Nigerian Christians equally culpable.
Here's where he nails it to a tee.
Muslims kill non-Muslims and the victims (i.e., the editors of the newspaper whose offices were razed) are told to apologize -- just as after 9-11, America has been repeatedly told to apologize to the Muslim world, and just as Israel, while enduring massacre after massacre at the hands of Muslim terrorists, is told to apologize for defending itself.
Bingo !
Nigerian Muslim leaders do not say a word against their murderous co-religionists but they do declare one innocuous sentence by a young woman writer to be an "abomination."
The woman who wrote the sentence has been fired.
The editor of ThisDay has been arrested and not been heard from since. One fears for his life. And ours
You know what though Dennis, I don't think you're anti semetic. I also believe you know that I am not anti Islamic as well. Throwing around accusations of racism is too easy for both of us. One can oppose an Islamic posistion without being anti Islamic, same goes for Israel. I can take issue with what I see is a wrong policy or belief that stoning women for infidelity is wrong or torching churches and killing because of a beauty pageant. I see it as wrong, intolerant and downright evil, it doesn't make every Muslim evil or wrong but it was a stupid and sad thing to do. Just as you find plenty of fault with Israel and what you feel is a misguided policy doesn't make you anti semitic either. So let's make a deal and stick to the issues and not accuse when we both know deep down that are posistions aren't based in racism. O.K ?
"Something substantially less than real freedom, by only those means that preserve my power and privilege, keeping me prosperous and happy."
-- I.M. Conservative
Malcolm's famous statement has resonated with oppressed peoples around the world, and has justifiably assumed status as an axiomatic truth.
How could it be otherwise?
When ruthlessly exploitative and oppressive powers employ any and all methods to subjugate their victims, no one can rationally, or morally, expect that the victimized would stop short of the means that would finally bring about their liberation.
Those means being determined by the exigencies of the given situation, through what has been denied them by the oppressor, in terms of more moderate possibilities.
If the democratic space for realizing reform has never been provided, who could honestly argue that radical, revolutionary methods should not be used?
Would American revolutionaries have abided by a British request to not get too "nasty" in seeking liberty?
The armchair observer might want nonviolent alternatives, perhaps in accordance with Gandhi's soul-force techniques, but how practical would that be in any of several, current global settings where the relentless might of the controlling entity is so staunch and unyielding?
It's pretty tough, not to mention wildly presumptuous, for someone not aware of what an oppressed people's true, day-to-day reality entails...to ask those people to go slow, or easy, or not to resort to freedom fighting that's then portrayed as terrorism...when failing to take such decisive action could mean the painful perpetuation of indignities, injustices and cruelties on many thousands, for an interminable time.
This brings us to the Palestinian suicide bomber.
Such bombings were completely missing from the first Intifada. They began during the second, only after the staggeringly devastating Israeli decision to foreclose Palestinian employment possibilities -- resulting in countless lost jobs -- and an ensuing new level of hurtful deprivation for a populace already denied in so many basic ways. The last straw, provoking a terrible sense of desperation.
Those having no conception of the incredible abuses endured by the Palestinians under so many decades of iron-hand Zionist rule -- thanks to white-washing propaganda so pervasive in the U.S. -- are in no credible position to castigate, out of context, the suicide-bomber phenomenon.
Their prejudice, compounded by general anti-Arabic/Islamic biases arising out of 9/11 which allow them to make no differentiations based on varying conditions, render their moralizing objectively moot.
The best (and really ONLY) action that anyone repulsed by such murderous retaliation can take is to press for changes in U.S. -backed Israeli policy, which would lead to an easing of tensions and conflict on the ground, ultimately permitting the establishment of a genuinely sovereign Palestinian homeland.
Israeli Labor will challenge Likud's extremism, arguing that continuing the current, bloody stalemate is more threatening to Israel's existence than a two-state solution.
That realistic approach, together with support for Palestinians willing to back off from the brink (who grow fewer each day as Sharon's bellicosity swells), has to be supported by all people of good will everywhere.
In the meantime, let's insist on a peaceful solution with Iraq, to avoid adding further volatility to the Middle East tinderbox.
Yesterday the Sharon government asked Washington for an additional $14 billion for military assistance and loan guarantees.
I suggest that what we should really be worrying about is how our tax dollars continue to be used, not only in the Occupied Territories, but in several locales throughout the world...to decisively facilitate the cruel repression of peoples with legitimate and eminently just self-determination longings.
Israel is a routine, massive recipient of our "largesse".
As is Turkey, which brutalizes the Kurds.
Many, if not most, of the para-militaries and armies in the world today that are violently thwarting popular movements for freedom get their weapons from Uncle Sam.
Which has been the case for virtually all of the post WWII period.
Are the people being vamped on anti-American?
Yes, increasingly so.
Are lots of them turning to nihilistic, individual terrorism because nothing else has worked to win their liberty?
Unquestionably.
"Give me liberty or give me death" is not a sentiment exclusive to Colonial Americans of 200-plus years ago.
It's universal.
Now, however, it's gotten to be "Give me liberty or give me death, and your death as well."
We fund the repression.
We up the ante with each new shipment of money and guns.
Sure, there are some unequivocally bad and even insane elements arrayed against us.
But most, in Africa, Asia and Latin America, are freedom fighters in the noblest tradition.
And our unrelenting support of strongmen, tyrants, fascistic contras, etc., inexorably drives their unrelievedly suffering victims to fight back by means that repulse decent sensibilities.
Are natural causes like drought exclusively to blame?
No.
Austerity impositions and "re-adjustment" forced on African countries by the U.S.-dominated IMF and World Bank are literally killing the African people's capacity to feed themselves.
Globalization for the benefit of the Western "market" is spurring mass hunger and desperation among the world's underdeveloped poor.
Read this piece, not from some "socialist" publication that conservative biases wouldn't trust (even though the true Left has been calling attention to this travesty for years).
This is from Knight-Ridder, owner of our former host, the Pioneer Press.
As you read it, and as our self-serving policies continue, just remember that the devastated people described will be the "terrorists" of tomorrow.
Dennis, I read what you posted and do so with an open mind.
You say this in your post
Are natural causes like drought primarily to blame?
No.
And yet the first paragraph of the article says this.
GWENGWE, Malawi - Government corruption, AIDS and erratic rainfall are among the chief culprits behind the food shortages in southern Africa. But the international community has made things worse, say Western and African relief agencies, local activists and human rights groups.
Notice it said among the chief culprits are corruption, AIDS, and erratic rainfall. But your first sentnece seems to contradict it.
Then I read this.
In the early 1990s, global lending agencies such as the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank, wealthy governments and Western consultants began urging poor African nations to embrace economic belt-tightening policies in exchange for billions of aid dollars. Money-losing socialized-agricultural programs were privatized, trimmed or abolished at the same time that foreign investment in Africa's agriculture was shrinking.
IMF officials say their policies, while stringent, are necessary to force some African governments to spend their budgets on education, health, and most of all, on long-term economic growth that can reduce poverty.
"When you have to undergo economic adjustments, they are never painless," said William Murray, an IMF spokesman who said accusations that IMF policies are hurting Africa don't "hold water."
Notice it said billions in aid ? Yes it's all our fault.
The IMF, World Bank, Oxfam and aid workers argue that it's hypocritical for the rich countries that are the main shareholders in the World Bank and IMF to push for open markets and free trade in poor African nations while subsidizing their own farmers. This, in effect, closes many U.S. and European markets for African goods that can't compete with the artificially low prices created by Western subsidies, they say.
Much of the anger is aimed at President Bush, for pushing a bill through Congress that sanctions $100 billion in farm subsidies over the next eight years.
So the main reason they are having problems is because we are subsidizing farmers here. We just talked about it on the other thread. So let me ask you Dennis, if Bush were to have cut Farm subsidies by 100 billion instead of increasing it 100 billion copuld we have expected a post or two from you on how he was hurting our farming brothers in the heartland of America ?
Seems to me you can't please everyone. Help farmers here hurt farmers elsewhere.
Not pervasive "latifundista" agriculture largely geared to production of specialized crops favored by Western tastes.
The best lands for the benefit of the most people, under their direct, democratic control.
Forgiveness of crushing Third World debt.
Mixed-economy endeavors.
Wide utilization of public-profit cooperatives.
Trade predicated on fairness and the establishment of universal labor standards.
A worldwide "green" environmental sensibility.
These are measures that would begin to close the dangerous gap between parasite haves and host have-nots -- which is this planet's leading cause of incipient social and political unrest, including revolution and terrorism.
These are measures that would begin to close the dangerous gap between parasite haves and host have-nots -- which is this planet's leading cause of incipient social and political unrest, including revolution and terrorism. Â Â
I'll remind you again that the highjackers of 9-11 were mostly well educated middle class adults.
Bin Laden has more money than you or I combined will ever see in our lifetime. Kinda shoots that theory don't it.
I used "exclusively" over "primarily" in the first instance that you questioned as a contradiction.
And "incipient" in the passage regarding terrorism in a have/have-not context.
Additionally...
Marx was of the upper classes by background.
Che Guevara was a physician.
Yet they, and others who attuned their political lives to the condition of the proletariat and the poor, inspired great movements of workingclass and agrarian revolt.
Subsidization of farmers?
Fair prices predicated on authentically fair trade, and universally established labor standards, would obviate the need.
If we're truly honest and accurate, the paramount reason for Third World hunger is that foreigners, and internal elites, looking out for their narrow interest first...control developing countries' economies, not the needy people themselves.
Empowerment of the common person is the solution for the common person's troubles.
Here is an argument from some COM-CON on the abortion topic thread---
What about LIFE???
There is NOTHING more violent than ripping, pulling, sucking and dismembering a perfectly formed little baby limb by limb, organ by organ, and sucking hunks of bloody flesh out of a woman, then charging her money and telling her you provided a service for her.
I will stand before you alone, Dennis ...with my moral fortitude and with all the confidence and conviction of someone defending the innocent.... I will say to you, Dennis, "EVEN THE TINIEST AND MOST DEFENSELESS OF HUMANS IS VALUABLE AND WORTHY OF THE RIGHT TO LIFE" and worth the TIME those who are pro-life take to help defend the defenseless.
And.... any organization who promotes or refers people to pay for the "service" of having someone rip to shreds, dismembering limb by limb and sucking out hunks of bloody flesh of a tiny, defenseless little baby from the safety of the womb is a horrid, money loving inhumane organization.
And .....as I have said numerous times, ...anyone actually committing violence against ANY facility associated with either side of the abortion issue or it's employees or customers is NOT acceptable and should be held accountable and punished.
How many unborn babies have been killed while Bush-Clinton-Bush's impotent campaign to unseat Sodamn Insane drags on and on? How many COM-CONs--- with their moral fortitude and with all the confidence and conviction of someone defending the innocent have turned their backs on their own selves in order to support "just" wars? Your "patriotism" reeks of hypocrisy.
"You know why conservatives love the Saudi government?   Because it stands for everything they do. It oppresses women,   it forces religion down people's throats, and it loves money above   everything else. Those are the three fundamentals of conservatism."       --James Carville, Crossfire, 11/25/02
If we're truly honest and accurate, the paramount reason for Third World hunger is that foreigners, and internal elites,looking out for their narrow interest first...control developing countries' economies, not the needy people themselves.
Kudos to you for this not often recognized truth
foreigners, and internal elites,
the connivance of greedy capitalists and local Judas like persons is the cause
The bribe giver and the bribe taker are equally culpable.
The world however berates the whore while the paying John is dealt with marginally.
The FACT is that Africa is a basket case because of massive governmental corruption on a continent-wide scale. American foreign aid goes right into governmental pockets.
Naradar, your post from another thread:
"I will give thanks that I made the decision and was able to migrate to the United States and become a proud citizen , thus opening up endless opportunities for my progeny."
Bush says results of Iraq inspections are not encouraging WASHINGTON -- Despite the return of United Nations weapons inspectors to Iraq, President Bush said ``the signs are not encouraging'' about Saddam Hussein's willingness to disarm.
If Napoleon says Snowball did it, then it is right.
"Some on the American right have sought from the beginning to downplay the importance of the inspections, insisting that U.N. inspections chief Hans Blix was insufficiently aggressive, or that the rules written for this round of inspections were full of loopholes. But Bush accepted those rules and can't now credibly double back to attack them."
Will Bush want Hans Blix to plant something?
I saw a cartoon the other day with bombs raining down outside the window when a UN weapons inspector ordered ranch dressing at an Iraqi restaurant dressing and got blue cheese instead.
Frankly Rick I think it will be hard to find anything. After all the debate and screwing around at the U.N and months of debate Iraq had plenty of time to hide things under the bed, they knew the inspectors were coming. It would be like calling a drug dealer and telling them when the cops are coming and wonder why nothing was found.
It's a large country and by now I'm sure that the elements needed are store underground out in the middle of nowhere by now. I have listened to some of the other inspectors say the same thing essentially. So we are to believe that they had them before, kicked inspectors out and then quit making or developing them on their own valission. Perhaps a miracle happened and Sadamn saw the error in his ways and put all these things away.
Here's the saddest part of all, a quote from Kofi.
Amin said Iraq was cooperating fully with U.N. weapons inspectors but condemned their inspection of a presidential palace in Baghdad Tuesday, saying it was unjustified provocation.
"The aim (of palace inspection) is political. It aims at provoking Iraq and hurting its dignity and sovereignty," Amin said.
Well Kofi, the "palaces" cover 20 square miles, gee do you think they just might do as they've done in the past and hide this stuff in civilian areas, mosques and "palaces" Naaah not the Iraqie govt. Geesh, no wonder the U.N has turned into the dead poests society.
What happens if the weapons inspectors don't find anything?
The only way they won't find something is if they don't look in the right places. That would probably be intentional. We already know some of what they have. We want them to get rid of it.
Dennis,
I agree wholehertedly. It's one of the things I love about this country. It's that you and I may worship or not worship as we see fit. We've been able to do so without the large scale problems that so many countries face internally ie: the Hindu, Muslim battle in India etc. But you also perhaps point out the biggest problem in the current world situation. And that is that the numerous fundemental religious groups especially the extremist Muslims are taking over and becoming the mainstream in many countries. They preach hate at an early age in many cases.
What you fail to see is their own version of hatred. When I see a 7 year old being taught that Jews and Westerners are all infidels and defile the ground the "believers" walk on it reminds me of a guy in 38'. In many cases it has nothing more to do about politics or policy than it does raw hatred and a religion highjacked by extremists. I don't recall hearing the masses call for death to all Muslims. I have however heard the opposite from the nutjobs spreading there hate. Thier hate is more intense and raw than any other idea or reason you could ever cook up. It's not about beauty pageants.
Well inspectors are back which is a good thing I guess. Does anyone really think they'll find anything ?
I have my doubts, for one they have had 3-4 months knowing this was coming to hide everything. To me it would be like calling a drug lord and saying we'll you're a naughty drug lord. Do you have any drugs to declare ? What do we expect them to say? They've had time to hide everything. Can you imagine calling the same drug lord and saying....." Um hey we know it's only August but we'd like to search your place for drugs, how does the 20th of November sound, great that works for us too, See you then. Now make sure you have all your drugs on the kitchen table when we come through. Oh, what's that, we can't look in your temple, err I mean closets, well o.k. see you the 20th."
I don't expect them to cooperate or for 20 or so people to find anything in a nation bigger than California with a govt. that is good at delaying and had months to hide things. Then I'm sure many will say, see we told you they didn't have anything. Sure, O.K, well as long as we all feel better politically about it right ?
The Crusades.
Europe's Bible-and-sword colonialism.
Contemporary Western imperialism rapaciously carried out in the Third World by capitalist/Christian powers.
Zionism's U.S.-abetted, surpassingly repressive thwarting of Palestinian nationhood.
Bush's "the Iraqis are coming" lie to launch an aggressive war against a major Islamic nation, for oil, to be subsequently followed by a similar move on Iran.
Conservatives totally ignore this crucial historical context.
Furthermore, they themselves have "hijacked" Christianity and forced it into a rigid, intolerant fundamentalism which haughtily sees their faith as superior to all others.
It goes without saying that infinitely more innocent blood has been spilled over time by armies and empires professing to act in behalf of Jesus than any other.
But it would be wrong to consequently conclude that Christianity is
"bad" and "wrong" per se -- which is what I clearly see happening
in rightwing polemics leveled at Islam.
Just as Christianity has denominations, tendencies, groups
working gently and progressively in the secular realm, and
a righteous tenor in Christ's core teachings (contrasted
with subsequent distortions and impostions by lesser souls,
the Apostle Paul, for one)...so, too, has Islam.
Criticize the terrorists.
But don't bash the entire religion, or all Arabic peoples.
Doing so would be a thinly different variant of Hitler's scapegoating of Jews.
And the precursor, in the deteriorating U.S.
civil rights environment, of putting Arab Americans and
Muslims in general in concentration camps, as was done with
Japanese Americans during WWII.
Finally, honestly examine the ongoing, selfishly-motivated misdeeds
of our own policies that are justifiably so infuriating to peoples
around the planet who have different outlooks and values.
Hatred doesn't arise in a vacuum.
Rahkonen wrote: Hatred doesn't arise in a vacuum.
No one thought you lived in one, Rahkonen.
As for the Nigerian situation, the true circumstance still totally
eludes the Right.
Here's a good assessment of what happened -- and what's at stake -- by writer Ros Coward, from the Guardian/UK:
The riots in Nigeria were ultimately triggered, not by the contest itself but by a piece in a local paper claiming the prophet himself might have chosen a wife from these beauties. The Nigeria debacle shows how naive people are about this divide between cultures, especially in a post- September 11 world. A culture where a woman can be stoned to death for adultery clearly contains elements that will not be entranced by a parade of female flesh or the "modernity" it promises. To hold the contest during Ramadan compounds the insult.
This is the same cultural naivety exposed by the bombing of the Sari club in Bali. The consolation some clubbers exchanged after the outrage betrays this same sense that the world is a playground where the true human (western) values can be paraded. Because no harm is meant, no offence should be taken. One clubber mourned the passing of the club on a website, saying "it was the United Nations of decadence" without any sense that this is what made it a target.
This new era of Muslim fundamentalism has changed the world but few in the west seem to realize this. Before September 11, casual imperialism caused offence when the west paraded its interests and values as self-evidently desirable. Now the reluctance to attack representatives of western values has disappeared even among those with no involvement in extremist organizations. Those rioting on the streets of Kaduna were not members of al-Qaida but they had no hesitation in attacking what they see as western values.
In such a world we should think carefully about what values we want to parade. Democracy, equality and tolerance certainly. But a beauty contest?
No even most on the left get it too, notice I said most. But you got it figured out eh Dennis.
From the bile in the Guardian.
Ok so they were insulted, so we or the west is naieve about there culture. So the culture that would stone a woman to death for adultery is offended, how terrible for the people who organized the contest to hold it there. A forepaugh yes but how silly that we try not to offend those who would stone a woman to death, how insensitive of us. I mean any cultural boo boo should be met by such measures, what did you silly westerners expect.
So that makes it o.k.
I noticed this statement.
So they are saying now even non-extremist elements have no problem attacking western targets. Well so much for the "it's just the extremist element" crowd. Looks like it's many not a few.
I haven't seen that much dung in print since the last edition of liberalslant.com In that drivel from the Guardian not once you'll note did it condem the attacks. So to them it's o.k since they committed the ultimate sin of not being sensative to a culture. So from now on according to the Dennis and others we should all simply expect to be killed by even mainstream muslims if we make a cultural boo boo or offend someone or dare show that you are from the evil west.
But let's rationalize with people that would stone a woman to death for kissing the neighbor, let's make sure we bend over backwards to appease them and those that blow up nightclubs and skyscrapers.
This is the exact b.s that keeps morons like this in a minority because reasonable folks understand that it's not o.k to riot and kill hundreds because you held a stupid beauty contest. Go ahead, backtrack or defend it. It's telling of how sick some people are and the level of hatred by people who sit on there perch and tirelessly tell others how evil they are. They would apologize for any level of violence as long as it's anti western. It's sick and hateful but then again so are they.
The one thing that's at least perhaps a blessing is that they at least are sparing us from what we already knew. As is obvious they don't go out of the way to condem the death of innocent people from the west. At least it spares us the disingenuous drivel about how they care. They don't except for the ones perpatrating the attack since they find sympathy with there cause. It's the same thing they have accused others of for years but there's solid evidence they do the same. They don't care about those who died on 9-11 or in Bali or in the riots or anywhere else if they were western I mean what did we expect ?. At least now they have spared us from the lip service. But how sad and pathetic on there part. It makes any message they might have moot.
Still missing the boat like a car going splat as it tries to jump the ferry, eh, Rob?
It is UNDERSTOOD that the rioting, with all of the terrible violence that took place, is wrong.
It is UNDERSTOOD that Islamic fundamentalism, with all of its sexist and other reactionary, archaic bigotry is a retrograde thing -- mirroring hidebound Christian fundamentalism.
It is UNDERSTOOD that the Bali nightclub attack was an inexcusable
outrage.
The simple point we are trying to make is that, when the West incessantly conducts relations with developing countries that invariably involve not HELPING them but helping ourselves to their wealth (plus saddling them with our thoroughly depraved culture), the popular animosity that results can and does get out of hand.
Especially when some hugely stupid insensitivity or insult is thoughtlessly interjected into the volatile mix.
And it also plays directly INTO the hands of the very worst elements
out there.
The gangster-terrorists.
You remember them, don't you, Rob?
The guys who, in a number of countries and previous situations, were our former allies in the Cold War.
We turned a blind eye to their opium trading and recruited them
to launch shoulder-fired Stingers at Russian helicopters.
Gee, I wonder where they learned their mayhem proficiency!
I also wonder about exactly what sort of betrayal was involved, by whom, that made these reptilian friends of ours a deacde ago...our
brutal nemesis today.
What you don't UNDERSTAND is that a proper America would never associate with such thugs in the first place.
And that our policy has to be altered from abject self-absorption
and exploitation to one of fairness and mutual respect for foreign
peoples, thereby obviating the appeal of the likes of Osama.
Let's win friends for the USA via an enlighted outlook and just
conduct, so that the whole world isn't consumed by violence that
bin Laden can manipulate -- with Bush's foolhardiness -- so that
WE become the worst enemy in international eyes.
That Rob, he can be so intolerant.
Let's win friends for the USA via an enlighted outlook and just conduct, so that the whole world isn't consumed by violence that bin Laden can manipulate -- with Bush's foolhardiness -- so that WE become the worst enemy in international eyes.
Screw that noise.
I say we find Bin Laden's family, and kill them all.
Find Atta's family, and kill them all.
Find the families of each and every highjacker on those planes, and kill them all.
According to your logic, they've given us reason to act like suicidal maniacs. They gave us reason, didn't they? We can manipulate that, can't we? There's no mutual respect in this situation, is there? There's no enlightenment on their part, is there? They are currently the worst enemy in our eyes, aren't they? I mean, a proper America would never associate with thugs like them, would we? So we should just kill them all, shouldn't we?
::slams head on desk::
btw: The above was extreme sarcasm.
For one not only did you nor the article denounce it in the last post but it's NOT UNDERSTOOD Dennis, you're the by any means nessecary guy so no it's not understood, in fact the only thing that is understood by rational people is that there are those who legitimize and give creedence to what these people do and even bother to post such drivel about why a nightclub and a beauty pageant were such friggen injustices and insensative to these people that you would plead for no western influence and then turn aroiund and scream at us for being intolerant. Yea, there the models of friggin tolerance, it's all our fault.
It was voluntary. The nightclub in Bali and the beauty pageant weren't there because the UN went in at gunpoint and said hey you guys gotta have a beauty pageant and a bar damint !
So much for tolerance eh ? So instead let's worry about offending those who would do so.
Yea, they attacked our country on 9-11 do you remember that ? I wonder sometimes, go take a look at Binny's new letter.
Yea and we helped them, regardless of motivation we helped them and look what we got in return. Had they gone in and wiped out half their people and took over I'm sure you'd have been ranting about how we didn't help. I guess you can't win with people like you. You're looking for evil but looking in the wrong place sometimes.
It matters not that a Nigerian article precipitated the riots.
It was the presence of the beauty pageant that elicited the newspaper commentary.
Dennis Rahkonen - (PFID:13d34f) - 10:21am Nov 24, 2002 PST (# 2667 of 2703)
The riots in Nigeria were ultimately triggered, not by the contest itself but by a piece in a local paper claiming the prophet himself might have chosen a wife from these beauties.
Dennis Rahkonen - (PFID:13d34f) - 03:25pm Nov 25, 2002 PST (# 118 of 123)
Which is it Dennis? It is hard to keep up with your changing claims.
My view is consistent and correct.
Only fools throw gasoline on fire and then wonder why they got burned.
Whether it's Bush's government, the military, or profit-seeking commercial/financial interests, "our" policy is like Daffy Duck playing with matches in its self-defeating outcome.
Meanwhile, democracy gets driven into the swampy woods outside
Duluth...
CHENEY OWES DULUTH PROTESTERS AN APOLOGY
Within the past week I have read two point of view columns concerning what happened to the peace protesters who tried to display signs when Vice President Dick Cheney spoke at the Hermantown School.
I was absolutely stunned to find they had been herded, like cattle, to a fenced-off area far behind the school and threatened with arrest if they did not obey the police. Orders, no doubt, handed down by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
In the past, I have peacefully protested the Vietnam War and the Des Moines ship. We were just a small group of little old ladies in tennis shoes, a few veterans, some church groups and college kids.
We certainly weren't dangerous. We carried no weapons, just some homemade cardboard signs.
When James Madison drew up the Bill of Rights, which came into effect on Dec. 15, 1791, it was to ensure that citizens were to be born with certain rights the government cannot take away from them. The First Amendment calls for the right of the people to peacefully assemble and to address the government for a redress of grievances.
So tell me, if Madison, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Monroe, Benjamin Franklin, Patrick Henry and George Washington had been standing amongt that group of Grandmothers for Peace and Loaves and Fishes Catholic Workers, do you think they too would have been herded away and threatened with arrest?
I think Cheney and the FBI owe that group of people an abject apology. Frankly, the people should sue them! Many years ago there was a young man from Galilee who led a group of rag-tag protesters. He went around preaching about love and mercy saying, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." They crucified him.
--KONI SUNDQUIST, DULUTH
http://www.americaheldhostile.com/ed090702.shtml
I've written too doggeral poems about what we've been discussing.
They're far from masterpieces of craft, but I believe they
get to a fundamental truth you guys just won't let yourselves see.
Here's a link to the first.
The other is over at the General Politics board.
Funny, alot of it sounds similar to the Bin Laden letter.
From that web-site of Dennis':
Presidency held hostile: 786 Days left.
Congress held hostile: 772 Days left.
Shows just how out of touch they are with reality.
I mean, even if I accept the "Bush stole the Presidency" B.S., how the hell is Congress being held hostage?
I swear these people are mentally ill.
btw: I did read the poem. Once again, it's all our fault. It appears we don't deserve to live. We should start advocating mass suicides for Americans.
Don't forget conversions to Islam and death to the Jew. Ya Silly friggin infidel.
I see--- so intimidation, intolerance and racism is the right way to win votes. That's COMpassionate-CONservatism right there in a NUTshell---Read Robertson's platform Don--- it pretty much states that he will stop at nothing for his earthly power. And also, Don--- if you support the COM-CONs then you support Robertson and his kind too--- since he and his organizations--- legit or not--- are some of the chief finacial supporters of the GOP. Think about that while you pray. You DO pray, don't you Don?
Do all Muslims support death to Jews? Where do you get these crazy ideas Fly-boy---talk radio? You see goof-ball, when an idea is repeated over and over enough, people begin to accept it as truth--- ever hear the phrase "he who fucks nuns will later join the church"? What this means is that when you expose yourself to extremist ideology for too long a period you too begin to be one.
No Duane, you're full of enough hate for everyone. But if you learned how to read and followed the thread you'd know I was talking about the extremist sects of course that would require knowing what you were talking about first before you typed away.
Speaking of hate have you blamed any disaster victims for living there lately ?
As I said before--- he who fucks nuns---
DuaneBarry--- victorious, over and out
That's really nice and I'm sure quite offensive to Catholics, Hmmm someone was just talking about intolerance, Well we all know you are and are full of hate so it's par for the course with you. Then again you blame fire victims too so it's too be expected from a loser like you. Bye Bye Dingle Barry, you're just out.
Nigerian Muslim rioters murder innocent Nigerians and burn down over 20 churches because of an innocuous sentence in a Nigerian newspaper.
Jethro,
Many times I page through the Townhall posts. I did read this one as I think Prager is a reasonable voice.
Here's the rest of it where he makes some good points.
Gee I thought Dennis said it was UNDERSTOOD that the violence is abhorent and should be condemmed.
Here's where he nails it to a tee.
Bingo !
Scary, isn't it.
http://www.adc.org/index.php?id=1332
Swallow your anti-Islamic bias, if you can.
And take time to view the video clips at this website.
Crucial truths about the Palestinian struggle, seldom available to
non-Arabic Americans.
O.K if you can swallow your anti semitic bias.
You know what though Dennis, I don't think you're anti semetic. I also believe you know that I am not anti Islamic as well. Throwing around accusations of racism is too easy for both of us. One can oppose an Islamic posistion without being anti Islamic, same goes for Israel. I can take issue with what I see is a wrong policy or belief that stoning women for infidelity is wrong or torching churches and killing because of a beauty pageant. I see it as wrong, intolerant and downright evil, it doesn't make every Muslim evil or wrong but it was a stupid and sad thing to do. Just as you find plenty of fault with Israel and what you feel is a misguided policy doesn't make you anti semitic either. So let's make a deal and stick to the issues and not accuse when we both know deep down that are posistions aren't based in racism. O.K ?
"Freedom by any means necessary!"
-- Malcolm X
"Something substantially less than real freedom, by only those means that preserve my power and privilege, keeping me prosperous and happy."
-- I.M. Conservative
Malcolm's famous statement has resonated with oppressed peoples around the world, and has justifiably assumed status as an axiomatic truth.
How could it be otherwise?
When ruthlessly exploitative and oppressive powers employ any and
all methods to subjugate their victims, no one can rationally, or morally, expect that the victimized would stop short of the means that would finally bring about their liberation.
Those means being determined by the exigencies of the given situation, through what has been denied them by the oppressor, in terms of more moderate possibilities.
If the democratic space for realizing reform has never been provided, who could honestly argue that radical, revolutionary methods should not be used?
Would American revolutionaries have abided by a British request to not get too "nasty" in seeking liberty?
The armchair observer might want nonviolent alternatives, perhaps in accordance with Gandhi's soul-force techniques, but how practical would that be in any of several, current global settings where the relentless might of the controlling entity is so staunch and unyielding?
It's pretty tough, not to mention wildly presumptuous, for someone not aware of what an oppressed people's true, day-to-day reality entails...to ask those people to go slow, or easy, or not to resort to freedom fighting that's then portrayed as terrorism...when failing to take such decisive action could mean the painful perpetuation of indignities, injustices and cruelties on many thousands, for an interminable time.
This brings us to the Palestinian suicide bomber.
Such bombings were completely missing from the first
Intifada. They began during the second, only after the
staggeringly devastating Israeli decision to foreclose Palestinian employment possibilities -- resulting in countless lost jobs -- and an ensuing new level of hurtful deprivation for a populace already denied in so many basic ways. The last straw, provoking a terrible sense of desperation.
Those having no conception of the incredible abuses endured
by the Palestinians under so many decades of iron-hand Zionist
rule -- thanks to white-washing propaganda so pervasive in the U.S. -- are in no credible position to castigate, out of context, the suicide-bomber phenomenon.
Their prejudice, compounded by general anti-Arabic/Islamic biases arising out of 9/11 which allow them to make no differentiations based on varying conditions, render their moralizing objectively moot.
The best (and really ONLY) action that anyone repulsed by
such murderous retaliation can take is to press for changes
in U.S. -backed Israeli policy, which would lead to an easing of tensions and conflict on the ground, ultimately permitting the establishment of a genuinely sovereign Palestinian homeland.
Israeli Labor will challenge Likud's extremism, arguing that continuing the current, bloody stalemate is more threatening to Israel's existence than a two-state solution.
That realistic approach, together with support for
Palestinians willing to back off from the brink (who grow fewer
each day as Sharon's bellicosity swells), has to be supported by
all people of good will everywhere.
In the meantime, let's insist on a peaceful solution with Iraq, to avoid adding further volatility to the Middle East tinderbox.
It goes without saying that there ARE some truly off-the-wall
elements on the fringes of Islam.
Kindred spirits to rightwing extremists within Christianity's otherwise
tolerable and pretty tolerant ranks.
The difference is I wouldn't defend either of them.
Yesterday the Sharon government asked Washington for an additional
$14 billion for military assistance and loan guarantees.
I suggest that what we should really be worrying
about is how our tax dollars continue to be used, not only
in the Occupied Territories, but in several locales throughout
the world...to decisively facilitate the cruel repression of
peoples with legitimate and eminently just self-determination longings.
Israel is a routine, massive recipient of our "largesse".
As is Turkey, which brutalizes the Kurds.
Many, if not most, of the para-militaries and armies in the world
today that are violently thwarting popular movements for freedom
get their weapons from Uncle Sam.
Which has been the case for virtually all of the post WWII period.
Are the people being vamped on anti-American?
Yes, increasingly so.
Are lots of them turning to nihilistic, individual terrorism because
nothing else has worked to win their liberty?
Unquestionably.
"Give me liberty or give me death" is not a sentiment exclusive to
Colonial Americans of 200-plus years ago.
It's universal.
Now, however, it's gotten to be "Give me liberty or give me death, and your death as well."
We fund the repression.
We up the ante with each new shipment of money and guns.
Sure, there are some unequivocally bad and even insane elements arrayed against us.
But most, in Africa, Asia and Latin America, are freedom fighters in the noblest tradition.
And our unrelenting support of strongmen, tyrants, fascistic
contras, etc., inexorably drives their unrelievedly suffering
victims to fight back by means that repulse decent sensibilities.
Who really deserves to be condemned?
Sadly true, however, it will never or it should never be allowed to work and or be rewarded.
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthtribune/2002/11/25/news/nation/4600197.htm
Africa is in the midst of a worsening famine.
Are natural causes like drought exclusively to blame?
No.
Austerity impositions and "re-adjustment" forced on African countries by the U.S.-dominated IMF and World Bank are literally killing the African people's capacity to feed themselves.
Globalization for the benefit of the Western "market" is spurring
mass hunger and desperation among the world's underdeveloped poor.
Read this piece, not from some "socialist" publication that conservative biases wouldn't trust (even though the true Left has been calling attention to this travesty for years).
This is from Knight-Ridder, owner of our former host, the Pioneer
Press.
As you read it, and as our self-serving policies continue, just remember that the devastated people described will be the "terrorists" of tomorrow.
Dennis, I read what you posted and do so with an open mind.
You say this in your post
And yet the first paragraph of the article says this.
Notice it said among the chief culprits are corruption, AIDS, and erratic rainfall. But your first sentnece seems to contradict it.
Then I read this.
Notice it said billions in aid ? Yes it's all our fault.
So the main reason they are having problems is because we are subsidizing farmers here. We just talked about it on the other thread. So let me ask you Dennis, if Bush were to have cut Farm subsidies by 100 billion instead of increasing it 100 billion copuld we have expected a post or two from you on how he was hurting our farming brothers in the heartland of America ?
Seems to me you can't please everyone. Help farmers here hurt farmers elsewhere.
Land reform based on mass, food need.
Not pervasive "latifundista" agriculture largely geared to production of specialized crops favored by Western tastes.
The best lands for the benefit of the most people, under their direct, democratic control.
Forgiveness of crushing Third World debt.
Mixed-economy endeavors.
Wide utilization of public-profit cooperatives.
Trade predicated on fairness and the establishment of universal labor standards.
A worldwide "green" environmental sensibility.
These are measures that would begin to close the dangerous gap between parasite haves and host have-nots -- which is this planet's
leading cause of incipient social and political unrest, including
revolution and terrorism.
I'll remind you again that the highjackers of 9-11 were mostly well educated middle class adults.
Bin Laden has more money than you or I combined will ever see in our lifetime. Kinda shoots that theory don't it.
You need to pay closer attention to my wording.
I used "exclusively" over "primarily" in the first instance that you questioned as a contradiction.
And "incipient" in the passage regarding terrorism in a have/have-not context.
Additionally...
Marx was of the upper classes by background.
Che Guevara was a physician.
Yet they, and others who attuned their political lives to the
condition of the proletariat and the poor, inspired great movements
of workingclass and agrarian revolt.
Subsidization of farmers?
Fair prices predicated on authentically fair trade, and universally established labor standards, would obviate the need.
If we're truly honest and accurate, the paramount reason for Third World hunger is that foreigners, and internal elites,
looking out for their narrow interest first...control developing countries' economies, not the needy people themselves.
Empowerment of the common person is the solution for the common person's troubles.
Everywhere.
Sure I'll forgive 3rd world debt. As soon as the gov't forgives mine.
Here is an argument from some COM-CON on the abortion topic thread---
How many unborn babies have been killed while Bush-Clinton-Bush's impotent campaign to unseat Sodamn Insane drags on and on? How many COM-CONs--- with their moral fortitude and with all the confidence and conviction of someone defending the innocent have turned their backs on their own selves in order to support "just" wars? Your "patriotism" reeks of hypocrisy.
"You know why conservatives love the Saudi government?
  Because it stands for everything they do. It oppresses women,
  it forces religion down people's throats, and it loves money above
  everything else. Those are the three fundamentals of conservatism."
      --James Carville, Crossfire, 11/25/02
Dennis Rahkonen 11/27/02 3:19pm
If we're truly honest and accurate, the paramount reason for Third World hunger is that foreigners, and internal elites,looking out for their narrow interest first...control developing countries' economies, not the needy people themselves.
Kudos to you for this not often recognized truth
foreigners, and internal elites,
the connivance of greedy capitalists and local Judas like persons is the cause
The bribe giver and the bribe taker are equally culpable.
The world however berates the whore while the paying John is dealt with marginally.
Foreigners and internal elites...
The FACT is that Africa is a basket case because of massive governmental corruption on a continent-wide scale. American foreign aid goes right into governmental pockets.
Naradar, your post from another thread:
"I will give thanks that I made the decision and was able to migrate to the United States and become a proud citizen , thus opening up endless opportunities for my progeny."
Why did you come to America if you dislike it so?
Bush says results of Iraq inspections are not encouraging
WASHINGTON -- Despite the return of United Nations weapons inspectors to Iraq, President Bush said ``the signs are not encouraging'' about Saddam Hussein's willingness to disarm.
If Napoleon says Snowball did it, then it is right.
Get your war on baby!
What happens if the weapons inspectors don't find anything?
"Some on the American right have sought from the beginning to downplay the importance of the inspections, insisting that U.N. inspections chief Hans Blix was insufficiently aggressive, or that the rules written for this round of inspections were full of loopholes. But Bush accepted those rules and can't now credibly double back to attack them."
Will Bush want Hans Blix to plant something?
I saw a cartoon the other day with bombs raining down outside the window when a UN weapons inspector ordered ranch dressing at an Iraqi restaurant dressing and got blue cheese instead.
Frankly Rick I think it will be hard to find anything.
After all the debate and screwing around at the U.N and months of debate Iraq had plenty of time to hide things under the bed, they knew the inspectors were coming. It would be like calling a drug dealer and telling them when the cops are coming and wonder why nothing was found.
It's a large country and by now I'm sure that the elements needed are store underground out in the middle of nowhere by now. I have listened to some of the other inspectors say the same thing essentially. So we are to believe that they had them before, kicked inspectors out and then quit making or developing them on their own valission. Perhaps a miracle happened and Sadamn saw the error in his ways and put all these things away.
Here's the saddest part of all, a quote from Kofi.
Well Kofi, the "palaces" cover 20 square miles, gee do you think they just might do as they've done in the past and hide this stuff in civilian areas, mosques and "palaces" Naaah not the Iraqie govt. Geesh, no wonder the U.N has turned into the dead poests society.
If you don't think so, what can Bush do, attack anyway?
Is war here likely or not?
What happens if the weapons inspectors don't find anything?
The only way they won't find something is if they don't look in the right places. That would probably be intentional. We already know some of what they have. We want them to get rid of it.
That's not answering the question.