Being one of those outraged environmentalists, I very nearly didn't vote for Barnes over the Northern Perimeter issue. But I did in the end, and was as shocked as nearly everyone else that Perdue actually won.
I really hope he can figure out a way to get out of this mess without making us an international laughing stock. :(
as you can see there were quite a few. No one can argue that Georgia was not part of the Confederacy so it is part of their history. There is no reason that part of the confederate falg should not be included in the newest version.
The 'old flag' advocates are trying to make the issue that the former flag is a mark of respect for all the Confederate veterans-however, they really knew their history they would know that the Confederate battle flag was only introduced as the Georgia state flag in 1956. And the intent was a slap in the face to the civil rights movement--'segregation forever.
It was an attempt to reassert state right's. Remember slavery existed a lot longer under the American flag than it did under the confederate flag.
'Jim Crow' was also part of Georgia history. Should we then include the words 'No Colored Allowed' on the state flag?
It was an attempt to reassert state right's. Remember slavery existed a lot longer under the American flag than it did under the confederate flag.
Interesting that reasserting 'state's rights' was done at that time, in that way. Regardless of how long slavery existed under either flag, honoring it now is a shameful thing.
'Jim Crow' was also part of Georgia history. Should we then include the words 'No Colored Allowed' on the state flag? Did it have a symbol?
Interesting that reasserting 'state's rights' was done at that time, in that way. Regardless of how long slavery existed under either flag, honoring it now is a shameful thing. Honoring the struggle over what government entity the states or the feds is not shameful. It is a struggle that still goes on to some degree as well it should.
I read a story in the Strib this morning that the Supreme Court is debating wether burning crosses falls under free speech and expression.
The Bush Admin has said they'd like to see it banned. I look at it in some ways as the same idiots who burn flags. I find both practices sick and abhorrent. I am really torn, a big part of me thinks they should ban both but a smaller part says I value free speech, even if it's stupid, vulgar, disgusting, or even racist. Interesting to see the outcome though. How do others feel ?
Here's the story.
WASHINGTON -- A case that questions whether cross burning is illegal intimidation or constitutionally protected free speech produced sharp debate among Supreme Court justices Wednesday, with most appearing very troubled by the symbol's link to racial violence.
Justices are considering how far states can go to discourage the Ku Klux Klan and others from burning crosses. At issue is an anti-cross burning Virginia law passed 50 years ago in reaction to Klan intimidation of blacks.
Justice Clarence Thomas, the court's only black member and who rarely speaks in arguments, said crosses were part of ``100 years of lynching in the South.''
``This was a reign of terror, and the cross was a sign of that,'' said Thomas, who was raised in segregated Georgia. ``It is unlike any symbol in our society. It was intended to cause fear, terrorize.''
The justices interrupted each other during the lively argument, comparing crosses to semiautomatic weapons and discussing the history of cross burning.
``The cross has acquired a potency that is at least equal to that of a gun,'' Justice David H. Souter said.
The justices historically have been protective of the free-speech rights of the most controversial of groups, including flag-burners, adult entertainers and people who display swastikas.
In the cross-burning case, they're debating now whether three white men were wrongly prosecuted, in separate cases, for lighting crosses during a Klan rally and in the yard of a black family.
The Virginia Supreme Court overturned the convictions of the men, ruling the burnings were symbolic speech.
The state court relied on a high court decision a decade ago in another cross-burning case. The Supreme Court struck down a city hate crimes ordinance in St. Paul, Minn., that criminalized cross-burning aimed at frightening or angering others ``on the basis of race, color, creed or gender.'' Virginia's law prohibits the activity when done to intimidate a person or group. Here's the rest. Â Â
(Does anyone else find it a tad bizarre, that I, a Southerner all my life, am opposed to the Confederate flag being reintroduced as the Georgia state flag, whereas jethro......)
(Does anyone else find it a tad bizarre, that I, a Southerner all my life, am opposed to the Confederate flag being reintroduced as the Georgia state flag, whereas jethro......)
Bizarre in that a) it isn't your state flag in question, b) you aren't from the South (as far as I know), and c) the typical stereotype is that it is always Southerners who cling to the dear ol' Stars & Bars.
Bizarre in that a) it isn't your state flag in question, b) you aren't from the South (as far as I know), and c) the typical stereotype is that it is always Southerners who cling to the dear ol' Stars & Bars.
I was raised in Missouri some people call that the south. As for c there are more people that support the cause of state's rights than you want to admit.
Now has anyone thought that maybe GW does not want war? That maybe he is rattling the sabres because he knows that if he doesn't Saddam will not comply? If the anti-war crowd had its way it would not threaten Saddam with force and the result of that would be Saddam building more weapons as he laughed about how stupid Americans are. Some liberals are just complete idiots.
"I had it in the early 60's and didn't have any reaction, so I wouldn't have any reaction now...so I want it NOW, if it's all the same to you, GDubbya. "
My sister has an antique trunk in her living room. I'm not sure where it's from, but I don't think it's Germany. Right on the front is a swastika. It's a symbol, from, I think, Norse mythology. Which makes the trunk kind of an interesting piece.
To remove it would be to deface an antique.
Still, I wince a little every time I see it.
There was a park in Miami called Swastika Park. Jewish leaders from Miami Beach wanted to have the name changed. Don't know what became of that.
So Jethro, if Germany wanted to implant the "Swastika" into the upper right-hand 1/4 corner of it's flag, because after all, it's a part of their history, you would approve, right?
The confederate flag and the swastika aren't comparable and only the ignorant try. Remember this fold slavery existed a lot longer under the American flag than it did the confederate flag. And once again the Civil War was not about slavery it was about the power. Specifically, whether the federal government could impose its will on the states.
No it was the power to control the direction the state would take. It was about federal power grab. If it really was about slavery the southern states had plenty of opportunities to leave when there were conflicts over the issue in 1820 and 1850. Also don't forget some in the north wanted to secede during the War of 1812 because they didn't want to go along with the war. So you see, secession was an issue apart form slavery.
It was about treason and sedition which the nefarious, scheming bastards cloaked in a lot of fancy talk.
That is your one sided view of it. Do you think the Founding Fathers could have been accused of that by the British government that controled America in 1776?
It answers the assertion that you believe the swastika and the confederate flag are comparable. The specific question you asked does not need to be answered because it was irrlevant to what the issue of the confederate flag.
In the case of the Georgia, the symbol was used by the state as a thumb in the eye of integrationists.
It was used in defiance of the federal government that was insisting that it knew better than the state. Whether you agree that the feds were right on integration the point was whether the feds should have the power to enforce its will.
Speaking AS a resident of Georgia, and as a person born in the South and who has lived here all my life, I do not WANT the Confederate flag on my state flag. Fortunately, if and when it ever comes to a vote, I will have a say about it, and jethro won't.
The states also have the right NOT to use segregationist symbols as a state emblem.
Whether the closet racists like it or not.
BTW, jethro, the federal government had nothing to do with the flag change. You should realize that there is a very large minority population in Georgia (in fact, Atlanta is predominantly Black) and there are also quite a few others of us who do not want to glorify segregatoin in any way, shape, or form. And as residents of this state, we are not unhappy with the flag change. If you are, move here so you'll have a legitimate voice--but let me tell you that if you want to live in any kind of urban area at all, you'll have to put up with integration, AND with likely being a minority as a Caucasian.
On the Confederate flag issue, I say let the people of Georgia decide. It is not my place to tell them what they can or can not have on their flag. It is a state issue.
There's no place in any society worth perpetuating for "leaders" who can't show appropriate sensitivity and decisive solutions pertaining to such profound evils as segregation and child molestation.
Saying "sorry" after getting caught being actively wrong, or wishy-washy and objectively apologetic for such ills, just doesn't cut it.
They have six different looks on that one state flag.
Why don't they just have a different one for every day of the week?
One is a Monday flag, one is a Tuesday flag...
"This whole issue is mortifying for those of us who thought Georgia was a progressive minded state."
I used to live there and I love Atlanta. I feel bad, too.
Being one of those outraged environmentalists, I very nearly didn't vote for Barnes over the Northern Perimeter issue. But I did in the end, and was as shocked as nearly everyone else that Perdue actually won.
I really hope he can figure out a way to get out of this mess without making us an international laughing stock. :(
Here is a history of Georgia state flags: http://www.sos.state.ga.us/museum/html/georgia_flag_history.html
as you can see there were quite a few. No one can argue that Georgia was not part of the Confederacy so it is part of their history. There is no reason that part of the confederate falg should not be included in the newest version.
The 'old flag' advocates are trying to make the issue that the former flag is a mark of respect for all the Confederate veterans-however, they really knew their history they would know that the Confederate battle flag was only introduced as the Georgia state flag in 1956. And the intent was a slap in the face to the civil rights movement--'segregation forever.
It was an attempt to reassert state right's. Remember slavery existed a lot longer under the American flag than it did under the confederate flag.
jethro bodine 12/11/02 10:14am
'Jim Crow' was also part of Georgia history. Should we then include the words 'No Colored Allowed' on the state flag?
It was an attempt to reassert state right's. Remember slavery existed a lot longer under the American flag than it did under the confederate flag.
Interesting that reasserting 'state's rights' was done at that time, in that way. Regardless of how long slavery existed under either flag, honoring it now is a shameful thing.
'Jim Crow' was also part of Georgia history. Should we then include the words 'No Colored Allowed' on the state flag? Did it have a symbol?
Interesting that reasserting 'state's rights' was done at that time, in that way. Regardless of how long slavery existed under either flag, honoring it now is a shameful thing. Honoring the struggle over what government entity the states or the feds is not shameful. It is a struggle that still goes on to some degree as well it should.
jethro bodine 12/11/02 10:32am
Won't disagree that states' rights vs. federal govt. has been a long standing issue, or that it is worthy of debate.
However, honoring slavery is a shabby, inexcusable way to exert states' rights.
The happy thing here is, if there IS a state referendum on the flag, I'll be able to vote in it.
And you won't.
Ciao! :)
However, honoring slavery is a shabby, inexcusable way to exert states' rights.
I think you are assuming that it honoring slavery. A knee jerk explanation, so to speak.
O.K,
Here's an interesting tie in news item.
I read a story in the Strib this morning that the Supreme Court is debating wether burning crosses falls under free speech and expression.
The Bush Admin has said they'd like to see it banned. I look at it in some ways as the same idiots who burn flags. I find both practices sick and abhorrent. I am really torn, a big part of me thinks they should ban both but a smaller part says I value free speech, even if it's stupid, vulgar, disgusting, or even racist. Interesting to see the outcome though. How do others feel ?
Here's the story.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/3525529.html
Because an amendment to the state constitution would be required to permit a voter referendum on such an issue.
Not to mention that now that the Republicans are in office, they want NOTHING to do with this issue.
Sorry, jethro. Your dreams of the South rising again will have to wait.
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/metro/politics/1211flag.html
(Does anyone else find it a tad bizarre, that I, a Southerner all my life, am opposed to the Confederate flag being reintroduced as the Georgia state flag, whereas jethro......)
(Does anyone else find it a tad bizarre, that I, a Southerner all my life, am opposed to the Confederate flag being reintroduced as the Georgia state flag, whereas jethro......)
Bizarre? How so?
I really hope he can figure out a way to get out of this mess without making us an international laughing stock. :(
hey, now that jesse's done, someone's gotta be the international laughing stock.
the Supreme Court is debating wether burning crosses falls under free speech and expression.
Of course it is. My constitutional right.
As is my right to urinate on the American flag.
And my right to take my woman to a place to have a safe abortion if she wants one and we come to a consensus.
jethro bodine 12/11/02 11:07am
Bizarre in that a) it isn't your state flag in question, b) you aren't from the South (as far as I know), and c) the typical stereotype is that it is always Southerners who cling to the dear ol' Stars & Bars.
ares 12/11/02 11:14am
Well, there is that. :)
Bizarre in that a) it isn't your state flag in question, b) you aren't from the South (as far as I know), and c) the typical stereotype is that it is always Southerners who cling to the dear ol' Stars & Bars.
I was raised in Missouri some people call that the south. As for c there are more people that support the cause of state's rights than you want to admit.
Naradar,
Sounds like someone who speaks from experience.
Now has anyone thought that maybe GW does not want war? That maybe he is rattling the sabres because he knows that if he doesn't Saddam will not comply? If the anti-war crowd had its way it would not threaten Saddam with force and the result of that would be Saddam building more weapons as he laughed about how stupid Americans are. Some liberals are just complete idiots.
Take this as you will.
AP: President Bush to order military to get smallpox vaccine within weeks, plans for emergency workers in early 2003.
"I had it in the early 60's and didn't have any reaction, so I wouldn't have any reaction now...so I want it NOW, if it's all the same to you, GDubbya. "
You're spinning this for politics, Bill.
You'll be safe from smallpox.
My sister has an antique trunk in her living room. I'm not sure where it's from, but I don't think it's Germany. Right on the front is a swastika. It's a symbol, from, I think, Norse mythology. Which makes the trunk kind of an interesting piece.
To remove it would be to deface an antique.
Still, I wince a little every time I see it.
There was a park in Miami called Swastika Park. Jewish leaders from Miami Beach wanted to have the name changed. Don't know what became of that.
"I don't know how you come to that conclusion Rick, "
I didn't come to that conclusion, I reached it a long time ago.
I'm one of the more partisan guys on this board, and I don't hit Bush like you do.
"I want it NOW, thank you."
What's not needed is panic. It's not a threat.
So Jethro, if Germany wanted to implant the "Swastika" into the upper right-hand 1/4 corner of it's flag, because after all, it's a part of their history, you would approve, right?
The confederate flag and the swastika aren't comparable and only the ignorant try. Remember this fold slavery existed a lot longer under the American flag than it did the confederate flag. And once again the Civil War was not about slavery it was about the power. Specifically, whether the federal government could impose its will on the states.
It was about treason and sedition which the nefarious, scheming bastards cloaked in a lot of fancy talk.
the Civil War was not about slavery it was about the power.
Yeah, the power to own slaves.
No it was the power to control the direction the state would take. It was about federal power grab. If it really was about slavery the southern states had plenty of opportunities to leave when there were conflicts over the issue in 1820 and 1850. Also don't forget some in the north wanted to secede during the War of 1812 because they didn't want to go along with the war. So you see, secession was an issue apart form slavery.
It was about treason and sedition which the nefarious, scheming bastards cloaked in a lot of fancy talk.
That is your one sided view of it. Do you think the Founding Fathers could have been accused of that by the British government that controled America in 1776?
No doubt. They probably said worse things.
It answers the assertion that you believe the swastika and the confederate flag are comparable. The specific question you asked does not need to be answered because it was irrlevant to what the issue of the confederate flag.
guys - The right-handed swastika is the most commonly used in world religions including Jainism, Hinduism and Buddhism.
Every Hindu temple has this symbol.
Hitler usurped this symbol and the Western association is negative.
To me, the Swastika is akin to the cross as a religious symbol.
The confederate flag is a symbol of racism - I knew this even growing up in India.
The confederate flag is a symbol of racism - I knew this even growing up in India.
Then you were poorly educated, at least on that point.
As Naradar pointed out, a symbol can be co-opted for just about anything.
Some people fly the Confederate flag like you wave a bloody shirt. To show defiance in defeat.
In the case of the Georgia, the symbol was used by the state as a thumb in the eye of integrationists.
The Confederate Stars and Bars usually is used as a method of confrontation. Often by adults who behave like adolescents.
In the case of the Georgia, the symbol was used by the state as a thumb in the eye of integrationists.
It was used in defiance of the federal government that was insisting that it knew better than the state. Whether you agree that the feds were right on integration the point was whether the feds should have the power to enforce its will.
You romanticize the Confederacy, jethro.
You romanticize the Confederacy, jethro.
you glorify unrestrained federal power. The problem is what if the feds come knocking and want you to do something you don't want to do?
Speaking AS a resident of Georgia, and as a person born in the South and who has lived here all my life, I do not WANT the Confederate flag on my state flag. Fortunately, if and when it ever comes to a vote, I will have a say about it, and jethro won't.
The states also have the right NOT to use segregationist symbols as a state emblem.
Whether the closet racists like it or not.
BTW, jethro, the federal government had nothing to do with the flag change. You should realize that there is a very large minority population in Georgia (in fact, Atlanta is predominantly Black) and there are also quite a few others of us who do not want to glorify segregatoin in any way, shape, or form. And as residents of this state, we are not unhappy with the flag change. If you are, move here so you'll have a legitimate voice--but let me tell you that if you want to live in any kind of urban area at all, you'll have to put up with integration, AND with likely being a minority as a Caucasian.
Since you believe the confederate flag is a segregationist symbol, apparently the state also has the right to use it.
You can call names all you want. But rememeber if you are a typical liberal you are just being judgemental and therefore hypocritical.
ROFLMAO!
ROFLMAO!
Something, I am sure, that would take a h*** of a long time.
Something, I am sure, that would take a h*** of a long time.
Awwww, are you trying to say I have a big ass, jethro?
Sorry to disappoint you! :)
I wouldn't know. But that is what I hear about southern girls.
You're just a bouncing little bundle of predjudices, aren't you? :)
Can you help what it is that you hear? Can you really prevent having preconceived ideas about some things?
Not that I've see L.L.'s bottom but, I've seen a picture of her, and she's a hottie!
On the Confederate flag issue, I say let the people of Georgia decide. It is not my place to tell them what they can or can not have on their flag. It is a state issue.
-- U.S. officials say Iran building two large nuclear facilities in secret that might be used to build nuclear weapons.
Can anybody see the quivering of that itchy trigger finger on GWB?
Trent Lott and Cardinal Law should both resign.
There's no place in any society worth perpetuating for "leaders"
who can't show appropriate sensitivity and decisive solutions pertaining to such profound evils as segregation and child molestation.
Saying "sorry" after getting caught being actively wrong, or wishy-washy and objectively apologetic for such ills, just doesn't cut it.
As odd as it sounds I might agree with you. Whooda' Thunk it ?
Hey, thanks, THX!
But don't spoil jethro's image of me, please.
Not a grossly obese aggressively butch lesbian pinko liberal, but I play one in jethro's fantasies.
:)
why do i get the feeling you just made yourself a new tagline there, lionness?