Over time, across the planet, more people have been brutally killed by those purporting to act in Jesus's name than by any other deliberately violent means.
Beginning with the Crusades.
On up to a succession of European wars.
Through the genocidal colonial conquests.
A chaplain blessed the Enola Gay before it dropped its fiery payload on Hiroshima.
A chapalin served the unit that committed the My Lai massacre.
A multitude of innocent blacks have been murdered by the "Christian" KKK.
From Central American contras to Lebanon's Falangist (fascist) gangs to an unabashedly Christian "army" currently engaged in terror in Nigeria, Jesus's values have been hideously twisted to include a supposed sanction for bloody repression of others.
What's worse, other Christians have often been victims of this brutality. Bishop Romero. The raped and murdered Salvadoran nuns. The Catholic exponents of liberation theology who've tried to serve the poor in Godly ways.
I know very well that there have been Christian individuals and groups who've pointed out the awful hypocrisy and evil of all this. I worked directly with many of them in coalition against the Vietnam war. Clergy and Laity, Fellowship of Reconciliation, American Friends, etc.
Plus there's been the inspiring role played by the black and progressive white church in the Civil Rights struggle.
But...
When America attacks Iraq to overthrow its government to gain access to its oil (the real reason), it'll be done with evocations of patriotism and piety.
And still more innocents will needlesly, horribly perish in furtherance of beliefs that are as much a perverse abandonment of authentic Christianity as the stark difference between a sleeping baby and a bullying thug.
now we have gone, due to Dennis, from gun control stats as experienced by those countries which have banned guns to Christians killing people - as if ANY other group hadn't done it before or since. That is not staying on topic.
Of course, he doesn't answer questions directly; he may have to open his mind and think which is much too much effort.
But for the actions of the Muslims, the Crusades never would have happened, except those in what is now Poland who were not Muslims but were pagans. This may come as a surprise to you but they did not use GUNS to kill their enemies. Proof positive that guns and having them does not automatically result in increasing death rates due to gun violence.
If you would think about it, the level of violence has actually decreased over time for most of the world. Deadly and dangerous competitions have been replaced by sporting or economic competitions which cannot be counted as death by violence. For most persons that is.
Well, I'd have to give the butler, gardener and maid the day off. Hide my stacks of gold, cash and stock options. Once I got rid of that, he couldn't tell the difference between my family and Hugo Chavez's.
Here's a fine article on the Venezuelan situation by Barry C. Lynn, who lived and worked in Caracas as an Agence France-Presse reporter:
"All of Venezuela's private television stations and national newspapers are owned by the opposition, and all are employed to deliver an unadulterated flow of anti-Chávez propaganda in the form of news, popular music, even soap operas. The distortions can be dramatic. Today's anti-Chávez march is covered by all four TV channels from five in the morning until midnight. The pro-Chávez march three days later -- though twice as large -- is ignored entirely by three of the channels, and covered only sporadically by the fourth. (The American media also played up the anti-Chávez march, inflating its turnout to a million.) ...
"... before Chávez, it would have been unthinkable for a single mother who bakes bread for a living to hold elected office in Venezuela. In the street in front of the cooperative, she wipes her hands on her apron and sighs. Even before she joined the council, she had too much to do. "But it's worth it," she says. Already, she has seen a profound change. "The Venezuelan people are not the same people they were even a few years ago," she says. 'We know our rights. And no matter what the rich do to Chávez, this is something they can never erase.' "
From domestic abuse, to street crime, to terrorism and war.
To seemingly entirely disconnected issues.
For instance, in Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine, a brilliant film which tries to find answers to why we're such a violent society, NRA head Charleton Heston is asked what he thinks makes us so bloodily contentious.
See you down at our lady of perpetual violence, don't forget your glock. The Shepard is gonna love the new .357 . Then we can head over to my house to watch CNN and hope for a war to break out. We can order some pizza...knock, knock,,,,,,,blam, blam, blam.
6:00 works best for me, I have to put in my shift down at rightwing conspiracy headquarters that day and go have my money counted. Let me know if that works for you. O.K
Ares, Wanna go ? We can all ride in a big SUV to get there too. Well that's if the butler has the limo in the shop. I told him he needs to plan that better and if he screws up my schedule one more time I'll have him deported.
See you ther Ares, you bringing the cavair or the liquor to drink before we lock and load to go see the little fella ? And don't get that crappy domestic crap, you know I can't have that, being rich my pallete will only accept the Russian stuf, prefferebly blue.
On Dec. 8th and 9th, supporters of Hugo Chavez and Venezuelan people's democracy took to the streets, surrounding radio and TV stations, to protest the indisputable fact that Venezuela's media are totally in the vest pocket of the opposition and its bogus "strike" (actually a business-led lockout) aimed at violent overthrow of a duly-elected government.
Despite independent reports that as many as two million souls participated, the action went essentially unreported both in Venezuela and, of course, the United States.
Not surprisingly, when anti-Chavez forces mustered a large counter demonstration some days later, it was given prominent media play.
Our TV told us one million "angry demonstrators" were involved.
Even if it wasn't a gross exaggeration, that still means that a much larger pro-Chavez, pro-peace action was blatantly kept from our awareness.
Can you say "disinformation"?
It'll be interesting to see how the CBS-NBC-ABC-CNN-FOX propaganda apparatus distorts and downplays today's huge marches for food and jobs in Argentina.
Oh yea, don't forget, JT likes the really expensive liquor. He can afford it you know. I'll show you my new 10K diamond studded ammo I had made. It should be a hoot. The wisemen always get a kick out of it when I bring them real gold, frankensense and mur. You know how I love mur.
Oooh that reminds me, I gotta head down to Mur Mart.
I'm a former Catholic but I don't remember anytihng about a specialized tree like that. Good thing for you and your pal she didn't have a yardstick with her you wouldn't be here today.
JT and Ares, I just checked, the limo will pick you up at your mansions at 6:30 tomorrow, I had the butler install a new gun rack in the back of the limo so we'll see you both then, don't be late either, I'm having my maid make something special for you.
Make me an angel that flies from Montgom'ry Make me a poster of an old rodeo Just give me one thing that I can hold on to To believe in this living is just a hard way to go
We should not fight a war in Iraq unless they present a clear and immediate threat. We should not risk thousands of lives to steal another country's oil. It is wrong what Bush is trying to do right now. If he succeeds America will feel the repercusions for a long time.
--Joe M Stevens, US Navy, 6 years
I was fortunate to serve between Korea and Vietnam. My brother wasn't so lucky. He came back from Vietnam in a rubber bag. My mother got his Silver Star, but that didn't replace him. How many other mothers will have to suffer at the hands of our self-righteous leaders that are oh-so-willing to send more American sons to die in a foreign land for an unjust cause? May God help the United States and all humankind.
--Larry Brophy, Army NG, 6 Years
I, my wife, 10 adult children and 26 grandchildren are grateful to you and all peacemakers. We must re-define "superpower" to mean something in which we can truly be proud...not the ability to murder, destroy and cause misery faster, bigger and better than the "other guy". We have been blessed with incredible abundance in every way. We can be a true "superpower" by leading the world in reducing poverty, starvation, homelessness and eliminating war. Ultimately, the total elimination of all "weapons of mass destruction" of which we have the most...must be eliminated from the face of our beautiful planet...and we should take the lead in that direction, the direction of sanity.
--Frank Swift, US Air Force. 1951-55
We have no real reason to invade Iraq. There is no direct threat to us from them. While it is deplorable that Hussien is in power, military action against him, because we don't like him or his policies, is immoral. We are better than that!
--Michael McElhare, USAF, 1968 -1977
President Bush should be given a B.A.R. and put on the front line to lead the troops into his war. Then, after the shooting starts, he'll realize that the damn oil isn't worth it.
--Fred Miller, US Army, 1951-1953
(Statements from veterans courtesy Veterans Against the Iraq War)
Turn your back for 5 minutes and you all are off topic AGAIN!
Dennis, of course we should not 'pre-emptive'! Why else do you think the gov is hunting about trying to find some evidence that's either clear or 'spinnable'? But THAT has nothing to do with gun control!
Domestic violence is also NOT connected with gun control or even guns themselves since it predated the invention of both gunpowder and firearms by centuries! GET A GRIP!
And you can also rid yourself of the notion that its only conservative republicans that disagree with you since I disagree with you and would NEVER vote republican or be a conservative of any kind. (shuddering at the thought).
Don't invite me over - we'd just find aomething to argue about. I would most likely think your limo was vulgar. And given modern appliances and methods, having a butler, a maid, and a gardener is overkill. One properly has a cook/housekeeper and retains a landscape service. One drives one's self but hires a car and driver if touring. There is a right way to do everything you know.
Left alone without interference, Iraq would attack no one.
America's pre-emptive, first-strike aggression to overthrow a foreign government (to facilitate acccess to oil!) will murder tens of thousands of people.
This isn't about WMD, which is just a bugbear excuse.
If it were, and our respective histories were fairly compared, the UN ought to disarm imperialist America.
By the way, did you hear about the German leak of the section of the Iraqi arms report that disclosed the British and American firms who've previously provided Saddam bio-chem military capacity?
Is VAIW a small group?
Sure.
But, like peace sentiment generally, things are in volatile shift.
Even you will one day become a "peacenik" regarding Bush militarism, Bill.
Because, gruff personna aside, you've got the right sensibilities at heart.
The impulse to settle differences by force lies at the root of both domestic violence and war.
And certainly in the facile willingness to arm ourselves against one another, with hidden hand guns, being fully prepared to shoot it out -- rather than remedially address the underlying social and economic circumstances that currently make for escalating conflict.
Going back to Michael Moore's film, Bowling for Columbine.
Moore is a NRA member, who thinks "guns are kinda neat".
Sure, for hunting, target practice, and collection.
But not as a mass, shoot-'em-up substitute for enlightened, uplifting human relations.
We've gotten to a point, by following the old paradigm, of being scared shitless about anthrax, smallpox, one country's nukes or another's, and of fearing our own fellow citizens.
What we're living through could well be a replay of the prelude to a civilization ultimately extinguishing itself on another planet, had it possibly existed.
Is that why we seem to be alone in this universe?
Because everyone else let violence get out of hand, and did themselves in?
We HAVE to believe in better possibilities, and MAKE them work.
Now, about the special circumstance relating to female "defense" in a sexist society where rape is common:
I used to walk to work early in the morning, along darkened streets and alleys.
Sometimes I'd see a women (generally hospital workers) walking the same routes, either coming or going.
Knowing that there is an overall, justified basis for females to be wary of strange males encountered in darkness -- and because the Central Hillside of Duluth had a string of rapes a few years back -- I'd always turn off, or away, just to eliminate my perceived threat.
Even if it meant walking further.
Should some women in such settings carry hand guns?
I would say yes, if a known, definite danger existed.
But there are also effective, nonlethal means by which personal protection can be pretty well assured.
But, in the final analysis, there's no substitute for a proper male respect for female rights and privacy.
Which can never be societally achieved if only a reactive response to the macho mentality is employed, as opposed to an inculcated emphasis -- from early years on up -- on how boys and men ought to properly behave.
New law makes it a crime to march in protest against Chavez, or even write about it. Prison terms range from 5 to 10 years per protester.
Desperate and with only one in ten Venezuelans supporting it,the Chavez regime has unleashed a new "Ley de Seguridad de la Nacion" on the democratic opposition in Venezuela. This "National Security Law" basically makes it a crime to be against Chavez: With dissidents being sent to prison camps for a minimum of 5 years and a maximum of 10 years.Among the "crimes" punishable by harsh sentences of five-to-ten can be found such simple acts as as participating in a protest march near a security zone, and inviting others to such protest marches.
Security zones can be any area that the Chavez regime says. Currently, there are 8 such security zones in Caracas alone, and 107 in the country. They cover airports, military bases, government buildings, even state-owned radio and TV stations.
And if a Venezuelan ever wanted to march on Miraflores, the presidential palace and also designated a "security zone", he better be a Chavez-supporter. Otherwise he is facing up to 10 years in jail.
Journalist covering protests would be deemed "instigators" and would also face stiff prison terms, a Chavez insider reported. This is a way to effectively silence critical opposition press coverage while still in theory allowing freedom of expression in Venezuela.
The same law, in its article 32, also allows the government to militarize companies, be it state-owned or private. In the case of private companies, such a militarization means that the basic human rights of the owners and the workers no longer apply. Owners are subject to what the local military boss says. And workers can not strike. If they are absent from the workplace, they will be termed military deserters and can be punished in a military tribunal for treason.
Is this what you wish upon America Dennis? That workers can be "punished in a military tribunal for treason" is they miss work? That it be made a crime to speak against the rulers of our country?
Here is some quotes from your hero that he made on his weekly TV-show "Alo Presidente" ("Hello President"):
" - Referendum to remove Chávez? That is not possible, don't waste time. I will not go in a referendum, I say that to the country and the world. It's like this: I won't go."
This was in response to the November 4 2002, attempt of members of the opposition trying to deliver boxes to the National Electorate Council containing 1.5 million signatures. The signatures all requested a referendum, just like the Constitution sets out. On their way to the Council, they were attacked by mobs of violent Chavez supporters armed with bricks, metal bars and even guns. Many ended up in hospital, but the signatures got delivered.
" - Referendum to remove Chávez? Look, that won't happen, forget about it. It won't happen."
" - Ah, no, no, forget about fairytales."
" - Not even if we suppose that they hold that referendum and get 90% of the votes, I will not leave. Forget it. I will not leave."
Yet you are too woried about a comment made by a leader of congress that was meant to lift the spirits of an old man on his birthday and nothing more to notice such abominations.
Shouldn't constitutional election times be respected in Venezuela like they are here?
You shouldn't be able to just hold an election because someone has become unpopular.
If there is a revolutionary movement afoot, steps need to be taken to keep order. So far, it appears he's matching strong-armed thuggery with strong-armed thuggery. His opponents don't look like saints, either. And that link Dan gave us appears to be a bit biased.
I'm writing off the cuff here, and I'm not as informed on this as I could be. This Chavez fellow could very well be a charlatan and fraud. I'm inclined to think so because all indicatations point to a pretty slick talker who says all the right things. Claims of his popularity among the poorer classes may be inflated as well, based on the small amount I have read. But he was elected, whether the United States likes his politics or not. I recall even the Wall Street Journal criticized the Bush adminstration for it's handling of the coup attempt last spring.
PEACE ON EARTH, MERCY MILD?
Over time, across the planet, more people have been brutally killed by those purporting to act in Jesus's name than by any other deliberately violent means.
Beginning with the Crusades.
On up to a succession of European wars.
Through the genocidal colonial conquests.
A chaplain blessed the Enola Gay before it dropped its fiery payload on Hiroshima.
A chapalin served the unit that committed the My Lai massacre.
A multitude of innocent blacks have been murdered by the "Christian" KKK.
From Central American contras to Lebanon's Falangist (fascist) gangs to an unabashedly Christian "army" currently engaged in terror in Nigeria, Jesus's values have been hideously twisted to include a supposed sanction for bloody repression of others.
What's worse, other Christians have often been victims of this brutality. Bishop Romero. The raped and murdered Salvadoran nuns. The Catholic exponents of liberation theology who've tried to serve the poor in Godly ways.
I know very well that there have been Christian individuals and groups who've pointed out the awful hypocrisy and evil of all this. I worked directly with many of them in coalition against the Vietnam war. Clergy and Laity, Fellowship of Reconciliation, American Friends, etc.
Plus there's been the inspiring role played by the black and progressive white church in the Civil Rights struggle.
But...
When America attacks Iraq to overthrow its government to gain access to its oil (the real reason), it'll be done with evocations of patriotism and piety.
And still more innocents will needlesly, horribly
perish in furtherance of beliefs that are as much a perverse abandonment of authentic Christianity as the stark difference between a sleeping baby and a bullying thug.
We need to pray...for ourselves.
Dennis,
How many people have died at the hands of socialists & communists?
i'm beginning to think dennis is like jethro. does he ever actually answer a question that's asked of him?
Sometimes, in a round about way, he'll answer a question, but not directly.
Usually you'll get an article post instead of an actual answer. Or a rant that is slightly related to the question asked.
Dennis stays on message better than anyone else here.
People can hurl all kinds of rhetoric at him, and it bounces right off.
People can hurl all kinds of rhetoric at him, and it bounces right off.
You're joking, right?
He's the king of rhetoric.
He's on message all the time. You always know where he stands.
I can't do that.
No he doesn't
now we have gone, due to Dennis, from gun control stats as experienced by those countries which have banned guns to Christians killing people - as if ANY other group hadn't done it before or since.
That is not staying on topic.
Of course, he doesn't answer questions directly; he may have to open his mind and think which is much too much effort.
But for the actions of the Muslims, the Crusades never would have happened, except those in what is now Poland who were not Muslims but were pagans. This may come as a surprise to you but they did not use GUNS to kill their enemies. Proof positive that guns and having them does not automatically result in increasing death rates due to gun violence.
If you would think about it, the level of violence has actually decreased over time for most of the world. Deadly and dangerous competitions have been replaced by sporting or economic competitions which cannot be counted as death by violence. For most persons that is.
Not to worry people. The 9th Circut Court of Appeals is the most overturned court in the land.
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/Special%20Section/The%20Olive%20Harvest/palestinian_olive_trees_sold.htm
Palestinian olive trees sold to rich Israelis...
I'd love to have Dennis over for dinner.
I'd love to show him what a typical Conservative Republican family is truly like.
Well, I'd have to give the butler, gardener and maid the day off. Hide my stacks of gold, cash and stock options. Once I got rid of that, he couldn't tell the difference between my family and Hugo Chavez's.
Hide my stacks of gold, cash and stock options.
oh come on. don't go off mixing the worthless stuff with the stuff that actually has some value :)
Me too, we'd have bread and roses.
The Dennis's and Jethro's of the world don't do well influencing policy or people,.....
Oh the Dennis's and Jethro's of the world do very well in influencing policy. You have heard of war, haven't you fold?
THX's post of the day:
"Me too, we'd have bread and roses."
oh come on. don't go off mixing the worthless stuff with the stuff that actually has some value :)
Hey, I expect my "Amalgamated Slave Holdings" to do very well in the near future.
:-)
:: snicker ::
::Almond Joy::
:: kit kat::
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/02/ma_208_01.html
Here's a fine article on the Venezuelan situation by Barry C. Lynn, who lived and worked in Caracas as an Agence France-Presse reporter:
"All of Venezuela's private television stations and national newspapers are owned by the opposition, and all are employed to deliver an unadulterated flow of anti-Chávez propaganda in the form of news, popular music, even soap operas. The distortions can be dramatic. Today's anti-Chávez march is covered by all four TV channels from five in the morning until midnight. The pro-Chávez march three days later -- though twice as large -- is ignored entirely by three of the channels, and covered only sporadically by the fourth. (The American media also played up the anti-Chávez march, inflating its turnout to a million.) ...
"... before Chávez, it would have been unthinkable for a single mother who bakes bread for a living to hold elected office in Venezuela. In the street in front of the cooperative, she wipes her hands on her apron and sighs. Even before she joined the council, she had too much to do. "But it's worth it," she says. Already, she has seen a profound change. "The Venezuelan people are not the same people they were even a few years ago," she says. 'We know our rights. And no matter what the rich do to Chávez, this is something they can never erase.' "
Does the thread topic matter at all ?
It's all related, inextricably.
From domestic abuse, to street crime, to terrorism and war.
To seemingly entirely disconnected issues.
For instance, in Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine, a brilliant film which tries to find answers to why we're such a violent society, NRA head Charleton Heston is asked what he thinks makes us so bloodily contentious.
Incredibly, "race mixing" is his reply.
Shades of Thurmond and Lott...
BTW how's Gun control working in Venezuala ?
If you all want to fixate on guns during the Christmas season, instead of something crazy and inapproprate like, say, peace...well, go ahead.
As far as that goes, head down to the nearest nativity scene.
Gaze down at the baby Jesus with a few likeminded buddies, with pistols under your parkas.
Knock yourselves out.
Yea Dennis, we're all gun crazy folks who just love a good war.
Is that an invite ?
Gaze down at the baby Jesus with a few likeminded buddies, with pistols under your parkas.
hey. i would. someone's gotta provide security for the little guy after all, what with herod putting a bounty out on him.
JT,
See you down at our lady of perpetual violence, don't forget your glock. The Shepard is gonna love the new .357 . Then we can head over to my house to watch CNN and hope for a war to break out. We can order some pizza...knock, knock,,,,,,,blam, blam, blam.
6:00 works best for me, I have to put in my shift down at rightwing conspiracy headquarters that day and go have my money counted. Let me know if that works for you. O.K
can i come too, rob?
Ares, Wanna go ? We can all ride in a big SUV to get there too. Well that's if the butler has the limo in the shop. I told him he needs to plan that better and if he screws up my schedule one more time I'll have him deported.
absolutely. but you're about a half hour late if you're gonna meet at 6. we best get moving.
See you ther Ares, you bringing the cavair or the liquor to drink before we lock and load to go see the little fella ? And don't get that crappy domestic crap, you know I can't have that, being rich my pallete will only accept the Russian stuf, prefferebly blue.
No I was thinking 6:30 tomorrow
On Dec. 8th and 9th, supporters of Hugo Chavez and Venezuelan people's democracy took to the streets, surrounding radio and TV stations, to protest the indisputable fact that Venezuela's media are totally in the vest pocket of the opposition and its bogus "strike" (actually a business-led lockout) aimed at violent overthrow of a duly-elected government.
Despite independent reports that as many as two million souls participated, the action went essentially unreported both in Venezuela and, of course, the United States.
Not surprisingly, when anti-Chavez forces mustered a large counter demonstration some days later, it was given prominent media play.
Our TV told us one million "angry demonstrators" were involved.
Even if it wasn't a gross exaggeration, that still means that a much larger pro-Chavez, pro-peace action was blatantly kept from our awareness.
Can you say "disinformation"?
It'll be interesting to see how the CBS-NBC-ABC-CNN-FOX propaganda apparatus distorts and downplays today's huge marches for food and jobs in Argentina.
roger that. i gotta run to the likker store anyway.
Oh yea, don't forget, JT likes the really expensive liquor. He can afford it you know. I'll show you my new 10K diamond studded ammo I had made. It should be a hoot. The wisemen always get a kick out of it when I bring them real gold, frankensense and mur. You know how I love mur.
Oooh that reminds me, I gotta head down to Mur Mart.
True Christmas story:
Years ago, when I was a kid, a buddy of mine
and I were walking home through an alley, behind a convent.
There, stuck in the snowbank, was a rather small Christmas tree with lots of little red things on it.
They were cotton balls wrapped in crimson paper.
Thinking it had been thrown out, and being boys, we decided to take it. We set it up in our "fort" in the loft above Dad's garage.
Not long thereafter, a truly fearsome looking nun came to our house
to reclaim the "cherry tree".
Not being Catholic, I don't know the symbolism of such a tree.
And I don't know if she followed our tracks in the snow, or whether she did Divine detectives working the case.
It was kinda spooky.
In any case, we had to relinquish our "find".
It sounds like a John Prine song lyric, but it happened.
I'm a former Catholic but I don't remember anytihng about a specialized tree like that. Good thing for you and your pal she didn't have a yardstick with her you wouldn't be here today.
Damned straight!
Have a good night.
JT and Ares, I just checked, the limo will pick you up at your mansions at 6:30 tomorrow, I had the butler install a new gun rack in the back of the limo so we'll see you both then, don't be late either, I'm having my maid make something special for you.
Make me an angel that flies from Montgom'ry
Make me a poster of an old rodeo
Just give me one thing that I can hold on to
To believe in this living is just a hard way to go
We should not fight a war in Iraq unless they present a clear and immediate threat. We should not risk thousands of lives to steal another country's oil. It is wrong what Bush is trying to do right now. If he succeeds America will feel the repercusions for a long time.
--Joe M Stevens, US Navy, 6 years
I was fortunate to serve between Korea and Vietnam. My brother wasn't so lucky. He came back from Vietnam in a rubber bag. My mother got his Silver Star, but that didn't replace him. How many other mothers will have to suffer at the hands of our self-righteous leaders that are oh-so-willing to send more American sons to die in a foreign land for an unjust cause? May God help the United States and all humankind.
--Larry Brophy, Army NG, 6 Years
I, my wife, 10 adult children and 26 grandchildren are grateful to you and all peacemakers. We must re-define "superpower" to mean something in which we can truly be proud...not the ability to murder, destroy and cause misery faster, bigger and better than the "other guy". We have been blessed with incredible abundance in every way. We can be a true "superpower" by leading the world in reducing poverty, starvation, homelessness and eliminating war. Ultimately, the total elimination of all "weapons of mass destruction" of which we have the most...must be eliminated from the face of our beautiful planet...and we should take the lead in that direction, the direction of sanity.
--Frank Swift, US Air Force. 1951-55
We have no real reason to invade Iraq. There is no direct threat to us from them. While it is deplorable that Hussien is in power, military action against him, because we don't like him or his policies, is immoral. We are better than that!
--Michael McElhare, USAF, 1968 -1977
President Bush should be given a B.A.R. and put on the front line to lead the troops into his war. Then, after the shooting starts, he'll realize that the damn oil isn't worth it.
--Fred Miller, US Army, 1951-1953
(Statements from veterans courtesy Veterans Against the Iraq War)
Oh, Lord!
Turn your back for 5 minutes and you all are off topic AGAIN!
Dennis, of course we should not 'pre-emptive'! Why else do you think the gov is hunting about trying to find some evidence that's either clear or 'spinnable'? But THAT has nothing to do with gun control!
Domestic violence is also NOT connected with gun control or even guns themselves since it predated the invention of both gunpowder and firearms by centuries! GET A GRIP!
And you can also rid yourself of the notion that its only conservative republicans that disagree with you since I disagree with you and would NEVER vote republican or be a conservative of any kind.
(shuddering at the thought).
Don't invite me over - we'd just find aomething to argue about. I would most likely think your limo was vulgar. And given modern appliances and methods, having a butler, a maid, and a gardener is overkill. One properly has a cook/housekeeper and retains a landscape service. One drives one's self but hires a car and driver if touring. There is a right way to do everything you know.
You've been abundantly disinformed, Bill.
An inescapable fact remains.
Left alone without interference, Iraq would attack no one.
America's pre-emptive, first-strike aggression to overthrow a foreign government (to facilitate acccess to oil!) will murder tens of thousands of people.
This isn't about WMD, which is just a bugbear excuse.
If it were, and our respective histories were fairly compared, the UN
ought to disarm imperialist America.
By the way, did you hear about the German leak of the section of the Iraqi arms report that disclosed the British and American firms who've previously provided Saddam bio-chem military capacity?
Is VAIW a small group?
Sure.
But, like peace sentiment generally, things are in volatile shift.
Even you will one day become a "peacenik" regarding Bush militarism, Bill.
Because, gruff personna aside, you've got the right sensibilities at heart.
Kitt, I beg to differ.
The impulse to settle differences by force lies at the root of both domestic violence and war.
And certainly in the facile willingness to arm ourselves against one another, with hidden hand guns, being fully prepared to shoot it out -- rather than remedially address the underlying social and economic circumstances that currently make for escalating conflict.
Going back to Michael Moore's film, Bowling for Columbine.
Moore is a NRA member, who thinks "guns are kinda neat".
Sure, for hunting, target practice, and collection.
But not as a mass, shoot-'em-up substitute for enlightened, uplifting human relations.
We've gotten to a point, by following the old paradigm, of being scared shitless about anthrax, smallpox, one country's nukes or another's, and of fearing our own fellow citizens.
What we're living through could well be a replay of the prelude to a civilization ultimately extinguishing itself on another planet, had it possibly existed.
Is that why we seem to be alone in this universe?
Because everyone else let violence get out of hand, and did themselves in?
We HAVE to believe in better possibilities, and MAKE them work.
It begins with taming temper and bellicosity.
Now, about the special circumstance relating to female "defense" in a sexist society where rape is common:
I used to walk to work early in the morning, along darkened streets and alleys.
Sometimes I'd see a women (generally hospital workers) walking the same routes, either coming or going.
Knowing that there is an overall, justified basis for females to be
wary of strange males encountered in darkness -- and because the
Central Hillside of Duluth had a string of rapes a few years back --
I'd always turn off, or away, just to eliminate my perceived threat.
Even if it meant walking further.
Should some women in such settings carry hand guns?
I would say yes, if a known, definite danger existed.
But there are also effective, nonlethal means by which personal protection can be pretty well assured.
But, in the final analysis, there's no substitute for a proper male
respect for female rights and privacy.
Which can never be societally achieved if only a reactive response
to the macho mentality is employed, as opposed to an inculcated emphasis -- from early years on up -- on how boys and men ought to
properly behave.
Can you say "disinformation"? Dennis on Chavez.
I sure can, however, you are on the wrong side of the arguement again.
10-year Prison Terms For Protest Marchers in Venezuela
New law makes it a crime to march in protest against Chavez, or even write about it. Prison terms range from 5 to 10 years per protester.
Desperate and with only one in ten Venezuelans supporting it,the Chavez regime has unleashed a new "Ley de Seguridad de la Nacion" on the democratic opposition in Venezuela. This "National Security Law" basically makes it a crime to be against Chavez: With dissidents being sent to prison camps for a minimum of 5 years and a maximum of 10 years.Among the "crimes" punishable by harsh sentences of five-to-ten can be found such simple acts as as participating in a protest march near a security zone, and inviting others to such protest marches.
Security zones can be any area that the Chavez regime says. Currently, there are 8 such security zones in Caracas alone, and 107 in the country. They cover airports, military bases, government buildings, even state-owned radio and TV stations.
And if a Venezuelan ever wanted to march on Miraflores, the presidential palace and also designated a "security zone", he better be a Chavez-supporter. Otherwise he is facing up to 10 years in jail.
Journalist covering protests would be deemed "instigators" and would also face stiff prison terms, a Chavez insider reported. This is a way to effectively silence critical opposition press coverage while still in theory allowing freedom of expression in Venezuela.
The same law, in its article 32, also allows the government to militarize companies, be it state-owned or private. In the case of private companies, such a militarization means that the basic human rights of the owners and the workers no longer apply. Owners are subject to what the local military boss says. And workers can not strike. If they are absent from the workplace, they will be termed military deserters and can be punished in a military tribunal for treason.
Is this what you wish upon America Dennis? That workers can be "punished in a military tribunal for treason" is they miss work? That it be made a crime to speak against the rulers of our country?
Here is some quotes from your hero that he made on his weekly TV-show "Alo Presidente" ("Hello President"):
This was in response to the November 4 2002, attempt of members of the opposition trying to deliver boxes to the National Electorate Council containing 1.5 million signatures. The signatures all requested a referendum, just like the Constitution sets out. On their way to the Council, they were attacked by mobs of violent Chavez supporters armed with bricks, metal bars and even guns. Many ended up in hospital, but the signatures got delivered.
Yet you are too woried about a comment made by a leader of congress that was meant to lift the spirits of an old man on his birthday and nothing more to notice such abominations.
Chavez is a dictator, just like his hero Castro.
Shouldn't constitutional election times be respected in Venezuela like they are here?
You shouldn't be able to just hold an election because someone has become unpopular.
If there is a revolutionary movement afoot, steps need to be taken to keep order. So far, it appears he's matching strong-armed thuggery with strong-armed thuggery. His opponents don't look like saints, either. And that link Dan gave us appears to be a bit biased.
I'm writing off the cuff here, and I'm not as informed on this as I could be. This Chavez fellow could very well be a charlatan and fraud. I'm inclined to think so because all indicatations point to a pretty slick talker who says all the right things. Claims of his popularity among the poorer classes may be inflated as well, based on the small amount I have read. But he was elected, whether the United States likes his politics or not. I recall even the Wall Street Journal criticized the Bush adminstration for it's handling of the coup attempt last spring.