the one he snuck in there at the end...'for no good reason'. Let a man talk long enough and he'll shoot himself in the foot. Let's see if he can catch on.
The point was, if the two of you were not so d*** stupid or dishonest you would understand, the only good reason for an abortion is that the life of the mother is in DANGER and I mean imminent danger.
, the only good reason for an abortion is that the life of the mother is in DANGER and I mean imminent danger.
The typical ranting of Western, Caucasian, Christian bigot of a male who is oblivious of reality anywhere else but the excessive, insular and rapacious developed world.
How about the Sub-Saharan woman who gets knocked up by the Islamic man making the rounds on his 4 wives? She already has to provide for 12 existing children. What you discard in the grabage every day can feed the whole family - and the 13th. But she does not have access to it and the 13th will mean less for the living and malnutrioned 12.
These scenarios may seem far-featched to someone like you who deliberately hides his head in the sand and is not cognizant of how 60% of the world exists.
The typical ranting of Western, Caucasian, Christian bigot of a male who is oblivious of reality anywhere else but the excessive, insular and rapacious developed world.
The typical ranting of a bigot and a liar. Work on those things and we can talk. You worthless piece of ......
The difference Naradar is that he's not trying to make it illegal in Sub Saharan Africa.
Well, little boy bush is trying to do just that. He wants to end official aid to international groups that support abortion. little boy is trying to ban funding for international family planning groups that support abortion. He wants to cut off money from the UN Fund for Population Activities (UNFPA). As a taxpayer, I want my money to go to it.
He wants to end official aid to international groups that support abortion. little boy is trying to ban funding for international family planning groups that support abortion. He wants to cut off money from the UN Fund for Population Activities (UNFPA). As a taxpayer, I want my money to go to it.
Then donate your money directly to the UN, bozo. Bush is right and the US has no need to give the money for the purposes of infanticide.
Well, little boy bush is trying to do just that. He wants to end official aid to international groups that support abortion.
Yea so. ? It's not outlawing it. The fact remains you went on your rant perhaps not realizing that Jethro can't vote in Sub-Saharan Africa. He can here.
As a taxpayer, I want my money to go to it.
If you're so concerned about it get your checkbook or visa out and give'em a call. I'm sure they'd be happy for a donation.
Lame and limp arguments. Anyone with strong beliefs will back their causes monetarily . Preaching about it borders on being patronizing.
The UN has a charter and members to represent the different governments. Influencing their policy is justifiable. However threatening to withdraw funds and go against the majority opinion of teh world body is not within the norms.
If Islamic nations decided that none of their money would go to UN programs that cater to Jewish people, the hue and cry would be deafening. Similarly if Hindu India objected to programs geared towards Christians, it would be seen as obscene.
Even within the US, cutting off flow of money to abortion providers is not legal. Medicare money for abortion is still available. Why choke off funds for the UN when it is not done within our own country??
Lame and limp arguments. Anyone with strong beliefs will back their causes monetarily . Preaching about it borders on being patronizing.
Well you would know all about that. So I'm sure a big check is on the way from Naradar payable to the U.N with abortion fund written into the comments section.
The UN has a charter and members to represent the different governments. Influencing their policy is justifiable. However threatening to withdraw funds and go against the majority opinion of teh world body is not within the norms.
It is too and you know it is. It's how policy gets changed.
Even within the US, cutting off flow of money to abortion providers is not legal. Medicare money for abortion is still available. Why choke off funds for the UN when it is not done within our own country??
Well you said it above and answered your own question really. It's legal here. Oh your're right, never mind we ought to pay for abortions in Chad, afterall it's in our constitution to fund abortions in Africa or it should be darn it. I'm sure that our founding fathers had that in mind. He's not trying to make it illegal in Africa. It's bad enough that we fund a horrid process here and are expected to do so elsewhere. Yea I know it's more compassionate to kill it, righto then, sleep well.
Ha - the perennial whine of the right wing who appear to live in mortal fear that their wives and daughters are going to be violated one day by furriners invading on behalf of the UN! That is also why they hold on to their guns!
It is not for the virulent right-wingers to decide to dismantle the UN. It is a global body – not a US one. And yes, it is a wasteful sinecure for 3rd world charlatans – but it does have a few wings that do make a global difference.
Now that American fascists do control all branches of the US government , let us see if they have the balls to dismantle the UN.
Luv2Fly 12/16/02 4:06pm- no one gave the US the mandate to use Agent Orange on innocent civilians in defense of Capitalism. Yet we did it. You are being naive and simpleminded if you think the US government always follows the wishes of its founding fathers.
When the US government refused to pay the UN dues, I sent in my family share of dues. I buy UNESCO cards and help in my own way. Am no Ted Turner to bequeath millions though.
Great, nice of you to contribute since you feel so so passionate about it. There are many just as passionate that we ought not to be funding the horrid practice of infantcide. But I'm glad your money could go towards killing some future humans, Have a nice day.
Ha - the perennial whine of the right wing who appear to live in mortal fear that their wives and daughters are going to be violated one day by furriners invading on behalf of the UN! That is also why they hold on to their guns!
Will the insanity ever cease? No wonder there are so many problems in Naradar's native region they may all be insane.
It is not for the virulent right-wingers to decide to dismantle the UN. It is a global body – not a US one. And yes, it is a wasteful sinecure for 3rd world charlatans – but it does have a few wings that do make a global difference. If the US stops funding the UN there would be no UN.
When the US government refused to pay the UN dues, I sent in my family share of dues. I buy UNESCO cards and help in my own way. Am no Ted Turner to bequeath millions though. Obviously you are part of the problem and not the solution.
If we go gung ho into Iraq and try to decimate so dumb insane and his military, there are bound to be children and babies dying.
Why is it such collateral damage of babies does not stir the emotions, the righteous indignation of guys like jethro who rant and rave and froth at the mouth against abortion??
The trimester ruling is the only one possible as it balances ALL views and all the competing 'rights' of ALL parties. Since SHE is the one who will have to pay the penalty, SHE is the one, the ONLY one, to make the decision.
A United Nations regional conference on population issues closed contentiously today, with Asian nations overwhelmingly rejecting efforts by the Bush administration to insert anti-abortion provisions into an international agreement on family planning.
heh, heh - isolated, lonely and against the grain of rational human thought
Today the American delegation's attempts to change portions of the Cairo agreement were rejected by votes of 31 to 1 and 32 to 1. It also unsuccessfully attempted to have a strongly worded "general reservation" denouncing abortion added to the conference's final plan for action.
And what exactly were litle boy bush and his Talibanis foaming at the mouth about??
The seven-day Asian and Pacific Population Conference was almost completely consumed by an often acrimonious debate pitting the American delegation against Asian countries over abortion, sex education and methods of birth control, participants said.
. Since SHE is the one who will have to pay the penalty, SHE is the one, the ONLY one, to make the decision.
would concur if conception is due to violent or coerced means. However, if a caring male sperm provider is involved, his input should also influence the decision making process.
Why is it such collateral damage of babies does not stir the emotions, the righteous indignation of guys like jethro who rant and rave and froth at the mouth against abortion??
It is unfortunate that the madman will hide behind children. But the danger is so great that we must take Saddam out. The anger should be directed at him for using children to save himself.
The trimester ruling is the only one possible as it balances ALL views and all the competing 'rights' of ALL parties. Since SHE is the one who will have to pay the penalty, SHE is the one, the ONLY one, to make the decision.
Utter nonsense. It certainly doesn't balance the life of the unborn child, which is human and which has began its journey of life. Abortion just ends that life's journey prematurely. SHE needs to take responsibility for the life she created instead of turning her back on it. Such an act is the definition of selfishness and is totally heartless.
By aborting the child SHE has damned herself for all eternity SO which do you think is worse? Damning yourself for all eternity or simply dying before you are born and therefore know nothing about it? Will you THINK for once? Would you prefer DAMNATION to DEATH? Most likely not. So my argument stands and the trimester system remains the best compromise. And YES it does consider the unborn child's 'rights' (in quotes because they do not have responsibilities and you cannot have the ne without the other) - as the child approaches birth, his or her 'rights' increase (as do those of the state) as those of the woman decrease.
Most likely Naradar, they saw Bush's position as just another temporary fundamentalist policy being imposed upon others and most likely will be changed in another 2 years or so.
By aborting the child SHE has damned herself for all eternity SO which do you think is worse? Damning yourself for all eternity or simply dying before you are born and therefore know nothing about it? I don't know why you compare the two. The comparison accomplishes nothing.Will you THINK for once? I think plenty. Just because you don't like the conclusions that I reach does not mean that I am not thinking.Would you prefer DAMNATION to DEATH? Again we are talking about the damnation of one entity but the death of another. It is not either/or.Most likely not. So my argument stands and the trimester system remains the best compromise. Your argument stands as an example of specious logic.And YES it does consider the unborn child's 'rights' (in quotes because they do not have responsibilities and you cannot have the one without the other) - as the child approaches birth, his or her 'rights' increase (as do those of the state) as those of the woman decrease. What responsibility does a new born have? A child really can't have any responsibility until it can understand the consequences of its actions. Another example of your specious logic, kit.
that there are worse things than death, jethro. Especially since that will eventually happen anyway.
You seem so totally committed to this 'life at ANY price' mode that I wonder if you ever consider anything other than simple corporal existence as being at all important.
My belief is that until the child is born, it has no rights at all. But there are those, such as yourself, who believe that a fetus has full rights equal to those of its mother. Hence the compromise position. And no one expects humans to be entirely logical. Witness killing to save unborn fetuses and saying you were preserving life.
You seem so totally committed to this 'life at ANY price' mode that I wonder if you ever consider anything other than simple corporal existence as being at all important. The point has always been that abortion ends a human life. It goes to the morality of the act which is separate issue from simple existence.
My belief is that until the child is born, it has no rights at all. You can say that. It shows your lack of heart and thoughtlessness.But there are those, such as yourself, who believe that a fetus has full rights equal to those of its mother. The only right at issue is the right to life. What I say is that the unborn child is a human being and it should not be a right to unilaterally decide to end that life.Hence the compromise position. And no one expects humans to be entirely logical. Witness killing to save unborn fetuses and saying you were preserving life. You are WACKO!
death comes to us all, yes, I did notice how you avoided answering my question, and since death will be our lot, death in itself CEASES to be the issue. All humans will die. Period. So, given that, we can move on to discuss whether mere corporal being is more inportant than a human's total existence. Morality, as given by the church and the Bible, we can debate THAT as much of the Bible depicts acts, ordained by god, that are horribly immoral. Being willing to kill your son is okay but do not touch the unborn fetus! Yeah. Right.
And no I am not wacko. That is exactly what those PRO-LIFE people who go and shoot people say. No it is not propaganda, they have not only admitted it but they have gloried in the aura of righteousness having killed to save lives.
But we have been through all of this before, many times. I next expect to see you sighting prenant women in your crosshairs, guy, to prevent them from entering a clinic - to save lives, of course.
Speaking of chapped hides, this obsession with and glorification of the fetus is starting to rub mine raw. What the fuck? There's starving, sick, uninsured, abused children all over this country who could use money and attention, but religious zealots and other conservatives prefer to waste their energies treating the uterus as a sacred temple.
It's the easy way out, the lazy way to pretend to care about children. After all, a fetus doesn't do anything or demand anything, unlike born kids. Conservatives can just visualize the unborn as some sort of miraculous ideal, a sort of abstract thing that doesn't require them to get their hands dirty and allows them to portray the women that scare them as murderous sluts.
Well, I'm not fooled. Pro life zealots are evil, worthless bastards who don't give a flying fuck on a rolling donut about the problems of children and families, and they clearly have a messed up antiquated, fearful attitude towards sex. Ohhhh suuure, it's easy to champion the rights of a glob of cells that can't talk back, protest, or even have a sentient awareness of what you're doing, but it actually takes a heart and some values to face AIDS stricken children, the scarred victims of rape and incest, and kids who have been molested and beaten.
Typical example of liberal hatred. I wonder, how such a person can live with themselves? It is really quite despicable.
and let me guess, jethro, you'd know that someone named andromeda wrote that because someone named william henry harrison went around reading somewhere? that is who you're masquerading as these days isn't it?
I'm very disappointed in you, Willie. Taking my post from another thread and dropping it into the middle of a debate clearly dominated by people who disagree with me. I guess it's the easy road to getting affirmation and a pat on the back for your own opinions. I'm sticking with my beliefs, and while you might not approve of them, this tactic was a little smarmy.
But, instead of posting your thoughts from this thread somewhere else and mocking you, I'll answer your question right here. What have I done for children?
I used to work at a public library. There, I participated in children's story hours, read to the children, tutored children with learning disabilities, and initiated a food drive in conjunction with a local church (despite being a liberal atheist, believe it or not), that involved erasing patron fines in exchange for the poor families in the community. I also donate clothes and toys to children around the holidays.
I'm sure my dressing up for Harry Potter parties, assisting in library card sign up drives for poor children who might not otherwise enter the library, and trying to help feed some families won't be too impressive, since all these actions are coming from a "hateful, angry baby-butchering liberal" like myself. I am not a saint, and I never will be, and the things I do don't make me any better than anyone else and are just a small drop in the pond.
Shake your heads all you like. Believe you have some right to sit on a lofty ivory tower and pass judgements on the uses of a woman's uterus. Debate the issue all you want, but you could show a little restraint when it comes to slamming someone's character and getting personal to further your side of the argument.
And when I see the Right to Lifers demonstrating outside of a known sex offender's home, or blowing spittle in HIS face as he goes into court, then I'll believe they actually give a rat's ass about protecting children.
However, they prefer to confine their demonstrations and spittle blowing to abortion clinics and the women trying to exercise their legal rights therein, so they can kiss MY ass.
Abortion is not a good thing -- I've helped plenty of friends deal with the decision, and it's never something people pursue because it's a load of laughs. Plus, it's a physically painful experience despite the local anaestesia, and remains phsically painful typically for a few days afterwards. Like I said, it's not something taken lightly, nor is it something easily forgotten.
Oh my God, its painful. Maybe you can imagine that it is painful for the child that is aborted.
If pro-life advocates were truly interested in making people appreciate life, they would appreciate that the women who have abortions have lives as well, and lives that pro-lifers should want to save. But they don't try to save those women -- and why don't they?
Sterotypical nonsense. It is alot easier to make someone the bad guy than to deal with the real issue which is dismembering a child limb from limb.
Besides, when I've talked to several right to lifers about the lack of compassion for women who do seek abortions, I've heard 'well, she went and got herself pregnant' more times than I can count.
Not sure whether this means they believe in immaculate conception or that men have no responsibility for impregnating women, but in either case it makes it pretty clear that they are bent on punishing the women in question.
"Better a wimp than someone who belongs to a party of thief blowers, corporate rimmers, frauds, and heartless biased bastards."
"Sure, send some Repig fucker down in a blaze of glory and you can have your "equal time", you worthless pieces of shit. I swear I may never vote for a Republican ever, thanks to this kind of crap. Compassionate conservatives, my right butt cheek!!"
"You must be a loud talker to overcome those blowhards! I think Repigs are so damn loud out of fear someone will disagree with them and be RIGHT."
"On second thought, I don't admire them and hope they all roast in the fires of political hell. Our party has to bring lawyers to elections so repug thugs don't harrass people away from the polls or steal another election? This does not reflect poorly on us, but on the infuriating scare tactics of the GOPigs."
"And a reminder that there are numerous repugs out there who are illiterate, paranoid, and completely unable to dispute arguments with anything resembling the truth."
"A quarter of a million men and women? For oil? I suppose in the new Bu$h economy, this exchange might be fair. Worship a fetus. Fuck over a soldier. Pro-life. Pro-war. Yeah, I see the logic."
"I don't necessarily want the Democrats to act like Republicans. I am not sure that Republicans even look at their opponents as human beings."
"Human beings want to fuck. Why does this squick the Repig puritans so much? It's been my observation that the more shameful and dirty you make sex seem to a teenager, the more they'll want to do it."
" Cunts like this woman are an embarrassment to my gender. If they cared so god damn much about women and their safety, they'd be working to give women control over their own bodies instead of criminalizing that control. "
"I'll keep going. Compassionate conservatives are compassionate right up until they might have to get their hands dirty helping the people they supposedly care about. After all, poverty, misfortune, and helplessness might be contagious, and no good conservative or fundie wants to catch any of those. Since they don't have to live the very difficult lives of the people they make moral judgements on, it's very easy for them to condemn them and legislate against them."
and some wonder why compromise is so difficult?!?! Jethro blithely tosses aside legitimate and pertinent observations and questions and then hides behind a fetus/unborn child/unborn baby. BTW jethro if birth wasn't so important then why the continued use of the word 'unborn'when we have the technically correct word 'fetus'? Hmmmmmmmm? That separation is essential. Are you born yet or is your mama taking you to college?
"What a despicable, cowardly thing to do - grabbing a post from somewhere else and putting it in here. ... You can spout your hateful opinions all you want - having no credibility and no power."
the one he snuck in there at the end...'for no good reason'. Let a man talk long enough and he'll shoot himself in the foot. Let's see if he can catch on.
"If it ain't broke, you're not trying!"
The point was, if the two of you were not so d*** stupid or dishonest you would understand, the only good reason for an abortion is that the life of the mother is in DANGER and I mean imminent danger.
, the only good reason for an abortion is that the life of the mother is in DANGER and I mean imminent danger.
The typical ranting of Western, Caucasian, Christian bigot of a male who is oblivious of reality anywhere else but the excessive, insular and rapacious developed world.
How about the Sub-Saharan woman who gets knocked up by the Islamic man making the rounds on his 4 wives? She already has to provide for 12 existing children. What you discard in the grabage every day can feed the whole family - and the 13th. But she does not have access to it and the 13th will mean less for the living and malnutrioned 12.
These scenarios may seem far-featched to someone like you who deliberately hides his head in the sand and is not cognizant of how 60% of the world exists.
The typical ranting of Western, Caucasian, Christian bigot of a male who is oblivious of reality anywhere else but the excessive, insular and rapacious developed world.
The typical ranting of a bigot and a liar. Work on those things and we can talk. You worthless piece of ......
The difference Naradar is that he's not trying to make it illegal in Sub Saharan Africa.
The difference Naradar is that he's not trying to make it illegal in Sub Saharan Africa.
Well, little boy bush is trying to do just that. He wants to end official aid to international groups that support abortion. little boy is trying to ban funding for international family planning groups that support abortion. He wants to cut off money from the UN Fund for Population Activities (UNFPA). As a taxpayer, I want my money to go to it.
He wants to end official aid to international groups that support abortion. little boy is trying to ban funding for international family planning groups that support abortion. He wants to cut off money from the UN Fund for Population Activities (UNFPA). As a taxpayer, I want my money to go to it.
Then donate your money directly to the UN, bozo. Bush is right and the US has no need to give the money for the purposes of infanticide.
Naradar
Yea so. ? It's not outlawing it. The fact remains you went on your rant perhaps not realizing that Jethro can't vote in Sub-Saharan Africa. He can here.
If you're so concerned about it get your checkbook or visa out and give'em a call. I'm sure they'd be happy for a donation.
Lame and limp arguments. Anyone with strong beliefs will back their causes monetarily . Preaching about it borders on being patronizing.
The UN has a charter and members to represent the different governments. Influencing their policy is justifiable. However threatening to withdraw funds and go against the majority opinion of teh world body is not within the norms.
If Islamic nations decided that none of their money would go to UN programs that cater to Jewish people, the hue and cry would be deafening. Similarly if Hindu India objected to programs geared towards Christians, it would be seen as obscene.
Even within the US, cutting off flow of money to abortion providers is not legal. Medicare money for abortion is still available. Why choke off funds for the UN when it is not done within our own country??
I say dismantle the UN.
Naradar,
Well you would know all about that. So I'm sure a big check is on the way from Naradar payable to the U.N with abortion fund written into the comments section.
It is too and you know it is. It's how policy gets changed.
Well you said it above and answered your own question really. It's legal here. Oh your're right, never mind we ought to pay for abortions in Chad, afterall it's in our constitution to fund abortions in Africa or it should be darn it. I'm sure that our founding fathers had that in mind. He's not trying to make it illegal in Africa. It's bad enough that we fund a horrid process here and are expected to do so elsewhere. Yea I know it's more compassionate to kill it, righto then, sleep well.
Sent your check yet Naradar ?
I say dismantle the UN.
Ha - the perennial whine of the right wing who appear to live in mortal fear that their wives and daughters are going to be violated one day by furriners invading on behalf of the UN! That is also why they hold on to their guns!
It is not for the virulent right-wingers to decide to dismantle the UN. It is a global body – not a US one. And yes, it is a wasteful sinecure for 3rd world charlatans – but it does have a few wings that do make a global difference.
Now that American fascists do control all branches of the US government , let us see if they have the balls to dismantle the UN.
Luv2Fly 12/16/02 4:06pm- no one gave the US the mandate to use Agent Orange on innocent civilians in defense of Capitalism. Yet we did it. You are being naive and simpleminded if you think the US government always follows the wishes of its founding fathers.
When the US government refused to pay the UN dues, I sent in my family share of dues. I buy UNESCO cards and help in my own way. Am no Ted Turner to bequeath millions though.
Naradar,
Great, nice of you to contribute since you feel so so passionate about it. There are many just as passionate that we ought not to be funding the horrid practice of infantcide. But I'm glad your money could go towards killing some future humans, Have a nice day.
Ha - the perennial whine of the right wing who appear to live in mortal fear that their wives and daughters are going to be violated one day by furriners invading on behalf of the UN! That is also why they hold on to their guns!
Will the insanity ever cease? No wonder there are so many problems in Naradar's native region they may all be insane.
It is not for the virulent right-wingers to decide to dismantle the UN. It is a global body – not a US one. And yes, it is a wasteful sinecure for 3rd world charlatans – but it does have a few wings that do make a global difference. If the US stops funding the UN there would be no UN.
When the US government refused to pay the UN dues, I sent in my family share of dues. I buy UNESCO cards and help in my own way. Am no Ted Turner to bequeath millions though. Obviously you are part of the problem and not the solution.
If we go gung ho into Iraq and try to decimate so dumb insane and his military, there are bound to be children and babies dying.
Why is it such collateral damage of babies does not stir the emotions, the righteous indignation of guys like jethro who rant and rave and froth at the mouth against abortion??
The trimester ruling is the only one possible as it balances ALL views and all the competing 'rights' of ALL parties. Since SHE is the one who will have to pay the penalty, SHE is the one, the ONLY one, to make the decision.
Wonderful news from NYT
A United Nations regional conference on population issues closed contentiously today, with Asian nations overwhelmingly rejecting efforts by the Bush administration to insert anti-abortion provisions into an international agreement on family planning.
heh, heh - isolated, lonely and against the grain of rational human thought
Today the American delegation's attempts to change portions of the Cairo agreement were rejected by votes of 31 to 1 and 32 to 1. It also unsuccessfully attempted to have a strongly worded "general reservation" denouncing abortion added to the conference's final plan for action.
And what exactly were litle boy bush and his Talibanis foaming at the mouth about??
The seven-day Asian and Pacific Population Conference was almost completely consumed by an often acrimonious debate pitting the American delegation against Asian countries over abortion, sex education and methods of birth control, participants said.
. Since SHE is the one who will have to pay the penalty, SHE is the one, the ONLY one, to make the decision.
would concur if conception is due to violent or coerced means. However, if a caring male sperm provider is involved, his input should also influence the decision making process.
Why is it such collateral damage of babies does not stir the emotions, the righteous indignation of guys like jethro who rant and rave and froth at the mouth against abortion??
It is unfortunate that the madman will hide behind children. But the danger is so great that we must take Saddam out. The anger should be directed at him for using children to save himself.
The trimester ruling is the only one possible as it balances ALL views and all the competing 'rights' of ALL parties. Since SHE is the one who will have to pay the penalty, SHE is the one, the ONLY one, to make the decision.
Utter nonsense. It certainly doesn't balance the life of the unborn child, which is human and which has began its journey of life. Abortion just ends that life's journey prematurely. SHE needs to take responsibility for the life she created instead of turning her back on it. Such an act is the definition of selfishness and is totally heartless.
Don't worry about it Naradar there's one other guy in Wisconsin who thinks like you, that makes two ! So see, you're really not alone.
By aborting the child SHE has damned herself for all eternity SO which do you think is worse? Damning yourself for all eternity or simply dying before you are born and therefore know nothing about it?
Will you THINK for once? Would you prefer DAMNATION to DEATH? Most likely not. So my argument stands and the trimester system remains the best compromise. And YES it does consider the unborn child's 'rights' (in quotes because they do not have responsibilities and you cannot have the ne without the other) - as the child approaches birth, his or her 'rights' increase (as do those of the state) as those of the woman decrease.
Most likely Naradar, they saw Bush's position as just another temporary fundamentalist policy being imposed upon others and most likely will be changed in another 2 years or so.
By aborting the child SHE has damned herself for all eternity SO which do you think is worse? Damning yourself for all eternity or simply dying before you are born and therefore know nothing about it? I don't know why you compare the two. The comparison accomplishes nothing.Will you THINK for once? I think plenty. Just because you don't like the conclusions that I reach does not mean that I am not thinking.Would you prefer DAMNATION to DEATH? Again we are talking about the damnation of one entity but the death of another. It is not either/or.Most likely not. So my argument stands and the trimester system remains the best compromise. Your argument stands as an example of specious logic.And YES it does consider the unborn child's 'rights' (in quotes because they do not have responsibilities and you cannot have the one without the other) - as the child approaches birth, his or her 'rights' increase (as do those of the state) as those of the woman decrease. What responsibility does a new born have? A child really can't have any responsibility until it can understand the consequences of its actions. Another example of your specious logic, kit.
that there are worse things than death, jethro. Especially since that will eventually happen anyway.
You seem so totally committed to this 'life at ANY price' mode that I wonder if you ever consider anything other than simple corporal existence as being at all important.
My belief is that until the child is born, it has no rights at all. But there are those, such as yourself, who believe that a fetus has full rights equal to those of its mother. Hence the compromise position. And no one expects humans to be entirely logical. Witness killing to save unborn fetuses and saying you were preserving life.
You seem so totally committed to this 'life at ANY price' mode that I wonder if you ever consider anything other than simple corporal existence as being at all important. The point has always been that abortion ends a human life. It goes to the morality of the act which is separate issue from simple existence.
My belief is that until the child is born, it has no rights at all. You can say that. It shows your lack of heart and thoughtlessness.But there are those, such as yourself, who believe that a fetus has full rights equal to those of its mother. The only right at issue is the right to life. What I say is that the unborn child is a human being and it should not be a right to unilaterally decide to end that life.Hence the compromise position. And no one expects humans to be entirely logical. Witness killing to save unborn fetuses and saying you were preserving life. You are WACKO!
death comes to us all, yes, I did notice how you avoided answering my question, and since death will be our lot, death in itself CEASES to be the issue. All humans will die. Period. So, given that, we can move on to discuss whether mere corporal being is more inportant than a human's total existence. Morality, as given by the church and the Bible, we can debate THAT as much of the Bible depicts acts, ordained by god, that are horribly immoral. Being willing to kill your son is okay but do not touch the unborn fetus! Yeah. Right.
And no I am not wacko. That is exactly what those PRO-LIFE people who go and shoot people say. No it is not propaganda, they have not only admitted it but they have gloried in the aura of righteousness having killed to save lives.
But we have been through all of this before, many times. I next expect to see you sighting prenant women in your crosshairs, guy, to prevent them from entering a clinic - to save lives, of course.
You are dishonest. That is why there is no point discussing such matters with people like you.
Speaking of chapped hides, this obsession with and glorification of the fetus is starting to rub mine raw. What the fuck? There's starving, sick, uninsured, abused children all over this country who could use money and attention, but religious zealots and other conservatives prefer to waste their energies treating the uterus as a sacred temple.
It's the easy way out, the lazy way to pretend to care about children. After all, a fetus doesn't do anything or demand anything, unlike born kids. Conservatives can just visualize the unborn as some sort of miraculous ideal, a sort of abstract thing that doesn't require them to get their hands dirty and allows them to portray the women that scare them as murderous sluts.
Well, I'm not fooled. Pro life zealots are evil, worthless bastards who don't give a flying fuck on a rolling donut about the problems of children and families, and they clearly have a messed up antiquated, fearful attitude towards sex. Ohhhh suuure, it's easy to champion the rights of a glob of cells that can't talk back, protest, or even have a sentient awareness of what you're doing, but it actually takes a heart and some values to face AIDS stricken children, the scarred victims of rape and incest, and kids who have been molested and beaten.
Typical example of liberal hatred. I wonder, how such a person can live with themselves? It is really quite despicable.
I wonder what this person has done for children?
::Shakes head::
Someone that ignorant or angry won't ever understand anyway.
and let me guess, jethro, you'd know that someone named andromeda wrote that because someone named william henry harrison went around reading somewhere? that is who you're masquerading as these days isn't it?
I'm very disappointed in you, Willie. Taking my post from another thread and dropping it into the middle of a debate clearly dominated by people who disagree with me. I guess it's the easy road to getting affirmation and a pat on the back for your own opinions. I'm sticking with my beliefs, and while you might not approve of them, this tactic was a little smarmy.
But, instead of posting your thoughts from this thread somewhere else and mocking you, I'll answer your question right here. What have I done for children?
I used to work at a public library. There, I participated in children's story hours, read to the children, tutored children with learning disabilities, and initiated a food drive in conjunction with a local church (despite being a liberal atheist, believe it or not), that involved erasing patron fines in exchange for the poor families in the community. I also donate clothes and toys to children around the holidays.
I'm sure my dressing up for Harry Potter parties, assisting in library card sign up drives for poor children who might not otherwise enter the library, and trying to help feed some families won't be too impressive, since all these actions are coming from a "hateful, angry baby-butchering liberal" like myself. I am not a saint, and I never will be, and the things I do don't make me any better than anyone else and are just a small drop in the pond.
Shake your heads all you like. Believe you have some right to sit on a lofty ivory tower and pass judgements on the uses of a woman's uterus. Debate the issue all you want, but you could show a little restraint when it comes to slamming someone's character and getting personal to further your side of the argument.
And when I see the Right to Lifers demonstrating outside of a known sex offender's home, or blowing spittle in HIS face as he goes into court, then I'll believe they actually give a rat's ass about protecting children.
However, they prefer to confine their demonstrations and spittle blowing to abortion clinics and the women trying to exercise their legal rights therein, so they can kiss MY ass.
Stupid, idiotic drivel by a complete moron.
Abortion is not a good thing -- I've helped plenty of friends deal with the decision, and it's never something people pursue because it's a load of laughs. Plus, it's a physically painful experience despite the local anaestesia, and remains phsically painful typically for a few days afterwards. Like I said, it's not something taken lightly, nor is it something easily forgotten.
Oh my God, its painful. Maybe you can imagine that it is painful for the child that is aborted.
If pro-life advocates were truly interested in making people appreciate life, they would appreciate that the women who have abortions have lives as well, and lives that pro-lifers should want to save. But they don't try to save those women -- and why don't they?
Sterotypical nonsense. It is alot easier to make someone the bad guy than to deal with the real issue which is dismembering a child limb from limb.
Compassion measured in $$$$$. I am not surprised.
Stupid, idiotic drivel by a complete moron.
Oh, and did I mention YOU can kiss my ass, jethro, or Chester, or Benjamin, or whatever you are calling yourself these days? :)
I didn't ask that question someone else did.
Oh, and did I mention YOU can kiss my ass, jethro, or Chester, or Benjamin, or whatever you are calling yourself these days? :)
If you want to take credit for stupid, idiotic drivel that you wrote that is fine. I think I left the name of the author off the post.
jethro bodine 12/20/02 2:12pm
You really are a hateful little person.
I always 'take credit' for my opinions.
And I don't give a damn about yours.
Rob, THX, Bill, Rick, all, sorry for the intrusion. See you in other threads!
Or you could say the same about people that commit murder or rape.
Besides, when I've talked to several right to lifers about the lack of compassion for women who do seek abortions, I've heard 'well, she went and got herself pregnant' more times than I can count.
Not sure whether this means they believe in immaculate conception or that men have no responsibility for impregnating women, but in either case it makes it pretty clear that they are bent on punishing the women in question.
And you are bent on punishing the unbon child.
"Better a wimp than someone who belongs to a party of thief blowers, corporate rimmers, frauds, and heartless biased bastards."
"Sure, send some Repig fucker down in a blaze of glory and you can have your "equal time", you worthless pieces of shit. I swear I may never vote for a Republican ever, thanks to this kind of crap. Compassionate conservatives, my right butt cheek!!"
"You must be a loud talker to overcome those blowhards! I think Repigs are so damn loud out of fear someone will disagree with them and be RIGHT."
"On second thought, I don't admire them and hope they all roast in the fires of political hell. Our party has to bring lawyers to elections so repug thugs don't harrass people away from the polls or steal another election? This does not reflect poorly on us, but on the infuriating scare tactics of the GOPigs."
"And a reminder that there are numerous repugs out there who are illiterate, paranoid, and completely unable to dispute arguments with anything resembling the truth."
"A quarter of a million men and women? For oil? I suppose in the new Bu$h economy, this exchange might be fair. Worship a fetus. Fuck over a soldier. Pro-life. Pro-war. Yeah, I see the logic."
"I don't necessarily want the Democrats to act like Republicans. I am not sure that Republicans even look at their opponents as human beings."
"Human beings want to fuck. Why does this squick the Repig puritans so much? It's been my observation that the more shameful and dirty you make sex seem to a teenager, the more they'll want to do it."
" Cunts like this woman are an embarrassment to my gender. If they cared so god damn much about women and their safety, they'd be working to give women control over their own bodies instead of criminalizing that control. "
"I'll keep going. Compassionate conservatives are compassionate right up until they might have to get their hands dirty helping the people they supposedly care about. After all, poverty, misfortune, and helplessness might be contagious, and no good conservative or fundie wants to catch any of those. Since they don't have to live the very difficult lives of the people they make moral judgements on, it's very easy for them to condemn them and legislate against them."
jethro bodine 12/20/02 2:11pm
What a despicable, cowardly thing to do - grabbing a post from somewhere else and putting it in here.
You seem to think you are the only one who deserves a choiceabout anything, eh?
You can spout your hateful opinions all you want - having no credibility and no power.
and some wonder why compromise is so difficult?!?! Jethro blithely tosses aside legitimate and pertinent observations and questions and then hides behind a fetus/unborn child/unborn baby. BTW jethro if birth wasn't so important then why the continued use of the word 'unborn'when we have the technically correct word 'fetus'? Hmmmmmmmm? That separation is essential. Are you born yet or is your mama taking you to college?
"I always 'take credit' for my opinions."
L. Lionne 12/20/02 2:16pm
Your lack of concern for the unborn hardly entitles you to "credit".
"What a despicable, cowardly thing to do - grabbing a post from somewhere else and putting it in here. ... You can spout your hateful opinions all you want - having no credibility and no power."
CA 12/20/02 7:51pm
It never ceases to amaze me how irrational and violent some people become when others speak about how wrong it is to kill an unborn child.
Are you PROUD that you have the "power" (as well as legal right) to kill a completely defenseless and innocent unborn child?
St. Nick 12/20/02 9:00pm
F Nick, reread - talking mostly about the ethics of copying posts.
Yes, I am as a matter of fact proud that I fought for the Right to Choose...your assumption that that always means abortion is inaccurate.
Shock value is the grist of all America media – so I have just perpetuated a very American value system.
I suppose one can match this with gruesome pictures of aborted fetsuses. But then, all surgical procedures are butcheresque.
We can all pontificate with insouciant panache in this season of excess. Would the child above be better off not being born??
Jethro and the merry one should ponder this.