In reality, it seems like a delicate balance. If you say "you look really good" or "I love you", or something like that, it may start to seem like an automated thing. You say it and it begins to lose it's power in a sense. People may start to think you're saying it to appease a person, not because you mean it. If you don't say it enough, then people may start to wonder if either there's an ulterior motive behind it, or if it means they weren't as good before.
OH CM- a really cool idea would be to get her the same flowers that were in her bouquet when you married. Just the thought that you would recall them or take the time and unselfishness to find out should make her feel good. I would just melt if Mark ever brought me sweet peasor forget-me-nots. I had roses too in mine but it was the meaning behind the others that made our wedding unique to us. and giving her apart of your genuine thought of her should mean a lot of smiles and good feelings :)
I don't like giving out empty compliments and I hate it even more when I'm expected to say something nice just for the sake of saying it. If I'm going to compliment someone, it's going to be either because something happened that made me consciously aware of how much they deserve the compliment, or quite possibly because something like Valentine's Day comes along and gets me thinking along those lines and reminds me of how remarkable someone might be. Although in that case I'lll generally make an effort to make the compliment sound as genuine and personal as possible rather than relying on some cliche. But then again it helps when you're a good writer and I don't think it would be fair for women to expect all guys to do that as some people just don't express their feelings well.
I disagree a bit in that Kids- that if you actually mean it when you say it and it doesn't sound repetitive than it empowers your relationship. and also when you say it- if you always say it when you go to work or at the end of a phone conversation -that can be boring- but when you say it as your actually falling asleep, already rolled over with your eyes closed and its soft with your last breath OR when she's making dinner and you come up behind her,cuddling your strong arms around her body and whisper it in her ear--- thats the difference. That comes into play with men and women being Venus and Mars and no romance and romance.
You can take something that is so repetitious and make it feel very different and special. Even sometimes when you don't feel like saying nice things sometimes may be when they are needed to be said more! Couple get into a 'comfort zone' that can get them into a bad rut. You sometimes need to take an initiative and spice your love up a bit. That 'comfort zone' is laziness in a relationship- yeah you feel confortable enough to act yourself- no problem but it can turn your lovelife upsidedown if your not paying attention- this is where that 'looking' can burn you cause during this 'comfort zone' you feel like you don't have to tell the person you love how much you love them-they should just know it cause you've already said it before. WRONG! never enough
Me2, I meant that it could be that. I think a big key is variety. Variety in your responses. What you say, when you say it, how you say it, etc. It's like you telling CM what to get his wife for Valentines Day. The flowers from their wedding is a good idea. But do that year after year, it would lose it's flavor somewhat I think. There are so many things in our lives that have meaning. I try to find something special, something appropriate, something somewhat fresh and unexpected.
Hi Terry- I can't recall how it got started but it seams to have gotten pretty long and deep.
AW, I think making a compliment JUST when a person deserves it is not good enough when you are deeply forever committed to that person. Women usually go out of their way to make the man comfortable and the man usually doesnt see it. So they need to constantly give the compliments so they cover their arses.
I have to go to a funeral- Marks great uncle passed away on Feb 6th. I think over 90 yrs old. I will catch up with you all later :) thanks for the talk AW, KIDS.
Me2, why try to improve the frequency of their compliments? If men don't realize what women do, then I think they need to realize more, realize better what the women do. Work on that realization, and I would think you'd have men with more admiration and love for women, and compliments that are better and at more appropriate times.
Compliments that aren't heartfelt and honest are just empty words in my book.
The things that seem to make our relationship work are the little things...calling when you'll be late, calling during the day out of the blue just to say hi, sharing household chores, holding hands, that special look, a little hug now and then, being supportive when things get out of sorts, stuff like that.
The bigger things are never going to bed angry with each other and trust.
I hope he does. Once you understand someone, ittiz easier to figure things out. I would LOVE the challenge o'hysterical stuff - now that I *think* (can we ever be sure?) Millett wrote the clues.
One of the lines in this book, "The Secret Alliance," says that Holmes and Rafferty are, while opposites, very much alike in that they "love the hunt." Something like that - that they both love the challenge of detecting.
Can you think of anyone else at MomPress that would love the challenge as much as Millett in skunking us?
And I've said before, you can tell a person's style o'writing... Like, even if I came in under a different name, I would bee picked out as me. Writing and talking are much like fingerprints...
Millett's style comes across in the clues. If you've read and enjoyed his books like I do, I bet you could see it, too.
I think an important point is being missed here. This is simply about division a labor. If you were to leave a guy on his own, unless he was pretty materialistic, his goal would be to work as little as possible and spend the rest of his time fishing, playing video games, posting on the internet, etc. So when a guy goes to work all day, everyday, it *is* a statement of his love for his woman and his desire to provide her with the things she wants and need rather than slough off and just get by while having fun. I bet if Ares was in a serious relationship, even he would actually start working while at work. hehe
Would you rather hear "You look lovely today," everyday for a month...
Or would you rather hear this just once during that month...?
"On the day of the Rehash Bash it was snowing out and towards the end a bunch of us were down at the fire rings. As the snow landed, it melted on anything and everything that was warm and consequently everyone was starting to get pretty wet. And I remember looking over and seeing you seeing you there and I just looked for a moment. Your hair was pretty much ruined by the dampness and your jacket was all wet. It was hardly a moment of glamour, and yet I remember as I looked noticing how remarkable your beauty was even in those conditions. Your eyes seemed to be almost accentuated by the wilting of your hair and on such a gray, coudly day, they seemed by far the brightest things around. You had locked yourself out of your car that day, almost gotten into an accident on the way down to the fire rings, and you were likely cold and tired. Yet your charm and sense of humor didn't really fade. You were still having fun and at the same time trying to make sure everything was taken care of as the bash wrapped up. Put someone in the spotlight with hours to do their hair and makeup, and most anyone can seem beautiful. But to carry it off under the conditions we had that day speaks to a definite genuineness and rarity of beauty, both inside and out."
Of course this is a strictly hypothetical question. Being that I'm almost dating someone else, I wouldn't want to be accused of looking at other women :-P
Much of what one considers romantic and appropriate changes or morphs as the relationship changes.
There's the just fell in love - fireworks going off time of a relationship.
Then there's the getting to really know someone stage where there's still fireworks, but there's also some deep discussions that can last hours.
Then there's the "this is the one for my life" stage that often results in a proposal and acceptance or co-habiting. Fireworks are still around and you can't imagine your life without that special someone.
After you live under the same roof, there's the underwear in the bathroom, toothpaste cover that gets left off, the way the other person squeezes the toothpaste out, the financial figuring out stage that often leads to little disagreements and the fireworks when you make up.
About the time you settle into a nice routine, someone thinks about babies and before you know it, your home is filled with baby bottles, cribs, nighttime feedings and there's hardly time for fireworks...but in a good relationship, you feel supported and loved without the fireworks.
As those babies grow, there's scouts, after school activities, sports, school programs, conferences and running kids back and forth most nights of the week. You smile at each other over the heads of 10 giggly girls at a birthday party and wonder how you got to this.
The kids grow and soon there's dating and cars and driver licenses and though you're not running them around, you worry until you hear them come through the door at night. You roll over and hug your honey and get a squeeze of the hand in response. Those teen years are the pits and you often wonder if there's a way to turn in your parenthood badge.
You find yourself not just taking care of your kids, but your parents are aging and need your attention too.
Your "career" is often taking much of your time and energy too.
Time is never enough for anything. If you get lucky, you and your mate can have a night out once every now and again.
All of a sudden, they're graduating and going off to college. You are empty nesters and there's time for fireworks and getting to know each other all over again.
What you need and want changes during your life. The most important thing is good communication, lots of love, trust and committment.
On the "looking" debate- I enjoy looking at people (men or woman) that I find attractive or interesting, and if Marley never looked at an attractive woman I'd think there was something wrong with him. I enjoy the fact that We can say to eachother "look at him/her" - "isn't he/she attractive?" without fear of bruising the others ego/self-esteem.
On the "compliment" debate- I'd say I prefer complete honesty and straight forwardness to half-meant compliments meant to appease. When I look like hell- I expect Marley to tell me I look like hell. I know what I look like and if he says I look good to appease me I'm gonna be upset. It would serve to undermine my trust in his being honest. But also, if I do feel I look good, I don't expect to be complimented, its nice when it happens (from boyfriend or stranger alike) but certainly not necissary. When I look really good I can see it in his eyes.
Personally- guys who constantly complimented me or ceasingly lavished attention on me "exclusivly" never lasted long- made me feel claustrophobic, and way too draining! I prefer the "strong silent type" (strength of character and conviction), who's actions speak louder than words, someone who is independant and can deal with my independent nature. For me its more important to be with someone who gives me the space to be myself than someone who tells me how great I am, and I try to return that same respect, but thats just me. Everyone is different, and wants/expects different things from their relationships/partner.
I'm right with ya artemis-if someone dotes on you too much it is verry much claustrophobic, hubby used to call me at work everyday like 3-4 times, I felt more like I had a stalker instead of a husband.It doesn't bother me if he looks at someone else but he also makes sure to tell me I'm beutiful and that he loves me, I could be just crawling out of bed with ratty hair and bad breath but he will still make a point of complimenting me. I can't wait until the kids are all out on their own so we can slow down a little and really enjoy what we have! he doesn't bring home flowers much-mostly because we can't afford it but I would rather have the everyday "I love you" and "your beautiful" than flowers once a month.
All of a sudden, they're graduating and going off to college. You are empty nesters and there's time for fireworks and getting to know each other all over again
I hope thats where you two are at Inks-Ter ;) I have been through most of that already- but it would have been nice to know about all that when a teenager and then reminded again as a young adult and again before getting married and again before having children :)
and I like 1/2 of what Artemis said and 3/4 of what LL said. feeling stalked? yuk! no thanks -been through that too but the occasional call is nice. I get more than enough freedom.
he doesn't bring home flowers much-mostly because we can't afford it but I would rather have the everyday "I love you" and "your beautiful" than flowers once a month.
I agree. It's just that it seams most men I have ever known are to the extreme-either they are practically stalking (agreed-draining and scary) OR don't tell you how they feel often enough.
For me its more important to be with someone who gives me the space to be myself than someone who tells me how great I am
having both in a happy medium is what I want. I already have the space -just need more compliments-don't have to be how 'great' I am cause I am by no way even near 'great' -but compliments are important-don't you want compliments from your boss or coworkers? some do-some don't. I do and I like to give compliments too.
Some men compliment while dating- then as soon as they 'gotcha' they get lazy. relationships have their ups and downs forsure- but when you realize its down, you better work on the up. ;)
I love to people watch -one of the best reasons to go to the State Fair :)
I think the thing we're missing here, on the gift giving/compliment front, is "It's the thought that counts." If I brought flowers to a woman and she complained that they're not the type she likes, I'd be a little put off. I mean, hey! I brought you some flowers! Same thing with a compliment. If it's meant sincerely, and not just to appease, who cares if I said "You look really hot-now that you're getting fat and those jeans are too tight." If I really mean it, take it in the spirit it's offered, as a compliment every bit as good as "You look pretty." and maybe better since it's more personal and true.
me2, can you honestly tell me you never notice an attractive guy?
I am not trying to play the double standard here. I noticed many when single. I give Mark compliments often- if not daily. I have only noticed 2 guys ever that have been 'eye catching' in 10 years of being with Mark.
funny thing is- I notice more women. which is a bummer for me- typical self conscience woman I am.
I have found that men have more trouble with balancing this than women. But 'times are a changin'- I am just going by what I have seen in 20 years with my age group and my parents age group.
But I'm not complimenting you. I'm just stating facts.
In reality, it seems like a delicate balance. If you say "you look really good" or "I love you", or something like that, it may start to seem like an automated thing. You say it and it begins to lose it's power in a sense. People may start to think you're saying it to appease a person, not because you mean it. If you don't say it enough, then people may start to wonder if either there's an ulterior motive behind it, or if it means they weren't as good before.
OH CM- a really cool idea would be to get her the same flowers that were in her bouquet when you married. Just the thought that you would recall them or take the time and unselfishness to find out should make her feel good. I would just melt if Mark ever brought me sweet peasor forget-me-nots. I had roses too in mine but it was the meaning behind the others that made our wedding unique to us. and giving her apart of your genuine thought of her should mean a lot of smiles and good feelings :)
I don't like giving out empty compliments and I hate it even more when I'm expected to say something nice just for the sake of saying it. If I'm going to compliment someone, it's going to be either because something happened that made me consciously aware of how much they deserve the compliment, or quite possibly because something like Valentine's Day comes along and gets me thinking along those lines and reminds me of how remarkable someone might be. Although in that case I'lll generally make an effort to make the compliment sound as genuine and personal as possible rather than relying on some cliche. But then again it helps when you're a good writer and I don't think it would be fair for women to expect all guys to do that as some people just don't express their feelings well.
I disagree a bit in that Kids- that if you actually mean it when you say it and it doesn't sound repetitive than it empowers your relationship. and also when you say it- if you always say it when you go to work or at the end of a phone conversation -that can be boring- but when you say it as your actually falling asleep, already rolled over with your eyes closed and its soft with your last breath OR when she's making dinner and you come up behind her,cuddling your strong arms around her body and whisper it in her ear--- thats the difference. That comes into play with men and women being Venus and Mars and no romance and romance.
You can take something that is so repetitious and make it feel very different and special. Even sometimes when you don't feel like saying nice things sometimes may be when they are needed to be said more! Couple get into a 'comfort zone' that can get them into a bad rut. You sometimes need to take an initiative and spice your love up a bit. That 'comfort zone' is laziness in a relationship- yeah you feel confortable enough to act yourself- no problem but it can turn your lovelife upsidedown if your not paying attention- this is where that 'looking' can burn you cause during this 'comfort zone' you feel like you don't have to tell the person you love how much you love them-they should just know it cause you've already said it before. WRONG! never enough
Me2, I meant that it could be that. I think a big key is variety. Variety in your responses. What you say, when you say it, how you say it, etc. It's like you telling CM what to get his wife for Valentines Day. The flowers from their wedding is a good idea. But do that year after year, it would lose it's flavor somewhat I think. There are so many things in our lives that have meaning. I try to find something special, something appropriate, something somewhat fresh and unexpected.
How did this interesting discussion get started?
right kids-
Hi Terry- I can't recall how it got started but it seams to have gotten pretty long and deep.
AW, I think making a compliment JUST when a person deserves it is not good enough when you are deeply forever committed to that person. Women usually go out of their way to make the man comfortable and the man usually doesnt see it. So they need to constantly give the compliments so they cover their arses.
I have to go to a funeral- Marks great uncle passed away on Feb 6th. I think over 90 yrs old. I will catch up with you all later :)
thanks for the talk AW, KIDS.
Me2, why try to improve the frequency of their compliments? If men don't realize what women do, then I think they need to realize more, realize better what the women do. Work on that realization, and I would think you'd have men with more admiration and love for women, and compliments that are better and at more appropriate times.
Compliments that aren't heartfelt and honest are just empty words in my book.
The things that seem to make our relationship work are the little things...calling when you'll be late, calling during the day out of the blue just to say hi, sharing household chores, holding hands, that special look, a little hug now and then, being supportive when things get out of sorts, stuff like that.
The bigger things are never going to bed angry with each other and trust.
That would make sense with all the obscure historical references. Plus he was Boxmeyer's accomplice when Boxmeyer was doing it.
I hope they don't as I don't think some of those clues could have been researched successfully.
I hope he does. Once you understand someone, ittiz easier to figure things out. I would LOVE the challenge o'hysterical stuff - now that I *think* (can we ever be sure?) Millett wrote the clues.
One of the lines in this book, "The Secret Alliance," says that Holmes and Rafferty are, while opposites, very much alike in that they "love the hunt." Something like that - that they both love the challenge of detecting.
Can you think of anyone else at MomPress that would love the challenge as much as Millett in skunking us?
And I've said before, you can tell a person's style o'writing... Like, even if I came in under a different name, I would bee picked out as me. Writing and talking are much like fingerprints...
Millett's style comes across in the clues. If you've read and enjoyed his books like I do, I bet you could see it, too.
(putting soap box away...)
Interesting conversation.
me2, can you honestly tell me you never notice an attractive guy?
Hell, even I've noticed attractive guys. Doesn't mean I want to sleep with them.
Nite Sam
Catch you all later.
nite ralph.
I thought I saw you checking me out THX.... ;)
I love that the men say.."well, I work all day"
I think an important point is being missed here. This is simply about division a labor. If you were to leave a guy on his own, unless he was pretty materialistic, his goal would be to work as little as possible and spend the rest of his time fishing, playing video games, posting on the internet, etc. So when a guy goes to work all day, everyday, it *is* a statement of his love for his woman and his desire to provide her with the things she wants and need rather than slough off and just get by while having fun. I bet if Ares was in a serious relationship, even he would actually start working while at work. hehe
Back to the compliment debate...
So tell me Me2, which would you rather have?
Would you rather hear "You look lovely today," everyday for a month...
Or would you rather hear this just once during that month...?
"On the day of the Rehash Bash it was snowing out and towards the end a bunch of us were down at the fire rings. As the snow landed, it melted on anything and everything that was warm and consequently everyone was starting to get pretty wet. And I remember looking over and seeing you seeing you there and I just looked for a moment. Your hair was pretty much ruined by the dampness and your jacket was all wet. It was hardly a moment of glamour, and yet I remember as I looked noticing how remarkable your beauty was even in those conditions. Your eyes seemed to be almost accentuated by the wilting of your hair and on such a gray, coudly day, they seemed by far the brightest things around. You had locked yourself out of your car that day, almost gotten into an accident on the way down to the fire rings, and you were likely cold and tired. Yet your charm and sense of humor didn't really fade. You were still having fun and at the same time trying to make sure everything was taken care of as the bash wrapped up. Put someone in the spotlight with hours to do their hair and makeup, and most anyone can seem beautiful. But to carry it off under the conditions we had that day speaks to a definite genuineness and rarity of beauty, both inside and out."
Of course this is a strictly hypothetical question. Being that I'm almost dating someone else, I wouldn't want to be accused of looking at other women :-P
Wow! I thank god that everyone thinks , acts and IS DIFFERENT!
I just hope you (Me2) give a copy of this to MARK so he can understand how you feel!
I bet if Ares was in a serious relationship, even he would actually start working while at work. hehe
not bloody likely. but possible.
Much of what one considers romantic and appropriate changes or morphs as the relationship changes.
There's the just fell in love - fireworks going off time of a relationship.
Then there's the getting to really know someone stage where there's still fireworks, but there's also some deep discussions that can last hours.
Then there's the "this is the one for my life" stage that often results in a proposal and acceptance or co-habiting. Fireworks are still around and you can't imagine your life without that special someone.
After you live under the same roof, there's the underwear in the bathroom, toothpaste cover that gets left off, the way the other person squeezes the toothpaste out, the financial figuring out stage that often leads to little disagreements and the fireworks when you make up.
About the time you settle into a nice routine, someone thinks about babies and before you know it, your home is filled with baby bottles, cribs, nighttime feedings and there's hardly time for fireworks...but in a good relationship, you feel supported and loved without the fireworks.
As those babies grow, there's scouts, after school activities, sports, school programs, conferences and running kids back and forth most nights of the week. You smile at each other over the heads of 10 giggly girls at a birthday party and wonder how you got to this.
The kids grow and soon there's dating and cars and driver licenses and though you're not running them around, you worry until you hear them come through the door at night. You roll over and hug your honey and get a squeeze of the hand in response. Those teen years are the pits and you often wonder if there's a way to turn in your parenthood badge.
You find yourself not just taking care of your kids, but your parents are aging and need your attention too.
Your "career" is often taking much of your time and energy too.
Time is never enough for anything. If you get lucky, you and your mate can have a night out once every now and again.
All of a sudden, they're graduating and going off to college. You are empty nesters and there's time for fireworks and getting to know each other all over again.
What you need and want changes during your life. The most important thing is good communication, lots of love, trust and committment.
The most important thing is good communication and lots of love.
word!
Well put Ter! The cycle of life!
On the "looking" debate- I enjoy looking at people (men or woman) that I find attractive or interesting, and if Marley never looked at an attractive woman I'd think there was something wrong with him. I enjoy the fact that We can say to eachother "look at him/her" - "isn't he/she attractive?" without fear of bruising the others ego/self-esteem.
On the "compliment" debate- I'd say I prefer complete honesty and straight forwardness to half-meant compliments meant to appease. When I look like hell- I expect Marley to tell me I look like hell. I know what I look like and if he says I look good to appease me I'm gonna be upset. It would serve to undermine my trust in his being honest. But also, if I do feel I look good, I don't expect to be complimented, its nice when it happens (from boyfriend or stranger alike) but certainly not necissary. When I look really good I can see it in his eyes.
Personally- guys who constantly complimented me or ceasingly lavished attention on me "exclusivly" never lasted long- made me feel claustrophobic, and way too draining! I prefer the "strong silent type" (strength of character and conviction), who's actions speak louder than words, someone who is independant and can deal with my independent nature. For me its more important to be with someone who gives me the space to be myself than someone who tells me how great I am, and I try to return that same respect, but thats just me. Everyone is different, and wants/expects different things from their relationships/partner.
I'm right with ya artemis-if someone dotes on you too much it is verry much claustrophobic, hubby used to call me at work everyday like 3-4 times, I felt more like I had a stalker instead of a husband.It doesn't bother me if he looks at someone else but he also makes sure to tell me I'm beutiful and that he loves me, I could be just crawling out of bed with ratty hair and bad breath but he will still make a point of complimenting me. I can't wait until the kids are all out on their own so we can slow down a little and really enjoy what we have! he doesn't bring home flowers much-mostly because we can't afford it but I would rather have the everyday "I love you" and "your beautiful" than flowers once a month.
Pretty much whenever that happens, they just flip you off, and go on their way.
Not that I would know from personal experience or anything... just saying.
Education is a transformation from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty (not sure who said it)
I like Artemis's strong silent identity, whether it was socially constructed, or not ;)
ya, I think I just read it over there.
A baseball snack's a shape to know
As you dig around in snow
Find sixty-four, hop on and score,
If you’re in a rush to go
There ya go reg.
Someone tell my mom not to make brownies! I am not capable in eating so many.
Well! Just send some over this way then!
:(
What are the ingedients of thoze brownies?
Wouldn't you like to know? I think they made them on That 70's Show once. ;o)
ZZZzzz Time. Go to bed VJ
What are the ingedients of thoze brownies?
I bet she uses some kind of really good HERB!
Yeah MON!!!!
I want 1! (ok so I want 20) hehe
Mornin all how long till the 2004 hunt? I cant wait!!!!!!
hahahha- Clowns.
All of a sudden, they're graduating and going off to college. You are empty nesters and there's time for fireworks and getting to know each other all over again
I hope thats where you two are at Inks-Ter ;)
I have been through most of that already- but it would have been nice to know about all that when a teenager and then reminded again as a young adult and again before getting married and again before having children :)
and I like 1/2 of what Artemis said and 3/4 of what LL said.
feeling stalked? yuk! no thanks -been through that too
but the occasional call is nice. I get more than enough freedom.
he doesn't bring home flowers much-mostly because we can't afford it but I would rather have the everyday "I love you" and "your beautiful" than flowers once a month.
I agree. It's just that it seams most men I have ever known are to the extreme-either they are practically stalking (agreed-draining and scary) OR don't tell you how they feel often enough.
For me its more important to be with someone who gives me the space to be myself than someone who tells me how great I am
having both in a happy medium is what I want. I already have the space -just need more compliments-don't have to be how 'great' I am cause I am by no way even near 'great' -but compliments are important-don't you want compliments from your boss or coworkers? some do-some don't. I do and I like to give compliments too.
Some men compliment while dating- then as soon as they 'gotcha' they get lazy. relationships have their ups and downs forsure- but when you realize its down, you better work on the up. ;)
I love to people watch -one of the best reasons to go to the State Fair :)
me2, you never answered my question: THX 1138 2/9/03 4:10pm
I think the thing we're missing here, on the gift giving/compliment front, is "It's the thought that counts." If I brought flowers to a woman and she complained that they're not the type she likes, I'd be a little put off. I mean, hey! I brought you some flowers! Same thing with a compliment. If it's meant sincerely, and not just to appease, who cares if I said "You look really hot-now that you're getting fat and those jeans are too tight." If I really mean it, take it in the spirit it's offered, as a compliment every bit as good as "You look pretty." and maybe better since it's more personal and true.
sorry- THX...here...
me2, can you honestly tell me you never notice an attractive guy?
I am not trying to play the double standard here.
I noticed many when single. I give Mark compliments often- if not daily. I have only noticed 2 guys ever that have been 'eye catching' in 10 years of being with Mark.
funny thing is- I notice more women. which is a bummer for me- typical self conscience woman I am.
I have found that men have more trouble with balancing this than women. But 'times are a changin'- I am just going by what I have seen in 20 years with my age group and my parents age group.