Luv... I am certain that we are always "Looking For Him", and rightly so. But how can tens of thousands of people, both on the ground and through surveilance methods that have cost billions and are quite able, FAILED to confirm one way or the other, that he is or isn't alive?
Easily, He's one man. One man though who has thousands of sympathetic people where he goes not to mention fiercly loyal aides, soilders etc. Every hamlet and village he goes to would find most sympathetic to him and some even in the govt. of the country he is in. Now I say that IF he is alive which I don't think he is.
We have to assume that he IS alive, and in fact, intensify the effort to nail his ass to a rock(being that there ain't much wood in that area?). The intelligence community has failed, miserably, in the search for that madman. I think it is KEY to shut him down. Absolutely KEY.
I agree that you have to assume he's alive and do it that way. If he is dead at least as a side benefit you will find some of his top henchmen hopefully. The problem is though if you that look at that region there are endless countries he could go to that would harbor him or at least have plenty of sympathizers in. Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Lybia, Sudan,.....The list could go on and on. We don't have people in all those countries.
We have people wanted in this country who are wanted and we can't find. And most of those people don't know who they are or wouldn't recognize him on the street.
But again IF he is alive why no videotape ? You think for one minute he wouldn't be giving us a big F.U with his smarmy rat face all over Al Jezzera ?
It is the visage of OBL, the extremism he represents, the values he espouses and the constant reminder that the promethean American power has not been able to display his wasted corpse that sends the adrenalin rushing in the veins of the Islamic enemies of the US.
OBL mocks the impotence of the US to find him. His followers in the subcontinent, South East Asia , and the Middle East despotic American vassal states take inspiration from this and plot devious means of inflicting horrendous harm of the American citizenry.
Meanwhile, little boy bush pursues familial vendettas, pays obeisance to the gods of mammon led by the Oil god and thinks nothing of obliterating innocent American and Iraqi life in the quest for his vengeful appetites.
As Americans we are forced to helplessly witness the decimation of our own flesh and blood and also bear the cross of having sacrificed hapless Iraqi life at the alter of greed and hegemony.
Ask the Iraqi people what they are willing to go through to get rid of Saddamm.
They have a choice, a war that will no doubt inflict causalites within their citizenry that albeit dreadfully painful in the short term would be painful nonetheless. Or they could slowly die from starvtion, and be opressed, tortured, raped or killed for another 20 years.
Some of the loudest voices for taking action are those of the people you are speaking for.
I'll give it a rest when you espouse pro-abortion jethro - as opposed tour current nonsensical views.
You may disagree with my views on abortion but they make perfect sense based on the premise. Your views don't make sense because they are warped by, naradar.
That's what I mean Einlyn it seems to me that those who actually live there and have to live under his wretched rule are the ones wanting it to happen. I'm sure there's an exception as there is to every rule. It's hard to get an exact feel since any "interviews" done in Bagdahad have an "observer" present. I predict once most citizens realize he is truly gone and that we aren't going to stop halfway they will rejoice in the street similar to Kandahar.
On a scale of 1 to 10, with one being the least amount of concern and 10 being the most, where would you place humanitarian concern of the administration and the American people -- on the whole -- for the oppressed citizens of Iraq.
I'd say 3 or 4. Of course it's not the main reason and I would never say it is. I know personally that in 91' threre were things done to avoid hurting civilians. It's war and civilains get hurt and die. I would never say that it's the main factor behind going into Iraq. It's a side benefit similar to the Afghan's being freed from the Taliban. My point is that I find it disagreeable to use the argument of speaking for the Iraqis.
iraqi people can not speak publicly or saddam will murder them.
Saudi/Egyptian/Syrian/and a whole host of USA allies can not speak publicly or their US backed leadership will murder them
iraqi people can not openly leave baghdad or saddam will murder them.
ditto Saudi et al - and that too the women.
iraqi people know that the only way to end saddams tyrrany is by force, and they anticipate usa arrival with much hope.
Should we not help our other brothers in nations where the peoples detest the leaders ( Pukistan for sure) and also make them eager in anticipation??
why pick on Iraq?? Oil? personal scores to settle? quick distratction from the sorry state of the economy , failure of home intelligence and religious zeal for revenge??
See Naradar's last post for moral realitivsm, contradiction and oh, yea, well what about them ? If it's done in other nations why bother to do anything about another. Ask the Serbs about that.
why pick on Iraq?? Oil? the oil is flowing already so that can't be it.personal scores to settle? deceptively appealing reason, but how does that explain Clinton's rhetoric in 1998?quick distraction from the sorry state of the economy, If you have been paying attention it seems that the threat of war is hurting the economyfailure of home intelligence and religious zeal for revenge?? revenge would be fine if Saddam had a hand in 9/11 .
I was for it on a purely humanitarian basis, the slaughter there from Milosevic and co. was unimaginible. Guess what, civilians died in that action too. Hell there's alot of oil in the Balkans too. Funny I didn't hear protest from Hollywood then. Funny how we weren't being unilateral then. Funny how we weren't "rushing" to war. Funny how we weren't being "imperialistic".
What I find funny was how France and Germany had no problem with it when it was in thier backyard now since they have money involved, there's a problem.
France and Germany, although they may have won a short-term gain among their political supporters. Have done more harm to their long term prosperity than perhaps is apparent today.
BTW,The French did demand that Sadddamm pass a law banning WMD's.
Damn, why didn't we think of that, that would have saved us alot of trouble over the years.
I'm going to Europe next week, not that I care much to go at this time.
Europe's a little closer to all this. There's lots of Arab Muslims in both Germany and France. In the past France has been fairly successful at ferreting out the bad ones. Germany seems to have cells of Al Qaeda in their midst.
It's maybe one reason to be nervous about signing on.
A friend of mine is a pilot in the Army. He is stationed I'll just say in Europe but he is deployed. I happened to talk to his wife yesterday, She told me she doesn't feel very safe there with the kids and says it's a 50-50 split among citizens. They don't speak english when they are out so she just tells the kids to be quiet. The soilders of that country are guarding the base. It's a very tense situation for the families.
well Luv, I can say that regardless of what the government is doing, I cant imagine it being dangerous here for Americans in any way. and Id say Im close here....
(Stuttgart airfield; US European Command in Stuttgart- Vaihingen, Barracks in Vaihingen, Möhringen, Böblingen et al....)
I'd like to know what you are seeing as the majority of German opinions regarding our troops there and the impending war. I know that might be a tough thing to summarize but I value your opinion.
as far as I can see, US-troops in Germany are sort of a "non-issue". most people here-like me- grew up with it and never thought much about it. (when I was really small, I thought Americans were soldiers/soldiers were Americans:-)).
the war, well. Ive written a lot about that lately. I THINK, what happened in Germany is sort of a total reversal of past attitudes. war, to germans is something bad. in our history, war is misery, defeat, genocide, loss of values etc, and germans feel they should never ever encourage/support a war to be started.
I was puzzled at first, about this categorical NO, because Yugoslavia happened, and even Afghanistan. after having given it some thought, I think Yugoslavia was possible because the violence was already there and had to be STOPPED(what the appropriate means to that are, may be another question), and with Afghanistan, 911 was still a very strong and traumatic experience.
the difference in Iraq is that there has to be a decision to start military action. the german constitution says, that preparing/leading a "war of aggression", is unconstitutional and a punishable offense. even though that might not be what Iraq is about, people arent too sure about that.
war is a taboo. and thats why you can barely discuss with people if it might not be necessary, in some cases. when attempting to discuss what should happen with Saddam, everyone agrees that he is horrible and a threat, too, but when it somes to how to achieve the goal, war is not a possibility at all. alternatives usually arent given either. the simple fact that war is bad, is enough as an argument.
I think it has to do with the pretty recent last war, and the bombings. people remember what it was like to be in a bombed town, to be there wile the bombs fall and the firestorm roars and sucks people in. combined with the feeling of having caused enough suffering, the feeling to know what being in a warzone as children(thats what the average war survivor here were during WW2)is like, also block people from even considering war as an option.
its a deeply emotional issue, which is also why it is being dealt with in this way. war-no war, here, can be instrumentalized because it has to do so much with the people, with the stories grandparents told, etc. and everyone grew up with the "never again engage in war"- message.
the problem is that the lesson learnt wasnt necessarily the most sensible one, because of course, germans should fight dictatorship and oppression, genocide and the like, too.
contrary to the US, the UK or even Frances experiences with war, the german feeling has nothing to do with "liberation", with fighting for a "just cause", it is only connected with suffering, poverty, despair, moral desaster as well.
Im trying to look at this all sort of as an observer. of course I cant get out of my skin though:-). so its just an attempt.
sardinhas assadas are grilled sardines. they are fresh, then put into sea salt, then thrown onto the grill and then eaten as a whole, with portuguese corn bread (pao, which simply means bread, Im not sure if there are more kinds of bread though, in the area where I was, that or baguette was the only bread). its VERY good:-)
I spent a lot of time in Northern Portugal when I was a small child:-), and my family has lived through some horrible events in Ponte de Lima(run over by a bull, almost killed, one of my earliest memories is my mother holding me above her head while the bull is attacking her(and hit her with his horns, in fact), then my Dad getting in between and being thrown around, trampled over by the bull, and then thrown into a window....:-)). it was a mass panic there, several people were severely injured....(jumped from the bridge in panic, and things like that).
Thanks Kath. I appreciate the insight, I really do. That's one thing I love about the net. You get a chance to talk to people like yourself whom I normally wouldn't and look at it from another perspective. And I thank you deeply for that. :)
btw, today the german parliament discussed the Iraq policy, and it was a clear CDU/CSU against SPD debate.
CDU(Angela Merkel) says Schröder messed up bigtime, made a war more likely to happen instead of less and should have kept his mouth shut, close to the US, and the pressure on Iraq up.
Schröder gives the "peace- chancellor" and feels "it cant be wrong to try everything to prevent war". and of course CDU are all "warmongers".
its the top news item here today. maybe you get something on it too, today or tomorrow:-)
Jethro... What is your opinion on the law-suit now taking shape in the halls of Congress, that would limit the President's power to wage war, without a formal declaration, as the Constitution CLEARLY establishes as a Pre-Requisite for war?
I wasn't aware that was being considered. Do you have a link?
Part of the agenda of little boy bush and his cohorts is to enhance the power of the executive branch and manipulate the judicial branch by loading it with supine think-alikes. Included in the strategy is the plan to make the legislative branch impotent - and he has managed to do just that. In essence the constitution gets subverted and we are ruled by a despot. No different than Iraq.
Bill,
Easily, He's one man. One man though who has thousands of sympathetic people where he goes not to mention fiercly loyal aides, soilders etc. Every hamlet and village he goes to would find most sympathetic to him and some even in the govt. of the country he is in. Now I say that IF he is alive which I don't think he is.
I agree that you have to assume he's alive and do it that way. If he is dead at least as a side benefit you will find some of his top henchmen hopefully. The problem is though if you that look at that region there are endless countries he could go to that would harbor him or at least have plenty of sympathizers in. Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Lybia, Sudan,.....The list could go on and on. We don't have people in all those countries.
We have people wanted in this country who are wanted and we can't find. And most of those people don't know who they are or wouldn't recognize him on the street.
But again IF he is alive why no videotape ? You think for one minute he wouldn't be giving us a big F.U with his smarmy rat face all over Al Jezzera ?
bin laden is alive, but he is planning to stage his death during the war in iraq.
How do you know this? Your name isn't Osama is it?
Einlyn 2/13/03 7:43am
Hi and welcome.
Why no videotape of him ?
It is the visage of OBL, the extremism he represents, the values he espouses and the constant reminder that the promethean American power has not been able to display his wasted corpse that sends the adrenalin rushing in the veins of the Islamic enemies of the US.
OBL mocks the impotence of the US to find him. His followers in the subcontinent, South East Asia , and the Middle East despotic American vassal states take inspiration from this and plot devious means of inflicting horrendous harm of the American citizenry.
Meanwhile, little boy bush pursues familial vendettas, pays obeisance to the gods of mammon led by the Oil god and thinks nothing of obliterating innocent American and Iraqi life in the quest for his vengeful appetites.
As Americans we are forced to helplessly witness the decimation of our own flesh and blood and also bear the cross of having sacrificed hapless Iraqi life at the alter of greed and hegemony.
give it a rest, naradar, it is pure nonsense.
give it a rest, naradar, it is pure nonsense.
I'll give it a rest when you espouse pro-abortion jethro - as opposed tour current nonsensical views.
Naradar,
Ask the Iraqi people what they are willing to go through to get rid of Saddamm.
They have a choice, a war that will no doubt inflict causalites within their citizenry that albeit dreadfully painful in the short term would be painful nonetheless. Or they could slowly die from starvtion, and be opressed, tortured, raped or killed for another 20 years.
Some of the loudest voices for taking action are those of the people you are speaking for.
I'll give it a rest when you espouse pro-abortion jethro - as opposed tour current nonsensical views.
You may disagree with my views on abortion but they make perfect sense based on the premise. Your views don't make sense because they are warped by, naradar.
Einlyn 2/13/03 9:42am
That's what I mean Einlyn it seems to me that those who actually live there and have to live under his wretched rule are the ones wanting it to happen. I'm sure there's an exception as there is to every rule. It's hard to get an exact feel since any "interviews" done in Bagdahad have an "observer" present. I predict once most citizens realize he is truly gone and that we aren't going to stop halfway they will rejoice in the street similar to Kandahar.
Rob:
On a scale of 1 to 10, with one being the least amount of concern and 10 being the most, where would you place humanitarian concern of the administration and the American people -- on the whole -- for the oppressed citizens of Iraq.
The Powell Doctrine trashed - by Powell
I'd say 3 or 4. Of course it's not the main reason and I would never say it is. I know personally that in 91' threre were things done to avoid hurting civilians. It's war and civilains get hurt and die. I would never say that it's the main factor behind going into Iraq. It's a side benefit similar to the Afghan's being freed from the Taliban. My point is that I find it disagreeable to use the argument of speaking for the Iraqis.
hi eye - Einlyn 2/13/03 9:50am
saw in WOT run amok forum
iraqi people can not speak publicly or saddam will murder them.
Saudi/Egyptian/Syrian/and a whole host of USA allies can not speak publicly or their US backed leadership will murder them
iraqi people can not openly leave baghdad or saddam will murder them.
ditto Saudi et al - and that too the women.
iraqi people know that the only way to end saddams tyrrany is by force, and they anticipate usa arrival with much hope.
Should we not help our other brothers in nations where the peoples detest the leaders ( Pukistan for sure) and also make them eager in anticipation??
why pick on Iraq?? Oil? personal scores to settle? quick distratction from the sorry state of the economy , failure of home intelligence and religious zeal for revenge??
I'd go with 3 to 4, too.
See Naradar's last post for moral realitivsm, contradiction and oh, yea, well what about them ? If it's done in other nations why bother to do anything about another. Ask the Serbs about that.
Were any of the people that post here for going into Kosovo and Bosnia?
Rick,
I know you're a self confessed Franco file. Do you think the French have gone just a bit beyond being fickle or cute ?
Same with the Germans.
IMO I think they both have perhaps cut off their nose to spite their face.
why pick on Iraq?? Oil? the oil is flowing already so that can't be it.personal scores to settle? deceptively appealing reason, but how does that explain Clinton's rhetoric in 1998?quick distraction from the sorry state of the economy, If you have been paying attention it seems that the threat of war is hurting the economyfailure of home intelligence and religious zeal for revenge?? revenge would be fine if Saddam had a hand in 9/11 .
Einlyn 2/13/03 10:05am
BINGO !
I think Kosovo and Bosnia were in the national interest because of geography.
As for Iraq, I'll think one thing one day, and another thing the next. Sometimes it changes from morning to afternoon.
I wish France would take this whole thing more seriously.
Thanks Rick. I was just curious were you stood on those two.
I think Kosovo and Bosnia were in the national interest because of geography.
Explain, because I don't see it.
Wolvie 2/13/03 10:05am
Wolvie,
I was for it on a purely humanitarian basis, the slaughter there from Milosevic and co. was unimaginible. Guess what, civilians died in that action too. Hell there's alot of oil in the Balkans too. Funny I didn't hear protest from Hollywood then. Funny how we weren't being unilateral then. Funny how we weren't "rushing" to war. Funny how we weren't being "imperialistic".
What I find funny was how France and Germany had no problem with it when it was in thier backyard now since they have money involved, there's a problem.
France and Germany, although they may have won a short-term gain among their political supporters. Have done more harm to their long term prosperity than perhaps is apparent today.
BTW,The French did demand that Sadddamm pass a law banning WMD's.
Damn, why didn't we think of that, that would have saved us alot of trouble over the years.
I'm going to Europe next week, not that I care much to go at this time.
Europe's a little closer to all this. There's lots of Arab Muslims in both Germany and France. In the past France has been fairly successful at ferreting out the bad ones. Germany seems to have cells of Al Qaeda in their midst.
It's maybe one reason to be nervous about signing on.
What part of Europe Rick ? I mean you don't have to tell us what hotel you're staying at but what countries ?
Portugal.
I suggest you pretend you're a Swiss tourist.
Seriously, I hope you have a safe and enjoyable trip.
Let us know the mood in Portugal when you get back.
Stay safe.
Rick,
A friend of mine is a pilot in the Army. He is stationed I'll just say in Europe but he is deployed. I happened to talk to his wife yesterday, She told me she doesn't feel very safe there with the kids and says it's a 50-50 split among citizens. They don't speak english when they are out so she just tells the kids to be quiet. The soilders of that country are guarding the base. It's a very tense situation for the families.
well Luv, I can say that regardless of what the government is doing, I cant imagine it being dangerous here for Americans in any way. and Id say Im close here....
(Stuttgart airfield; US European Command in Stuttgart- Vaihingen, Barracks in Vaihingen, Möhringen, Böblingen et al....)
I'm not a reckless guy when I travel. When I go out, it's usually with a group of people. I was never that worried in Europe, but times are changing.
hey, Portugal is nice. I usually went to the North so, dont know a lot about South and Lisboa region:)
if you travel all over the country, you might come through Ponte de Lima(thats Porto region), its nice, rural area. lots of roman stuff still, too:-)
and what you absolutely need to do is eat sardinhas assadas:-) if they have any:-)
bye for now:-)
Hi Kath, Sorry I missed you.
I'd like to know what you are seeing as the majority of German opinions regarding our troops there and the impending war. I know that might be a tough thing to summarize but I value your opinion.
And what is sardinhas assadas ?
I am assuming sardines with something.
Luv2Fly 2/13/03 11:57am
as far as I can see, US-troops in Germany are sort of a "non-issue". most people here-like me- grew up with it and never thought much about it. (when I was really small, I thought Americans were soldiers/soldiers were Americans:-)).
the war, well. Ive written a lot about that lately. I THINK, what happened in Germany is sort of a total reversal of past attitudes. war, to germans is something bad. in our history, war is misery, defeat, genocide, loss of values etc, and germans feel they should never ever encourage/support a war to be started.
I was puzzled at first, about this categorical NO, because Yugoslavia happened, and even Afghanistan. after having given it some thought, I think Yugoslavia was possible because the violence was already there and had to be STOPPED(what the appropriate means to that are, may be another question), and with Afghanistan, 911 was still a very strong and traumatic experience.
the difference in Iraq is that there has to be a decision to start military action. the german constitution says, that preparing/leading a "war of aggression", is unconstitutional and a punishable offense. even though that might not be what Iraq is about, people arent too sure about that.
war is a taboo. and thats why you can barely discuss with people if it might not be necessary, in some cases. when attempting to discuss what should happen with Saddam, everyone agrees that he is horrible and a threat, too, but when it somes to how to achieve the goal, war is not a possibility at all. alternatives usually arent given either. the simple fact that war is bad, is enough as an argument.
I think it has to do with the pretty recent last war, and the bombings. people remember what it was like to be in a bombed town, to be there wile the bombs fall and the firestorm roars and sucks people in. combined with the feeling of having caused enough suffering, the feeling to know what being in a warzone as children(thats what the average war survivor here were during WW2)is like, also block people from even considering war as an option.
its a deeply emotional issue, which is also why it is being dealt with in this way. war-no war, here, can be instrumentalized because it has to do so much with the people, with the stories grandparents told, etc. and everyone grew up with the "never again engage in war"- message.
the problem is that the lesson learnt wasnt necessarily the most sensible one, because of course, germans should fight dictatorship and oppression, genocide and the like, too.
contrary to the US, the UK or even Frances experiences with war, the german feeling has nothing to do with "liberation", with fighting for a "just cause", it is only connected with suffering, poverty, despair, moral desaster as well.
Im trying to look at this all sort of as an observer. of course I cant get out of my skin though:-). so its just an attempt.
sardinhas assadas are grilled sardines. they are fresh, then put into sea salt, then thrown onto the grill and then eaten as a whole, with portuguese corn bread (pao, which simply means bread, Im not sure if there are more kinds of bread though, in the area where I was, that or baguette was the only bread). its VERY good:-)
I spent a lot of time in Northern Portugal when I was a small child:-), and my family has lived through some horrible events in Ponte de Lima(run over by a bull, almost killed, one of my earliest memories is my mother holding me above her head while the bull is attacking her(and hit her with his horns, in fact), then my Dad getting in between and being thrown around, trampled over by the bull, and then thrown into a window....:-)). it was a mass panic there, several people were severely injured....(jumped from the bridge in panic, and things like that).
til later:-) hopefully:)
kath
Thanks Kath. I appreciate the insight, I really do. That's one thing I love about the net. You get a chance to talk to people like yourself whom I normally wouldn't and look at it from another perspective. And I thank you deeply for that. :)
Luv2Fly 2/13/03 1:38pm
:-)
well, its also just one perspective.:-)
others might see it differently.
btw, today the german parliament discussed the Iraq policy, and it was a clear CDU/CSU against SPD debate.
CDU(Angela Merkel) says Schröder messed up bigtime, made a war more likely to happen instead of less and should have kept his mouth shut, close to the US, and the pressure on Iraq up.
Schröder gives the "peace- chancellor" and feels "it cant be wrong to try everything to prevent war". and of course CDU are all "warmongers".
its the top news item here today. maybe you get something on it too, today or tomorrow:-)
Jethro... What is your opinion on the law-suit now taking shape in the halls of Congress, that would limit the President's power to wage war, without a formal declaration, as the Constitution CLEARLY establishes as a Pre-Requisite for war?
I wasn't aware that was being considered. Do you have a link?
Part of the agenda of little boy bush and his cohorts is to enhance the power of the executive branch and manipulate the judicial branch by loading it with supine think-alikes. Included in the strategy is the plan to make the legislative branch impotent - and he has managed to do just that. In essence the constitution gets subverted and we are ruled by a despot. No different than Iraq.