IF GDubbya thinks that he can prove to the world that these terrible weapons of mass destruction do indeed exist, and he is willing to destroy Saddman to make certain that the world knows, then he should move now, or he will lose ANY chance down the road even a week.
That's been another issue I've had with the U.N. They take so long to do anything. Look at the inspections. It took months to get inspectors back in. We told Saddamn we were coming for months. David Spade put it best. He said it's like a dad saying to his kid. Junior, I'm gonna search your room for pot in 2 months. I better not find it,,and don't take it over to your friend Syria's house.
If he's wrong, he'll pay dearly. If he's right, the U.S. will be handed accolades for disposing of a very real threat.
I'm not a betting man, but if I were I'd plunk down alot of myt money in Vegas that they are there. Hell theirs reports that scuds have been photographed, scuds he's not supposed to have. They've found stuff each week, he has them, I'd bet all my money he does.
So I think, he has two choices:
1. He should go, NOW... Or;
2. He should back down, completely.
What do you think?
I think Saddamn has had 12 years. I think if the U.N is unwilling once again to stand by and do nothing as they did in Rwanda and Kosovo that we should. Iraq's people have had enough of this douchebag, he should be removed as soon as possible. LEaving is what he is hoping for and what he think we'll do, I think he still believes that and sees the U.S and the U.N as being non comitted. We've unfortunately given him every reason to believe that until now.
BTW I don't think it's a lack of patience at all. Remember a couple months back. We were debating Powell convincing George to go to the U.N for a second resolution. In highinsight I don't think he should have. The cries of unilateralism then would have been astounding.
has allowed the French and Germans to steal the thunder in this abominable "Almost" War with Iraq. I am betting that he will go, and I think that if he is to go AT ALL, he should make his move NOW, for maximum effect and surprise.
We should have skipped the U.N a month ago for real surprise. We couldn't go though because of our other allies. It's a complex issue no doubt. I am tired though of people holding France and Russia as moral beacons. I read another story today on what France has been selling Iraq in violation of UN sanctions. Some say we are worried about upsetting our allies. I think we ought to look again at what defines Ally.
The only reason I doubt he wouldn't Bill is because of the inspectors and press there. He has to get them out in time. (The human shields can stay)
I heard today some of the strategy, (which drives me nuts when I see it)
It won't be ariel bombardment for months before we go in. It will be coordinated attacks with air/arty in a lightining quick overwhelm mode. I just hope we get through it with as few casualties as possible.
"As a concerned American citizen, I apologize to President Bush because my remark was disrespectful. I feel that whoever holds that office should be treated with the utmost respect."
"Radio stations: Please play our music again. I didn't mean it.
I'm never holding an opinion again. Never, ever,ever....
If they actually sing C & W music. These days, just about anything passes for C & W music.
I would call it Country, but I don't listen to country so I don't know if true Country fans would consider it country.
It just goes to show that sex and violence does sell. I wonder where they'd be if they're breakthough attempt hadn't been a song about killing someone.
Gee Naradar, I hadn't heard of any hangings for going to a protest. Perhaps you have a link to a story about that.
Is someone opressing your right to speak ? For all the whining I hear about people supposedly having their right to speak or demonstrate taken away I haven't seen it. Are there consequences for words ? You bet, freedom is a two way street my friend. When Chrissy Hines says "I hope the muslim's win" or "We deserve to get bombed" She's free to say it as I am to take offense and not purchase records or concert tickets. Nobody is stopping them from saying it.
It's o.k to boycott or criticize if someone calls for a boycott of the boy scouts, ROTC on campus, Augusta, meat, shade grown coffee, prayer in school, or even stupid statements politicians make. Then it's o.k and oh so noble. If someone is offended by the remarks that a Hollidiot makes and decides to boycott their product or criticize they are accused of stifling free speech ? They can make whatever statements they want or do what they wish. I am just as free to decide to spend my money and time on other artisits etc. It's called freedom and it's a pretty cool thing.
Is someone stopping them from saying it because they aren't on a podium at the oscar's ?
It's market driven Crabs and many people, even ones that might agree with them don't care to listen to a 30 second political speech by Sean Penn or Susan Sarandon. They watch to see what they are wearing and see who wins the major categories. I haven't watched an awards show for years. They're too long, too boring, too political, and frankly so self absorbed they make me want to gag. There isn't another industry that pats themselves on the back as often as they do.
But they are free to say what they want and the people who run the Oscars are free to have whom they want.
“There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son] personally supervise these murders.”
This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by researchers from Indict — the organisation I chair — to provide evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken in the past two weeks.
Another witness told us about practices of the security services towards women: “Women were suspended by their hair as their families watched; men were forced to watch as their wives were raped . . . women were suspended by their legs while they were menstruating until their periods were over, a procedure designed to cause humiliation.”
The accounts Indict has heard over the past six years are disgusting and horrifying. Our task is not merely passively to record what we are told but to challenge it as well, so that the evidence we produce is of the highest quality. All witnesses swear that their statements are true and sign them.
For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam’s Iraq.
Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq — which some people still claim are illegal — the Kurds and the Shia would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.
For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This list includes far more than the gassing of 5,000 in Halabja and other villages in 1988. It includes serial war crimes during the Iran-Iraq war; the genocidal Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in 1987-88; the invasion of Kuwait and the killing of more than 1,000 Kuwaiti civilians; the violent suppression, which I witnessed, of the 1991 Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s, which ethnically cleansed thousands of Shias; and the summary executions of thousands of political opponents.
Many Iraqis wonder why the world applauded the military intervention that eventually rescued the Cambodians from Pol Pot and the Ugandans from Idi Amin when these took place without UN help. They ask why the world has ignored the crimes against them?
All these crimes have been recorded in detail by the UN, the US, Kuwaiti, British, Iranian and other Governments and groups such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and Indict. Yet the Security Council has failed to set up a war crimes tribunal on Iraq because of opposition from France, China and Russia. As a result, no Iraqi official has ever been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century. I have said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war. But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.
I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or morality. But I know one thing. This evil, fascist regime must come to an end. With or without the help of the Security Council, and with or without the backing of the Labour Party in the House of Commons tonight.
The Dixie Chicks thing. I would agree a bit that people are probably taking it too far but it's not up to me to decide what offends them. Again it's part of freedom and the chicks are free to say what they want and nobody is stopping them. It's a myth that someone boycotting or destroying the albums are somehow taking away their free speech. The people protesting or disagreeing are simply excercizing their right to free speech. When things like the boy scout issue came up plenty of people stopped supporting them. That was their right since they disagreed. Nobody was taking away the scout's right to decide (although they tried) And they had to weigh the costs/benefits to taking that stance. They knew they'd lose and gain some support.
Same with artists/actors etc. They can take ads out in every paper, they can speak at every event and tell us how bad we and our president are. Hell they can go to Iraq ala Jane Fonda for all I care. But I won't be giving them a nickel if I find it offensive.
I've never heard people call boycotts or consequences blacklisting or McCarthyites until now. And I'm not saying you at all here. I just find it odd that boycotts seem to be o.k on one side and if they are disagreed with they are omehow taking freedoms away ? I'm not buying it.
A question for you though. Do you think she would have said it if they were giving a concert in Texas ?
Agreed. BTW in 98' France wanted to declare Iraq in compliance. I wonder why they are worried about chem's now ? It's good lip service from them and an attempt to save face. If he did use chem/bio it would be too late for them to do anything to help anyways with logistics etc. because it's already there. It's a hollow threat. Well unless of course France would like to quit selling them weaposn and mig parts. We'd appreciate that.
"I would agree a bit that people are probably taking it too far but it's not up to me to decide what offends them."
From what I've heard, it's radio stations that are sponsoring this campaign against the Dixie Chicks -- destryoing CDs or boycotting the music, and the like. It's inexpensive publicity for the stations.
They get listeners and make money by playing their music, and then they get publicity by destroying it in public.
Bizarre things that kinda suit the times we live in. If you love irony, it doesn't get any better than that.
Just because I am acknowledging that there are warmongers, doesn't mean that I am calling anyone that supports military action a warmonger, but thank you for jumping to that conclusion.
"Why, of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?
Naturally, the common people don't want war, neither in Russia, nor England, nor for that matter, Germany. That is understood, but after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simpler matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
Hermann Goering Long time Nazi, Reichmarshall, and heir-apparent to Hitler, Statement made while imprisoned at Nuremberg after WWII. Goering was sentenced to death by hanging for war crimes, but committed suicide first.
I was sitting in Mauer Brothers Bar in Elba, MN one afternoon after fishing the Whitewater River.
There was a drunk guy stumbling around gladhanding everyone in the place. While he was there he bought two large jars of what looked like pickled pig's feet in one and some other piece of animal byproduct in another.
"He really likes the pickled products," said the bartender.
Before he left, someone bought him a drink called a Dead Nazi.
Is he stupid or crazy ? Maybe both ?
Bill,
That's been another issue I've had with the U.N. They take so long to do anything. Look at the inspections. It took months to get inspectors back in. We told Saddamn we were coming for months. David Spade put it best. He said it's like a dad saying to his kid. Junior, I'm gonna search your room for pot in 2 months. I better not find it,,and don't take it over to your friend Syria's house.
I'm not a betting man, but if I were I'd plunk down alot of myt money in Vegas that they are there. Hell theirs reports that scuds have been photographed, scuds he's not supposed to have. They've found stuff each week, he has them, I'd bet all my money he does.
I think Saddamn has had 12 years. I think if the U.N is unwilling once again to stand by and do nothing as they did in Rwanda and Kosovo that we should. Iraq's people have had enough of this douchebag, he should be removed as soon as possible. LEaving is what he is hoping for and what he think we'll do, I think he still believes that and sees the U.S and the U.N as being non comitted. We've unfortunately given him every reason to believe that until now.
Bill, I'm confused, perhaps you could clarify something. One post you said
"And by the way Rob... I am truly FOR GDUbbya moving against Iraq, and NOW"
And then you said.
"And don't forget... I am still against this War in Iraq.
I mean that...really."
I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything but can you explain it better for me what you mean.
Thanks.
BTW I don't think it's a lack of patience at all. Remember a couple months back. We were debating Powell convincing George to go to the U.N for a second resolution. In highinsight I don't think he should have. The cries of unilateralism then would have been astounding.
We should have skipped the U.N a month ago for real surprise. We couldn't go though because of our other allies. It's a complex issue no doubt. I am tired though of people holding France and Russia as moral beacons. I read another story today on what France has been selling Iraq in violation of UN sanctions. Some say we are worried about upsetting our allies. I think we ought to look again at what defines Ally.
It would be a good time if he were going to give the orders.
There's so much politics though with other countries I doubt it though. One of the disadvantages of larger coalitions.
The only reason I doubt he wouldn't Bill is because of the inspectors and press there. He has to get them out in time. (The human shields can stay)
I heard today some of the strategy, (which drives me nuts when I see it)
It won't be ariel bombardment for months before we go in. It will be coordinated attacks with air/arty in a lightining quick overwhelm mode. I just hope we get through it with as few casualties as possible.
I say we are going in before the end of next week.
That's one scared Dixie Chick
"As a concerned American citizen, I apologize to President Bush because my remark was disrespectful. I feel that whoever holds that office should be treated with the utmost respect."
"Radio stations: Please play our music again. I didn't mean it.
I'm never holding an opinion again. Never, ever,ever....
And those Europeans? -- They're assholes!!"
LOL
She needs to stick with making bad music.
Actually, I didn't hear whatever comment it is she made.
Triple Tre JOE
Whatever she said, she evidently felt she had to apologize before the CDs started burning.
For the C & W stations in the rural areas, it's probably too late already.
The Chicks are out of the song rotation.
I'm just glad I've never said something stupid, that I wish I could take back.
:-)
They'll be another one of those acts that are gone before I have heard enough to form an opinion about them.
They've already been around longer than I ever thought they would.
I'll take your word for it. I probably haven't missed much.
Criticizing a Republican president must be doomsday for a C & W act.
If they actually sing C & W music. These days, just about anything passes for C & W music.
Meryl Haggard says a lot of it is rock 'n' roll strained through cheesecloth.
If they actually sing C & W music. These days, just about anything passes for C & W music.
I would call it Country, but I don't listen to country so I don't know if true Country fans would consider it country.
It just goes to show that sex and violence does sell. I wonder where they'd be if they're breakthough attempt hadn't been a song about killing someone.
They sang a song about killing someone?
Ever heard "Frankie and Johnnie?" People have been offed in song for as long as they've put together music.
Their statement, to a British audience, was:
Just so you know, we're ashamed that President Bush is from Texas.
Texas is PISSED!
They sang a song about killing someone?
Yeah, "Goodbye Earl". Something about killing an abusive husband/boyfriend.
T&A, always sells.
They're nasty
Ever heard "Frankie and Johnnie?
I've heard of it but don't know the lyrics. I'll have to look it up.
Nasty always sells.
I meant nasty as in not all that attractive.
So someone with what you would consider having average looks is now "nasty?" I've seen pictures of them. They look just fine.
Man, you're one catty dude, JT.
Sorry, they're ugly IMHO.
Time to lynch that man Colin Powell for getting us into this mess.
Time to string up the Dixie Chicks for exercising their right to speak.
As for me - I better hide and keep my identity secretive.
Since L2F may find this offensive, I will relieve myself with this one venting .
The fate of anti-war proponents in this US of A
Nice, very nice
Gee Naradar, I hadn't heard of any hangings for going to a protest. Perhaps you have a link to a story about that.
Is someone opressing your right to speak ? For all the whining I hear about people supposedly having their right to speak or demonstrate taken away I haven't seen it. Are there consequences for words ? You bet, freedom is a two way street my friend. When Chrissy Hines says "I hope the muslim's win" or "We deserve to get bombed" She's free to say it as I am to take offense and not purchase records or concert tickets. Nobody is stopping them from saying it.
It's o.k to boycott or criticize if someone calls for a boycott of the boy scouts, ROTC on campus, Augusta, meat, shade grown coffee, prayer in school, or even stupid statements politicians make. Then it's o.k and oh so noble. If someone is offended by the remarks that a Hollidiot makes and decides to boycott their product or criticize they are accused of stifling free speech ? They can make whatever statements they want or do what they wish. I am just as free to decide to spend my money and time on other artisits etc. It's called freedom and it's a pretty cool thing.
just to clear up a few things...
The Dixie Chicks play a combination of pop and bluegrass and their big hit is a bluegrassed up version of the Fleetwood Mac song "Landslide"
and The Pretenders leader is named Chrissy Hynde
actually, several actors have been uninvited to participate in the Oscars
next stop...another McCarthyesque blacklist
crabgrass 3/17/03 4:23pm
Is someone stopping them from saying it because they aren't on a podium at the oscar's ?
It's market driven Crabs and many people, even ones that might agree with them don't care to listen to a 30 second political speech by Sean Penn or Susan Sarandon. They watch to see what they are wearing and see who wins the major categories. I haven't watched an awards show for years. They're too long, too boring, too political, and frankly so self absorbed they make me want to gag. There isn't another industry that pats themselves on the back as often as they do.
But they are free to say what they want and the people who run the Oscars are free to have whom they want.
BTW Which actors ? Do you have a link or list ?
See men shredded, then say you don't back war
By Ann Clwyd
“There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son] personally supervise these murders.”
This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by researchers from Indict — the organisation I chair — to provide evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken in the past two weeks.
Another witness told us about practices of the security services towards women: “Women were suspended by their hair as their families watched; men were forced to watch as their wives were raped . . . women were suspended by their legs while they were menstruating until their periods were over, a procedure designed to cause humiliation.”
The accounts Indict has heard over the past six years are disgusting and horrifying. Our task is not merely passively to record what we are told but to challenge it as well, so that the evidence we produce is of the highest quality. All witnesses swear that their statements are true and sign them.
For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam’s Iraq.
Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq — which some people still claim are illegal — the Kurds and the Shia would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.
For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This list includes far more than the gassing of 5,000 in Halabja and other villages in 1988. It includes serial war crimes during the Iran-Iraq war; the genocidal Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in 1987-88; the invasion of Kuwait and the killing of more than 1,000 Kuwaiti civilians; the violent suppression, which I witnessed, of the 1991 Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s, which ethnically cleansed thousands of Shias; and the summary executions of thousands of political opponents.
Many Iraqis wonder why the world applauded the military intervention that eventually rescued the Cambodians from Pol Pot and the Ugandans from Idi Amin when these took place without UN help. They ask why the world has ignored the crimes against them?
All these crimes have been recorded in detail by the UN, the US, Kuwaiti, British, Iranian and other Governments and groups such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and Indict. Yet the Security Council has failed to set up a war crimes tribunal on Iraq because of opposition from France, China and Russia. As a result, no Iraqi official has ever been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century. I have said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war. But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.
I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or morality. But I know one thing. This evil, fascist regime must come to an end. With or without the help of the Security Council, and with or without the backing of the Labour Party in the House of Commons tonight.
The author is Labour MP for Cynon Valley.
I just want to take a count of how many of the warmongers in here feel safer now that we are going to war.
I think we are at code orange, better start duct-taping the windows, ALL the windows. Remember, it has to be air tight to be effective.
I'll feel safer once Saddam has a bullet in his head.
A feeling of safety like we had before 9/11 will never be attained, war or not.
tim_the_hunter 3/18/03 8:48am
Tim,
Since you feel that anyone in favor of taking action is a warmonger there's no point in trying to debate reasonably with you.
Bill,
The Dixie Chicks thing. I would agree a bit that people are probably taking it too far but it's not up to me to decide what offends them. Again it's part of freedom and the chicks are free to say what they want and nobody is stopping them. It's a myth that someone boycotting or destroying the albums are somehow taking away their free speech. The people protesting or disagreeing are simply excercizing their right to free speech. When things like the boy scout issue came up plenty of people stopped supporting them. That was their right since they disagreed. Nobody was taking away the scout's right to decide (although they tried) And they had to weigh the costs/benefits to taking that stance. They knew they'd lose and gain some support.
Same with artists/actors etc. They can take ads out in every paper, they can speak at every event and tell us how bad we and our president are. Hell they can go to Iraq ala Jane Fonda for all I care. But I won't be giving them a nickel if I find it offensive.
I've never heard people call boycotts or consequences blacklisting or McCarthyites until now. And I'm not saying you at all here. I just find it odd that boycotts seem to be o.k on one side and if they are disagreed with they are omehow taking freedoms away ? I'm not buying it.
A question for you though. Do you think she would have said it if they were giving a concert in Texas ?
'Bill - Fold' 3/18/03 8:07am
Agreed. BTW in 98' France wanted to declare Iraq in compliance. I wonder why they are worried about chem's now ? It's good lip service from them and an attempt to save face. If he did use chem/bio it would be too late for them to do anything to help anyways with logistics etc. because it's already there. It's a hollow threat. Well unless of course France would like to quit selling them weaposn and mig parts. We'd appreciate that.
Bill,
"I would agree a bit that people are probably taking it too far but it's not up to me to decide what offends them."
From what I've heard, it's radio stations that are sponsoring this campaign against the Dixie Chicks -- destryoing CDs or boycotting the music, and the like. It's inexpensive publicity for the stations.
They get listeners and make money by playing their music, and then they get publicity by destroying it in public.
Bizarre things that kinda suit the times we live in. If you love irony, it doesn't get any better than that.
May this be as quick and bloodless as is possible.
Just because I am acknowledging that there are warmongers, doesn't mean that I am calling anyone that supports military action a warmonger, but thank you for jumping to that conclusion.
"Why, of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?
Naturally, the common people don't want war, neither in Russia, nor England, nor for that matter, Germany. That is understood, but after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simpler matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
Hermann Goering
Long time Nazi, Reichmarshall, and heir-apparent to Hitler, Statement made while imprisoned at Nuremberg after WWII. Goering was sentenced to death by hanging for war crimes, but committed suicide first.
A feeling of safety like we had before 9/11 will never be attained, war or not.
If you lie to yourself enough you might. I mean it worked before 9/11. Why not try it again?
So you're comparing the President of the United States to Herman Goering ?
In some ways. Hey, if the shoe fits...
Oh O.K.
Please educate me, Tim, on how you are able to compare our President to Herman Goering?
It's all in the chin. And how they say "nuclear".
If there are any old Nazis who surf the Internet they should be proud how many there are now in there numbers.
Everyone's a Nazi here. They might think there's more now than in WWII.
I was sitting in Mauer Brothers Bar in Elba, MN one afternoon after fishing the Whitewater River.
There was a drunk guy stumbling around gladhanding everyone in the place. While he was there he bought two large jars of what looked like pickled pig's feet in one and some other piece of animal byproduct in another.
"He really likes the pickled products," said the bartender.
Before he left, someone bought him a drink called a Dead Nazi.
They set it on fire before he drank it.
Bill,
LOL! Don't forget armour.
I doubt she'd have said it here too.
She was playing to her audience.
Exactly. I wonder if she thought it would make the news here ?
"She was playing to her audience. "
And the radio stations trashing the CDs are playing to theirs'.
Capitalism at work.