SAFWAN, Iraq - U.S. Marines hauled down giant street portraits of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) in a screeching pop of metal and bolts Friday, telling nervous residents of this southern Iraqi town that "Saddam is done."
Milling crowds of men and boys watched as the Marines attached ropes on the front of their Jeeps to one portrait and then backed up, peeling the Iraqi leader's black-and-white metal image off a frame. Some locals briefly joined Maj. David "Bull" Gurfein in a new cheer.
"Iraqis! Iraqis! Iraqis!" Gurfein yelled, pumping his fist in the air.
"We wanted to send a message that Saddam is done," said Gurfein, a New York native in the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force. "People are scared to show a lot of emotion. That's why we wanted to show them this time we're here, and Saddam is done."
The Marines arrived in Safwan, just across the Kuwait border, after Cobra attack helicopters, attack jets, tanks, 155 mm howitzers and sharpshooters cleared the way along Route 80, the main road into Iraq (news - web sites).
Safwan, 375 miles south of Baghdad, is a poor, dirty, wrecked town pocked by shrapnel from the last Gulf war (news - web sites). Iraqi forces in the area sporadically fired mortars and guns for hours Thursday and Friday. Most townspeople hid, although residents brought forth a wounded little girl, her palm bleeding after the new fighting. Another man said his wife was shot in the leg by the Americans.
A few men and boys ventured out, putting makeshift white flags on their pickup trucks or waving white T-shirts out truck windows.
"Americans very good," Ali Khemy said. "Iraq wants to be free."
Some chanted, "Ameriki! Ameriki!"
Many others in the starving town just patted their stomachs and raised their hands, begging for food.
A man identifying himself only as Abdullah welcomed the arrival of the U.S. troops: "Saddam Hussein is no good. Saddam Hussein a butcher."
An old woman shrouded in black — one of the very few women outside — knelt toward the feet of Americans, embracing an American woman. A younger man with her pulled her away, giving her a warning sign by sliding his finger across his throat.
In 1991, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died after prematurely celebrating what they believed was their liberation from Saddam after the Gulf War. Some even pulled down a few pictures of Saddam then — only to be killed by Iraqi forces.
Gurfein playfully traded pats with a disabled man and turned down a dinner invitation from townspeople.
"Friend, friend," he told them in Arabic learned in the first Gulf War.
"We stopped in Kuwait that time," he said. "We were all ready to come up there then, and we never did."
The townspeople seemed grateful this time.
"No Saddam Hussein!" one young man in headscarf told Gurfein. "Bush!"
I hope Saddink isn't holding his loyal troops in Baghdad and try to turn it into urban warfare. It will increase casualties on all sides. As pointed out in the story above they need to know we aren't leaiving. Once they do many will surrender when they know Saddamn is gone for good. Let's hope the troops still loyal start having second thoughts about it after what they are seeing.
Actually, I am very interested to see what the historical ramifications of this war will be. At times I find it fascinating to see the live coverage. Some of the footage today was great in that it gave you a sense of what was going on. Along with that though, it gives you pause to think about what this all means. Yes, there are people dying out there. It is unfortunate but seemingly necessary. The advancement of weapon technology makes me somewhat fearful too. Back in the first gulf war, the bombs were laser guided, and we got to see the footage of them hitting their targets. Now, they are gps guided. The same system that geocachers are using for fun and enjoyment is being used to guide weapons. We haven't even gotten into the chemical and biological weapons yet either. Who knows what footage we'll be able to see once the fighting is done, and we can review what the embedded reporters can show us.
I hope that after this, we can turn our attention to Al-Qaeda and deal with them once and for all. That we can diplomatically deal with North Korea. And that we can work on attaining world peace. The coverage is making war this much more real, and I think it's much more scary. I don't want to have to go through this again, and I don't want my children or grandchildren to go through this. I hope that this war, experiencing it and looking back on it, will help us work harder towards peace throughout the world.
The necessity and prudence ot the war is another debate.
I just wonder if sometimes we forget to consider the tragedy and the utter failure that war represents. High tech weaponry and GPS guided bombs don't impress me. In a way, they represent failure, too.
Geez Rick, You didn't know Nick Raleigh was out of prison?
High tech laser and gps guided weapons don't impress you? How about carpet bombing with plain old gravity bombs? Would that be better? Yeah I know. Never ending peace talks, never ending resolutions with murderous dictators who couldn't care less is still preferable.
Jacques Chirac, French president, on Friday ended the fragile truce at the European Union summit in Brussels with a strong attack on the "illegal" US-British attack on Iraq. Advertisement
Mr Chirac signalled that France would campaign through the United Nations to keep any American or British involvement in the running of postwar Iraq to a minimum.
Just hours after Tony Blair, British prime minister, called for a new UN resolution on the reconstruction of Iraq, Mr Chirac said France would not accept a dominant US and British role in such efforts.
France will not accept a resolution that would legitimise military intervention and give the US and British the powers of administration in Iraq, he said.
So France wants us to go in, free Iraq (with our men, equipment and blood) and then just give up any say in what goes on??? Two words for you Mr. Chickenshit.... FUCK YOU!
Yeah, Torpedo, I understand. I know, for you, watching US forces in full Shock and Awe on a Friday night probably makes you feel like a BIG MAN. Makes you want to go out tonight and kick some ass.
But you know, resistance by Iraq is starting to look pathetic.
This is a region of the world where honor and dignity are very important.
A humiliation of huge proportions makes postwar a difficult challenge. Allied forces better they use discretion.
Once we free Iraq and help them set up their government, I think it should be up to the Iraqi people who they want to help rebuild their country. France id just proving how washed up and irrelevant they really are. It really is quite pathetic to watch them puff up their chest and posture.
About 30 Iraqi troops, including a general, surrendered today to US forces of the 3rd Infantry Division as they overtook huge installation apparently used to produce chemical weapons in An Najaf, some 150 kilometers (90 miles) south of Baghdad.
One soldier was lightly wounded when a booby-trapped explosive went off as he was clearing the sheet metal-lined facility, which resembles the eery images of scientific facilities in World War II concentration camps.
The huge 100-acre complex, which is surrounded by a electrical fence, is perhaps the first illegal chemical plant to be uncovered by US troops in their current mission in Iraq. The surrounding barracks resemble an abandoned slum.
It wasn't immediately clear exactly which chemicals were being produced here, but clearly the Iraqis tried to camouflage the facility so it could not be photographed aerially, by swathing it in sand-cast walls to make it look like the surrounding desert.
Within minutes of our entry into the camp on Sunday afternoon, at least 30 Iraqi soldiers and their commanding officer of the rank of General, obeyed the instructions of US soldiers who called out from our jeep in loudspeakers for them to lie down on the ground, and put their hands above their heads to surrender.
I found this in the middle of an UPI report. It appears about half way through the article and should have been a headline story. I would like to see their video.
A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip"had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists.Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."
British troops outside Basra have discovered cruise missiles and warheads hidden inside fortified bunkers as part of a massive arsenal abandoned by Saddam Hussein's disintegrating southern army.
Cases of rockets, giant anti-shipping mines and other ammunition are piled from floor to ceiling in dozens of bunkers at what is marked on maps as the Az Zubaya Heliport.
The most disturbing find was two Russian-made Al-Harith anti-shipping cruise missiles, each 6m long and 1m in diameter, and nine warheads, hidden in two enormous reinforced concrete bunkers.
Another missile, as yet unidentified, was found still crated up at the rear of one of the bunkers.
Some of the boxes are clearly marked with the names of British manufacturers.
The scale and possible implications of the weapons find took British forces by surprise and raised fresh questions about the extent of the Iraqi war machine and the ability of weapons inspectors to cope with the task of scouring such a vast country for prohibited ordinance.
The discovery of the missiles - date-marked 2002 - came as British troops from the Black Watch Regiment fought to secure the area around Iraqi's second city, Basra, in preparation for the capture of the city.
The vast complex, surrounded by chainlink fence and barbed wire, stands to the southwest of the town, defended by a network of earth works and with tanks and other armoured vehicles dug in to the surrounding area.
But the defenders have fled after coming under attack from coalition forces.
Outside the perimeter fence are about 40 bunkers packed with a mixture of RPGs and other ammunition. Inside, 22 larger fortified bunkers contain larger weaponry including the Al-Harith missiles.
The missiles, with Al-Harith 2002 stencilled in red paint on the side, and covered with cyrillic writing, were housed in 20-m-long concrete bunkers, 8m high, buried under earth and protected by sliding steel double doors 30cm thick.
Painted grey, the missiles have two wings, each about 60cm in span and three tail fins of a similar size. There was no indication of the nature of the warheads fitted and experts have been called in to examine the find.
Also housed inside the reinforced bunkers were what appeared to be large anti-shipping mines, 1m in diameter, and a host of other munitions.
On one box, written in English, were the words: "Contract AS Navy. 5/1980 Iran."
Corporal Steven Airzee said: "The initial sight was a shock. We were trying to figure out what they were. You have to wonder whether the weapons inspectors have been there because they looked pretty big."
The entrance to the heliport is decorated with a picture of Saddam Hussein in military uniform.
The area is surrounded by wrecked vehicles and abandoned sandbagged fox holes, some flying white flags, and is overlooked by a network of watch towers.
There are fears that weapons may have been taken from some of the bunkers which lie open outside the perimeter fence.
Lieutenant Angus Watson said they found the haul when they arrived last night.
"The complex is massive and we were surprised to find a lot of the kit intact, easily enough for a whole brigade," he said.
They also discovered hundreds of leaflets lying on the floor, dropped by coalition planes, urging the defenders to surrender. The leaflets, and evidence of an aerial or artillery attack, appear to have persuaded the defenders to abandon their posts without a fight.
I saw this scroll across the bottom of Fox News broadcast. Ansar Al Islam members killed during bombing raids. Ansar Al Islam is connected to Al Queda. Can anyone confirm this? It would prove the Iraq Al Queda connection.
SULAYMANIYAH, Iraq - The United States fired five missiles at the base of an al-Qaida linked group in the mountains of northeastern Iraq, Kurdish political and military officials said, combining its war against Saddam Hussein with its fight against alleged terrorists.
A high-level official of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, speaking on condition of anonymity, also said a ground offensive against Ansar al Islam, utilizing Kurdish forces, was being prepared and could start hours after the air strikes. A Kurdish military official, also refusing to be named, confirmed the report.
U.S. Gen. Tommy Franks confirmed U.S. missile attacks on a camp of the al-Qaida-linked militant group Ansar al-Islam, in northern Iraq Friday night. Kurdish officials in the region said at least 100 people died in the bombardment.
Ansar al-Islam, a militant Islamic group with 700 hardcore members and alleged ties to both al-Qaida and Saddam Hussein's government, has said it has been involved in killing dozens or Kurdish officials or soldiers over since it became active in the Fall of 2001.
Civilians have often died or been wounded in Ansar's suicide bombings, ambushes and assassinations, centered around the 18 villages it controls near the city of Halabja next to the Iranian border.
The attack on Ansar, which occurred shortly before midnight Friday local time, comes as the U.S. prepares to step up a northern front against Saddam's government to take control of the oil-rich cities of Kirkuk and Mosul.
Many Kurdish officials have feared Ansar could disrupt any American presence here. Several weeks ago, Kurdish counterterrorism officials spotted carloads of alleged Ansar militants near sites said to be visited by the U.S. clandestine operatives active in the autonomous Kurdish north of Iraq.
Kurds say Ansar's strategic Biyare stronghold in the mountains, with sympathetic Islamic groups on each side, the Zagros Mountains to the rear and a narrow, heavily guarded pass in the front made a ground assault unfeasible without air support.
Kurdish officials have often accused Ansar of harboring Afghan-trained members of al-Qaida.
Terrorism is an international problem," said Barham Salih, prime minister of the Patriotic Union-controlled section of northern Iraq. "We need international help in combating Ansar."
In a February address to the U.N. Security Council, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell alleged that Ansar was the missing link tying al-Qaida to Saddam's regime.
On Friday, Kurdish Peshmerga militia fighters and heavily armed Special Forces poured into the area near Halabja.
"They are very intelligent," Bafel Talabani, a Kurdish counterterrorism official, told The Associated Press. "Their explosives devices are very professional. They have good equipment. Their operations are very well done."
Despite the allegations against Ansar, many in the Patriotic Union have recently acknowledged they may have played a role in allowing to set up in the area.
In a press conference last month, Patriotic Union leader Jalal Talabani said that he made a mistake in allowing a predecessor group to Ansar relocate to Biyare after the Kurdistan Democratic Party in the western half of the autonomous Kurdish zone kicked it out.
The International Crisis Group, a Belgium-based think tank, said in a Feb. 7 report that Ansar is a local group with questionable ties to international terrorism. "Having lost a number of its fighters in clashes with Ansar al-Islam, it is not surprising that the PUK has sought to emphasize the group's putative terrorist connections," the report said.
But, the report adds, "There is no hard evidence to suggest that Ansar al-Islam is more than a minor irritant in local Kurdish politics."
Mostafa Said Qader, the top Kurdish military commnader in the northern city of Sulaymaniyah:
At 12:30 am, the United States launched 40 Tomahawk cruise missles at the villages of Qhormal, Biyare and Sargat. Sargat was the site of what U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell called a terrorist poison and explosives training center and a deadly link in a "sinister nexus" binding Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida.
Qader said the rockets came from the Red Sea.
He said that 8 a.m. this morning launched two more missiles at the Ansar al Islam center.
"The missiles hit their targets. There are many killed and injured, but we cannot say exactly how many. According to our information, it is more than 100. He said that some of the corpses were taken to Halabja and others were taken to Iran."
He said that 120 families affiliated with the Ansar group as well as another group with similar Islamic fundamentalist views were hit.
"There will be further bombardments,"
Local authorities warned the members of the group to leave before the attacks.
"We are very happy to get rid of these terrorists," Qader said. "We have tried a lot to get them to abandon their terrorist acts....They caused instability in our country and their destrictuion is a cause for happinesss."
Meanwhile, hundreds of refugees started to flee the area on foot and by tractor down the narrow dirt country roads. Walking from Qormal to Sadid Saddiq. Carrying clothes on their backs, food and few supplies.
"The only speaker who received a hostile reception was N. Ruby Zigrino, a Muslim from Minneapolis. She was initially cheered when she said she supports "ousting a tyrant regime."'
"But she then read passages from the Qur'an, suggested that a new Marshall Plan will be needed in Iraq, and said administration officials should study foreign-policy failures to avoid repeating them."
Her listeners responded with boos and shouts of "Screw Muslims!" "Screw the Qur'an!" and "Go home!"
I'm sure many people in the audience were angry about what went on at the Wellstone memorial service.
The story mentions conflicting attendance figures. That seems to be quite a preoccupation with anyone who throws a rally. No one ever seems to agree.
Another poster ran one of my favorite scenes from Shakespeare. Henry V was pumping up the troops. Before anyone goes into battle, there's gotta be someone like Henry around:
...he which hath no stomach to this fight, Let him depart; his passport shall be made, And crowns for convoy put into his purse; We would not die in that man's company That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is called the feast of Crispian: He that outlives this day, and comes safe home, Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named, And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age, Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours, And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:' Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars. And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages What feats he did that day: then shall our names. Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter, Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester, Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son; And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by, From this day to the ending of the world, But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he to-day that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile, This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed Shall think themselves accursed they were not here, And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.
Crispian was the patron saint of shoemakers. Maybe a lot of shoemakers in Henry's army. Here they were. Other shomakers had the day off. At home, feasting and getting drunk.
If you come home alive, Henry says, there's glory in it for you. If you don't. Well, we'll remember you on St. Crispian's Day.
But I wonder if St. Crispian had any thoughts. Keep your dreams of glory and conquest to yourself, he might have said. Keep me out of it.
SCOTTISH troops from the Black Watch battle group yesterday discovered a huge cache of weapons which could show that Saddam Hussein's regime is in breach of UN sanctions.
Two Al Harith anti-ship cruise missiles supplied last year by Russiaand explosive components from a Hampshire firm were discovered at a bunker complex sited at the As Zubayr civilian heliport south of Basra, in southern Iraq.
The soldiers found 24 reinforced underground bunkers and 48 arms storage sheds containing hundreds of thousands of rocket propelled grenades, landmines, machine gun am-munition, fuses, and detonators, as well as the missiles.
Most of the site has been cordoned off until experts arrive to clear booby traps and use detectors to see if anything more sinister is hidden in the depot.
One Al Harith, a long-range sea-skimming missile which could threaten allied warships in the Gulf, was on a stand awaiting the fitting of its rocket motor. Someone had drawn a shark's face on its warhead. Another was still in its crate in another bunker.
Both weapons had Russian Cyrillic characters stencilled on their sides and were dated 2002. A strict UN arms embargo on Iraq has been enforced since 1991.
The British-made explosive components, believed to be fuses for detonators, were in small boxes stamped "Wallop Industries Limited, Middle Wallop, Hampshire" and carried danger signs and a prohibition on the product being carried by air. There were no dates on the cases.
In the bunker containing the exposed Al Harith, there was also a larger missile, between 30 and 40ft long, still in its shipping container. This was being left for bomb disposal teams. It also had Russian lettering.
Lieutenant Angus Watson, from Methil, Fife, who was in charge of the platoon which found the haul of high explosives, said: "There is enough kit here to outfit a brigade. It's an astonishing amount of ammunition. We also found deserted Iraqi tanks and personnel carriers when we moved in, but the garrison put here to defend the depot had legged it. The whole complex was wide open, with the doors of the hardened bunkers unlocked. Local civilians had begun looting."
The heliport perimeter was dotted with hastily-abandoned slit trenches and machine gun positions.
American psychological war-fare leaflets urging Iraqi troops not to resist littered the floors of most of the bunkers.
One leaflet showed Saddam and then a weeping mother with a dead child. Another depicted a chemical plant before and after it had been flattened by bombing.
"From the number of limpet mines and some of the other armaments found so far, it seems to have been a naval storage depot," said Lieutenant Watson. "It makes you wonder what chance a couple of hundred UN inspectors had of finding anything damning in a country this big. On the surface, this was, after all, supposed to be a civilian heliport."
The Herald attempted to contact Wallop Defence Systems yesterday, but there was no reply. According to its internet website, it is a division of FR Countermeasures.
Kampala - The Ugandan government has publicly declared its support for the US-led war in Iraq and said it will provide any support needed.
The "Cabinet, sitting under the chairmanship of (President) Yoweri Museveni, decided to support the US-led coalition war against Iraq," Foreign Minister James Waphakabulo said in a statement released late pn Saturday.
"Cabinet also decided that if the need arises Uganda will be ready to assist in any way possible."
It was not clear what support Uganda, a poor East African nation, could offer the US-led coalition.
The government supports the war because the "potential link between terrorism and weapons of mass destruction poses a very serious threat to international peace and security," the statement said.
Museveni, who seized power in 1986 after leading a five-year bush war, is regarded as a US ally and the United States is the second largest bilateral donor to Uganda.
Uganda is the third African country to publicly support US military action against Iraq, following Horn of Africa countries Ethiopia and Eritrea.
Ethiopia has granted US aircraft over-flight rights and access to its air bases.
A predominantly Christian nation in the Horn of Africa, Ethiopia has two main air bases, one outside the capital Addis Ababa and the other 320km to the east in Dire Dawa.
Eritrea, which gained independence from Ethiopia in 1993 after a 30-year guerrilla war, has offered the United States the use of Assab and Massawa ports - both of which are on the Red Sea - but it is not known whether this has been accepted. - Sapa-AP
Day One-Four Aircraft One CH-56 Helicopter lost to an accident in Northern Kuwait Two Royal Navy Sea King Helicopters collide over the sea One RAF Tornado GR-4 Shot down by friendly fire -------- Four aircraft lost
Personnel
Eight UK Soldiers killed in the CH-56 incident Four US Crew members of the CH-56 Six UK Crew members from the Seaking Accident One US Navy Crew member from the Seaking Accident Two US Soldiers killed in Southern iraq in combat One US Soldier killed in Grenade attack on 101 AD HQ Two RAF Crewmembers of the Tornado Killed Two UK Soldiers Missing in Southern Iraq Twelve US Soldiers missing at Naisrayah(Four killed five POW according to Iraq) Ten US Soldiers killed at fighting at naisrayah One US Soldier killed in Vehicle Accident on Sunday 49 Killed, Missing, POW (22 in accidents)
-Two bombs dropped in a compound with 120 Iraqi soldiers - Casualities unknown -Firefight at Um Qasr (shown on TV). Vehicle with 3 Iraqi dead claimed by Allied firing. -Firefight at Al Fawa (?) Six Iraqi soldiers claimed killed by the Royal Marines.
"My car is shrapnel and I’m basically embedded now. I don’t have much chance of going independent again and, to be honest, I don’t know if I want to."
You say: More join the coalition of unilateralism.
I got this information from a Boston Globe columnist. If hes out to lunch, then hes out to lunch. But I think before you start trumpeting coalition with every other post, maybe you ought to consider this.
"The reason the word ''coalition'' flows every five seconds from the lips of the Bush and Powell is because they do not want us to know that no such thing exists. The United States has 250,000 troops bearing down on Iraq. Britain is contributing 45,000. After that, the next greatest contributor is Australia, with a grand total of 2,000.
"After that, it is a gathering of street-corner brothers, the kind who are legendary for loudly threatening to start a fight, but at the moment of truth runs back to his buddies and screams, ''Fellas, hold me back! You gotta hold me back before I kill this guy!'' '
Poland, obviously to protect its $3.8 billion in US fighter-plane loans, will loan us a grand total of 200 soldiers. Spain was the third-loudest voice behind the United States and Britain in asking the UN to go to war. But faced with 81 percent opposition by Spaniards to the war, Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar committed only 200 troops to go only to Turkey. Fellas, hold me back! "
And the Turks have decided to do some premption of their own is in their national interests. I was expecting this to happen after the Iraqi thugs had been sent to seek solace with Allah.
"The reason the word ''coalition'' flows every five seconds from the lips of the Bush and Powell is because they do not want us to know that no such thing exists. The United States has 250,000 troops bearing down on Iraq. Britain is contributing 45,000. After that, the next greatest contributor is Australia, with a grand total of 2,000.
And if this was a "U.N. sanctioned" war, what would the make up of troops be? Answer, the same.
But you know, resistance by Iraq is starting to look pathetic.
I'm sure from your living room it does. I have news for you. If someone's trying to kill you, it's a big deal. Is it on a massive scale ? No but there is and will be fierce resistance in spots as we have seen. It will be overcome eventually and bypassing them instead of trying to go directly into cities right away is sound strategy. Hopefully at the lowest cost possible. They do have to be addressed eventually though. The progress made has been amazing. When you consider a few things. They knew we were coming, They've had a long time to prepare. There was no prepratory bombing. We've gone many many miles in 4 days. It's a logistical feat of epic proportions. We're now probably less than 50 miles from Bagdhad. We won't or shouldn't go in right away. But to say that resistance is looking pathetic is very simplistic IMO.
This is a region of the world where honor and dignity are very important.
Yes, well it is here too. I haven't seen too much "dignity" nor "honor" coming out of that region as of late, sorry I'm not buying it.
A humiliation of huge proportions makes postwar a difficult challenge. Allied forces better they use discretion.
What ? Easy to say if you aren't the guy who has to attack a posistion. You're kidding me Rick. Discretion ? WTF ? The restraint we've used is astounding. And I tell you what, the restraint we've shown is one of the reasons we are encountering pockets of resistance which will lead to more of our troops dying. Our efforts to be accurate and use restraint will be costly to us on the ground. (Not saying you're saying this Rick at all, just making a statement here) but the next time I hear ro see some idiot with a protest sign saying we're evil I think I'll puke. If we disregarded civilian casualties we would have bombed for days and weeks on end before sending troops in. We would bomb or send arty into buildings we took any fire from or suspected enemy posisition. Had we done so many more would surrender but the death toll on the civilians would be higher. The bravery and restraint is amazing.
Want to see the difference. Witness the Iraqi treatment of prisioners, witness the actions on the river bank for a suspected downed pilot. Witness the fake surrenders. (Which they did in 91') Witness the Iraqi's using the civilians and blending. Perhaps some will now get what type of regime we're dealing with.
Too many people have become used to "video game" wars or expect a drive through war with a McVictory in 2 days. It's not and never is. When you think of what's been accomplished thus far without bombing in advance it's amazing. There's going to be sad and tragic moments as we've seen. There's no joy in any of it. I agree that it's something to endure not celebrate but there's also a difference between celebration and noting the good job they're doing.
Well, my feeling about it has changed since Friday night when I said that. It seems to me that operations are much more complex and difficult then I thought then.
And, truth be told, neither you nor I know what those bombs are hitting in Baghdad. There needs to be a neutral party in the city to tell us.
And, truth be told, neither you nor I know what those bombs are hitting in Baghdad. There needs to be a neutral party in the city to tell us.
Why would that be ? I don't think the International Red Cross has made up casualty accounts do you ? When you look at the scale of the sorties. It's amazing that the numbers are as low as they are, not that it lessens the tragedy of lost life at all or in any way shape or form whatsoever! Much of that blame though can clearly be placed on Saddamn's feet. He's the one that put facilities in residential areas. There's a reason we don't have ammunition depositories in uptown Mpls. It's a bad idea and unhealthy for a populace. AA guns on hospitals is a bad idea as well. Not that Saddamn would harm his people. My point is that in order to complete the job you have to go in eventually and going in without taking those targets out would be very very costly and cost more civilian deaths in the long run. A long protacted battle in the city would be horrific on all sides. If we disregarded the populace the entire city would be in ruins. Many of the shops etc. are still open for business.
We went into this war expecting it to be a cakewalk and that we would be in Baghdad by today with the locals slobbering all over us. Welcome to reality. All the machismo from the military brass made even me think that the takeover of Southern Iraq would be a facile exercise – with the blood and gore in the assault on Baghdad. We are getting the crap whipped out of us even in trying to reach Baghdad. I am sure we will still make mincemeat of the Iraqis – but Christ, my tax money has been squandered. And all this unnecessary loss of life.
By the way, all this crocodile tears from Rum and gang about the Geneva Convention. Rummy declared that prisoners taken by the US in Afghanistan would not be accorded the protection of the Conventions. The suspected al-Qaeda captives, he declared, were "unlawful combatants"; and the US had the right to do with them what it wished. Yes, we are civilized and do not execute our prisoners because of the outcry from us ACLU members – but we set the precedent for thugs to follow. By the way, on the day the al-Qaeda prisoners were brought to Guantanamo Bay, Amnesty International declared the US in violation of the Geneva Conventions.
I cannot get over what eunuchs the US press has become. A bunch of emasculated parroters of the establishment line. The Chinese Xinhua agency exhibits more independence from the military brass. As if on cue, US television networks refrained from showing the images, and at least one major US daily, the Los Angeles Times, immediately withdrew the images from its website. And even in cyberspace, Yellowtimes.org, an anti-war 'guerrilla' webpage, posted photographs of the US POWs only to find its hosting provider shutting down its site!!
I was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam By Daniel Pepper (Filed: 23/03/2003)
I wanted to join the human shields in Baghdad because it was direct action which had a chance of bringing the anti-war movement to the forefront of world attention. It was inspiring: the human shield volunteers were making a sacrifice for their political views - much more of a personal investment than going to a demonstration in Washington or London. It was simple - you get on the bus and you represent yourself.
So that is exactly what I did on the morning of Saturday, January 25. I am a 23-year-old Jewish-American photographer living in Islington, north London. I had travelled in the Middle East before: as a student, I went to the Palestinian West Bank during the intifada. I also went to Afghanistan as a photographer for Newsweek.
The human shields appealed to my anti-war stance, but by the time I had left Baghdad five weeks later my views had changed drastically. I wouldn't say that I was exactly pro-war - no, I am ambivalent - but I have a strong desire to see Saddam removed.
We on the bus felt that we were sympathetic to the views of the Iraqi civilians, even though we didn't actually know any. The group was less interested in standing up for their rights than protesting against the US and UK governments.
I was shocked when I first met a pro-war Iraqi in Baghdad - a taxi driver taking me back to my hotel late at night. I explained that I was American and said, as we shields always did, "Bush bad, war bad, Iraq good". He looked at me with an expression of incredulity.
As he realised I was serious, he slowed down and started to speak in broken English about the evils of Saddam's regime. Until then I had only heard the President spoken of with respect, but now this guy was telling me how all of Iraq's oil money went into Saddam's pocket and that if you opposed him politically he would kill your whole family.
It scared the hell out of me. First I was thinking that maybe it was the secret police trying to trick me but later I got the impression that he wanted me to help him escape. I felt so bad. I told him: "Listen, I am just a schmuck from the United States, I am not with the UN, I'm not with the CIA - I just can't help you."
Of course I had read reports that Iraqis hated Saddam Hussein, but this was the real thing. Someone had explained it to me face to face. I told a few journalists who I knew. They said that this sort of thing often happened - spontaneous, emotional, and secretive outbursts imploring visitors to free them from Saddam's tyrannical Iraq.
I became increasingly concerned about the way the Iraqi regime was restricting the movement of the shields, so a few days later I left Baghdad for Jordan by taxi with five others. Once over the border we felt comfortable enough to ask our driver what he felt about the regime and the threat of an aerial bombardment.
"Don't you listen to Powell on Voice of America radio?" he said. "Of course the Americans don't want to bomb civilians. They want to bomb government and Saddam's palaces. We want America to bomb Saddam."
We just sat, listening, our mouths open wide. Jake, one of the others, just kept saying, "Oh my God" as the driver described the horrors of the regime. Jake was so shocked at how naive he had been. We all were. It hadn't occurred to anyone that the Iraqis might actually be pro-war.
The driver's most emphatic statement was: "All Iraqi people want this war." He seemed convinced that civilian casualties would be small; he had such enormous faith in the American war machine to follow through on its promises. Certainly more faith than any of us had.
Perhaps the most crushing thing we learned was that most ordinary Iraqis thought Saddam Hussein had paid us to come to protest in Iraq. Although we explained that this was categorically not the case, I don't think he believed us. Later he asked me: "Really, how much did Saddam pay you to come?"
It hit me on visceral and emotional levels: this was a real portrayal of Iraq life. After the first conversation, I completely rethought my view of the Iraqi situation. My understanding changed on intellectual, emotional, psychological levels. I remembered the experience of seeing Saddam's egomaniacal portraits everywhere for the past two weeks and tried to place myself in the shoes of someone who had been subjected to seeing them every day for the last 20 or so years.
Last Thursday night I went to photograph the anti-war rally in Parliament Square. Thousands of people were shouting "No war" but without thinking about the implications for Iraqis. Some of them were drinking, dancing to Samba music and sparring with the police. It was as if the protesters were talking about a different country where the ruling government is perfectly acceptable. It really upset me.
Anyone with half a brain must see that Saddam has to be taken out. It is extraordinarily ironic that the anti-war protesters are marching to defend a government which stops its people exercising that freedom.
Previous story: Born into an embattled world Next story: Good soldiers need not be the dogs of war
U.S. Marines Rip Down Saddam Portraits
Fri Mar 21, 9:41 AM ET
By ELLEN KNICKMEYER, Associated Press Writer
SAFWAN, Iraq - U.S. Marines hauled down giant street portraits of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) in a screeching pop of metal and bolts Friday, telling nervous residents of this southern Iraqi town that "Saddam is done."
Milling crowds of men and boys watched as the Marines attached ropes on the front of their Jeeps to one portrait and then backed up, peeling the Iraqi leader's black-and-white metal image off a frame. Some locals briefly joined Maj. David "Bull" Gurfein in a new cheer.
"Iraqis! Iraqis! Iraqis!" Gurfein yelled, pumping his fist in the air.
"We wanted to send a message that Saddam is done," said Gurfein, a New York native in the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force. "People are scared to show a lot of emotion. That's why we wanted to show them this time we're here, and Saddam is done."
The Marines arrived in Safwan, just across the Kuwait border, after Cobra attack helicopters, attack jets, tanks, 155 mm howitzers and sharpshooters cleared the way along Route 80, the main road into Iraq (news - web sites).
Safwan, 375 miles south of Baghdad, is a poor, dirty, wrecked town pocked by shrapnel from the last Gulf war (news - web sites). Iraqi forces in the area sporadically fired mortars and guns for hours Thursday and Friday. Most townspeople hid, although residents brought forth a wounded little girl, her palm bleeding after the new fighting. Another man said his wife was shot in the leg by the Americans.
A few men and boys ventured out, putting makeshift white flags on their pickup trucks or waving white T-shirts out truck windows.
"Americans very good," Ali Khemy said. "Iraq wants to be free."
Some chanted, "Ameriki! Ameriki!"
Many others in the starving town just patted their stomachs and raised their hands, begging for food.
A man identifying himself only as Abdullah welcomed the arrival of the U.S. troops: "Saddam Hussein is no good. Saddam Hussein a butcher."
An old woman shrouded in black — one of the very few women outside — knelt toward the feet of Americans, embracing an American woman. A younger man with her pulled her away, giving her a warning sign by sliding his finger across his throat.
In 1991, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died after prematurely celebrating what they believed was their liberation from Saddam after the Gulf War. Some even pulled down a few pictures of Saddam then — only to be killed by Iraqi forces.
Gurfein playfully traded pats with a disabled man and turned down a dinner invitation from townspeople.
"Friend, friend," he told them in Arabic learned in the first Gulf War.
"We stopped in Kuwait that time," he said. "We were all ready to come up there then, and we never did."
The townspeople seemed grateful this time.
"No Saddam Hussein!" one young man in headscarf told Gurfein. "Bush!"
I hope Saddink isn't holding his loyal troops in Baghdad and try to turn it into urban warfare. It will increase casualties on all sides. As pointed out in the story above they need to know we aren't leaiving. Once they do many will surrender when they know Saddamn is gone for good. Let's hope the troops still loyal start having second thoughts about it after what they are seeing.
"Whee, we get to see "shock and awe" today! Pass the popcorn."
I know you're kidding, but sadly, that seems to be the case in many instances.
I heard a radio broadcast of a "support the troops" gathering last night. It sounded like tailgaters.
People are dying.
People are dying.
People were dying before the war. Saddam was killing them.
Actually, I am very interested to see what the historical ramifications of this war will be. At times I find it fascinating to see the live coverage. Some of the footage today was great in that it gave you a sense of what was going on. Along with that though, it gives you pause to think about what this all means. Yes, there are people dying out there. It is unfortunate but seemingly necessary. The advancement of weapon technology makes me somewhat fearful too. Back in the first gulf war, the bombs were laser guided, and we got to see the footage of them hitting their targets. Now, they are gps guided. The same system that geocachers are using for fun and enjoyment is being used to guide weapons. We haven't even gotten into the chemical and biological weapons yet either. Who knows what footage we'll be able to see once the fighting is done, and we can review what the embedded reporters can show us.
I hope that after this, we can turn our attention to Al-Qaeda and deal with them once and for all. That we can diplomatically deal with North Korea. And that we can work on attaining world peace. The coverage is making war this much more real, and I think it's much more scary. I don't want to have to go through this again, and I don't want my children or grandchildren to go through this. I hope that this war, experiencing it and looking back on it, will help us work harder towards peace throughout the world.
The necessity and prudence ot the war is another debate.
I just wonder if sometimes we forget to consider the tragedy and the utter failure that war represents. High tech weaponry and GPS guided bombs don't impress me. In a way, they represent failure, too.
Anyone else having tech problems today ?
The piss poor cowering civilians who are the target of this efficacious murder machine have no choice.
Tell that to the Iraqis that are happy as hell to see us there to remove Saddam.
Anyone else having tech problems today ?
Not I!
Geez Rick, You didn't know Nick Raleigh was out of prison?
High tech laser and gps guided weapons don't impress you? How about carpet bombing with plain old gravity bombs? Would that be better? Yeah I know. Never ending peace talks, never ending resolutions with murderous dictators who couldn't care less is still preferable.
Jacques Chirac, French president, on Friday ended the fragile truce at the European Union summit in Brussels with a strong attack on the "illegal" US-British attack on Iraq.
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Mr Chirac signalled that France would campaign through the United Nations to keep any American or British involvement in the running of postwar Iraq to a minimum.
Just hours after Tony Blair, British prime minister, called for a new UN resolution on the reconstruction of Iraq, Mr Chirac said France would not accept a dominant US and British role in such efforts.
France will not accept a resolution that would legitimise military intervention and give the US and British the powers of administration in Iraq, he said.
Chirac to resist control of postwar Iraq by US allies
So France wants us to go in, free Iraq (with our men, equipment and blood) and then just give up any say in what goes on??? Two words for you Mr. Chickenshit.... FUCK YOU!
Or in the Words of one of our Servicemen
Yeah, Torpedo, I understand. I know, for you, watching US forces in full Shock and Awe on a Friday night probably makes you feel like a BIG MAN. Makes you want to go out tonight and kick some ass.
But you know, resistance by Iraq is starting to look pathetic.
This is a region of the world where honor and dignity are very important.
A humiliation of huge proportions makes postwar a difficult challenge. Allied forces better they use discretion.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
Shows how much you know about me.
All I need is a 12 pack to make me feel like a BIG MAN!
LOL!
"Shows how much you know about me.
All I need is a 12 pack to make me feel like a BIG MAN! "
You probably drink the cheap stuff, too.
Buy you a bottle of Bordeaux, torpedo.
Interested?
Once we free Iraq and help them set up their government, I think it should be up to the Iraqi people who they want to help rebuild their country. France id just proving how washed up and irrelevant they really are. It really is quite pathetic to watch them puff up their chest and posture.
US TROOPS CAPTURE CHEMICAL PLANT
Mar. 23, 2003
About 30 Iraqi troops, including a general, surrendered today to US forces of the 3rd Infantry Division as they overtook huge installation apparently used to produce chemical weapons in An Najaf, some 150 kilometers (90 miles) south of Baghdad.
One soldier was lightly wounded when a booby-trapped explosive went off as he was clearing the sheet metal-lined facility, which resembles the eery images of scientific facilities in World War II concentration camps.
The huge 100-acre complex, which is surrounded by a electrical fence, is perhaps the first illegal chemical plant to be uncovered by US troops in their current mission in Iraq. The surrounding barracks resemble an abandoned slum.
It wasn't immediately clear exactly which chemicals were being produced here, but clearly the Iraqis tried to camouflage the facility so it could not be photographed aerially, by swathing it in sand-cast walls to make it look like the surrounding desert.
Within minutes of our entry into the camp on Sunday afternoon, at least 30 Iraqi soldiers and their commanding officer of the rank of General, obeyed the instructions of US soldiers who called out from our jeep in loudspeakers for them to lie down on the ground, and put their hands above their heads to surrender.
I found this in the middle of an UPI report. It appears about half way through the article and should have been a headline story. I would like to see their video.
A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality."
Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."
Cruise missiles found in hidden bunker
British troops outside Basra have discovered cruise missiles and warheads hidden inside fortified bunkers as part of a massive arsenal abandoned by Saddam Hussein's disintegrating southern army.
Cases of rockets, giant anti-shipping mines and other ammunition are piled from floor to ceiling in dozens of bunkers at what is marked on maps as the Az Zubaya Heliport.
The most disturbing find was two Russian-made Al-Harith anti-shipping cruise missiles, each 6m long and 1m in diameter, and nine warheads, hidden in two enormous reinforced concrete bunkers.
Another missile, as yet unidentified, was found still crated up at the rear of one of the bunkers.
Some of the boxes are clearly marked with the names of British manufacturers.
The scale and possible implications of the weapons find took British forces by surprise and raised fresh questions about the extent of the Iraqi war machine and the ability of weapons inspectors to cope with the task of scouring such a vast country for prohibited ordinance.
The discovery of the missiles - date-marked 2002 - came as British troops from the Black Watch Regiment fought to secure the area around Iraqi's second city, Basra, in preparation for the capture of the city.
The vast complex, surrounded by chainlink fence and barbed wire, stands to the southwest of the town, defended by a network of earth works and with tanks and other armoured vehicles dug in to the surrounding area.
But the defenders have fled after coming under attack from coalition forces.
Outside the perimeter fence are about 40 bunkers packed with a mixture of RPGs and other ammunition. Inside, 22 larger fortified bunkers contain larger weaponry including the Al-Harith missiles.
The missiles, with Al-Harith 2002 stencilled in red paint on the side, and covered with cyrillic writing, were housed in 20-m-long concrete bunkers, 8m high, buried under earth and protected by sliding steel double doors 30cm thick.
Painted grey, the missiles have two wings, each about 60cm in span and three tail fins of a similar size. There was no indication of the nature of the warheads fitted and experts have been called in to examine the find.
Also housed inside the reinforced bunkers were what appeared to be large anti-shipping mines, 1m in diameter, and a host of other munitions.
On one box, written in English, were the words: "Contract AS Navy. 5/1980 Iran."
Corporal Steven Airzee said: "The initial sight was a shock. We were trying to figure out what they were. You have to wonder whether the weapons inspectors have been there because they looked pretty big."
The entrance to the heliport is decorated with a picture of Saddam Hussein in military uniform.
The area is surrounded by wrecked vehicles and abandoned sandbagged fox holes, some flying white flags, and is overlooked by a network of watch towers.
There are fears that weapons may have been taken from some of the bunkers which lie open outside the perimeter fence.
Lieutenant Angus Watson said they found the haul when they arrived last night.
"The complex is massive and we were surprised to find a lot of the kit intact, easily enough for a whole brigade," he said.
They also discovered hundreds of leaflets lying on the floor, dropped by coalition planes, urging the defenders to surrender. The leaflets, and evidence of an aerial or artillery attack, appear to have persuaded the defenders to abandon their posts without a fight.
I saw this scroll across the bottom of Fox News broadcast. Ansar Al Islam members killed during bombing raids. Ansar Al Islam is connected to Al Queda. Can anyone confirm this? It would prove the Iraq Al Queda connection.
They are accused of being behind the car bombing as well. Here is the best story I could find on what you are speaking of...
Report: American forces attack Islamic militants
Sat Mar 22,10:09 AM ET
By BORZOU DARAGAHI, Associated Press Writer
SULAYMANIYAH, Iraq - The United States fired five missiles at the base of an al-Qaida linked group in the mountains of northeastern Iraq, Kurdish political and military officials said, combining its war against Saddam Hussein with its fight against alleged terrorists.
A high-level official of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, speaking on condition of anonymity, also said a ground offensive against Ansar al Islam, utilizing Kurdish forces, was being prepared and could start hours after the air strikes. A Kurdish military official, also refusing to be named, confirmed the report.
U.S. Gen. Tommy Franks confirmed U.S. missile attacks on a camp of the al-Qaida-linked militant group Ansar al-Islam, in northern Iraq Friday night. Kurdish officials in the region said at least 100 people died in the bombardment.
Ansar al-Islam, a militant Islamic group with 700 hardcore members and alleged ties to both al-Qaida and Saddam Hussein's government, has said it has been involved in killing dozens or Kurdish officials or soldiers over since it became active in the Fall of 2001.
Civilians have often died or been wounded in Ansar's suicide bombings, ambushes and assassinations, centered around the 18 villages it controls near the city of Halabja next to the Iranian border.
The attack on Ansar, which occurred shortly before midnight Friday local time, comes as the U.S. prepares to step up a northern front against Saddam's government to take control of the oil-rich cities of Kirkuk and Mosul.
Many Kurdish officials have feared Ansar could disrupt any American presence here. Several weeks ago, Kurdish counterterrorism officials spotted carloads of alleged Ansar militants near sites said to be visited by the U.S. clandestine operatives active in the autonomous Kurdish north of Iraq.
Kurds say Ansar's strategic Biyare stronghold in the mountains, with sympathetic Islamic groups on each side, the Zagros Mountains to the rear and a narrow, heavily guarded pass in the front made a ground assault unfeasible without air support.
Kurdish officials have often accused Ansar of harboring Afghan-trained members of al-Qaida.
Terrorism is an international problem," said Barham Salih, prime minister of the Patriotic Union-controlled section of northern Iraq. "We need international help in combating Ansar."
In a February address to the U.N. Security Council, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell alleged that Ansar was the missing link tying al-Qaida to Saddam's regime.
On Friday, Kurdish Peshmerga militia fighters and heavily armed Special Forces poured into the area near Halabja.
"They are very intelligent," Bafel Talabani, a Kurdish counterterrorism official, told The Associated Press. "Their explosives devices are very professional. They have good equipment. Their operations are very well done."
Despite the allegations against Ansar, many in the Patriotic Union have recently acknowledged they may have played a role in allowing to set up in the area.
In a press conference last month, Patriotic Union leader Jalal Talabani said that he made a mistake in allowing a predecessor group to Ansar relocate to Biyare after the Kurdistan Democratic Party in the western half of the autonomous Kurdish zone kicked it out.
The International Crisis Group, a Belgium-based think tank, said in a Feb. 7 report that Ansar is a local group with questionable ties to international terrorism. "Having lost a number of its fighters in clashes with Ansar al-Islam, it is not surprising that the PUK has sought to emphasize the group's putative terrorist connections," the report said.
But, the report adds, "There is no hard evidence to suggest that Ansar al-Islam is more than a minor irritant in local Kurdish politics."
Mostafa Said Qader, the top Kurdish military commnader in the northern city of Sulaymaniyah:
At 12:30 am, the United States launched 40 Tomahawk cruise missles at the villages of Qhormal, Biyare and Sargat. Sargat was the site of what U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell called a terrorist poison and explosives training center and a deadly link in a "sinister nexus" binding Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida.
Qader said the rockets came from the Red Sea.
He said that 8 a.m. this morning launched two more missiles at the Ansar al Islam center.
"The missiles hit their targets. There are many killed and injured, but we cannot say exactly how many. According to our information, it is more than 100. He said that some of the corpses were taken to Halabja and others were taken to Iran."
He said that 120 families affiliated with the Ansar group as well as another group with similar Islamic fundamentalist views were hit.
"There will be further bombardments,"
Local authorities warned the members of the group to leave before the attacks.
"We are very happy to get rid of these terrorists," Qader said. "We have tried a lot to get them to abandon their terrorist acts....They caused instability in our country and their destrictuion is a cause for happinesss."
Meanwhile, hundreds of refugees started to flee the area on foot and by tractor down the narrow dirt country roads. Walking from Qormal to Sadid Saddiq. Carrying clothes on their backs, food and few supplies.
Iraqi attrocities toward captured heroes
Warning-graphic pictures at the link. No matter what the protest folks claim, these people must be stopped!
Dan Zachary 3/23/03 2:36pm
Dan Zachary, I like what I read from you...
If this is accurate, they could have been more polite to her.
"The only speaker who received a hostile reception was N. Ruby Zigrino, a Muslim from Minneapolis. She was initially cheered when she said she supports "ousting a tyrant regime."'
"But she then read passages from the Qur'an, suggested that a new Marshall Plan will be needed in Iraq, and said administration officials should study foreign-policy failures to avoid repeating them."
Her listeners responded with boos and shouts of "Screw Muslims!" "Screw the Qur'an!" and "Go home!"
I'm sure many people in the audience were angry about what went on at the Wellstone memorial service.
The story mentions conflicting attendance figures. That seems to be quite a preoccupation with anyone who throws a rally. No one ever seems to agree.
"The crowd repeatedly erupted with chants of "U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!"
Doesn't all this have a bit of a tailgating tone to it?
To: Rick 3/23/03 4:31pm
Sounds to me like they may have rightfully awakened.
To me, war is an ordeal to be endured. A grim, ugly task.
A celebratory atmosphere seems out of place.
What else can it be but tragedy?
To: Rick 3/23/03 4:37pm
To me, the tragedy is in good men doing nothing about evil until it has to be dealt with by war.
Another poster ran one of my favorite scenes from Shakespeare. Henry V was pumping up the troops. Before anyone goes into battle, there's gotta be someone like Henry around:
...he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is called the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.
Crispian was the patron saint of shoemakers. Maybe a lot of shoemakers in Henry's army. Here they were. Other shomakers had the day off. At home, feasting and getting drunk.
If you come home alive, Henry says, there's glory in it for you. If you don't. Well, we'll remember you on St. Crispian's Day.
But I wonder if St. Crispian had any thoughts. Keep your dreams of glory and conquest to yourself, he might have said. Keep me out of it.
To me, war is an ordeal to be endured. A grim, ugly task.
A celebratory atmosphere seems out of place.
Amen Rick, Amen!
and said administration officials should study foreign-policy failures to avoid repeating them."
She's not entirely wrong.
But quoting the Qur'an to that crowd probably guaranteed that whatever she said afterwards wasn't going to be heard.
Black Watch find cruise missiles in huge arms cache at heliport
IAN BRUCE
SCOTTISH troops from the Black Watch battle group yesterday discovered a huge cache of weapons which could show that Saddam Hussein's regime is in breach of UN sanctions.
Two Al Harith anti-ship cruise missiles supplied last year by Russiaand explosive components from a Hampshire firm were discovered at a bunker complex sited at the As Zubayr civilian heliport south of Basra, in southern Iraq.
The soldiers found 24 reinforced underground bunkers and 48 arms storage sheds containing hundreds of thousands of rocket propelled grenades, landmines, machine gun am-munition, fuses, and detonators, as well as the missiles.
Most of the site has been cordoned off until experts arrive to clear booby traps and use detectors to see if anything more sinister is hidden in the depot.
One Al Harith, a long-range sea-skimming missile which could threaten allied warships in the Gulf, was on a stand awaiting the fitting of its rocket motor. Someone had drawn a shark's face on its warhead. Another was still in its crate in another bunker.
Both weapons had Russian Cyrillic characters stencilled on their sides and were dated 2002. A strict UN arms embargo on Iraq has been enforced since 1991.
The British-made explosive components, believed to be fuses for detonators, were in small boxes stamped "Wallop Industries Limited, Middle Wallop, Hampshire" and carried danger signs and a prohibition on the product being carried by air. There were no dates on the cases.
In the bunker containing the exposed Al Harith, there was also a larger missile, between 30 and 40ft long, still in its shipping container. This was being left for bomb disposal teams. It also had Russian lettering.
Lieutenant Angus Watson, from Methil, Fife, who was in charge of the platoon which found the haul of high explosives, said: "There is enough kit here to outfit a brigade. It's an astonishing amount of ammunition. We also found deserted Iraqi tanks and personnel carriers when we moved in, but the garrison put here to defend the depot had legged it. The whole complex was wide open, with the doors of the hardened bunkers unlocked. Local civilians had begun looting."
The heliport perimeter was dotted with hastily-abandoned slit trenches and machine gun positions.
American psychological war-fare leaflets urging Iraqi troops not to resist littered the floors of most of the bunkers.
One leaflet showed Saddam and then a weeping mother with a dead child. Another depicted a chemical plant before and after it had been flattened by bombing.
"From the number of limpet mines and some of the other armaments found so far, it seems to have been a naval storage depot," said Lieutenant Watson. "It makes you wonder what chance a couple of hundred UN inspectors had of finding anything damning in a country this big. On the surface, this was, after all, supposed to be a civilian heliport."
The Herald attempted to contact Wallop Defence Systems yesterday, but there was no reply. According to its internet website, it is a division of FR Countermeasures.
More join the coalition of unilateralism.
Uganda pledges support for war in Iraq
March 23 2003 at 01:53PM
Kampala - The Ugandan government has publicly declared its support for the US-led war in Iraq and said it will provide any support needed.
The "Cabinet, sitting under the chairmanship of (President) Yoweri Museveni, decided to support the US-led coalition war against Iraq," Foreign Minister James Waphakabulo said in a statement released late pn Saturday.
"Cabinet also decided that if the need arises Uganda will be ready to assist in any way possible."
It was not clear what support Uganda, a poor East African nation, could offer the US-led coalition.
The government supports the war because the "potential link between terrorism and weapons of mass destruction poses a very serious threat to international peace and security," the statement said.
Museveni, who seized power in 1986 after leading a five-year bush war, is regarded as a US ally and the United States is the second largest bilateral donor to Uganda.
Uganda is the third African country to publicly support US military action against Iraq, following Horn of Africa countries Ethiopia and Eritrea.
Ethiopia has granted US aircraft over-flight rights and access to its air bases.
A predominantly Christian nation in the Horn of Africa, Ethiopia has two main air bases, one outside the capital Addis Ababa and the other 320km to the east in Dire Dawa.
Eritrea, which gained independence from Ethiopia in 1993 after a 30-year guerrilla war, has offered the United States the use of Assab and Massawa ports - both of which are on the Red Sea - but it is not known whether this has been accepted. - Sapa-AP
Day One-Four
Aircraft
One CH-56 Helicopter lost to an accident in Northern Kuwait
Two Royal Navy Sea King Helicopters collide over the sea
One RAF Tornado GR-4 Shot down by friendly fire
--------
Four aircraft lost
Personnel
Eight UK Soldiers killed in the CH-56 incident
Four US Crew members of the CH-56
Six UK Crew members from the Seaking Accident
One US Navy Crew member from the Seaking Accident
Two US Soldiers killed in Southern iraq in combat
One US Soldier killed in Grenade attack on 101 AD HQ
Two RAF Crewmembers of the Tornado Killed
Two UK Soldiers Missing in Southern Iraq
Twelve US Soldiers missing at Naisrayah(Four killed five POW according to Iraq)
Ten US Soldiers killed at fighting at naisrayah
One US Soldier killed in Vehicle Accident on Sunday
49 Killed, Missing, POW (22 in accidents)
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/index.html
Iraqi
-Two bombs dropped in a compound with 120 Iraqi soldiers - Casualities unknown
-Firefight at Um Qasr (shown on TV). Vehicle with 3 Iraqi dead claimed by Allied firing.
-Firefight at Al Fawa (?) Six Iraqi soldiers claimed killed by the Royal Marines.
Total POWs as on date is approx 2000
Civilians
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
Min 126
Max 199
we are shooting ourselves in the foot big time.
Consider this
Saddam is dead! Well then, no he's not.
Iraq fired a Scud at Kuwait! No , it was a SAM.
Umm Qasr is taken! But not quite.
The Iraqi 51st Division surrendered en masse! Well, perhaps it hasn't.
Republican Guard commanders will surrender! They have not decided yet.
Basra is taken! Hold on, it will not be taken.
We found a chemical weapons factory! Wait up, false alarm.
No helicopters downed, Iraqi propaganda. Sorry, 2 Apache's bit the dust.
War is chaotic, Naradar.
And every news source wants to be the first to report something, confirmed or not.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/889555.asp
"My car is shrapnel and I’m basically embedded now. I don’t have much chance of going independent again and, to be honest, I don’t know if I want to."
Dan:
You say: More join the coalition of unilateralism.
I got this information from a Boston Globe columnist. If hes out to lunch, then hes out to lunch. But I think before you start trumpeting coalition with every other post, maybe you ought to consider this.
At least the motives of this coalition are worth a cold hard look.
"The reason the word ''coalition'' flows every five seconds from the lips of the Bush and Powell is because they do not want us to know that no such thing exists. The United States has 250,000 troops bearing down on Iraq. Britain is contributing 45,000. After that, the next greatest contributor is Australia, with a grand total of 2,000.
"After that, it is a gathering of street-corner brothers, the kind who are legendary for loudly threatening to start a fight, but at the moment of truth runs back to his buddies and screams, ''Fellas, hold me back! You gotta hold me back before I kill this guy!'' '
Poland, obviously to protect its $3.8 billion in US fighter-plane loans, will loan us a grand total of 200 soldiers. Spain was the third-loudest voice behind the United States and Britain in asking the UN to go to war. But faced with 81 percent opposition by Spaniards to the war, Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar committed only 200 troops to go only to Turkey. Fellas, hold me back! "
And the Turks have decided to do some premption of their own is in their national interests. I was expecting this to happen after the Iraqi thugs had been sent to seek solace with Allah.
"The reason the word ''coalition'' flows every five seconds from the lips of the Bush and Powell is because they do not want us to know that no such thing exists. The United States has 250,000 troops bearing down on Iraq. Britain is contributing 45,000. After that, the next greatest contributor is Australia, with a grand total of 2,000.
And if this was a "U.N. sanctioned" war, what would the make up of troops be? Answer, the same.
And if this was a "U.N. sanctioned" war, what would the make up of troops be?
Answer, the same.
LOL
No doubt
Uhhh....
We don't know that.
Canada would have been welcome.
Rick,
I'm sure from your living room it does. I have news for you. If someone's trying to kill you, it's a big deal. Is it on a massive scale ? No but there is and will be fierce resistance in spots as we have seen. It will be overcome eventually and bypassing them instead of trying to go directly into cities right away is sound strategy. Hopefully at the lowest cost possible. They do have to be addressed eventually though. The progress made has been amazing. When you consider a few things. They knew we were coming, They've had a long time to prepare. There was no prepratory bombing. We've gone many many miles in 4 days. It's a logistical feat of epic proportions. We're now probably less than 50 miles from Bagdhad. We won't or shouldn't go in right away. But to say that resistance is looking pathetic is very simplistic IMO.
Yes, well it is here too. I haven't seen too much "dignity" nor "honor" coming out of that region as of late, sorry I'm not buying it.
What ? Easy to say if you aren't the guy who has to attack a posistion. You're kidding me Rick. Discretion ? WTF ? The restraint we've used is astounding. And I tell you what, the restraint we've shown is one of the reasons we are encountering pockets of resistance which will lead to more of our troops dying. Our efforts to be accurate and use restraint will be costly to us on the ground. (Not saying you're saying this Rick at all, just making a statement here) but the next time I hear ro see some idiot with a protest sign saying we're evil I think I'll puke. If we disregarded civilian casualties we would have bombed for days and weeks on end before sending troops in. We would bomb or send arty into buildings we took any fire from or suspected enemy posisition.
Had we done so many more would surrender but the death toll on the civilians would be higher. The bravery and restraint is amazing.
Want to see the difference. Witness the Iraqi treatment of prisioners, witness the actions on the river bank for a suspected downed pilot. Witness the fake surrenders. (Which they did in 91') Witness the Iraqi's using the civilians and blending.
Perhaps some will now get what type of regime we're dealing with.
Too many people have become used to "video game" wars or expect a drive through war with a McVictory in 2 days. It's not and never is. When you think of what's been accomplished thus far without bombing in advance it's amazing. There's going to be sad and tragic moments as we've seen. There's no joy in any of it. I agree that it's something to endure not celebrate but there's also a difference between celebration and noting the good job they're doing.
Well, my feeling about it has changed since Friday night when I said that. It seems to me that operations are much more complex and difficult then I thought then.
And, truth be told, neither you nor I know what those bombs are hitting in Baghdad. There needs to be a neutral party in the city to tell us.
Why would that be ? I don't think the International Red Cross has made up casualty accounts do you ? When you look at the scale of the sorties. It's amazing that the numbers are as low as they are, not that it lessens the tragedy of lost life at all or in any way shape or form whatsoever! Much of that blame though can clearly be placed on Saddamn's feet. He's the one that put facilities in residential areas. There's a reason we don't have ammunition depositories in uptown Mpls. It's a bad idea and unhealthy for a populace. AA guns on hospitals is a bad idea as well. Not that Saddamn would harm his people. My point is that in order to complete the job you have to go in eventually and going in without taking those targets out would be very very costly and cost more civilian deaths in the long run. A long protacted battle in the city would be horrific on all sides. If we disregarded the populace the entire city would be in ruins. Many of the shops etc. are still open for business.
pure bovine excrement L2F - Luv2Fly 3/24/03 5:38pm
We went into this war expecting it to be a cakewalk and that we would be in Baghdad by today with the locals slobbering all over us. Welcome to reality. All the machismo from the military brass made even me think that the takeover of Southern Iraq would be a facile exercise – with the blood and gore in the assault on Baghdad. We are getting the crap whipped out of us even in trying to reach Baghdad. I am sure we will still make mincemeat of the Iraqis – but Christ, my tax money has been squandered. And all this unnecessary loss of life.
By the way, all this crocodile tears from Rum and gang about the Geneva Convention. Rummy declared that prisoners taken by the US in Afghanistan would not be accorded the protection of the Conventions. The suspected al-Qaeda captives, he declared, were "unlawful combatants"; and the US had the right to do with them what it wished. Yes, we are civilized and do not execute our prisoners because of the outcry from us ACLU members – but we set the precedent for thugs to follow. By the way, on the day the al-Qaeda prisoners were brought to Guantanamo Bay, Amnesty International declared the US in violation of the Geneva Conventions.
I cannot get over what eunuchs the US press has become. A bunch of emasculated parroters of the establishment line. The Chinese Xinhua agency exhibits more independence from the military brass. As if on cue, US television networks refrained from showing the images, and at least one major US daily, the Los Angeles Times, immediately withdrew the images from its website. And even in cyberspace, Yellowtimes.org, an anti-war 'guerrilla' webpage, posted photographs of the US POWs only to find its hosting provider shutting down its site!!
this one is for Naradar
I was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam
By Daniel Pepper
(Filed: 23/03/2003)
I wanted to join the human shields in Baghdad because it was direct action which had a chance of bringing the anti-war movement to the forefront of world attention. It was inspiring: the human shield volunteers were making a sacrifice for their political views - much more of a personal investment than going to a demonstration in Washington or London. It was simple - you get on the bus and you represent yourself.
So that is exactly what I did on the morning of Saturday, January 25. I am a 23-year-old Jewish-American photographer living in Islington, north London. I had travelled in the Middle East before: as a student, I went to the Palestinian West Bank during the intifada. I also went to Afghanistan as a photographer for Newsweek.
The human shields appealed to my anti-war stance, but by the time I had left Baghdad five weeks later my views had changed drastically. I wouldn't say that I was exactly pro-war - no, I am ambivalent - but I have a strong desire to see Saddam removed.
We on the bus felt that we were sympathetic to the views of the Iraqi civilians, even though we didn't actually know any. The group was less interested in standing up for their rights than protesting against the US and UK governments.
I was shocked when I first met a pro-war Iraqi in Baghdad - a taxi driver taking me back to my hotel late at night. I explained that I was American and said, as we shields always did, "Bush bad, war bad, Iraq good". He looked at me with an expression of incredulity.
As he realised I was serious, he slowed down and started to speak in broken English about the evils of Saddam's regime. Until then I had only heard the President spoken of with respect, but now this guy was telling me how all of Iraq's oil money went into Saddam's pocket and that if you opposed him politically he would kill your whole family.
It scared the hell out of me. First I was thinking that maybe it was the secret police trying to trick me but later I got the impression that he wanted me to help him escape. I felt so bad. I told him: "Listen, I am just a schmuck from the United States, I am not with the UN, I'm not with the CIA - I just can't help you."
Of course I had read reports that Iraqis hated Saddam Hussein, but this was the real thing. Someone had explained it to me face to face. I told a few journalists who I knew. They said that this sort of thing often happened - spontaneous, emotional, and secretive outbursts imploring visitors to free them from Saddam's tyrannical Iraq.
I became increasingly concerned about the way the Iraqi regime was restricting the movement of the shields, so a few days later I left Baghdad for Jordan by taxi with five others. Once over the border we felt comfortable enough to ask our driver what he felt about the regime and the threat of an aerial bombardment.
"Don't you listen to Powell on Voice of America radio?" he said. "Of course the Americans don't want to bomb civilians. They want to bomb government and Saddam's palaces. We want America to bomb Saddam."
We just sat, listening, our mouths open wide. Jake, one of the others, just kept saying, "Oh my God" as the driver described the horrors of the regime. Jake was so shocked at how naive he had been. We all were. It hadn't occurred to anyone that the Iraqis might actually be pro-war.
The driver's most emphatic statement was: "All Iraqi people want this war." He seemed convinced that civilian casualties would be small; he had such enormous faith in the American war machine to follow through on its promises. Certainly more faith than any of us had.
Perhaps the most crushing thing we learned was that most ordinary Iraqis thought Saddam Hussein had paid us to come to protest in Iraq. Although we explained that this was categorically not the case, I don't think he believed us. Later he asked me: "Really, how much did Saddam pay you to come?"
It hit me on visceral and emotional levels: this was a real portrayal of Iraq life. After the first conversation, I completely rethought my view of the Iraqi situation. My understanding changed on intellectual, emotional, psychological levels. I remembered the experience of seeing Saddam's egomaniacal portraits everywhere for the past two weeks and tried to place myself in the shoes of someone who had been subjected to seeing them every day for the last 20 or so years.
Last Thursday night I went to photograph the anti-war rally in Parliament Square. Thousands of people were shouting "No war" but without thinking about the implications for Iraqis. Some of them were drinking, dancing to Samba music and sparring with the police. It was as if the protesters were talking about a different country where the ruling government is perfectly acceptable. It really upset me.
Anyone with half a brain must see that Saddam has to be taken out. It is extraordinarily ironic that the anti-war protesters are marching to defend a government which stops its people exercising that freedom.
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