The "War on Drugs"

Maybe he's a criminal who's willing to live the consequences instead of whining to change the rules.

it's not a question of consequences and rules. It's a question of personal freedom.

He didn't "live the consequenses", there obviously were none.

it's also obvious that he's willing to "live the consequences" of such a hugely disproportionate number of black who actually have to "live the consequeces" of a law designed to offer them a way out of poverty and into a prison. Historically, these drug laws were designed to criminalize minorities, something that one look at the embarrassing statisics of the make-up of our prison population will confirm is still going on today That's why we have them...so that racists can feel superior to another race. These laws are immoral, unjust, unfairly prosecuted and damaging to our society.

when laws are wrong, we have a responsibility to whine about it until we change it.

something about "when good men do nothing"

you don't just "live the consequences" when a law is unjust, you try to do something about it.

"when laws are wrong, we have a responsibility to whine about it until we change it."

But not the right to break them, and then claim we've been wronged somehow when we get caught.

That's what I meant about living with the consequences. I left a word out.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

But not the right to break them, and then claim we've been wronged somehow.

actually, we have a responsibilityto not obey unjust laws.

the laws themselves wrong us all, regardless of if we break them or not.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

so, if they make a law that all blacks are criminals and can be shot on site, you want to obey it?

unjust laws deserve no one's respect.

personal freedom

it's what we go and kill other people for and you say to obey when someone takes it away?

no thanks.

JT's right. Your logic is flawed.

That's not responsibility, it's personal autonomy.

"I don't break laws, I make laws." Charles Manson.

Daytime TV talk has been called the Medical Museum of Personal Autonomy.

if someone didn't disobey unjust laws, blacks in this country would still not be allowed at the counter in public eating establishment

or was MLK just a whiner?

Legal pot is not front lines of the Civil Rights Movment.

And you insult MLK by implying it.

That's not responsibility, it's personal autonomy.

it's called "freedom"

it's a bit more dangerous, but it's worth it.

you should try it sometime.

are you really saying that you don't have autonomy over even yourself? damn, that's a shame.

Legal pot is not front lines of the Civil Rights Movment.

unjust law is unjust law

we are arresting millions of peoples for doing something that harms no one.

"it's called "freedom"

it's a bit more dangerous, but it's worth it.

you should try it sometime."

Everytime you talk about freedom I hear your chains rattling.

There's a difference between wanting freedom and wanting to do whatever you please.

But one would normally have to say that to kids.

That's not responsibility, it's personal autonomy.

a person can have personal autonomy and also behave responsibly.

I got news for you, millions of people use marijuana and are fully responsible human beings.

millions.

There's a difference between wanting freedom and wanting to do whatever you please

no, there isn't.

the responsibility come in not interfering with someone else's freedom

the drug laws are irresponsible

marijuana smokers tend to be a very responsible group of people when it comes to not interefering with other people's rights to do as they please.

"millions of people use marijuana and are fully responsible human beings.

Except they choose to break the law. i assume most are willing to pay the consequences and not claim to be a victim of a law they were aware of.

Except they choose to break the law

the law they are breaking is not a just law.

i assume most are willing to pay the consequences and not claim to be a victim.

well, the "consequenses" have something to do with what color you are and how much money you have

it's an unjust law.

we are all victims as long as we live under unjust laws.

"no, there isn't. the responsibility come in not interfering with someone else's freedom"

By breaking the law you have become a burden of the state. You're our burden. That's interfering.

"the drug laws are irresponsible"

That's not the point.

not to mention that the penalty does far more damage than the thing it's a penalty for....that's a red flag for unjust law.

The law is the law.

By breaking the law you have become a burden of the state. You're our burden. That's interfering.

no...it's the laws that are not only unjust, but have become a burdon to the state.

they do far more harm then they prevent.

they create a black market and it's accompanying violence.

we already learned this lesson once with Prohibition, at least those of us how are inclined to try to learn for our past

they have, among the poor, created entire generations of criminalized people.

they are immoral and abhorrant

The law is the law.

there are two types of laws.

just and unjust

or are you saying that, if it's the law somewhere that people get executed for jaywalking that this is okay, since it's the LAW?

bad law is meant to be changed, not blindly obeyed.

I get the feeling that I'm debating this with a 12-year-old who wants to do what he wants to do and thinks it's "not fair" that he can't.

it used to be mandatoryto grow hemp in this country

He's sullen and pouting about it, too.

I get the feeling that I'm debating this with a 12-year-old who wants to do what he wants to do and thinks it's "not fair" that he can't.

I get the feeling I'm arguing with someone who doesn't want to talk about unjust law and what one should do about it.

what part of "can't do what you want" says "freedom" to you?

cause that ain't in my definition

He's sullen and pouting about it, too.

when you actually want to address the issue, let me know

By breaking the law you have become a burden of the state

nine states currently are being prevented from exercising their own decriminalized laws (that were voted on and passed) on medical marijuana.

it seems more like the Feds have become the burdon of the state

'what part of "can't do what you want" says "freedom" to you?

cause that ain't in my definition "

I agree, it's not your definition.

I agree, it's not your definition

and I still await your definition of freedom that says it means you can't do what you want

again, any time that you want to actually address the issue, go right ahead...feel free

and wouldn't we be better off talking about Miles music anyway?

Rick,

The effort is commendable. It really is.
Please feel free to slam your cranium into the proverbial desk at any given time. I applaud your effort though.

he has made no effert.

I can't even get him to discuss the topic. It appears he would rather discuss me...I'm not a drug nor am I a law

I thought you conservatives were supposed to defend personal freedoms

Well you're not going to get it.

Well you're not going to get it [a definition of freedom that says you can't do what you want].

of course not

that isn't it's definition

Main Entry: free·dom
 Pronunciation: 'frE-d&m
 Function: noun
 Date: before 12th century
 1 : the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action
b : liberation from slavery or restraintor from the power of another : INDEPENDENCE c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous
<freedom from care> d : EASE, FACILITY
<spoke the language with freedom> e : the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken
<answered with freedom> f : improper familiarity g : boldness of conception or execution h : unrestricted use
<gave him the freedom of their home>
2 a : a political right b : FRANCHISE, PRIVILEGE synonyms FREEDOM, LIBERTY, LICENSE mean the power or condition of acting without compulsion. FREEDOM has a broad range of application from total absence of restraintto merely a sense of not being unduly hamperedor frustrated.

now, where does it say anything about it meaning "not able to do what you want"?

and BTW

how long are you gonna keep fighting this war anyway?

it's been harming people for a long time now and people still do drugs ...hell, it's easier to get drugs than it is to get a gun

you are losing a war to a bunch of people who are on drugs

in case you missed it the first time...

the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action

freedom

ask any American

it's what they will die for

we are constraining millions of people for having a plant.

it's insane

nature itself is outlawed?

William Randolf Hearst, who is known to have hated Mexicans, propagandized in his newspapers against minorities with lurid stories of black and Mexican men smoking "marijuana" and raping white women. He conspired with other timber barons who bought and shelved the technology that would have allowed hemp to replace trees as the majority source of paper pulp.

The American Medical Association opposed the prohibition of cannabis as a medicine, but in 1936, just before they enacted marijuana prohibition, the US Congress was lied to and was told that the AMA backed the prohibition. Most Americans had no idea that marijuana and cannabis were the same drug. Through its association with minorities in the newspapers, cannabis, a perfectly acceptable drug, was renamed "marijuana" a previously unheard of drug being used by evil, violent non-whites to lure our women and children.

I think MLK would be okay with me saying this is unjust law

not only did they begin as racist laws...they continue to be used as such...

The black arrest rate for all drug offenses is four times the arrest rate for whites.

the black arrest rates for drug offenses increases with the severity of the offense

the black arrest rate for all drug possession offenses is 2.89 times higher than the white arrest rate. 

Black arrest rate for marijuana is more than twice the white arrest rate in over 4/5 of metropolitan counties

Black arrest rates are generally lower in jurisdictions with large black populations, but regardless of the racial composition level the black arrest rate for any drug offense it is typically twice or greater than the white arrest rate for the same offense in the same jurisdiction. 

The disparity between black and white arrest rates for drug offenses increases with the severity of the offense

In metro area counties blacks are arrested for marijuana sales at a rate 3.6 times more than whites. In counties where the black population is at least 1/3 of the entire of the population, blacks are 4.1 times more likely than whites to get arrested for marijuana sales

- based on 1995 Federal Bureau of Investigation's Uniform Crime Report (UCR) data from 700 metropolitan counties

white people smoke pot too, don't they?

of course they do

Legal pot is not front lines of the Civil Rights Movment

as you can plainly read, it's not just the front line, it's one of the final "official" racist laws that needs to be repealed based on civil rights for blacks.

I can tell you the one person I'm currently close to that smokes dope all the time is the most pathetic loser I've ever known.

so, you want to outlaw what you consider to be losers?

Society says you don't have a "personal freedom" to smoke pot or snort coke.

Personal freedoms are what you arbitrarily decide they are for yourself.

no...personal freedom is what it is...it's personal freedom.

I have my personal freedom...society doesn't have it. If society takes it away, they are infringing on it.

if you don't want people to be free, just say so.

Only don't call yourself American, because America is all about freedom. It's what we kill and die for.

I find it unjust that under the law I can't slap you silly

of course, when you don't have an argument, it's only natural that you would want to strike out in frustration.

the law that you can't slap me silly is a just one because it protects my personal freedom.

Silly comparison.

no it's not.

the fact is, the drug laws are racist in intent and execution.

the drug laws are no different in intent than telling blacks that they can't eat at the public counter or ride on the front of the bus. That's why they exist and that's why they are unjust.

you don't just "live the consequences" when a law is unjust, you try to do something about it.

The drug laws are, for the most part, just.

I can tell you the one person I'm currently close to that smokes dope all the time is the most pathetic loser I've ever known.

so, you want to outlaw what you consider to be losers?

What a inane response. He obviously would prefer that the fellow obey the law and not allow himself to be dragged down to the status of loser.

Society says you don't have a "personal freedom" to smoke pot or snort coke.

Personal freedoms are what you arbitrarily decide they are for yourself.

You live in society and that society, at least at the state level, can outlaw your "right" to use certain drugs.

the drug laws are no different in intent than telling blacks that they can't eat at the public counter or ride on the front of the bus. That's why they exist and that's why they are unjust.

What an ignorant statement.

jethro: "The drug laws are, for the most part, just."

What are the unjust parts, jethro?

I think the penalties for drug offenses are sometimes a little out of whack under certain circumstances. There are some crimes, such as involuntary manslaughter (e.g. motor vehicle deaths caused by drunk drivers), in which the penalties are less severe than the penalties for drug violations. But the answer may be to increase the penalties under which death or serious physical injury occurs rather than to reduce drug sentences.

THX, if you're ever faced with the decision of whether to ride with me after smoking a doobie or me after drinking two beers, I strongly suggest you betray your instincts.

Rick, where did crabby whine that the law shouldn't be enforced against him? People who are against the drug war aren't whining that the laws should not be enforced (aside from the possible exception of medical marijuana, where there is an unresolved conflict between state and federal laws) -- they are saying that the laws should be changed. Saying that laws should be changed is a completely legitimate citizen activity, and I can't understand why it bothers you so much that you feel a need to degrade those who do it.

Crabby, I suspect you're wasting your time. The information is out there, should any of the drug war hawks wish to educate themselves.

Here's a good start, and it's in a nice palatable form -- an online comic book, with an "A Christmas Carol" motif:
A Drug War Carol