I don't know how I'd be threatening you with what I said.
Do you often feel threatened, or in fear of tyranny? If so, maybe that's something you should explore. You should think more, and not feel as much. You know, like what you said about me.
The irony is, for all his condemnation of Bush, his Green Party vote -- and that of the rest of the shade-grown coffee drinkers -- helped the man get elected.
The irony is, for all his condemnation of Bush, his Green Party vote -- and that of the rest of the shade-grown coffee drinkers -- helped the man get elected.
As if Gore were any better an option to a Greenie or a Libertarian.
Not sure what your opinion of Al Gore has to do with that I said.
But since the discussion has now moved to the irrelevant, should we carry it forward to the popular voteor do you want to drop the subject right now for lack of relevance?
I have yet to see anyone claim society is crumbling, just because of CCW.
Then you're not paying attention.
Just last night on the news they had a couple of dipshits claiming there were going to be all sorts of gun deaths because of CCW.
They provided nothing to back up such claims.
All they provided was the same old "Allowing people to carry guns is bad". They fail to take their logic full circle and realize that criminals don't give a shit about the law. That they'll carry guns anyway. And all you're doing by not allowing CCW, is preventing the good guys, the law abiding citizens, from carrying.
Went to the Twins game yesterday p.m. While I was walking in, the voice on the PA system "requested" in a kind of plaintive way, that people not try to bring guns into the Metrodome.
Mininsters are asking that people not bring guns into their church. Ditto with businesses.
I hate seeing this. This has potential for division like nothing I've seen in awhile.
Mininsters are asking that people not bring guns into their church.
careful how you word that, rick. its not the minister's church, its the congregation's. i.e. mine and everyone else around me. it might, however, be the minister's flock.
we've always had that right, jt. now we get to back it up on even ground. the cop who wrote the report of my stolen stereo the other day, actually agreed with my dad about instituting street justice. the only downside is that instead of investigating thefts, they'd be investigating shootings.
The problem is that the anti CCW is based on pure emotion. Every fact and figure from the 34 other states support that. It's not the wild west. It's not a scene out of Mad Max either. There were alot of people already authorized to carry before and I didn't see one story on ANY legally liscenced C&C holder who shot anyone or committed a crime with his or her gun. If there had been it would have been paraded around as see, look here. Does that mean it won't happen ? Nope, anything's possible. That same person might have done the same act liscenced or not. There already could have been and probably were guns at the Metrodome & Megamall. The problem is you didn't know about it and nothing happened. The shootings occured BTW at the Megamall were done by gangmembers.I'm sure upstanding folks like that went through the process right ? Sure. Perhaps these thugs will be less apt to cap people at the Mall now that they know that other than the security guard carrying a flashlight there might be someone carrying a weapon if they choose to try anything. That might be just enough doubt to make a difference.
The guns already were there many who were criminals. Now lw abiding people do and suddenly it's going to be apocolypse. As JT said, and I agree, I haven't seen one fact from the anti CCW crowd, Plenty of emotion and doomsday predictions but no real facts.
BTW for the record I will probably go through the class and apply but I doub't I'll ever carry.
I agree with you on that one THX. Besides a restaurant or store that dose not allow guns is asking for some gang banger to come in and rob or kill someone. The anti gun lobby was handing out no guns in this house signs at the Cathedral how much you want to bet that a house with a sign like that get's robbed as opposed to my house that has a sign that say's this house guarded by shotgun three nights a week you guess witch three.
What if you are carrying, and you go to a restaraunt and they have a sign saying "No Guns Allowed(or whatever they will say)... What will you do with your piece? Stick it in the trunk?
What would I do ?..........
Shoot the sign down and then threaten the manager with my new gun :)
Seriously, even though as I said I won't or highly doubt I ever would carry. I wouldn't go into that resturaunt probably, because as ESD pointed out it would be an opne invitation IMO for any criminal to know a whole group is unarmed. Criminals are opportunistic and prey wherever they percieve weakness or the best chance for success.
But that brings up something more important to me. First off if it is a private business etc. I have no problem with them banning guns if they want to. It's their business, same with smoking bans, the government has no right to tell them what they can or can't have. But what's puzzling is that by posting signs saying no guns allowed they are obviously trusting or assuming that these people will obey their rules and not carry their weapon which I'm sure they would. That's of course because the people carrying them are law abiding, hmm imagine that. Criminal's aren't so there have and are guns already all over creation by those who aren't law abiding and yet someone feels less safe becasue the law abiding ones now just might be on an even footing with the criminals ?
What's really ironic about all of this is that people have legally been carrying guns into bars, churches, stores... for a long time in MN. Just not as many.
Not to mention that criminals, as Luv pointed out, the ones you need to be afraid of, don't give a shit about what your stupid little sign says.
They act as if that little sign somehow has some sort of magical powers.
Remember the aftermath of the resturant shooting in Kaleen (sp?) Texas?
If I remember correctly, many people wished they would have had a firearm on them at the time. I think one of the victim's daughter was instrumental in getting the Texas ccw law passed.
The chances of you actually being in a restaraunt that is invaded by some two-bit hood with a gun is about as good as you winning the Powerball Lottery.
Just last week during a carjacking, a woman was shot three times in the face. A nurse stopped to help her and she was also shot at. The asshole that did it got away. If either of those women had guns, he may not have.
But then again maybe he would of still gotten away, but that's hardly the point.
How about Banks that have signs that say no guns allowed ?
And by the way Bill, if it isn't going to make a bit of difference then why all the hubub ?
BTW take a look at Florida's crime rate before CCW passed. Remember all the tourists getting killed down there some years back. IT was awful. Well it slowed down then didn't it.
Also the 34 other states have all seen a decline or crime stay steady.
On the reverse, when Australia put guns in big piles and melted them down and made them illegal, violent crime like home invasions, rape, murder etc. went up almost 400%.
"BTW take a look at Florida's crime rate before CCW passed. Remember all the tourists getting killed down there some years back. IT was awful."
I was living in Florida at that time. Most of the robberies were of foreign tourists that were staked out at the airport. I don't think a lot of Germans and Italians bring a lot of firepower with them on vacation.
Also, the robbers were keying on cars with license plates that said "rental" or "lease" right on the plate. Once that was eliminated it cut a lot of roadside robberies.
You can't take this conceal carry legislaiton and use it as the reason for any downturn in crime of for anything you choose. Crime trends are more complex than that.
And, no, I don't think CCW turns our large metro areas into Dodge City. Large American cities have always been Dodge City, frontier towns. Wide open places with lots of easy money to be had. It's in the culture. It's in the history.
CCW proponents LIKE Dodge City. It's a defining image.
I was living in Florida at that time. Most of the robberies were of foreign tourists that were staked out at the airport. I don't think a lot of Germans and Italians bring a lot of firepower with them on vacation. Also, the robbers were keying on cars with license plates that said "rental" or "lease" right on the plate. Once that was eliminated it cut a lot of roadside robberies. Rick 5/31/03 3:55pm
 Â
And why might that have been. Could it be connected to the "Gun-free zone" equivilant sticker on those cars?
Greater safety for Florida residents and American tourists may be the reason for another notable characteristic of Florida in recent headlines--criminal attacks on foreign tourists. These tourists stood out because of the distinctive rental car license plates that Florida issued until recently. Unlike Florida residents or American tourists (who might shoot back), foreign tourists would certainly be unarmed, suggests the head of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. [41] 41. Doyle Jourdon, head of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, observed, "The bad guys are not stupid. They understand that a tourist from Germany is far less likely to come back and testify against them in court, and they know that these people carry large amounts of cash, don't have weapons and are generally not that well aware of where they're going." Larry Rohter, "Miami Unnerved by a Tourist's Killing," New York Times, Sept. 12, 1993. "Shall Issue": The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws By Clayton E. Cramer & David B. Kopel
 Â
And removing the rental/lease "Gun Free Zone" sticker is like CCW legislation. The protective penumbra given to unarmed peopel does not work if noöne is armed.
You can't take this conceal carry legislaiton and use it as the reason for any downturn in crime of for anything you choose. Crime trends are more complex than that.
I think the Gun-free zone talk is a more of a protest action. That's a hunch on my part, even though I think it's legitimate protest, and rather brave in my opinion.
All of the studies I have seen indicate that gun crime stays the same or goes down when CCW laws are in effect. I'm sure there are lies, damned lies and statistics on both sides. But they aren't the point, which is that we have a right to keep and bare arms and repealing the Second Amendment is the only way to stop it. And I personally would take to the hills with my gun before I'd let that happen.
That's a good point, Digger. Took a lot of thought to come up with that one, I'm sure.
If it's too difficult for you to actually engage yourself beyond petty taunts and namecalling you'll probably get little in the way of an answer from me.
"I wonder why our friend doesn't come back. "
The answer may say more about us than it does about Dennis. So you might not want to know.
"Shakespeare's grand potential and Mahatma's guiding light,
Shakespeare wrote fiction, and Mahatma was a pedophile.
I don't believe so Rick. We are all still here. Dennis left. The answer lies with him..."Odd man out".
Are you claiming some kind of victory?
I don't think you have a grasp of how I think, yet.
Is that a threat tyrant. I get the impression you only feel and do not know how to think.
I like Dennis but he was getting nowhere here. He'd rather preach to the choir.
I e-mailed him a week or so ago, just asking how he was doing.
He didn't reply.
"Is that a threat tyrant."
I don't know how I'd be threatening you with what I said.
Do you often feel threatened, or in fear of tyranny? If so, maybe that's something you should explore. You should think more, and not feel as much. You know, like what you said about me.
"He'd rather preach to the choir."
Seems to me, he just likes to preach.
The irony is, for all his condemnation of Bush, his Green Party vote -- and that of the rest of the shade-grown coffee drinkers -- helped the man get elected.
No victory Rick.
I found Dennis's extreme views facinating sometimes.
He's now expressing his views to The Liberal Slant and The Dissident Voice. That is preaching to the choir or himself.
The irony is, for all his condemnation of Bush, his Green Party vote -- and that of the rest of the shade-grown coffee drinkers -- helped the man get elected.
As if Gore were any better an option to a Greenie or a Libertarian.
Not sure what your opinion of Al Gore has to do with that I said.
But since the discussion has now moved to the irrelevant, should we carry it forward to the popular voteor do you want to drop the subject right now for lack of relevance?
popular vote
Since we are on the topic of irrelevance let's discuss the popular vote.
Not sure what your opinion of Al Gore has to do with that I said.
It's the opinion of the Greenies and Libertarians.
They don't like Gore any more than they like Dubya.
I see the Liberals are freaking out about CCW. Throwing out all sorts of "The sky is falling" gibberish.
I've yet to see them present one iota of fact to back up their claims that society is now crumbling because of CCW.
I have yet to see anyone claim society is crumbling, just because of CCW.
Then you're not paying attention.
Just last night on the news they had a couple of dipshits claiming there were going to be all sorts of gun deaths because of CCW.
They provided nothing to back up such claims.
All they provided was the same old "Allowing people to carry guns is bad". They fail to take their logic full circle and realize that criminals don't give a shit about the law. That they'll carry guns anyway. And all you're doing by not allowing CCW, is preventing the good guys, the law abiding citizens, from carrying.
BTW Bill, what's so poorly written about the law?
Went to the Twins game yesterday p.m. While I was walking in, the voice on the PA system "requested" in a kind of plaintive way, that people not try to bring guns into the Metrodome.
Mininsters are asking that people not bring guns into their church. Ditto with businesses.
I hate seeing this. This has potential for division like nothing I've seen in awhile.
And for what?
While I was walking in, the voice on the PA system "requested" in a kind of plaintive way, that people not try to bring guns into the Metrodome.
That will stop the bad guys from packing their Glock?
Mininsters are asking that people not bring guns into their church.
Why not? What does it hurt?
I hate seeing this. This has potential for division like nothing I've seen in awhile.
I love it. It brings it all out in the open.
And for what?
For freedom.
PFFFT!!!
Que the f@#$in drum and fife!
That's exactly what I mean by it bringing it all out in the open.
I love it!
Mininsters are asking that people not bring guns into their church.
careful how you word that, rick. its not the minister's church, its the congregation's. i.e. mine and everyone else around me. it might, however, be the minister's flock.
</pedant>
"That's exactly what I mean by it bringing it all out in the open."
That's not what you want.
You want the opportunity to gloat and I've been dumb enough to give it to you.
It's not about gloating. It's about what's right.
Law abiding citizens now have the right to protect themselves against criminals.
Criminals didn't care about CCW.
we've always had that right, jt. now we get to back it up on even ground. the cop who wrote the report of my stolen stereo the other day, actually agreed with my dad about instituting street justice. the only downside is that instead of investigating thefts, they'd be investigating shootings.
The problem is that the anti CCW is based on pure emotion. Every fact and figure from the 34 other states support that. It's not the wild west. It's not a scene out of Mad Max either. There were alot of people already authorized to carry before and I didn't see one story on ANY legally liscenced C&C holder who shot anyone or committed a crime with his or her gun. If there had been it would have been paraded around as see, look here. Does that mean it won't happen ? Nope, anything's possible. That same person might have done the same act liscenced or not. There already could have been and probably were guns at the Metrodome & Megamall. The problem is you didn't know about it and nothing happened. The shootings occured BTW at the Megamall were done by gangmembers.I'm sure upstanding folks like that went through the process right ? Sure. Perhaps these thugs will be less apt to cap people at the Mall now that they know that other than the security guard carrying a flashlight there might be someone carrying a weapon if they choose to try anything. That might be just enough doubt to make a difference.
The guns already were there many who were criminals. Now lw abiding people do and suddenly it's going to be apocolypse. As JT said, and I agree, I haven't seen one fact from the anti CCW crowd, Plenty of emotion and doomsday predictions but no real facts.
BTW for the record I will probably go through the class and apply but I doub't I'll ever carry.
you and me both, luv.
ares 5/29/03 1:25pm
I should edit that. I will carry when hunting. :)
What if you are carrying, and you go to a restaraunt and they have a sign saying "No Guns Allowed.
Even if I'm not "Packing", I'll go someplace else to eat. Same goes for any other business.
I agree with you on that one THX. Besides a restaurant or store that dose not allow guns is asking for some gang banger to come in and rob or kill someone. The anti gun lobby was handing out no guns in this house signs at the Cathedral how much you want to bet that a house with a sign like that get's robbed as opposed to my house that has a sign that say's this house guarded by shotgun three nights a week you guess witch three.
What would I do ?..........
Shoot the sign down and then threaten the manager with my new gun :)
Seriously, even though as I said I won't or highly doubt I ever would carry. I wouldn't go into that resturaunt probably, because as ESD pointed out it would be an opne invitation IMO for any criminal to know a whole group is unarmed. Criminals are opportunistic and prey wherever they percieve weakness or the best chance for success.
But that brings up something more important to me. First off if it is a private business etc. I have no problem with them banning guns if they want to. It's their business, same with smoking bans, the government has no right to tell them what they can or can't have. But what's puzzling is that by posting signs saying no guns allowed they are obviously trusting or assuming that these people will obey their rules and not carry their weapon which I'm sure they would. That's of course because the people carrying them are law abiding, hmm imagine that. Criminal's aren't so there have and are guns already all over creation by those who aren't law abiding and yet someone feels less safe becasue the law abiding ones now just might be on an even footing with the criminals ?
What's really ironic about all of this is that people have legally been carrying guns into bars, churches, stores... for a long time in MN. Just not as many.
Not to mention that criminals, as Luv pointed out, the ones you need to be afraid of, don't give a shit about what your stupid little sign says.
They act as if that little sign somehow has some sort of magical powers.
PalinaJOE!
Remember the aftermath of the resturant shooting in Kaleen (sp?) Texas?
If I remember correctly, many people wished they would have had a firearm on them at the time. I think one of the victim's daughter was instrumental in getting the Texas ccw law passed.
The chances of you actually being in a restaraunt that is invaded by some two-bit hood with a gun is about as good as you winning the Powerball Lottery.
Just last week during a carjacking, a woman was shot three times in the face. A nurse stopped to help her and she was also shot at. The asshole that did it got away. If either of those women had guns, he may not have.
But then again maybe he would of still gotten away, but that's hardly the point.
If I saw a restaurant that said "guns welcomed here", I'd go in.
How about Banks that have signs that say no guns allowed ?
And by the way Bill, if it isn't going to make a bit of difference then why all the hubub ?
BTW take a look at Florida's crime rate before CCW passed. Remember all the tourists getting killed down there some years back. IT was awful. Well it slowed down then didn't it.
Also the 34 other states have all seen a decline or crime stay steady.
On the reverse, when Australia put guns in big piles and melted them down and made them illegal, violent crime like home invasions, rape, murder etc. went up almost 400%.
"BTW take a look at Florida's crime rate before CCW passed. Remember all the tourists getting killed down there some years back. IT was awful."
I was living in Florida at that time. Most of the robberies were of foreign tourists that were staked out at the airport. I don't think a lot of Germans and Italians bring a lot of firepower with them on vacation.
Also, the robbers were keying on cars with license plates that said "rental" or "lease" right on the plate. Once that was eliminated it cut a lot of roadside robberies.
You can't take this conceal carry legislaiton and use it as the reason for any downturn in crime of for anything you choose. Crime trends are more complex than that.
And, no, I don't think CCW turns our large metro areas into Dodge City. Large American cities have always been Dodge City, frontier towns. Wide open places with lots of easy money to be had. It's in the culture. It's in the history.
CCW proponents LIKE Dodge City. It's a defining image.
And why might that have been. Could it be connected to the "Gun-free zone" equivilant sticker on those cars?
And removing the rental/lease "Gun Free Zone" sticker is like CCW legislation. The protective penumbra given to unarmed peopel does not work if noöne is armed.
You can't take this conceal carry legislaiton and use it as the reason for any downturn in crime of for anything you choose. Crime trends are more complex than that.
that's a two-way street, rick.......
Allan:
I think the Gun-free zone talk is a more of a protest action. That's a hunch on my part, even though I think it's legitimate protest, and rather brave in my opinion.
All of the studies I have seen indicate that gun crime stays the same or goes down when CCW laws are in effect. I'm sure there are lies, damned lies and statistics on both sides. But they aren't the point, which is that we have a right to keep and bare arms and repealing the Second Amendment is the only way to stop it. And I personally would take to the hills with my gun before I'd let that happen.
You talk the talk, Muskwa. But do you walk the walk?
Search your heart. What has the Gun Culture done for America? Exactly, why are we a better people for it?
spoken like a true tyrant.
Yeah, what is this "Gun culture"?
Our culture.
That's a good point, Digger. Took a lot of thought to come up with that one, I'm sure.
If it's too difficult for you to actually engage yourself beyond petty taunts and namecalling you'll probably get little in the way of an answer from me.
"Gun Culture" = Our culture
You've seen too many Michael Moore films.
I know. I just needed to see one.
I heard on the radio this morning that Mr. Moore may be in a little trouble for possibly fabricating part of his documentary.
Anyone else heard anything?