Well, if I was working at a filling-station aka fast-food-market, I wouldn't want any more guns around either. I mean, those guys get robbed and shot and killed, more than ANY other group of employees, In The Nation.
They do, and that's exactly why if I worked at one I'd have one. Do you think the thugs who shot and killed a 19 year old a few months back in MPLS would have cared if there was a no gun sign ? How is that sign going to make anyone safer ? Seems to me the guy might be alive today if he did. We'll never know, that was before CCW. He wouldn't even have had that choice before the law. Sadly it's too late to know. The father of the young man was one of the people who feel we should be able to carry if we're law abiding. If I was a liquor or convienence store employee I'd want law abiding people there who were armed.
Thing is that there have been 12,000 permits already. Not one of those people have killed someone or comitted a crime with their gun. Ottertail county had the highest amount of permits per capita. Their crime rate didn't go up nor did accidental shootings or wild west shootouts.
I'm sure the criminals though will now be deterred by a sign, we wouldn't want any more guns around now would we.
" My first no guns allowed sign. Think I'll start looking for some where else to buy gas. "
All you're doing is buying gas. What difference does it make? If you're paying for gas, some cheap, junky pastry and a Mountain Dew in broad daylight what are the chances that a robbery will happen?
But that's now what it's about is it? It's about MY gun and MY rights.
"And fold don't you think a no guns allowed sign is an open invit to some crack head"
Them crackheads are crazy aren't they? It's a damn ghetto drug, you know.
I'm not suprised at Rick's views. The upper crust, jet-setters tend not to grasp what's important to the blue collar stiffs.
If the liberals wouldn't have blasted away at guns and gun rights so heavily over the last 15 years, just maybe the CC issue wouldn't be such a big deal.
I've seen the "no guns allowed" signs all over Duluth. Hotels, styling salons, bicycle shops. Intrestingly not at any banks so far. But for those of you who don't know, Duluth prides itself on not allowing anything.
But that's now what it's about is it? It's about MY gun and MY rights.
"And fold don't you think a no guns allowed sign is an open invit to some crack head"
Them crack heads are crazy aren't they? It's a damn ghetto drug, you know.
I live on the East side of St. Paul and it might not be a ghetto but there are crack houses within two blocks of my house, and I work at night so it's not during the day that I buy gas Rick.
Guns make me nervous. But if the ability to walk openly down the street carrying a gun is what you want, I was right before -- Dodge City was your idea of a model community.
no, but the constitution is very very clear, rick. the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. so, if guns make you nervous, there's ways to deal with that. move someplace that doesn't allow them, or work to get the amendmend that allows for us to keep and bear arms repealed. its quite simple.
"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"
I guess you consciously choose to leave out the part about the "well-regulated militia" which forms the basis for the second part sentence and has resulted in all the confusion that surrounds it. But that's often done when someone needs to take the amendmant out of context in order to justify something.
It's not "very, very clear.' The intent is as it seems, very, very murky.
Do you yearn for Dodge City, Ares? Or is it the government you're scared of?
well in that case every man from the age if 17 to 47 in the state of minnesota ought to be issued an m-16. because we're members of said well regulated militia. i don't yearn for dodge city. i wanna be able to do what the constitution of this country says i can do.
It happens to be my day off are you telling me I have to go and get gas on the weekend who the %#*& do you think you are you little milk toast hunk of $#!?. Just because you live in a little rich $&#@* town you think you can tell me my rights why don't you move to Cuba you commi $@&%$#@.
Probably can't give you a rational reason, Torpedo. Some people can't fly. Some people don't like clowns. It's not a cripplling phobia. Just a general feeling of uneasiness.
You're damned right I'm scared of the government. It can steal your money and your possessions without a trial. It can destroy the father-child relationship without charges or a trial. It can determine how you use or do not use the land you own. It can determine whether you get into a college or get a job. It pervades every aspect of our lives and we have little immediate recourse.
what doesn't make sense, rick? you allege that the purpose of the second amendment is for militia use. given that, you shouldn't have any problems at all with me owning an assault rifle, given that i am an able-bodied male between the ages of 17 and 45. yet you do. and i'm the one that doesn't make sense?
ever hear of the ucmj, rick? that's about as well-regulated as it comes. and guess what: it well-regulates that unorganised militia just as well as it well-regulates the organised. it just happens to not apply to the unorganised militia most of the time.
but that aside, i still want to know how you can take "the right of the people" and make it mean "the right of the state".
"Seen anyone "pack'in" in your gated, suburban community yet Rick?...hehehe. "
Those places are kinda funny aren't they?
If I lived in a gated suburban community I wouldn't be surprised at all to see guns in the open. The strange paradox that often exists is: the more people are protected and the more freedom they have, the more suspicious they get. That's why people move to gated suburban communties.
Here, they tell me which side of the street I can park on which day. Out in Idaho, (maybe rural Minnesota) you're free to park wherever you want. And they're the ones who are "off the grid" as it were and more worried than anyone about losing freedom.
"BTW, flyrods make me nervous. "
With a flyrod in the hands of some of the guys I fished with -- and me in the vicinity -- I was nervous, too.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
that about sums it up, in a clear coherent sentence, don't you think? regardless of the reason for its existence (the first half of the text), the second half is very clear that the right to keep and bear arms belongs to the people, no one else. why is that so hard for you to comprehend?
It is my belief that about half of the Americans who call themselves liberal do not hold the great majority of positions held by mainstream liberal institutions such as the New York Times editorial page, People for the American Way, and the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. So here is a test of this thesis to be given to anyone who believes he or she is a liberal. If you feel I have omitted a liberal position or have unfairly characterized any of them here, please e-mail me. This is still a work in progress.
Thank you,
Dennis Prager
You say you are a liberal.
Do you believe the following?
1. Standards for admissions to universities, fire departments, etc. should be lowered for people of color.
2. Bilingual education for children of immigrants, rather than immersion in English, is good for them and for America.
3. Murderers should never be put to death.
4. During the Cold War, America should have adopted a nuclear arms freeze.
5. Colleges should not allow ROTC programs.
5. It was wrong to wage war against Saddam Hussein in the Gulf War.
6. Poor parents should not be allowed to have vouchers to send their children to private schools.
7. It is good that trial lawyers and teachers unions are the two biggest contributors to the Democratic Party.
8. Marriage should be redefined from male-female to any two people.
9. A married couple should not have more of a right to adopt a child than two men or two women.
10. The Boy Scouts should not be allowed to use parks or any other public places and should be prohibited from using churches and synagogues for their meetings.
11. The present high tax rates are good.
12. Speech codes on college campuses are good and American values.
13. The Israelis and Palestinians are morally equivalent.
14. The United Nations is a moral force for good in the world, and therefore America should be subservient to it and such international institutions as a world court.
15. It is good that colleges have dropped hundreds of men's sports teams in order to meet gender-based quotas.
16. No abortions can be labeled immoral.
17. Restaurants should be prohibited by law from allowing customers to choose between a smoking and a non-smoking section.
18. High schools should make condoms available to students and teach them how to use them.
19. Racial profiling for terrorists is wrong -- a white American grandmother should as likely be searched as a Saudi young male.
20. Racism and poverty -- not a lack of fathers and a crisis of values -- are the primary causes of violent crime in the inner city.
21. It is wrong and unconstitutional for students to be told, "God bless you" at their graduation.
22. No culture is morally superior to any other.
Those are all liberal positions. How many of them do you hold?
They do, and that's exactly why if I worked at one I'd have one. Do you think the thugs who shot and killed a 19 year old a few months back in MPLS would have cared if there was a no gun sign ? How is that sign going to make anyone safer ? Seems to me the guy might be alive today if he did. We'll never know, that was before CCW. He wouldn't even have had that choice before the law. Sadly it's too late to know. The father of the young man was one of the people who feel we should be able to carry if we're law abiding. If I was a liquor or convienence store employee I'd want law abiding people there who were armed.
Thing is that there have been 12,000 permits already. Not one of those people have killed someone or comitted a crime with their gun. Ottertail county had the highest amount of permits per capita. Their crime rate didn't go up nor did accidental shootings or wild west shootouts.
I'm sure the criminals though will now be deterred by a sign, we wouldn't want any more guns around now would we.
" My first no guns allowed sign. Think I'll start looking for some where else to buy gas. "
All you're doing is buying gas. What difference does it make? If you're paying for gas, some cheap, junky pastry and a Mountain Dew in broad daylight what are the chances that a robbery will happen?
But that's now what it's about is it? It's about MY gun and MY rights.
"And fold don't you think a no guns allowed sign is an open invit to some crack head"
Them crackheads are crazy aren't they? It's a damn ghetto drug, you know.
I'm not suprised at Rick's views. The upper crust, jet-setters tend not to grasp what's important to the blue collar stiffs.
If the liberals wouldn't have blasted away at guns and gun rights so heavily over the last 15 years, just maybe the CC issue wouldn't be such a big deal.
I've seen the "no guns allowed" signs all over Duluth. Hotels, styling salons, bicycle shops. Intrestingly not at any banks so far. But for those of you who don't know, Duluth prides itself on not allowing anything.
Upper crust, jet-setter?
The guys I went trout fishing with this past week would get a kick out of hearing me called that.
Don't make assumptions, Torpedo. You don't know a damn thing about me.
I'm going to a gun show now. Should I look for something nice for Rick?
Perhaps something in a soft pink semi auto with a matching lace holster. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
Let's see Rick. Hong Kong? Bahrain? on business. Not something the low and middle class do.
Wouldn't you agree?
It's about MY gun and MY rights.
It's about everybody's right, Rick. Rights belong to individuals, not groups.
But that's now what it's about is it? It's about MY gun and MY rights.
"And fold don't you think a no guns allowed sign is an open invit to some crack head"
Them crack heads are crazy aren't they? It's a damn ghetto drug, you know.
I live on the East side of St. Paul and it might not be a ghetto but there are crack houses within two blocks of my house, and I work at night so it's not during the day that I buy gas Rick.
Tell me what rights the CCers have now that they didn't have before.
They could always keep and bear arms. CC is a new privilege in my estimation.
".... and I work at night so it's not during the day that I buy gas Rick. "
I notice you're up now. The station's open, I'm sure.
They could always keep and bear arms. CC is a new privilege in my estimation.
tell you what, rick. you try walking around with a gun in plain view on your hip and tell me what happens to you. go on. try it.
Guns make me nervous. But if the ability to walk openly down the street carrying a gun is what you want, I was right before -- Dodge City was your idea of a model community.
You yearn for those days, don't you Ares?
Guns make me nervous
fair enough. move to canada or work to get the second amendment repealed.
So I guess you'd rather be a wiesass than answer my questions Ares?
no, but the constitution is very very clear, rick. the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. so, if guns make you nervous, there's ways to deal with that. move someplace that doesn't allow them, or work to get the amendmend that allows for us to keep and bear arms repealed. its quite simple.
"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"
I guess you consciously choose to leave out the part about the "well-regulated militia" which forms the basis for the second part sentence and has resulted in all the confusion that surrounds it. But that's often done when someone needs to take the amendmant out of context in order to justify something.
It's not "very, very clear.' The intent is as it seems, very, very murky.
Do you yearn for Dodge City, Ares? Or is it the government you're scared of?
well in that case every man from the age if 17 to 47 in the state of minnesota ought to be issued an m-16. because we're members of said well regulated militia. i don't yearn for dodge city. i wanna be able to do what the constitution of this country says i can do.
So it's not about self protection to you.
You wanna do it, because you wanna do it.
Talk to Crabgrass the legal drug advocate. The two of you have a lot in common.
It happens to be my day off are you telling me I have to go and get gas on the weekend who the %#*& do you think you are you little milk toast hunk of $#!?. Just because you live in a little rich $&#@* town you think you can tell me my rights why don't you move to Cuba you commi $@&%$#@.
i'd imagine that the answer is yes, bill.
The answer is no on being arrested. The phrase "concealed carry" is a misnomer. If you have a permit to CC, you can carry it anywhere on your person.
Rick, why does a lifeless piece of steel make you nervous? Why doesn't the person behind the lifeless piece of steel make you nervous?
Probably can't give you a rational reason, Torpedo. Some people can't fly. Some people don't like clowns. It's not a cripplling phobia. Just a general feeling of uneasiness.
Or is it the government you're scared of?
That is the reasoning behind the Second Amendment -- to allow citizens to protect themselves from the encroachment of government.
You're damned right I'm scared of the government. It can steal your money and your possessions without a trial. It can destroy the father-child relationship without charges or a trial. It can determine how you use or do not use the land you own. It can determine whether you get into a college or get a job. It pervades every aspect of our lives and we have little immediate recourse.
How could you live in such an awful place?
But you know the answer to that, Cowslip: Denial
It is not a 1-issue statement about the "right to bear arms", It is also about serving in the "Militia", is it not?
so be it, bill. where's my gun? 10 usc 311
Do you have any intention of starting to make some sense on this thread, Ares?
what doesn't make sense, rick? you allege that the purpose of the second amendment is for militia use. given that, you shouldn't have any problems at all with me owning an assault rifle, given that i am an able-bodied male between the ages of 17 and 45. yet you do. and i'm the one that doesn't make sense?
I guess the answer to my question is no.
i guess to you it would be.
you allege that the purpose of the second amendment is for militia "
No, a "well regulated militia" Not a milita that is regulated at the far end of "loose."
And especially not a militia made up of Toms, Dicks, and Muskwas who happen to see some black helicopters in their corn flakes.
Seen anyone "pack'in" in your gated, suburban community yet Rick?...hehehe.
Alot of people think this is an awful place to live. I offered Dennis a free 1 way trip to his Cuban utopia. He never even acknowledged the offer.
BTW, flyrods make me nervous.
ever hear of the ucmj, rick? that's about as well-regulated as it comes. and guess what: it well-regulates that unorganised militia just as well as it well-regulates the organised. it just happens to not apply to the unorganised militia most of the time.
but that aside, i still want to know how you can take "the right of the people" and make it mean "the right of the state".
"Seen anyone "pack'in" in your gated, suburban community yet Rick?...hehehe. "
Those places are kinda funny aren't they?
If I lived in a gated suburban community I wouldn't be surprised at all to see guns in the open. The strange paradox that often exists is: the more people are protected and the more freedom they have, the more suspicious they get. That's why people move to gated suburban communties.
Here, they tell me which side of the street I can park on which day. Out in Idaho, (maybe rural Minnesota) you're free to park wherever you want. And they're the ones who are "off the grid" as it were and more worried than anyone about losing freedom.
"BTW, flyrods make me nervous. "
With a flyrod in the hands of some of the guys I fished with -- and me in the vicinity -- I was nervous, too.
"but that aside, i still want to know how you can take "the right of the people" and make it mean "the right of the state"."
Can you express what you want to express in clear, coherent sentences?
Rethink your ideas and come back to this discussion later.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
that about sums it up, in a clear coherent sentence, don't you think? regardless of the reason for its existence (the first half of the text), the second half is very clear that the right to keep and bear arms belongs to the people, no one else. why is that so hard for you to comprehend?
Man, looks like I missed the fun.
Looser gun laws, an extra hour for the bars to stay open and a long Independance Day weekend.
The fun's just starting.
oh yeah, the sky sure is falling, isn't it?
They haven't shot enough holes in it yet.
It is my belief that about half of the Americans who call themselves liberal do not hold the great majority of positions held by mainstream liberal institutions such as the New York Times editorial page, People for the American Way, and the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. So here is a test of this thesis to be given to anyone who believes he or she is a liberal. If you feel I have omitted a liberal position or have unfairly characterized any of them here, please e-mail me. This is still a work in progress.
Thank you,
Dennis Prager
You say you are a liberal.
Do you believe the following?
1. Standards for admissions to universities, fire departments, etc. should be lowered for people of color.
2. Bilingual education for children of immigrants, rather than immersion in English, is good for them and for America.
3. Murderers should never be put to death.
4. During the Cold War, America should have adopted a nuclear arms freeze.
5. Colleges should not allow ROTC programs.
5. It was wrong to wage war against Saddam Hussein in the Gulf War.
6. Poor parents should not be allowed to have vouchers to send their children to private schools.
7. It is good that trial lawyers and teachers unions are the two biggest contributors to the Democratic Party.
8. Marriage should be redefined from male-female to any two people.
9. A married couple should not have more of a right to adopt a child than two men or two women.
10. The Boy Scouts should not be allowed to use parks or any other public places and should be prohibited from using churches and synagogues for their meetings.
11. The present high tax rates are good.
12. Speech codes on college campuses are good and American values.
13. The Israelis and Palestinians are morally equivalent.
14. The United Nations is a moral force for good in the world, and therefore America should be subservient to it and such international institutions as a world court.
15. It is good that colleges have dropped hundreds of men's sports teams in order to meet gender-based quotas.
16. No abortions can be labeled immoral.
17. Restaurants should be prohibited by law from allowing customers to choose between a smoking and a non-smoking section.
18. High schools should make condoms available to students and teach them how to use them.
19. Racial profiling for terrorists is wrong -- a white American grandmother should as likely be searched as a Saudi young male.
20. Racism and poverty -- not a lack of fathers and a crisis of values -- are the primary causes of violent crime in the inner city.
21. It is wrong and unconstitutional for students to be told, "God bless you" at their graduation.
22. No culture is morally superior to any other.
Those are all liberal positions. How many of them do you hold?
People in an urban C.I. of 4 make me nervous.
Hey, Torpedo!
Boo!
That was what I was trying to do.
since maybe 5 Liberals in all of America would accept all of those positions, rhetorical and jaded as they are.
How many would you accept, Bill Fold?
Rick?
Those are loaded questions. I'm not going to answer them. Some of them require more than a yes or no.
There's a lot of "culture war" questions on issues that interest Prager greatly, but not me.