General Beer Chatter

Can you give me examples of what's been changed wtr core themes, Sparky?

Actually I'm seriously interested, not trying to be confrontational.

Hee. I have been around the block a couple of times on this one, Frosti's just jealous of my zealotry - or, er, pure vision. :)

The thing that decided it for me was what seems like a simple thing, but really isn't. (I don't know how well you remember the books, amie - so I'll just sketch it out and if you have specific questions, ask away.) I read in one of the reviews before the first movie even came out that they had replaced the elf that came and saved the hobbits and Aragorn from the Nine Ringwraiths on their way to Rivendell. Now not only did they replace him (Glorfindel, I believe), they replaced him with... Aragorn's beloved, a female half-elven Arwen Evenstar (played by Liv Tyler - please!). Now I'm not being all chauvanistic here. There are a couple of things that bother me here though - one, Glorfindel is a full blood high elf-lord. He's one of the reasons the Nine jumped in the river instead of running away to relative safety, or possibly chasing Frodo after the river went down. ("caught between the river risen against them and an elf-lord in his wrath" I think is how Tokien puts it, roughly) I think it throws a wrench in the plot, myself.
The second, and what I would consider more "core" issue, is with the gender issue. As I see it, Tolkien created (whether consciously or no is open to debate) a world that mirrors metaphysical truths (the Tao, with its Yin and Yang, etc). The feminine and masculine principles are set out pretty clearly, mirrored by the genders of the characters. To take a female character portraying the feminine principle (nurturing, beautiful, peace-loving, receptive energy, mother of all)in the books, Arwen, and have her take on a masculine role (warrior, projective energy) is... just wrong, as I understand it. There is also the matter that one is pure elven (spirit being), and one is half-elven (tainted spirit or purer human, however you want to look at it) - one is trying to help a less evolved race on its way, the other is waiting to meld with humanity as a sacrifice for the future. Mixing their roles and character attributes are messing with the portrayal of higher concepts.
I say this knowing that they probably made this decision in the name of cutting scenes they didn't have time for, editing for content, etc. This doesn't forgive it though, in my book, but is ample reason why the project should not have been attempted in the first place. If in the first review I came across I came across a violation this blatant, what else would I see if I saw the movies? People may ask how I can judge without having seen the movies. I would reply that I can't see the movies without further injuring the conception that I have in my head (which I do NOT want to do), and I wouldn't enjoy it anyway - I would be complaining/crying/furious the entire time about what they've done. I have to admit that I closed my eyes during a trailer that ran at the theater. I had to, to stop laughing. I saw the beginning of a scene and figured out who the actors were supposed to be and it was so funny that I started laughing hysterically. :)
This not-watching-the-movies thing is the closest my wife and I have had to a fight in our going on 6 years of marriage (or the 6 or so years before that actually). She thought I was being closed-minded, and I couldn't make her see my point of view. It is hard to explain, but maybe you see what I'm trying to say here.

As you might be able to tell by this rant, I hold the books almost sacred, and the whole idea of someone else remaking them - even if it was a sincere attempt at homage - was profane and better left undone. Their granduer is lessened now, if somewhat better known to the common person on the street.

I think I understand your position, Sparky.

One of the things I strongly disliked about Tolkien is the gender roles, because I saw them exactly like you did, only in a negative way. I have an ongoing argument with someone about gender roles, and I'm never going to be receptive to that sort of limitation even in in the fantasy genre. OTOH, I can see that it's very important to you, and why you'd choose to skip the movies.

I did enjoy the read though.

yeah, I wondered about that with the gender role thing. :) I'm not saying that my understanding of Tolkien/and or the metaphysical is the way it is in "real life" as regards the proper "role" of males and female human beings, btw. We all have to live and learn through this lifetime (and the next, and the next, ad infinitum), and however we choose to do it is fine by me. I find riches of learning in the framework of Tolkien though, and do think it reflects an ideal paradigm of how things can/will be. We're obviously a long way from that ideal these days, but I find viewing the paradigm a useful and reassuring thing. I don't see the gender roles as a limitation, in this case.

Thanks for your understanding. You are a very open-minded individual! :)

If gender roles as you defined them up there are some form of utopia, count me out, ok? I don't think I qualify as any of the things you list as typically feminine, except maybe peace-loving, nor would I choose to be any different than I am.

It is limiting then, seen from my prospective. To be an "good" woman in this ideal paradigm you describe, I would have to deny most of what makes me amie. I'm not willing to do that. And I'd like to think that as we move closer to an ideal society, the absolute reverse from what you describe will be true.

You are a very open-minded individual!

Thanks, I strive to be openminded and nonjudgemental. Given my own identifications, it would be hypocritical of me to do any less.

Ohoh. I forgot the Your Mileage May Vary part, huh?

Sorry, Sparky, it was a difficult day.

Would you believe both?

Thanks Frosti and backatcha.

Sorry to hear about the BIL. Congarats on the homework.

Amie - no problem. I do understand your position as well, I think. Someday maybe we can spend a nice long coffee break IRL, and chat about limitations - perceptions or reality. :)

That's too bad, Frosti. I'll keep BIL in mind. Tell me, again, what you're studying?

Thanks Sparky, I'd like that.

Has anyone read any commentary on LOTR pointing out the irony of the amount of technology going into telling Mr. T's anti-modern story?

Nope, haven't seen one Steve.

I would venture this opinion, though - Tolkien's story is about a chapter in human development, which we are continuing. The struggle against modernism/technology/materialism is the current "Dark Lord".
Thoughts? A little irony there, but it more closely resembles paradox - which is the modus operandi of the Universe, after all. :)

I think that religious fundamentalism (which share's anti-modernism, as a matter of fact) is a far greater danger to the world than is technology.

That's not much of a stretch given the events of the last three-four years.

Right.

No doubt that extremism (on all sides I might add) is a big danger to the world. If you wipe all extremism from the world stage though, we will still have the modern dilemna of how to bring meaning to a world gone too far into a technological society.

We need a little balance, is all I'm saying. :)

More beer!

I think it's ironic that we're discussing the dreaded technology on the internet.

Natch.

The "dreaded technology" has its positive uses, never said otherwise! :) It's when we become addicted to it to the detriment of experiencing RL (or even start to make distinctions like IRL) that it becomes a problem - or when we think that any problem can be solved if we only create the technology.

A sample off the news I just heard - paraphrase "Scientists are testing a new drug that clears blocked arteries, it will be like Drano for the circulatory system." You know what clears arteries? Living a healthy life. But we want to live how we want to live, and then take a magic pill, or get a magic surgery, fix it and keep truckin.

Ah, P (my husband) calls that a "high tech solution for a low tech problem."

I think the problem is less with technology and more with the kind of disposable society Americans in. Moving to a developing country really has made that distinction plain to me.

I agree completely. Unfortunately, thanks to the WTO, multi-nationals, etc. - Western disposable consumerism seems to be spreading like wildfire on the prairie. I'm hoping everyone wakes up, smells the Jamaican Blue Mountain blend roasting, and downshifts before we hit the big curve by the cliff. :)

Does this mean I have to give up my fresh roasted Colombian coffee for less than $3 a pound? Hee.

Speaking of, if you'd like some, I'll add your name to the distribution list next time, Sparky. Email me a snail mail addy.

No, I think that is a fine example of buying locally, and thinking globally. :)
Thanks for the offer amie, I'll check with the wife, she actually drinks the stuff. I just like the smell, and its invigorating effect on sleepy people. :)

Whew. Thank the gods.

Lemme know. I'll be mailing for Christmas.

Deity be praised!

I'll let you know if I some. It might make a nice gift idea. :)

See, it might make a nice gift idea for Frosti! :D

I was eyeing the Winter Warmer brew last night, and it's nowhere near 10 days yet. Patience is a virtue, I keep telling myself...

You'll be getting yours, Frosti. Give Mrs Sparky a chance.

Java programming.

Sigh. Another computer geek. No wonder you're on the list.

It's 75 and mostly sunny here during the day. All day. Everyday. Gets boring.

Tease.

Gotta' admit, it's all Javanese to me.

Hmm. amie says he's a tease, and the word "weight" is used a lot - weighted nipple clamps?

So much for the deductive reasoning bit. :)

Now you're the tease.

Help help, I'm being ganged up upon.

Ah, a nice cold shower in the morning - nothing like it.

amie, I noticed this. How is this handled down there, or is it? Sounds like a good, noble idea being horribly wronged to me.

The War on Peace
Colombian villagers are dying to be neutral
—By Bill Weinberg, Americas.org

November 6, 2003 Issue

Bush and company aren't only ones to adopt the "with-us-or-against us" rhetoric to frame the issue of domestic dissent. In Colombia, individuals and communities committed to neutrality and peace have long been the targets of brutal violence by warring factions.

Bill Winberg, writing for Americas.org -- the website of The Resource Center of the Americas, an organization dedicated to promoting human rights, democratic participation, economic justice, and cross-cultural understanding in the Americas -- reports on one such community whose steps toward peace have been met with massacres.

Since 1996, more than 100 people have been killed by righ-wing paramilitaries in San Jose, the principal settlement in an unincorporated township of 32 settlements located near the Caribbean gulf of Uraba. The town is part of a larger "Peace Community" that includes the nearby settlements of Arenas and La Unión. Committed to peace since 1997, San Jose's citizens and community council, made up of eight elected members, "[reject] the violence of all sides in Colombia's civil war."

Although the young men in the settlement are deprived of both education and jobs for committing themselves to peace, it is of little consequence in an out-of-the-way and mostly self-sufficient community. Besides growing their own food and selling a small amount to export companies, the people of San Jose also espouse an ecological ethic of living low-impact lives in their fragile rain forest.

In honor of those who have died, projects in San Jose -- the community center and the fountain outside of it, the maize granary, the carpentry workshop and the preschool -- all bear the names of local martyrs whose greatest offense was believing that violence did not pave the path to peace.
-- Eric Larson

This place is a goat-rodeo, Sparky. I don't even know where to start.

I hadn't heard of this settlement, but I'll be happy to ask P about it.

I wish there were some good guys in all this. But there just aren't.

Okay. I'm sorry, doesn't sound like a good sitch.
I really don't have much of a grip on recent goings on down there in the deep South, guess it's time to do some more research.

Love the phrase "goat-rodeo" though, that's a kick!

Goat rodeo is a P-ism. My husband is full of them. Or full of it. Or something.

It does have a very good mental image associated with it tho, very effective phrase.

Pithy phrase. Woody word.

The larch. There's a good woody word.

Monty Python anyone?

The "Do you know how you caught me?" bit bugged me for... well, it's still bugging me. I was smoking when I first read that, and spent about 2 hours at the laundromat smoking and reviewing all the implications of that in my mind.

Yay! Frosti is back on the trail of Spenser addiction/worship! :)
That reminds me - aime, did I give you the link for "The Spensarium" yet? Hokey name, cool site.

Too much time here? Nah. Now if you could find, say, the "your preferences" button and pick it out of the clutter, that would be impressive...