Kerry is spoon feeding the liberals and they're slurping it up. Didn't he vote against the stealth fighter and bomber? The F-18 and other weapons that serve so well today?
Didn't he vote against the stealth fighter and bomber? The F-18 and other weapons that serve so well today?
I don't know. I'd have to research that.
But I do know that he voted against funding for the current Iraqi war, yet is now saying Bush sent the troops in without enough body armor and such. The hypocrit voted against the funding for such things IMHO.
There were more than just a FEW reasons why Kerry voted for or against the Bills in question, and they know that before they run their ads. Yes and I am sure he'll tell you that those were his reasons even ones that may contradict each other.
And John McCain agrees. May be he took to many beatings while he ws a POW.
how about we get back to your un-patriotic assumption that McCain, an honorable veteren and man who has somehow managed to serve his country as a soldier and POW and for the last 22 years as a Congressman and Senator, his somehow brain-damaged?
There's nothing wrong with McCain's mental health and to even suggest otherwise is an ugly lie, and to suggest it's because he represented his country in one of the most honorable ways possible is reprehensible.
I got this in an e-mail, Is it for real or some kind of stupid scam??
HONORING A TRAITOR This is for all the kids born in the 70's that do not remember this, and didn't have to bear the burden, that our fathers, mothers, and older brothers and sisters had to bear. Jane Fonda is being honored as one of the "100 Women of the Century." Unfortunately, many have forgotten and still countless others have never known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the idea of our country but specific men who served and sacrificed during Vietnam. The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot. The pilot's name is Jerry Driscoll, a River Rat. In 1968, the former Commandant of the USAF Survival School was a POW in Ho Lo Prison-the "Hanoi Hilton." Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJ's, he was ordered to describe for a visiting American "Peace Activist" the "lenient and humane treatment" he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda, was clubbed, and dragged away. During the subsequent beating, he fell forward upon the camp Commandant's feet, which sent that officer berserk. In '78, the AF Col. still suffered from double vision (which permanently ended his flying days) from the Vietnamese Col.'s frenzied application of a wooden baton. From 1963-65, Col. Larry Carrigan was in the 47FW/DO (F-4E's). He spent 6 years in the "Hilton"- the first three of which he was "missing in action". His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the cleaned, fed, clothed routine in preparation for a "peace delegation" visit. They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his SSN on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and "Are you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?" Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of paper. She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge and handed him the little pile of papers. Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col. Carrigan was almost number four but he survived, which is the only reason we know about her actions that day. I was a civilian economic development advisor in Vietnam, and was captured by the North Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in 1968, and held for over 5 years. I spent 27 months in solitary confinement, one year in a cage in Cambodia, and one year in a "black box" in Hanoi. My North Vietnamese captors deliberately poisoned and murdered a female missionary, a nurse in a leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South Vietnam, whom I buried in the jungle near the Cambodian border. At one time, I was weighing approximately 90 lbs. (My normal weight is 170 lbs.) We were Jane Fonda's "war criminals." When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist political officer if I would be willing to meet with Jane Fonda. I said yes, for I would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs received different from the treatment purported by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda, as "humane and lenient." Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a large amount of steel placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane till my arms dipped. I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda for a couple of hours after I was released. I asked her if she would be willing to debate me on TV. She did not answer me. This does not exemplify someone who should be honored as part of "100 Years of Great Women." Lest we forget..."100 years of great women" should never include a traitor whose hands are covered with the blood of so many patriots. There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Hanoi Jane's participation in blatant treason, is one of them.
...Whether the war was right or wrong, those who risked (and gave) their lives fighting it deserve respect, and for Fonda to brand men who were held captive and tortured as "liars" and "hypocrites" (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) in order to defend her political views was and is unpardonable.
The most prominent example of a clash between private citizen protest and governmental military policy in recent history occurred in July 1972, when actress Jane Fonda arrived in Hanoi, North Vietnam, and began a two-week tour of the country conducted by uniformed military hosts. Aside from visiting villages, hospitals, schools, and factories, Fonda also posed for pictures in which she was shown applauding North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gunners, was photographed peering into the sights of an NVA anti-aircraft artillery launcher, and made ten propagandistic Tokyo Rose-like radio broadcasts in which she denounced American political and military leaders as "war criminals." She also spoke with eight American POWs at a carefully arranged "press conference," POWS who had been tortured by their North Vietnamese captors to force them to meet with Fonda, deny they had been tortured, and decry the American war effort. Fonda apparently didn't notice (or care) that the POWs were delivering their lines under duress or find it unusual the she was not allowed to visit the prisoner-of-war camp (commonly known as the "Hanoi Hilton") itself. She merely went home and told the world that "[the POWs] assured me they were in good health. When I asked them if they were brainwashed, they all laughed. Without exception, they expressed shame at what they had done." She did, however, charge that North Vietnamese POWs were systematically tortured in American prison-of-war camps.
To add insult to injury, when American POWs finally began to return home (some of them having been held captive for up to nine years) and describe the tortures they had endured at the hands of the North Vietnamese, Jane Fonda quickly told the country that they should "not hail the POWs as heroes, because they are hypocrites and liars." Fonda said the idea that the POWs she had met in Vietnam had been tortured was "laughable," claiming: "These were not men who had been tortured. These were not men who had been starved. These were not men who had been brainwashed." The POWs who said they had been tortured were "exaggerating, probably for their own self-interest," she asserted. She told audiences that "Never in the history of the United States have POWs come home looking like football players. These football players are no more heroes than Custer was. They're military careerists and professional killers" who are "trying to make themselves look self-righteous, but they are war criminals according to law."
OK: I'm convinced. She was a creep. And I don't even know how much of what is said about her is made up. Some of those stories seem too wild to be true, or they start getting embellished as they move from person to person.
She was young, and idealistic and naive, and got caught up in the craziness. She should have stopped to consider the affects of what she was doing.
But how long does this sort of thing go on? Carrying a grudge for going on 40 years says more about the grudge-carrier than it does about her.
Carrying a grudge for going on 40 years says more about the grudge-carrier than it does about her.
I'd agree if Hanoi Jane showed an ounce of true remorse for what she did. I haven't seen that from her.
I'm fine with people that were against the war, and can understand it. Hell, my Grandfather who served in the Pacific during WWII was ready to send his four sons off to Canada over that war.
But what Jane did was different.
I guess it doesn't matter. She's really a non issue these days.
Grandpa Dan Zachary 3/18/04 8:40pm
I sure wouldn't.
Kerry is spoon feeding the liberals and they're slurping it up. Didn't he vote against the stealth fighter and bomber? The F-18 and other weapons that serve so well today?
Torpedo-8 3/18/04 10:01pm
Didn't he vote against the stealth fighter and bomber? The F-18 and other weapons that serve so well today?
I don't know. I'd have to research that.
But I do know that he voted against funding for the current Iraqi war, yet is now saying Bush sent the troops in without enough body armor and such. The hypocrit voted against the funding for such things IMHO.
There were more than just a FEW reasons why Kerry voted for or against the Bills in question, and they know that before they run their ads. Yes and I am sure he'll tell you that those were his reasons even ones that may contradict each other.
And John McCain agrees. May be he took to many beatings while he ws a POW.
you really hate veterans, don't you bodine?
you really hate veterans, don't you bodine?
No. How could you get that from this:
May be he took to many beatings while he ws a POW
Do you get the point that McCain's years as a POW may have effected his mind?
I've never thought that. It may have affected his thinking, however.
no more so than Bush's years as an alcoholic may have effected his.
Stories I've read say that Bush wasn't that big a drinker. No one ever saw him drunk on the job.
He was a weekend, country club drinker.
how about the tons of dope that you have consumed, crabs? from all appearances it has taken a massive toll on you.
Come on jethro. 30 years of smoking dope never hurt anyone........
I'm not running for president, now am I?
but don't forget...you guys are having a "war" on drugs and are losing to a bunch of people on drugs
"Quit talking to me crabgrass" - Torpedo-8
how about we get back to your un-patriotic assumption that McCain, an honorable veteren and man who has somehow managed to serve his country as a soldier and POW and for the last 22 years as a Congressman and Senator, his somehow brain-damaged?
There's nothing wrong with McCain's mental health and to even suggest otherwise is an ugly lie, and to suggest it's because he represented his country in one of the most honorable ways possible is reprehensible.
Anyone that wants to be a US Senator is somewhat brain damaged if you ask me.
No one is questioning his patriotism. However, ones' mental state should be a factor when it comes to holding public office.
He got blowed up real good
well...you got the "I don't know" part right....and that's about it.
I do know there is something wrong with you, crabs!
I'm talking to you, aren't I?
I'm talking to you, aren't I?
What does that mean? Lots of people that have something wrong with them talk to me.
it means that there is nothing short of a bum knee and diabetes that is wrong with me
you are fooling yourself, crabs.
you are just a fool, and are fooling no one
Stories I've read say that Bush wasn't that big a drinker.
Thank you Rick for being honest. Maybe you aren't as much of an extremist as I thought.
Yes, as they already ARE. Thousands of them, in fact.
Than why do we need to add to the burocracy
His wife had to start leaving AA booklets around the house for him.
Let's face it. McCain is a Democrat in Republican clothing.
He got blowed up real good
Uhm, when I clicked the link, I got a nasty picture.
I got this in an e-mail, Is it for real or some kind of stupid scam??
HONORING A TRAITOR
This is for all the kids born in the 70's that do not remember this, and
didn't have to bear the burden, that our fathers, mothers, and older
brothers and sisters had to bear.
Jane Fonda is being honored as one of the "100 Women of the Century."
Unfortunately, many have forgotten and still countless others have never
known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the idea of our country but specific
men who served and sacrificed during Vietnam.
The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot. The pilot's name is Jerry
Driscoll, a River Rat. In 1968, the former Commandant of the USAF Survival
School was a POW in Ho Lo Prison-the "Hanoi Hilton." Dragged from a stinking
cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJ's, he was ordered
to describe for a visiting American "Peace Activist" the "lenient and humane
treatment" he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda, was clubbed, and dragged
away.
During the subsequent beating, he fell forward upon the camp Commandant's
feet, which sent that officer berserk. In '78, the AF Col. still suffered
from double vision (which permanently ended his flying days) from the
Vietnamese Col.'s frenzied application of a wooden baton. From 1963-65, Col.
Larry Carrigan was in the 47FW/DO (F-4E's). He spent 6 years in the
"Hilton"- the first three of which he was "missing in action". His wife
lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the cleaned,
fed, clothed routine in preparation for a "peace delegation" visit.
They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world that
they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his SSN
on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a
cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little
encouraging snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and "Are
you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?"
Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of paper.
She took them all without missing a beat.
At the end of the line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked
disbelief of the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge and handed him
the little pile of papers. Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col.
Carrigan was almost number four but he survived, which is the only reason we
know about her actions that day.
I was a civilian economic development advisor in Vietnam, and was captured
by the North Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in 1968, and held for
over 5 years. I spent 27 months in solitary confinement, one year in a cage
in Cambodia, and one year in a "black box" in Hanoi. My North Vietnamese
captors deliberately poisoned and murdered a female missionary, a nurse in a
leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South Vietnam, whom I buried in the jungle near
the Cambodian border.
At one time, I was weighing approximately 90 lbs. (My normal weight is 170
lbs.) We were Jane Fonda's "war criminals."
When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist political
officer if I would be willing to meet with Jane Fonda. I said yes, for I
would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs received different
from the treatment purported by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane
Fonda, as "humane and lenient." Because of this,
I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with
a large amount of steel placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane
till my arms dipped.
I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda for a couple of hours after I
was released. I asked her if she would be willing to debate me on TV. She
did not answer me.
This does not exemplify someone who should be honored as part of "100 Years
of Great Women." Lest we forget..."100 years of great women" should never
include a traitor whose hands are covered with the blood of so many
patriots. There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but
Hanoi Jane's participation in blatant treason, is one of them.
what the US did in Viet Nam was wrong.
To stand up and say so while it is happening is patriotic.
That reads like something really concocted.
Whoever wrote that needs a hobby.
To stand up and say so while it is happening is patriotic.
There's a difference between standing up, and what Hanoi Jane did.
http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp
she stood up and called bullshit on something that was indeed bullshit
From THX's link:
what the US did in Viet Nam was wrong.
Do you think that they are better off now?
we will never know
the ones we killed certainly aren't
the ones we killed certainly aren't
Neither are the ones who died during WWII, but I still believe that Germany is a better country without Hitler in charge.
To rephrase the question, do you think that those living there now are better off with their current form of government?
like I said, we will never know
the damage we did to that place and it's people makes that a moot question
He got blowed up real good
Uhm, when I clicked the link, I got a nasty picture.
Sorry about that. They must not want any 3rd party links.
Try a cut and paste of this link
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/helicopterkills.mpg
she stood up and called bullshit on something that was indeed bullshit
Like I said, there's a difference between "standing up" and what she did.
She's a tool.
The most prominent example of a clash between private citizen protest and governmental military policy in recent history occurred in July 1972, when actress Jane Fonda arrived in Hanoi, North Vietnam, and began a two-week tour of the country conducted by uniformed military hosts. Aside from visiting villages, hospitals, schools, and factories, Fonda also posed for pictures in which she was shown applauding North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gunners, was photographed peering into the sights of an NVA anti-aircraft artillery launcher, and made ten propagandistic Tokyo Rose-like radio broadcasts in which she denounced American political and military leaders as "war criminals." She also spoke with eight American POWs at a carefully arranged "press conference," POWS who had been tortured by their North Vietnamese captors to force them to meet with Fonda, deny they had been tortured, and decry the American war effort. Fonda apparently didn't notice (or care) that the POWs were delivering their lines under duress or find it unusual the she was not allowed to visit the prisoner-of-war camp (commonly known as the "Hanoi Hilton") itself. She merely went home and told the world that "[the POWs] assured me they were in good health. When I asked them if they were brainwashed, they all laughed. Without exception, they expressed shame at what they had done." She did, however, charge that North Vietnamese POWs were systematically tortured in American prison-of-war camps.
To add insult to injury, when American POWs finally began to return home (some of them having been held captive for up to nine years) and describe the tortures they had endured at the hands of the North Vietnamese, Jane Fonda quickly told the country that they should "not hail the POWs as heroes, because they are hypocrites and liars." Fonda said the idea that the POWs she had met in Vietnam had been tortured was "laughable," claiming: "These were not men who had been tortured. These were not men who had been starved. These were not men who had been brainwashed." The POWs who said they had been tortured were "exaggerating, probably for their own self-interest," she asserted. She told audiences that "Never in the history of the United States have POWs come home looking like football players. These football players are no more heroes than Custer was. They're military careerists and professional killers" who are "trying to make themselves look self-righteous, but they are war criminals according to law."
OK: I'm convinced. She was a creep. And I don't even know how much of what is said about her is made up. Some of those stories seem too wild to be true, or they start getting embellished as they move from person to person.
She was young, and idealistic and naive, and got caught up in the craziness. She should have stopped to consider the affects of what she was doing.
But how long does this sort of thing go on? Carrying a grudge for going on 40 years says more about the grudge-carrier than it does about her.
However, ones' mental state should be a factor when it comes to holding public office.
shouldn't the voters decide that?
However, ones' mental state should be a factor when it comes to holding public office.
shouldn't the voters decide that?
Who else would deetermine a candidate's mental state? Oh by the way I am a voter.
I guess Citizen Freud has been heard from
rolls eyes
You don't have to be a psychiatrist or psychologist to judge someone's mental state.
It helps if you want to accurately do it, though.
I see then the entire issue shouldn't be considered because only an "expert" could possibly know. What nonsense.
Carrying a grudge for going on 40 years says more about the grudge-carrier than it does about her.
I'd agree if Hanoi Jane showed an ounce of true remorse for what she did. I haven't seen that from her.
I'm fine with people that were against the war, and can understand it. Hell, my Grandfather who served in the Pacific during WWII was ready to send his four sons off to Canada over that war.
But what Jane did was different.
I guess it doesn't matter. She's really a non issue these days.