In and out so if it takes a bit to respond please understand.
The laws and basis was laid in Judeo Christian values. They also recognized however that those values had to end when the state ie: the feds established an "official" religion. They mutually excluded themseleves and all other religions from being the only church and or faith allowed. The laws however were based on Judeo Christian values because that's mainly who we were at the time. One needs to look at context. One of the main reasons for the settlers who started this nation left England was due to religious persecution ie: the church of England. That's exactly what they wanted to avoid and did.
People confuse the issue of separation of church and state. It is there only to protect people from having an official religion ie; Church of England and to prevent persecution of other religious faiths that's it, nothing more, nothing less.
For instance let's say instead the settlers were all mainly druids. They would have started a country based on druid laws and values and yet not only allowed other beliefs to flourish they would have at the same time mutually excluded themselves as well as being the "official" relgion or church of a nation. Hence no law establishing any state religion etc. etc. It was the basis of their value system that started it and those same values that allowed others to worship how they chose.
Like it or not that's the foundation of our country, it wasn't based on Druid law, Buddist law, Muslim law etc. The beauty of the founders however is that they allowed all these other faiths and beliefs to be equally included in the country hence no religious wars like so many nations over so many years.
If you live in an old place, crab, check you doors. Are they beveled and separated in sections? If they are, you probably have cross on your doors. Do you have anyplace where where windows are separated into four panes. In the middle, it's a cross.
The roads you drive on, the architecture, of the city you live in. The date you put at the top of the checks you write. The paintings and sculpture in your museums. The key and meter of the music you hear.
Your whole thought pattern is Western. You know what that means? -- You're Roman.
The United States of America is the only country in history to have defined itself as Judeo-Christian. - bodine
"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine."  --  George Washington  Â
“The government of the United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian religion.” — (First) Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 (8 US at L 154)
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to J. Adams, April 11,1823
"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it."
". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Cooper on February 10, 1814
you know, I tend to go with Thom and George instead of bodine when defining America
and yet they claim to make no law respecting an establishment of religion.
That would be only Congressthat can make no law. But Congress also does not have the power to prohibit the free exercise thereof.However, apparently the Supreme Court has such power.
The United States of America is the only country in history to have defined itself as Judeo-Christian. - bodine
Not me dip. It was Dennis Prager.
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to J. Adams, April 11,1823
From Jethro's Jefferson Bible link, an excerpt of a letter to William Short:
[W]hile this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true and high light, as no impostor Himself, but a great Reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with Him in all His doctrines.I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require counterpoise of good works to redeem it, etc., etc. Â Â
It is the innocence of His character, the purity and sublimity of His moral precepts, the eloquence of His inculcations, the beauty of the apologues in which He conveys them, that I so much admire; sometimes, indeed, needing indulgence to eastern hyperbolism. My eulogies, too, may be founded on a postulate which all may not be ready to grant.
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to Him by His biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same Being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore to Him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of His disciples.
Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus. These palpable interpolations and falsifications of His doctrines, led me to try to sift them apart. I found the work obvious and easy, and that His past composed the most beautiful morsel of morality which has been given to us by man. The syllabus is therefore of His doctrines, not all of mine. I read them as I do those of other ancient and modern moralists, with a mixture of approbation and dissent...
I find this debate on whether people like Jefferson were Christians of a certain level totally irrelevant.
Christian society advance, flouished and yes, dominates American culture because hardships were endured, blood was spilled and hard choices were made were made by regular people. You can deny it if you want, but you might as well be trying to stop the wind. It's in the country's bones.
Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus. These palpable interpolations and falsifications of His doctrines, led me to try to sift them apart. I found the work obvious and easy, and that His past composed the most beautiful morsel of morality which has been given to us by man. The syllabus is therefore of His doctrines, not all of mine. I read them as I do those of other ancient and modern moralists, with a mixture of approbation and dissent...
Sounds like a man full of himself. Pride is a sin you know. But no matter, the "beautiful morsel of morality" given by Christ, even in jefferson's view, is the basis of this country.
I understand that Christians are proud that they have forced and spread their stink so well here, but so what?
So you denigrate anyone who's Christian by an insult like that and wonder why nobody takes you seriously ? Hmmmm, you're an asshole, now engage me in conversation dammnit! Keep running Crabs.
The first two Presidents of the United States were patrons of religion--George Washington was an Episcopal vestryman, and John Adams described himself as "a church going animal." Both offered strong rhetorical support for religion. In his Farewell Address of September 1796, Washington called religion, as the source of morality, "a necessary spring of popular government," while Adams claimed that statesmen "may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand." Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, the third and fourth Presidents, are generally considered less hospitable to religion than their predecessors, but evidence presented in this section shows that, while in office, both offered religion powerful symbolic support.
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God,' This is the one things we must not say.
So to C.S. Lewis crabs and Thomas Jefferson would be fools?
Look, the point is, why care about anything? It isn't like you believe we have souls to worry about. Why does it matter that you are a white male on this planet? Why does any of it have any effect on you at all? I just do not understand that given what you believe that you should care about anything at all including yourself.
It isn't like you believe we have souls to worry about.
the only reason you worryabout your soul is because Christianity has blackmailed you into believing that if you don't, you will be tortured after you die.
"beileve in me or I will see to it that your soul will be tortured" is the nut of Christain belief.
"but are you proud of the way Christians have spread and colonized their beliefs?"
I don't think that can be answered with yes or no.
But, in the aggregate, I'd say accomplishment of Western civilization has been remarkable. The thought, the ideas, advancement. It's pretty much shaped the world.
The United States of America is the only country in history to have defined itself as Judeo-Christian.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20040330.shtml
and yet they claim to make no law respecting an establishment of religion.
weird, huh.
Hey Crabs,
In and out so if it takes a bit to respond please understand.
The laws and basis was laid in Judeo Christian values. They also recognized however that those values had to end when the state ie: the feds established an "official" religion. They mutually excluded themseleves and all other religions from being the only church and or faith allowed. The laws however were based on Judeo Christian values because that's mainly who we were at the time. One needs to look at context. One of the main reasons for the settlers who started this nation left England was due to religious persecution ie: the church of England. That's exactly what they wanted to avoid and did.
People confuse the issue of separation of church and state. It is there only to protect people from having an official religion ie; Church of England and to prevent persecution of other religious faiths that's it, nothing more, nothing less.
For instance let's say instead the settlers were all mainly druids. They would have started a country based on druid laws and values and yet not only allowed other beliefs to flourish they would have at the same time mutually excluded themselves as well as being the "official" relgion or church of a nation. Hence no law establishing any state religion etc. etc. It was the basis of their value system that started it and those same values that allowed others to worship how they chose.
Like it or not that's the foundation of our country, it wasn't based on Druid law, Buddist law, Muslim law etc. The beauty of the founders however is that they allowed all these other faiths and beliefs to be equally included in the country hence no religious wars like so many nations over so many years.
well...then it's not a Judeo-Christian country.
it was based on commonlaw, not Religious law.
If you live in an old place, crab, check you doors. Are they beveled and separated in sections? If they are, you probably have cross on your doors. Do you have anyplace where where windows are separated into four panes. In the middle, it's a cross.
The roads you drive on, the architecture, of the city you live in. The date you put at the top of the checks you write. The paintings and sculpture in your museums. The key and meter of the music you hear.
Your whole thought pattern is Western. You know what that means? -- You're Roman.
Deal with it.
is largely based on African music
and if you wanna go back to our "roots", than we might as well say we are a Zeus on Mt. Olympus country.
I miss those Mercury head dimes too.
and if you want to talk about our cities, our capital is French.
Zorba for President and hemp shirts for everyone ! Viva le' pothead.
Missed you Crabs ;)
glad to hear your family is hangin' tough, fly
let us know if medical marijuana is being considered, okay? I hear it's pretty good for the side effects of chemo.
“The government of the United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian religion.” — (First) Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 (8 US at L 154)
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to J. Adams, April 11,1823
"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it."
". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Cooper on February 10, 1814
you know, I tend to go with Thom and George instead of bodine when defining America
That Jefferson quote to Adams is pretty tough to interpret without context.
Might he be lamenting what he sees as an eventuality?
and yet they claim to make no law respecting an establishment of religion.
That would be only
Congress that can make no law. But Congress also does not have the power to
prohibit the free exercise thereof. However, apparently the Supreme Court has such power.
The United States of America is the only country in history to have defined itself as Judeo-Christian. - bodine
Not me dip. It was Dennis Prager.
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to J. Adams, April 11,1823
It is funny that if Tom rejected Christianity to such an extent that he spent a lot of time studying Jesus: http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/
you know, I tend to go with Thom and George instead of bodine when defining America
You tend to excerpt only those things that support your position just like good little godless liberals do.
From Jethro's Jefferson Bible link, an excerpt of a letter to William Short:
So, who's listening to "The 'O'Franken Factor"?
I can't get AM stations in at work.
I find this debate on whether people like Jefferson were Christians of a certain level totally irrelevant.
Christian society advance, flouished and yes, dominates American culture because hardships were endured, blood was spilled and hard choices were made were made by regular people. You can deny it if you want, but you might as well be trying to stop the wind. It's in the country's bones.
Nicely put, Rick.
it is not to be understood that I am with Him in all His doctrines.
Irrelevnt.
Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus. These palpable interpolations and falsifications of His doctrines, led me to try to sift them apart. I found the work obvious and easy, and that His past composed the most beautiful morsel of morality which has been given to us by man. The syllabus is therefore of His doctrines, not all of mine. I read them as I do those of other ancient and modern moralists, with a mixture of approbation and dissent...
Sounds like a man full of himself. Pride is a sin you know. But no matter, the "beautiful morsel of morality" given by Christ, even in jefferson's view, is the basis of this country.
Streaming audio of Liberal America's fledgling little attempt at balance in AM Talk Radio
Balance: That's all we ask.....
Balance that's all we ask.
LOL, Let's trade, you can have talk radio if we can have most of the editorial boards, the alphabet channels, the NYT and and Hollywood.
Deal ?
Then we need two or three more Rush Limbaugh's to achieve balance.
Not according to Jefferson.
"Then we need two or three more Rush Limbaugh's to achieve balance. "
That would even get the athiests and agnostics praying to God for deliverance.
Not according to Jefferson.
I disagree and anybody with a background in U.S. history would.
so is a lot of things...atheism is in this country's bones. Colonialism is in this country's bones. Plurality is in this country's bones.
I understand that Christians are proud that they have forced and spread their stink so well here, but so what?
are you proud of your Christian country, bodine? you sure sound like you are.
So you denigrate anyone who's Christian by an insult like that and wonder why nobody takes you seriously ? Hmmmm, you're an asshole, now engage me in conversation dammnit! Keep running Crabs.
The first two Presidents of the United States were patrons of religion--George Washington was an Episcopal vestryman, and John Adams described himself as "a church going animal." Both offered strong rhetorical support for religion. In his Farewell Address of September 1796, Washington called religion, as the source of morality, "a necessary spring of popular government," while Adams claimed that statesmen "may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand." Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, the third and fourth Presidents, are generally considered less hospitable to religion than their predecessors, but evidence presented in this section shows that, while in office, both offered religion powerful symbolic support.
http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06.html
Home: http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/religion.html
"I understand that Christians are proud that they have forced and spread their stink so well here, but so what?"
Such hostility weakens any point you might be trying to make.
it's a matter of history
you are proud of the way Christians have spread and colonized their beliefs and you think I'm the asshole?
So what is it exactly about Christianity that you detest, crabs. Or if there is anything what actions have Christians taken that you condemn them all.
I like Jesus' message...which to me was to reject all the hate and war his father encouraged in the first book and to love each other unconditionally.
I like the ideas Jesus had, I just don't care for his fan club.
The real Christians I have met, who actually seem to love everyone, are among my best of friends. They forgive my failings, such as they are.
Which is essentially Jefferson's position, as cited above.
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God,' This is the one things we must not say.
So to C.S. Lewis crabs and Thomas Jefferson would be fools?
you are proud of the way Christians have spread and colonized their beliefs and you think I'm the asshole?
I think you're comments today were just as asinine and hateful as those "Christians" you despise so much.
but are you proud of the way Christians have spread and colonized their beliefs?
I mean, I'm not particularly "proud" to be a white male on this planet, and why should I be?
But I thought that you were just time, energy and matter, so why should it bother you at all?
who said it bothered me?
It's apparent that you do.
I do?
do what?
you think an infinite amount of time, matter and energy is "just"
what more do you think there is?
do what?
Short term memory shot?
Look, the point is, why care about anything? It isn't like you believe we have souls to worry about. Why does it matter that you are a white male on this planet? Why does any of it have any effect on you at all? I just do not understand that given what you believe that you should care about anything at all including yourself.
bothered me? that would be "does", not "do"
syntax shot?
EVERYTHING exists.
EVERYTHING matters.
EVERYTHING effects everyone.
you obviously do not understand what I believe.
the only reason you worryabout your soul is because Christianity has blackmailed you into believing that if you don't, you will be tortured after you die.
"beileve in me or I will see to it that your soul will be tortured" is the nut of Christain belief.
no wonder you worry about your soul so much
free will OR ELSE!
"but are you proud of the way Christians have spread and colonized their beliefs?"
I don't think that can be answered with yes or no.
But, in the aggregate, I'd say accomplishment of Western civilization has been remarkable. The thought, the ideas, advancement. It's pretty much shaped the world.