Share your thoughts here on the current state of the military
Luv2Fly
Funny thing... That's about the third time (in as many years), that you have said you would admonish someone for shit-hammering Veterans(Pet Project?), and I have YET to witness such an event.
Really ? Wow. Oh, go check the Vets Issue thread. I just did, of course you were trying to put words in my mouth but that's o.k. You didn't say a word about Rooney except to go on some rant about Bush. So does that mean your unfriendly towards vets? Of course not, I wouldn't have the temerity to impy it either.
Oh and, just for clarity's sake, YOU were the one that yanked MY chain, First...? My comments are in BOLD:
Really ? Why because I diagreed with you? What nerve, to actually disagree with you, Gasp. Mom, he started it. Bill's looking at me, am not, am too!
THAT was how this got started, not because I said the "FUCK" word.
It's not the word that bothers me at all Bill, I use it once and a while too, alot less with the kids around now. It's just not usually followed by the word off to someone I merely disagree with. Especially to someone who's gone to bat for me.
My heart isn't hardened Bill. I simply have a problem with being told to fuck off and eat shit I'm funny that way. I have a problem with someone implying I don't do enough when they don't know the first thing about me, all the while touting how much they do. I have a problem with someone resorting to gradeschool tactics because they can't simply disagree.
You say I started it. What because I had the audacity to disagree with you? I said you don't have the will to continue in Iraq. Well you want us to pull out of there so what would you call it? If someone wants to stop doing something it means they've lost the will. Ie: will power. Lost the will to continue. Nothing wrong with it I just vehemently disagree with leaving. Will is simply defined as the matter in which you are either determined or to do something or not do something ie: against my will. If you took it as an insult or "starting the whole thing" Then there's nothing I can say about it, I simply disagreed with leaving Iraq at this time and you made it personal by going off.
I stayed out of these rooms for the better part of three or four months, and in that much time, YOUR heart has hardened more than I ever would have believed. But here...you get the last word.
LUV'S WORD "___________".
It's not about having the last word Bill. It's about exchanging ideas. It's not about even winning an argument it's about exchanging ideas and learning from each other and sometimes being big enough to agree to disagree and move on to the next topic. I've learned from everyone in here and try to look at their perspective and it influences the way I see things. Will I always agree? Of course not. People are strong in ther beleifs which is good. Way too many people get personal and then start name calling. From there is deteriorates into a playground and in the end 2 people are pissed off at someone they never met and they don't even remember what it was they were debating in the first place.
I've tried to stay out of this, but I gotta say: It's none of Bill Folds damn business what anyone does for volunteering or charity or whatever, for vets or otherwise.
The thing to do now, is to sit down with all these "Mullas", ask them for a cease-fire until we can legitimately hand-over the reigns of power in June, and then Get The Hell Out,
"I think the vast majority of the American people understand that it's important to not just cut and run," Kerry said. "I don't believe in a cut-and-run philosophy." link
The MOOD is changing gang... The question isn't how we can WIN in Iraq anymore... The question is now, "How Can We Get OUT".
O.K Bill, were you saying we should stay ? Perhaps your saying "The question isn't how we can WIN in Iraq anymore... The question is now, "How Can We Get OUT". Really meant let's stay?
I STILL believe that this is a war we DID NOT NEED TO FIGHT.
Then you are just wrong. We were going to have to make this fight or another just like it sometime. It is better to fight it in Iraq or anyplace else other than here.
How was the U.S. able to stage this brilliant military campaign with such an army spread so thin?
It wasn't a matter of not winning, it would have been easier with rotations on the troops if we had more.
In addition to inheriting all the negatives that are attributed to Clinton, Bush also inherited his military.
He did, even prior to 9-11 He submitted the largest funding increase in 20 years. One of the big losses however was the high skill modes that take years of training not to mention the untangible of losing C.O's with co,bat experience and the NCO ranks were depleted. Those are harder to get back. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Yes we should have cut some in the 90's. We simply went too far and didn't take good enough care of the ones that were still there to give them an incentive to stay. I think even today for instance we are to dependant on technology in some cases. Bush certainly isn't without fault and could absolutely be doing some things better.
I see that fold has better info than Army Generals. A piece on ABC News this morning was an interview with an Army General who stated that 1 Army Division is in Iraq and there are 7 more Divisions here in the States that are NOT committed.
If we ignored EVERYONE who bitched and complained, especially about politics and our self-governing system, then I guess we could call this... CHINA, eh?
No. If we imprsioned them and beat them then you might call it China.
So ignoring someone or disagreeing with them is akin to China ?
Yikes, If someone wants to burn a flag I find it sad and offensive. But I would also never support a law that outlaws it either.
Rick, Ridicule and escalating is what starts it the loss of freedom of speech? Well that's been happening in this country for 200 years and we haven't lost it.
If we ignored EVERYONE who bitched and complained, especially about politics and our self-governing system, then I guess we could call this... CHINA, eh?
What I find amazing is how some will take the side of anyone who hates President Bush, even if they know what is being said is wrong. Some will even stick up for people like Andy Rooney when he says that the soldiers in Iraq are not heroes when it totally contradicts what they claim to stand for. These people don't even have the respect for the position held (even if they disagree with him) to pronounce the president's name properly.
You see Fold, it is not the disagreement, but the constant disagreement and petty acts that are so extremely partisan and sickening that drives people away from what some are trying to accomplish. It's the "he should do this" and when he does, "he should not have done that" that makes for a bitter and fighting country.
It really needs to stop before any real dialog can begin.
So because Rooney was a reporter from Stars and Stripes in WW2 that gives him the right to belittle and insult the troops risking their lives right now ? C'mon Bill, how can you defend that? Even if he went on to say that at the end there were many people offended by it.
The only people making a big deal out of his statements, are you.
Really ? CBS got alot of calls on it. i'm the only one eh?
And by the way? Read his war record. He did a LOT more than just report for Stars and Stripes. But that won't matter I guess, so screw it. There's really no point.
You're right Bill. Because of what he did will from here forward make him immune from all critiscim.
Take offense. Obviously, you need to.
Sure. Obviously you need to defend it, interesting.
It wasn't the hero's line Bill. It was him saying that soldiers needed medals to be "tricked" into fighting. It was his implication that they are only there because they couldn't get a job elsewhere. If you don't think that's offensive there's nothing else to say.
I realize people serve for different reasons. What he said was generalizing and condescending to the men and women admirably doing a tough job. He implied alot of things that were offensive IMO. I can honestly say I've never met anyone who joined hoping to get medals or the CMH. Sure they're meaningful and everyone likes recognitiom. But I don't know of anyone that joined for medals.
Here's a guy who didn't join for the money or needed to be "tricked" into fighting for medals as Rooney implies. He walked away from a pro football carrer where he had all the fame, adulation and money anyone could want. He had his dream job, to play in the NFL, a dream few ever acheive. On a crisp morning in September he watched the towers fall and something in him changed and he felt something. He walked away from it all and enlisted in the Army with his brother who is also an athelete and has a promising baseball carreer. His name is Pat Tillman and he died on Thursday in Afghanistan, that my friends is a hero. I wonder if Mr.Rooney would tell him he was tricked into fighting for a medal. Tell his brother and parents that.
Fold, take another look at what Rooney is saying. The original story is gone, but it is copied here.
For starters, the title is "Our Soldiers in Iraq Aren't Heroes". Pretty much sums up what he thinks of those folks doesn't it?
His 5 questions have been asked in various ways over the years without the answers that Rooney was hoping for.
His theory that they have to be "tricked" into even being soldiers is amazingly off the mark. You say that you work with many veterans, ask them if they were tricked into being soldiers for our country and let us know how many were.
He then contradicts this theory with another one that falsely claims that there were millions of jobs lost and it was all about the money. I have debunked the lost jobs theory here many times.
Another one is that they never thought they would have to fight. What did these soldiers think joining the army was all about? Sure there are rewards such as help with schooling and such, but there is always the possibility of having to do something to earn that.
My favorite is his statement that the suicides somehow prove something. The truth is that the suicide rate of 17.3 per 100,000 in Iraq is better than the U.S. civilian rate for the 18-34 age group (the age range of most soldiers) of 21.5 per 100,000. Using Rooney's theory, we can surmise that these young people are happier if they are fighting in Iraq than if they are at home listening to him.
Nobody likes war, but the fact of the matter is that sometimes it is necessary. I am not sorry for the fact that I look up to those that are there and am proud that my son calls them heroes as well. I feel that is the least that I can do for them and the others who have served our country in war or peace.
So did the Japanese and the Nazis during WWII. You are confusing the Iraqi's with the leadership of Saddam. Saddam is no longer in charge there and this will help to create a nation that no longer chooses to kill it's own people in various sadistic ways.
"NEW YORK (AP) U.S. military police stacked naked Iraqi prisoners in a human pyramid, and attached wires to one detainee to convince him he might be electrocuted, according to photographs obtained by CBS News which led to criminal charges against six American soldiers."
You do know that it was other American soldiers who took those pictures and turned them over to authorities, don't you? The ones committing the crimes will be dealt with appropriately and that is what determines us from the Saddams of the world.
Really ? Wow. Oh, go check the Vets Issue thread. I just did, of course you were trying to put words in my mouth but that's o.k. You didn't say a word about Rooney except to go on some rant about Bush. So does that mean your unfriendly towards vets? Of course not, I wouldn't have the temerity to impy it either.
Really ? Why because I diagreed with you? What nerve, to actually disagree with you, Gasp. Mom, he started it. Bill's looking at me, am not, am too!
It's not the word that bothers me at all Bill, I use it once and a while too, alot less with the kids around now. It's just not usually followed by the word off to someone I merely disagree with. Especially to someone who's gone to bat for me.
My heart isn't hardened Bill. I simply have a problem with being told to fuck off and eat shit I'm funny that way. I have a problem with someone implying I don't do enough when they don't know the first thing about me, all the while touting how much they do. I have a problem with someone resorting to gradeschool tactics because they can't simply disagree.
You say I started it. What because I had the audacity to disagree with you? I said you don't have the will to continue in Iraq. Well you want us to pull out of there so what would you call it? If someone wants to stop doing something it means they've lost the will. Ie: will power. Lost the will to continue. Nothing wrong with it I just vehemently disagree with leaving. Will is simply defined as the matter in which you are either determined or to do something or not do something ie: against my will. If you took it as an insult or "starting the whole thing" Then there's nothing I can say about it, I simply disagreed with leaving Iraq at this time and you made it personal by going off.
It's not about having the last word Bill. It's about exchanging ideas. It's not about even winning an argument it's about exchanging ideas and learning from each other and sometimes being big enough to agree to disagree and move on to the next topic. I've learned from everyone in here and try to look at their perspective and it influences the way I see things. Will I always agree? Of course not. People are strong in ther beleifs which is good. Way too many people get personal and then start name calling. From there is deteriorates into a playground and in the end 2 people are pissed off at someone they never met and they don't even remember what it was they were debating in the first place.
I've tried to stay out of this, but I gotta say: It's none of Bill Folds damn business what anyone does for volunteering or charity or whatever, for vets or otherwise.
The thing to do now, is to sit down with all these "Mullas", ask them for a cease-fire until we can legitimately hand-over the reigns of power in June, and then Get The Hell Out,
Guess you won't be voting for Kerry.
and he wonders why nobody takes him seriously anymore.
bitter and unhinged.
I believe your reply to me was. "Oh poor you."
'Bill - Fold' 4/10/04 4:49am
O.K Bill, were you saying we should stay ? Perhaps your saying "The question isn't how we can WIN in Iraq anymore... The question is now, "How Can We Get OUT". Really meant let's stay?
"I wish we hadn't cut 5 divisions, numerous programs and numerous equipment procurements during the 90's."
How was the U.S. able to stage this brilliant military campaign with such an army spread so thin?
In addition to inheriting all the negatives that are attributed to Clinton, Bush also inherited his military.
I STILL believe that this is a war we DID NOT NEED TO FIGHT.
Then you are just wrong. We were going to have to make this fight or another just like it sometime. It is better to fight it in Iraq or anyplace else other than here.
It wasn't a matter of not winning, it would have been easier with rotations on the troops if we had more.
He did, even prior to 9-11 He submitted the largest funding increase in 20 years. One of the big losses however was the high skill modes that take years of training not to mention the untangible of losing C.O's with co,bat experience and the NCO ranks were depleted. Those are harder to get back. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Yes we should have cut some in the 90's. We simply went too far and didn't take good enough care of the ones that were still there to give them an incentive to stay. I think even today for instance we are to dependant on technology in some cases. Bush certainly isn't without fault and could absolutely be doing some things better.
How was the U.S. able to stage this brilliant military campaign with such an army spread so thin?
I wonder what would have happened if the enemey was China.
BTW Rick, I know poverty
Do you?
I see that fold has better info than Army Generals. A piece on ABC News this morning was an interview with an Army General who stated that 1 Army Division is in Iraq and there are 7 more Divisions here in the States that are NOT committed.
Nobody left, fold?
Speaking of lying sacks. I just wanted to expose fold for what he truely is.
Torp, the fact of the matter is, no matter what Dubya does "some" will bitch and complain about it.
I know it's hard, but they should be ignored.
I like to make his blood pressure rocket.
If we ignored EVERYONE who bitched and complained, especially about politics and our self-governing system, then I guess we could call this... CHINA, eh?
No. If we imprsioned them and beat them then you might call it China.
Don't forget executions, Jethro.
It starts with ridicule and escalates.
It starts with ridicule and escalates.
Like making fun of medallion hunters and geocachers?
"Like making fun of medallion hunters and geocachers?"
Is that political speech, now?
You must have an easy life if that gets under your skin.
Does it matter?
Nice justification though.
It's not political, so it's ok.
BTW: I replied even before reading your most recent slam.
Rick "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at Bizarre Hatred of Random Celebrities and/or tapa" 4/20/04 10:39am
It starts with ridicule and escalates.
So people should accept any idiotic political statements without rebuttal?
Maybe "engagement" would be a better term than rebuttal.
Maybe "engagement" would be a better term than rebuttal.
I suppose you could but why?
So ignoring someone or disagreeing with them is akin to China ?
Yikes, If someone wants to burn a flag I find it sad and offensive. But I would also never support a law that outlaws it either.
Rick, Ridicule and escalating is what starts it the loss of freedom of speech? Well that's been happening in this country for 200 years and we haven't lost it.
If we ignored EVERYONE who bitched and complained, especially about politics and our self-governing system, then I guess we could call this... CHINA, eh?
What I find amazing is how some will take the side of anyone who hates President Bush, even if they know what is being said is wrong. Some will even stick up for people like Andy Rooney when he says that the soldiers in Iraq are not heroes when it totally contradicts what they claim to stand for. These people don't even have the respect for the position held (even if they disagree with him) to pronounce the president's name properly.
You see Fold, it is not the disagreement, but the constant disagreement and petty acts that are so extremely partisan and sickening that drives people away from what some are trying to accomplish. It's the "he should do this" and when he does, "he should not have done that" that makes for a bitter and fighting country.
It really needs to stop before any real dialog can begin.
are the soldiers who have commited suicide "heroes"?
It's disingenuous of the rest of us to encourage them to fight this war by idolizing them.
Yes we should tell them to put their weapons down and come home. Or better yet maybe they should turn them on their superiors.
So because Rooney was a reporter from Stars and Stripes in WW2 that gives him the right to belittle and insult the troops risking their lives right now ? C'mon Bill, how can you defend that? Even if he went on to say that at the end there were many people offended by it.
Really ? CBS got alot of calls on it. i'm the only one eh?
You're right Bill. Because of what he did will from here forward make him immune from all critiscim.
Sure. Obviously you need to defend it, interesting.
It wasn't the hero's line Bill. It was him saying that soldiers needed medals to be "tricked" into fighting. It was his implication that they are only there because they couldn't get a job elsewhere. If you don't think that's offensive there's nothing else to say.
I thought he was calling them stupid.
I realize people serve for different reasons. What he said was generalizing and condescending to the men and women admirably doing a tough job. He implied alot of things that were offensive IMO.
I can honestly say I've never met anyone who joined hoping to get medals or the CMH. Sure they're meaningful and everyone likes recognitiom. But I don't know of anyone that joined for medals.
Here's a guy who didn't join for the money or needed to be "tricked" into fighting for medals as Rooney implies. He walked away from a pro football carrer where he had all the fame, adulation and money anyone could want. He had his dream job, to play in the NFL, a dream few ever acheive. On a crisp morning in September he watched the towers fall and something in him changed and he felt something. He walked away from it all and enlisted in the Army with his brother who is also an athelete and has a promising baseball carreer. His name is Pat Tillman and he died on Thursday in Afghanistan, that my friends is a hero. I wonder if Mr.Rooney would tell him he was tricked into fighting for a medal. Tell his brother and parents that.
notes that this is an instrumental composition.
Fold, take another look at what Rooney is saying. The original story is gone, but it is copied here.
For starters, the title is "Our Soldiers in Iraq Aren't Heroes". Pretty much sums up what he thinks of those folks doesn't it?
His 5 questions have been asked in various ways over the years without the answers that Rooney was hoping for.
His theory that they have to be "tricked" into even being soldiers is amazingly off the mark. You say that you work with many veterans, ask them if they were tricked into being soldiers for our country and let us know how many were.
He then contradicts this theory with another one that falsely claims that there were millions of jobs lost and it was all about the money. I have debunked the lost jobs theory here many times.
Another one is that they never thought they would have to fight. What did these soldiers think joining the army was all about? Sure there are rewards such as help with schooling and such, but there is always the possibility of having to do something to earn that.
My favorite is his statement that the suicides somehow prove something. The truth is that the suicide rate of 17.3 per 100,000 in Iraq is better than the U.S. civilian rate for the 18-34 age group (the age range of most soldiers) of 21.5 per 100,000. Using Rooney's theory, we can surmise that these young people are happier if they are fighting in Iraq than if they are at home listening to him.
Nobody likes war, but the fact of the matter is that sometimes it is necessary. I am not sorry for the fact that I look up to those that are there and am proud that my son calls them heroes as well. I feel that is the least that I can do for them and the others who have served our country in war or peace.
They had the Luxury of time, on their side.
So did the Japanese and the Nazis during WWII. You are confusing the Iraqi's with the leadership of Saddam. Saddam is no longer in charge there and this will help to create a nation that no longer chooses to kill it's own people in various sadistic ways.
If true, we don't need heroes like this.
"NEW YORK (AP) U.S. military police stacked naked Iraqi prisoners in a human pyramid, and attached wires to one detainee to convince him he might be electrocuted, according to photographs obtained by CBS News which led to criminal charges against six American soldiers."
I saw that on the news last night. Those soldiers should get the book thrown at them.
we tell them to kill, but just don't hurt anyone?
The soldier's alleged actions have defenders out there.
I've heard comments that range from "look what they do to us" to "humiliation is a necessary tool" to "sweep it under the rug, fast."
we tell them to kill, but just don't hurt anyone?
::slams head on desk::
let's see...we can have snipers shoot them and and not kill them so they scream for awhile before dying...but don't threaten them with wires?
crabs: let's see...we can have snipers shoot them and and not kill them so they scream for awhile before dying...but don't threaten them with wires?
The dumb guy strikes again!
You do know that it was other American soldiers who took those pictures and turned them over to authorities, don't you? The ones committing the crimes will be dealt with appropriately and that is what determines us from the Saddams of the world.
"The ones committing the crimes will be dealt with appropriately..."
Do we know that, yet?
let's see...we can have snipers shoot them and and not kill them so they scream for awhile before dying...but don't threaten them with wires?
There's a difference, and if you can't see it, I can't help you.
what is the difference?
I think these soldiers may have done incalculable damage
"Americans claim that they respect freedom and democracy — but only in their country."
apparently there are U.K. solidiers with similar problems.
And what do some Arabs do with their prisoners?...Kill them. But as usual, the libs here never seem to get around to mentioning things like that.