still waiting for those figures on how many women have died during child birth...and how many have destroyed their ability to have children in the process of trying to birth one with complications.
you got those figures yet?
or don't you want to admit that there are such figures?
Who's to say that she didn't use his body to do it to herself?
if she did, then that should impact any responsibilities between them. But the responsibilities are between the man and the woman, not the man and the fetus.
you ask multiple times the same question about a legal precedent with the implied assumption that I somehow agree that society is right in making that legal precedent and I'm the one who's reaching?
or don't you want to admit that there are such figures?
I am sure that there is such figures, but it has nothing to do with the arguement over whether or not the child is a part of the mother's body. Have you found any scientific proof that it is a part of the mother's body like another leg or something?
I am sure that there is such figures, but it has nothing to do with the arguement over whether or not the child is a part of the mother's body. Have you found any scientific proof that it is a part of the mother's body like another leg or something?
and you are gonna decide what is "nature's choice" as well as the doctor's choice and the mother's choice.
It is obvious you don't understand the difference between nature and human acts.
that doesn't change the fact that until it's BORN, it belongs to the mother. It has no identity separate from the mother. The child most certainly does have a separate identity.It's HERS. SHE OWNS IT. It is not a separate thing. It has NO RIGHTS beyond what it's mother gives it. It does NOT gain separate status until IT IS BORN.
OUR SOCIETY DOES NOT EXTEND INTO A WOMAN'S WOMB.
You screaming this does not make it right and convinces no one that understands right and wrong. Of course, under your buddy Demon's view society most certainly can if it chooses to.
It's HER BUSINESS, no one else's.
It is about right and wrong and that makes it everyone's business.
a fetus isn't an individual until it's BORN. Until then, it's ENTIRELY THE MOTHER'S.
No the child is an individual.
and you want to force her to do this with her body. In most case no one forced her to get pregnant.
it's HERS!
ENTIRELY!
NOT YOURS.
The child is a human being but you obviously don't give a rat's ass about that.
the system to try to manipulate your control of a woman's body. No. We want to protect the child. You can lie to yourself about it but that is the fact.
how have I made any woman's body or her fetus my business? I am not surprised you are too blind to see it. Must be the drugs.
You aren't a pregnant woman, are you? It does not matter. It is irrelevant.
Sorry jethro, the little troll named Damon followed me over here. He's looking for a new place to get his ass kicked, again. Why don't you help the poor BOY out.
The child most certainly does have a separate identity
a child does, a fetus does not
The fetus most certainly does. Another example of simple denial of the truth.
it is a question of each person's morality. Your views should not be enforced on anyone
There is no "each person's morality." There is right and wrong. Simply becuase you and some others are too dimwitted to see it doesn't change that fact.
No the child is an individual.
not unless it can survive independent of the mother
That is your excuse to allow the killing. But the fact remains that the unborn child is readily distinguishable from his or her mother. "Fetus" is simply a stage of life that everyone goes through. You simply are saying that it is okay to end that life at that point on what is an emphatically arbitrary basis.
you don't actually believe that the spoon is connected to the woman's body, do you?
Merely differing forms of feeding a child. By the way, YOU ARE FORCING THIS MOTHER TO USE HER BODY TO FEED THIS CHILD. Oh the humanity.
is your mouth not connected to you, Dan?
Yes, but it was never connected to my mother.
a child does, a fetus does not
How then do you explain diferent blood types, not getting aids from the mother, different DNA, different sex, different hair color, etc. all while being in the womb?
it is a question of each person's morality. Your views should not be enforced on anyone
What if someone takes the life of a born child? Can we force our morality and views about that on them? What is the difference?
The fetus most certainly does. Another example of simple denial of the truth.
the government does not recognize it until birth
There is no "each person's morality." There is right and wrong. Simply becuase you and some others are too dimwitted to see it doesn't change that fact.
yes, there is, as my morals differ from yours. You still haven't given us the "true" morality
again with the insults, you must be getting frustrated
What if someone takes the life of a born child? Can we force our morality and views about that on them? What is the difference?
depends on whether you respect someone else's morals
The fetus most certainly does. Another example of simple denial of the truth.
the government does not recognize it until birth
You need to get up to speed becuase it most certainly does.
depends on whether you respect someone else's morals
There aren't "someone else's morals." People can refuse to accept right but that does not mean they have personal morals. It just means they are not moral.
You need to get up to speed becuase it most certainly does
really? So I should have gotten my license 9 months before my 17th birthday? I should have been able to buy alcohol at 20 years and 9 months? I'll qualify for social security (hopefully) when I am 64 and 3 months old?
There aren't "someone else's morals." People can refuse to accept right but that does not mean they have personal morals. It just means they are not moral.
this sort of absolutist thinking is what leads to hate crimes, religious wars, and terrorism
really? So I should have gotten my license 9 months before my 17th birthday? No because you can gauge people's ages by date of birth. None of that changes the fact that the period from conception to birth is an essential part of everyone's life.I should have been able to buy alcohol at 20 years and 9 months? You don't know math too good do you! That would be 20 years and 3 months!
this sort of absolutist thinking is what leads to hate crimes, religious wars, and terrorism No. The above just shows me that you don't understand right and wrong.
do you have anything more to offer than "no, it's not"? You made the statement that " that is whe t he government says you become a separate entity." Show me that is why the government recognizes it. It is handy for keeping records but that is about the only reason and certainly is not " because that is whe t he government says you become a separate entity."
because I understand what is right and wrong to me just as much as what is right and wrong to you
No you don't. Under your theory you can't becuase everyone's is different. For instance, the soldiers in Iraq that abused the prisoners most certainly could say, under your theory, that what they did is right because it is their morality and you shouldn't question them on it. Under your theory there is nothing that could be done about it.
For instance, the soldiers in Iraq that abused the prisoners most certainly could say, under your theory, that what they did is right because it is their morality and you shouldn't question them on it. Under your theory there is nothing that could be done about it.
I know the implications of what you said even if you don't. It is obvious that if someone accepts the proposition that everyone has their own set of morals then you can't criticize them for any of their actions. Presumably they are doing the right thing in their own mind. If you did criticize them you would then be attempting to impose your morals on them. Now unless I am wrong that is something you claim that people shouldn't do.
if the father did this to the mother's body, he has responsibilities to the mother.
Who's to say that she didn't use his body to do it to herself?
You guys have fun, I am going to sleep now.
still waiting for those figures on how many women have died during child birth...and how many have destroyed their ability to have children in the process of trying to birth one with complications.
you got those figures yet?
or don't you want to admit that there are such figures?
Grandpa Dan Zachary 5/10/04 10:36pm
Crabgrass is really reaching.. But hey, I'm used to that by now.
if she did, then that should impact any responsibilities between them. But the responsibilities are between the man and the woman, not the man and the fetus.
Grandpa Dan Zachary 5/10/04 10:37pm
Good night Dan. It is late for me as well.
you ask multiple times the same question about a legal precedent with the implied assumption that I somehow agree that society is right in making that legal precedent and I'm the one who's reaching?
or don't you want to admit that there are such figures?
I am sure that there is such figures, but it has nothing to do with the arguement over whether or not the child is a part of the mother's body. Have you found any scientific proof that it is a part of the mother's body like another leg or something?
Have a goodnight guys.
crabgrass 5/10/04 10:39pm
The costs in question are for the benefit of the fetus.
You sure are opinionated about a subject that you say is none of your business.
there is no difference between the benefit of the fetus and the benefit of the mother.
Well, good night all.
Have fun crabs. It's "none of your business", but by your posting about it shows that you lie. (At least to yourself).
Every word that you post here shows that you have indeed, made it your business.
my posting about it in NO WAY interfers with any woman's body or fetus, no does it make any woman's body or fetus my business.
Which is entirely consistant with what I've been saying.
that you say it's a lie is...well...a lie.
how have I made any woman's body or her fetus my business?
I'm trying to keep people like you from making it your business.
That you think my taking about you wanting to make it your business is making it my business only ways that you think you are a pregnant woman.
You aren't a pregnant woman, are you?
crabgrass 5/10/04 10:48pm
You have indeed made it your business. Every post you make proves it.
then you must be a pregnant woman.
I think RIch claiming to be a pregnant woman is a baldfaced LIE
crabgrass 5/10/04 10:51pm
Is that really the best you can do?
You lost the right to claim it was "none of your business" with your first post about abortion. You made it your business.
what do you think I'm claiming is none of my business?
You aren't a pregnant woman, are you?
crabgrass 5/10/04 10:52pm
Well... Since I never made such a claim... you are either confused or lying. Which it it?
this isn't a pregnant thread, is it?
this isn't a woman's body, is it?
your semantic bullshit has been called.
I never said talking to you about abortion isn't any of my business.
I said what a pregnant woman does about her body isn't my business.
you aren't a pregnant woman, are you?
I see that crabgrass is doing a "spin".
Later.
neither.
your bullshit is quite clear to me
Crabgrass
so, take the spoon out.
you don't actually believe that the spoon is connected to the woman's body, do you?
we don't even know if that woman is the child's mother, do we?
is your mouth not connected to you, Dan?
LOL!
I declare that this discussion has officially hit Rock Bottom.
Welcome to Society...here's your certificate...
88 messages scrolled.
But I assume most of it was "immoral/evil" hyperbole from Jethro
and you are gonna decide what is "nature's choice" as well as the doctor's choice and the mother's choice.
It is obvious you don't understand the difference between nature and human acts.
that doesn't change the fact that until it's BORN, it belongs to the mother. It has no identity separate from the mother. The child most certainly does have a separate identity.It's HERS. SHE OWNS IT. It is not a separate thing. It has NO RIGHTS beyond what it's mother gives it. It does NOT gain separate status until IT IS BORN.
OUR SOCIETY DOES NOT EXTEND INTO A WOMAN'S WOMB.
You screaming this does not make it right and convinces no one that understands right and wrong. Of course, under your buddy Demon's view society most certainly can if it chooses to.
It's HER BUSINESS, no one else's.
It is about right and wrong and that makes it everyone's business.
a fetus isn't an individual until it's BORN. Until then, it's ENTIRELY THE MOTHER'S.
No the child is an individual.
and you want to force her to do this with her body. In most case no one forced her to get pregnant.
it's HERS!
ENTIRELY!
NOT YOURS.
The child is a human being but you obviously don't give a rat's ass about that.
the system to try to manipulate your control of a woman's body. No. We want to protect the child. You can lie to yourself about it but that is the fact.
how have I made any woman's body or her fetus my business? I am not surprised you are too blind to see it. Must be the drugs.
You aren't a pregnant woman, are you? It does not matter. It is irrelevant.
88 messages scrolled.
But I assume most of it was "immoral/evil" hyperbole from Jethro
as usual you are wrong.
Sorry jethro, the little troll named Damon followed me over here. He's looking for a new place to get his ass kicked, again. Why don't you help the poor BOY out.
Torpid, the adults are having a conversation
The child most certainly does have a separate identity
a child does, a fetus does not
The child is a human being but you obviously don't give a rat's ass about that.
it's not a child yet
It is about right and wrong and that makes it everyone's business.
it is a question of each person's morality. Your views should not be enforced on anyone
No the child is an individual.
not unless it can survive independent of the mother
It does not matter. It is irrelevant.
yes it is, as you can't be empathetic
as usual you are wrong.
judging by you last post, no I am not
The child most certainly does have a separate identity
a child does, a fetus does not
The fetus most certainly does. Another example of simple denial of the truth.
it is a question of each person's morality. Your views should not be enforced on anyone
There is no "each person's morality." There is right and wrong. Simply becuase you and some others are too dimwitted to see it doesn't change that fact.
No the child is an individual.
not unless it can survive independent of the mother
That is your excuse to allow the killing. But the fact remains that the unborn child is readily distinguishable from his or her mother. "Fetus" is simply a stage of life that everyone goes through. You simply are saying that it is okay to end that life at that point on what is an emphatically arbitrary basis.
you don't actually believe that the spoon is connected to the woman's body, do you?
Merely differing forms of feeding a child. By the way, YOU ARE FORCING THIS MOTHER TO USE HER BODY TO FEED THIS CHILD. Oh the humanity.
is your mouth not connected to you, Dan?
Yes, but it was never connected to my mother.
a child does, a fetus does not
How then do you explain diferent blood types, not getting aids from the mother, different DNA, different sex, different hair color, etc. all while being in the womb?
it is a question of each person's morality. Your views should not be enforced on anyone
What if someone takes the life of a born child? Can we force our morality and views about that on them? What is the difference?
we protect the rights of the individual.
Only because we as a society have decided to do so.
You're always throwing out these "Rights", even rights that don't exist.
Thing is, we can extend rights to the "Fetus", and take them away from Liberal Communists.
I have a suspicion you wouldn't be happy with that.
The fetus most certainly does. Another example of simple denial of the truth.
the government does not recognize it until birth
There is no "each person's morality." There is right and wrong. Simply becuase you and some others are too dimwitted to see it doesn't change that fact.
yes, there is, as my morals differ from yours. You still haven't given us the "true" morality
again with the insults, you must be getting frustrated
What if someone takes the life of a born child? Can we force our morality and views about that on them? What is the difference?
depends on whether you respect someone else's morals
The fetus most certainly does. Another example of simple denial of the truth.
the government does not recognize it until birth
You need to get up to speed becuase it most certainly does.
depends on whether you respect someone else's morals
There aren't "someone else's morals." People can refuse to accept right but that does not mean they have personal morals. It just means they are not moral.
You need to get up to speed becuase it most certainly does
really? So I should have gotten my license 9 months before my 17th birthday? I should have been able to buy alcohol at 20 years and 9 months? I'll qualify for social security (hopefully) when I am 64 and 3 months old?
There aren't "someone else's morals." People can refuse to accept right but that does not mean they have personal morals. It just means they are not moral.
this sort of absolutist thinking is what leads to hate crimes, religious wars, and terrorism
really? So I should have gotten my license 9 months before my 17th birthday? No because you can gauge people's ages by date of birth. None of that changes the fact that the period from conception to birth is an essential part of everyone's life.I should have been able to buy alcohol at 20 years and 9 months? You don't know math too good do you! That would be 20 years and 3 months!
this sort of absolutist thinking is what leads to hate crimes, religious wars, and terrorism No. The above just shows me that you don't understand right and wrong.
lmao
dude, I could still buy at 20 years 9 months under your proposed plan.
It's a guage of age, because that is whe t he government says you become a separate entity
I understand right and wrong just as well as the next person
It's a guage of age, because that is whe t he government says you become a separate entity
No not becuase the government says "you become a separate entity."
I understand right and wrong just as well as the next person
How can you since everyone's is different?
No not becuase the government says "you become a separate entity."
do you have anything more to offer than "no, it's not"?
How can you since everyone's is different?
because I understand what is right and wrong to me just as much as what is right and wrong to you
do you have anything more to offer than "no, it's not"? You made the statement that " that is whe t he government says you become a separate entity." Show me that is why the government recognizes it. It is handy for keeping records but that is about the only reason and certainly is not " because that is whe t he government says you become a separate entity."
because I understand what is right and wrong to me just as much as what is right and wrong to you
No you don't. Under your theory you can't becuase everyone's is different. For instance, the soldiers in Iraq that abused the prisoners most certainly could say, under your theory, that what they did is right because it is their morality and you shouldn't question them on it. Under your theory there is nothing that could be done about it.
For instance, the soldiers in Iraq that abused the prisoners most certainly could say, under your theory, that what they did is right because it is their morality and you shouldn't question them on it. Under your theory there is nothing that could be done about it.
that isn;t what I am saying at all
that isn;t what I am saying at all
It is whether you know it or not.
you know what I'm thinking?
do you do parties?
you know what I'm thinking?
I know the implications of what you said even if you don't. It is obvious that if someone accepts the proposition that everyone has their own set of morals then you can't criticize them for any of their actions. Presumably they are doing the right thing in their own mind. If you did criticize them you would then be attempting to impose your morals on them. Now unless I am wrong that is something you claim that people shouldn't do.