I'm sure there are many Iraqi who wonder the same thing about Bush and his prison guards right about now.
Knowing there are attitudes like this in America may have something to do with it....
May hell have a special place for them.
I hate you because you hate me and I'm gonna kill you because you are gonna kill me....and around and around...each side thinking they are the right side...and it never fucking stops...
What sort of world is this going to be for my kids?
The world sucks and crabs does not help matters by defending butchers like Al Queada. But it really shouldn't surprise anyone. I mean he thinks it is okay to butcher unborn childrren and even born children as long as the umbilical cord is still attached.
If you consider trying to understand their motives and to see how much their motives resemble your motives is "defending" them, you are sorely mistaken.
I hate you because you hate me and I'm gonna kill you because you are gonna kill me....and around and around...each side thinking they are the right side...and it never fucking stops...
You're right, how silly of me to wish ill of those who would hack off someone's head.
While you're trying to figure out why someone is trying to kill you crabs, they will kill you. I picture crabs trying to figure that out while someone is spraying him with bullets.
how silly of them to wish ill of us when all we do is invade someone's country and try to force our way of life on them.
I see Saddam and his regime-okay. Taking Saddam out and giving the people the chance to rule themselves-wrong. It makes perfect sense! Why didn't I see that before?!!!!!!!
If they didn't have the numbers or guns, maybe enough people were satisfied.
Yea, I'm sure they were. Perhaps the Jews were satisfied too and gosh darnit just didn't have what it took to throw the Nazi's out. Same with the Poles, the Hungarians and the French.
Revolution is not easily accomplished.
What was it you were saying about people getting the government they deserve ?
Gdubbya should have considered THAT, BEFORE we went in there, because now, we are absolutely in a No-Win Situation.
I know you hope that. I also know that you will do everything you can to make sure people think that even though it isn't true. We are fighting Al Queda there which is better than fighting them here. But you don't care as long as Bush or any Republican is not the president. Some people that think like you seem to hate Bush more than Al Queda.
I think the pieces of shit who beheaded that kid can be kept out of power. Alot of it will depend on the Iraqi's and whom they elect down the road. We have to make sure they're strong enough before we do get out of there or yes that will happen. I disagree that it's a foregone conclusion that that they would take over, a possiblity yes. However there are other countries around there where idiots like those are kept in check, Turkey for one, Kuwait and the Kurds actually have had their own democracy for a long time and have been able to keep the jihaidiots and Saddamns henchmen at bay with mere air support from us so I think it's possible, a tall order you bet but we have to finish this. IF we leave now the jihaidiots win and we'll be inviting more of the same. Pulling out when things look the worst is bad.
Believe it or not we are making headway. a couple thousand people protested Al Sadr in najaf the othr day, an unprecedented step. he's losing his support and his army if you want to call it that is crumbling (With a little help from the USMC;) But many are seeing the future if they continue their ways and it doesn't look good if they continue to fire at us.
In an odd twist, it also emerged Thursday that the FBI questioned Berg in 2002 about an e-mail address traced to him that was used by an acquintance of terrorism suspect Zacarias Moussaoui. Investigators concluded that Berg had nothing to do with Moussaoui.
Here's another reason why I think the small factions of jihaidiots will lose.
Surveys: More Iraqis Want Democracy
By WILL LESTER Associated Press Writer  Â
May 14, 2004, 2:22 PM EDT
PHOENIX -- Iraqis are likely to say they want to live in a democracy, though they don't necessarily understand how it works.
Some pollsters who have done nationwide surveys of Iraq in recent months talked about their findings at a meeting this week of the American Association for Public Opinion Research.
One barrier to democracy is that many in the country need more information about how it would work, their research suggests.
"There's the sense that people in Iraq know they want democracy, but they don't know how to get there," said Christoph Sahm, director of Oxford Research International.
Sahm's firm conducted its first nationwide poll of Iraq last fall, and conducted another in February for ABC News, the British Broadcasting Corp., the German broadcasting network ARD and the Japanese network NHK. Oxford is continuing to poll in Iraq.
Richard Burkholder, director of international polling for Gallup, said the type of government Iraqis preferred was a multiparty democracy like those in many Western European countries.
Here's the kicker........
"Very low down the list is an Islamic theocracy, in which mullahs and religious leaders have a lot of influence, such as in Iran," said Burkholder, who polled in Baghdad in August and nationwide in late March and early April for CNN and USA Today.
In the most recent Gallup poll, four in 10 said they preferred a multiparty parliamentary democracy -- that was the form of government most often mentioned. When Oxford Research International asked Iraqis in a separate poll to name the party they favored or the candidate they backed, the majority offered no preference on either question.
For Sahm, the inability or unwillingness to answer those questions indicates Iraqis have much to learn about how democracies and political parties work after decades living in a country ruled by a dictator.
Sahm and Burkholder said they've found Iraqis have a sense of optimism about the future of their country. But they understand that nothing can be achieved until the nation is more secure.
Both pollsters found Iraqis very willing to share their feelings.
This is kind of funny..........
Burkholder recounted how a transitional Iraqi government minister initially told his team Iraqis would not talk to pollsters. But as soon as the minister left the room, another Iraqi laughed and told the Gallup pollster: "Don't pay any attention to him, he's been in Minneapolis for the last 19 years."
Added Sahm, "The response has been tremendous. We go into 100 households and only four or five refuse. It's unheard of."
A recent Pew Research Center study of response levels in the United States found that only about one in four people contacted agreed to participate in a survey conducted over several days.
Both pollsters found Iraqis growing more impatient with the presence of coalition troops, even before the prison abuse controversy emerged. However, most favored getting rid of Saddam Hussein.
Iraqis have identified some successful areas in post-Saddam Iraq, the pollsters found.
"One of the things that comes up again and again as a success in the transition so far is education," Sahm said. He also mentioned increasing trust in the Iraqi police and the new Iraqi army.
"When we see the images of war and terror on the TV screen," Sahm said, "it's hard to believe that behind all of this, many Iraqis are leading normal lives and going about their business."
BY DANIEL HENNINGER Friday, May 14, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT Â Â
By now, some Americans may feel the need for respite from the images of Abu Ghraib and the five hooded barbarians standing behind Nick Berg. This week's column will try to provide some measure of respite.
It is the story of Americans, in and out of the U.S. government, who moved mountains to help seven horribly maimed Iraqi men. It is not always pleasant reading, but there are rewards to staying with it, especially now.
Quite obviously it has been decided, as the handling of the Abu Ghraib story makes plain, that when America stumbles, we are going to have our faces rubbed in it. And rubbed in it and rubbed in it. As far as I can make out, the purpose of this two weeks of media humiliation is that we--the president, all of us--are being asked to morally prostrate ourselves before the rest of the world. Some may choose to do so, but this story should make a few Americans want to simply stand up straight again.
As perfect justice, the story in fact begins in Abu Ghraib prison, in 1995. With Iraq's economy in a tailspin, Saddam arrested nine Iraqi businessmen to scapegoat them as dollar traders. They got a 30-minute "trial," and were sentenced, after a year's imprisonment, to have their right hands surgically cut off at Abu Ghraib prison.
The amputations were performed, over two days, by a Baghdad anesthesiologist, a surgeon and medical staff. We know this because Saddam had a videotape made of each procedure. He had the hands brought to him in formalin and then returned to Abu Ghraib. Oh, one more thing: The surgeon carved an X of shame into the forehead of each man. And the authorities charged the men $50.
Last year, after we liberated Iraq, a veteran TV news producer named Don North--who has worked for major U.S. broadcasters--was in Baghdad with the U.S. to restore TV service. Iraqi contacts there brought him a tape of the men's amputations. Mr. North says dismemberment was common in Saddam's Iraq and that if one walks down a crowded Baghdad street one may see a half-dozen people missing an ear, eye, limb or tongue. He decided to seek out the men whose stubbed arms represented the civilized world's lowest act--the perversion of medicine. He found seven. Mr. North determined to make a documentary of their story and get medical help for them. How he found that help, if one may still use this phrase, is an all-American story. Â Â
Mr. North sent Dr. Agris a copy of the videotape of the surgical atrocities, and Dr. Agris said: Send me the men; I will fix them.
But flying seven Iraqi men out of Baghdad is easier said than done. In this case, prodded by Don North and government friends, the famous U.S. bureaucracy gave itself a day off. Paul Bremer wrote a memo authorizing their departure. Paul Wolfowitz told the Air Force it could fly them to Frankfurt. Homeland Security waived visa requirements.
Continental Airlines donated passage to Houston. There, Dr. Agris enlisted a fellow surgeon, Fred Kestler, to assist. The Methodist Hospital donated facilities, and the men arrived in Houston in early April.
Dr. Agris saw that the Abu Ghraib "surgeries" were a botch. They'd cut through the joining of the wrist's carpal bones, "like carving a Turkey leg." Saddam's doctors did nothing to repair the nerve endings, which left the men with constant real and "phantom" pain. Drs. Agris and Kestler had two preliminary tasks: Repair the nerves, and, alas, take another inch off the men's lower arms, to leave a smooth surface for attaching their new prosthetic "hands." They worked for two days operating on the seven men, who then took a week to recover before receiving their new hands.
Those devices were donated by the German-American prosthetic company Otto Bock, at a cost of $50,000 each. They are state-of-the-art electronic hands, with fingers, which respond to trained muscular movements. The rehabilitation and training is being donated by two other Houston companies, TIRR and Dynamic Orthotics. The Iraqi men are in Houston now, spending five hours a day learning to use their new right hands. And oh yes, the brands on their heads were removed.
Don North completed his documentary on what happened to these men in Iraq. I watched "Remembering Saddam" this week. Several of the men insisted on seeing Saddam's home video of the atrocity, and so it's in the film--a bizarre, almost dainty image of forceps, scalpel, surgical gloves and green operating-room garments. Nothing like it since Dr. Mengele. Watching his hand come off, Baasim Al Fadhly says: "Look at this doctor, who considers his career noble and swears to God to be a noble person. Let everyone see this film."
This crime deserves condemnation from international medical societies, such as the U.N.'s World Health Organization, or the Red Cross. And Don North's film indeed should be seen--but may not be. After two months of trying, no U.S. broadcast or cable network will take it. This is incredible. TV can run Abu Ghraib photos 24/7 but can't find 55 minutes for Saddam's crimes against humanity?
before it's over, I'll bet that it comes out that he had them take pictures and movies of it so that he, George and Dick could sit around laughing at them.
BAGHDAD, Iraq — A roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent exploded near a U.S. military convoy, but there were no casualties, the U.S. military said Monday.
Pump up the promotion machine. If they have the smoking gun, I think this would be the coup they needed. They have all the justification they need. I can't believe they're too modest.
However, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said the results were from a field test, which can be imperfect, and said more analysis was needed. If confirmed, it would be the first finding of a banned weapon upon which the United States based its case for war.
When they couldn't find them, it was only a portion of the case.
It still is. Do you see Bush calling press conferences?
IMHO I still think they'll find them. In what portions I don't know. This crap can be buried and never found. I think if people are looking for some secret lair like a Bond movie they'll be dissapointed. This stuff can be mixed in a hurry. It can also be spread out so large stockpiles won't be found because they spread it out. They were crazy, evil and twisted, not stupid.
"With these two words, two concepts were verbalized that have lived for nearly two and a half Millennia. They signify and characterize both the heart of the Warrior, and the indomitable spirit of mankind. From the ancient Greek, they are the reply of the Spartan General-King Leonidas to Xerxes, the Persian Emperor who came with 600,000 of the fiercest fighting troops in the world to conquer and invade little Greece, then the center and birthplace of civilization as we know it. When Xerxes offered to spare the lives of Leonidas, his 300 personal bodyguards and a handful of Thebans and others who volunteered to defend their country, if they would lay down their arms, Leonidas shouted these two words back.
Could such decisions be the reason that Sparta never became the power that Athens did?
I know of one other memorable battle by Spartans. They won (or at least fought to a standoff), but they doomed themselves to second-class power in the process.
JT: Al Qaeda does exist to terrorize and kill innocent people.
crabs: they exist to protect people from us....they use extreme measures, to be sure, but they are protecting themselves from us.
crabs sinks to new lows everyday. the worst part is the extreme left believes this kind of nonsense.
the "too" clearly implies that I felt you were saying "fuck you" as well, just not in so many words.
crabs, I am not sure anyone gives a damn what you feel. I know I don't.
what about it isn't true?
you honestly think that terrorists don't think we are a threat to them?
I'd be hesitant to dissect the thought patterns of anyone capable of the brutality that claimed Nick Berg's life.
Who can say what motivates them?
Hatred, ignorance to start, with other factors thrown in. May hell have a special place for them.
Do you ever just want to give up?
Quit?
Stop the world, I want to get off!
Watching the news the other day, I was just really... saddened.
What sort of world is this going to be for my kids?
Maybe I've just been naive my whole life.
I'm sure there are many Iraqi who wonder the same thing about Bush and his prison guards right about now.
Knowing there are attitudes like this in America may have something to do with it....
I hate you because you hate me and I'm gonna kill you because you are gonna kill me....and around and around...each side thinking they are the right side...and it never fucking stops...
may hell have a special place for us all.
LOL! crabs, mr. human rights himself, has a presumption of guilt when it comes to Ken Lay...Amazing and extremely stupid.
"Quit talking to me crabgrass" - Torpedo-8
What sort of world is this going to be for my kids?
The world sucks and crabs does not help matters by defending butchers like Al Queada. But it really shouldn't surprise anyone. I mean he thinks it is okay to butcher unborn childrren and even born children as long as the umbilical cord is still attached.
may hell have a special place for us all.
There is no doubt there is a special place in hell for you, crabs.
I don't defend them.
I do, however, try to understand them.
I find that when someone wants to kill you, it's probably a good idea to figure out why.
And that if you want to kill someone, it's also a pretty good idea to absolutely know why.
In a seat right next to you, no doubt.
I don't defend them.
Once again denying the truth.
you speak no truth to deny.
If you consider trying to understand their motives and to see how much their motives resemble your motives is "defending" them, you are sorely mistaken.
It is obvious you are once again lying. You are a pathological liar.
you can say it and say it, but the fact remains, I'm scrupulously honest.
no crabs you are not anything close to honest. you lie to yourself that you think you are honest is just self delusion.
You're right, how silly of me to wish ill of those who would hack off someone's head.
how silly of them to wish ill of us when all we do is invade someone's country and try to force our way of life on them.
do you think we have never hacked a head off someone?
in EL Salvador maybe...or Nam...or...name your theatre of CIA control...
So they're all mad ? So they all agree with lopping heads off ?
While you're trying to figure out why someone is trying to kill you crabs, they will kill you. I picture crabs trying to figure that out while someone is spraying him with bullets.
"Quit talking to me crabgrass" - Torpedo-8
how silly of them to wish ill of us when all we do is invade someone's country and try to force our way of life on them.
I see Saddam and his regime-okay. Taking Saddam out and giving the people the chance to rule themselves-wrong. It makes perfect sense! Why didn't I see that before?!!!!!!!
As long as Saddam was allowed to stay in power, the Iraqi people deserved him.
Politics 101: Every nation gets the government deserves.
that assumes that the people had the ability to overthrow him.
If he was intolerable in their eyes, it was their duty to overthrow him.
They tried a couple of times Rick. If you're unarmed, have no power and live under brutal oppressive rule it's easier said than done.
But no less imperative.
If they didn't have the numbers or guns, maybe enough people were satisfied.
Yea, I'm sure they were. Perhaps the Jews were satisfied too and gosh darnit just didn't have what it took to throw the Nazi's out. Same with the Poles, the Hungarians and the French.
Revolution is not easily accomplished.
What was it you were saying about people getting the government they deserve ?
"Revolution is not easily accomplished. "
I never said it was.
"What was it you were saying about people getting the government they deserve ? "
Just that. And I stand by it.
I'm sure the people of Rwanda would disagree.
"I'm sure the people of Rwanda would disagree."
I don't know that.
If you're right, I hope they prevail one day to the get the government they desire. That's their duty.
"I'm sure the people of Rwanda would disagree."
Yea, sure you don't.
The solution to the problem in Iraq is to let Saddam go and let him put things back in order. Ain't that right, Rick?
Gdubbya should have considered THAT, BEFORE we went in there, because now, we are absolutely in a No-Win Situation.
I know you hope that. I also know that you will do everything you can to make sure people think that even though it isn't true. We are fighting Al Queda there which is better than fighting them here. But you don't care as long as Bush or any Republican is not the president. Some people that think like you seem to hate Bush more than Al Queda.
Bill,
I think the pieces of shit who beheaded that kid can be kept out of power. Alot of it will depend on the Iraqi's and whom they elect down the road. We have to make sure they're strong enough before we do get out of there or yes that will happen. I disagree that it's a foregone conclusion that that they would take over, a possiblity yes. However there are other countries around there where idiots like those are kept in check, Turkey for one, Kuwait and the Kurds actually have had their own democracy for a long time and have been able to keep the jihaidiots and Saddamns henchmen at bay with mere air support from us so I think it's possible, a tall order you bet but we have to finish this. IF we leave now the jihaidiots win and we'll be inviting more of the same. Pulling out when things look the worst is bad.
Believe it or not we are making headway. a couple thousand people protested Al Sadr in najaf the othr day, an unprecedented step. he's losing his support and his army if you want to call it that is crumbling (With a little help from the USMC;) But many are seeing the future if they continue their ways and it doesn't look good if they continue to fire at us.
In an odd twist, it also emerged Thursday that the FBI questioned Berg in 2002 about an e-mail address traced to him that was used by an acquintance of terrorism suspect Zacarias Moussaoui. Investigators concluded that Berg had nothing to do with Moussaoui.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119922,00.html
Here's another reason why I think the small factions of jihaidiots will lose.
Here's the kicker........
This is kind of funny..........
On the Net:
Gallup Web site -- http://www.gallup.com
ABC Web site -- http://abcnews.go.com
Copyright © 2004, The Associated Press
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-iraqi-attitudes,0,7660217,print.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/dhenninger/?id=110005081
before it's over, I'll bet that it comes out that he had them take pictures and movies of it so that he, George and Dick could sit around laughing at them.
BAGHDAD, Iraq — A roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent exploded near a U.S. military convoy, but there were no casualties, the U.S. military said Monday.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html
jethro bodine 5/17/04 7:57am
That can't be, there's no WMD's in Iraq. (sarcasm off)
Well, where's the administration on this?
Pump up the promotion machine. If they have the smoking gun, I think this would be the coup they needed. They have all the justification they need. I can't believe they're too modest.
Rick 5/17/04 3:57pm
Haven't you been keeping up on the news?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html
However, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said the results were from a field test, which can be imperfect, and said more analysis was needed. If confirmed, it would be the first finding of a banned weapon upon which the United States based its case for war.
Been hearing it off and on through the day.
"If confirmed, it would be the first finding of a banned weapon upon which the United States based its case for war."
When they couldn't find them, it was only a portion of the case. I figured the main justification was a 16-acre hole in the middle of Manhattan.
It still is. Do you see Bush calling press conferences?
IMHO I still think they'll find them. In what portions I don't know. This crap can be buried and never found. I think if people are looking for some secret lair like a Bond movie they'll be dissapointed. This stuff can be mixed in a hurry. It can also be spread out so large stockpiles won't be found because they spread it out. They were crazy, evil and twisted, not stupid.
Two little words
"With these two words, two concepts were verbalized that have lived for nearly two and a half Millennia. They signify and characterize both the heart of the Warrior, and the indomitable spirit of mankind. From the ancient Greek, they are the reply of the Spartan General-King Leonidas to Xerxes, the Persian Emperor who came with 600,000 of the fiercest fighting troops in the world to conquer and invade little Greece, then the center and birthplace of civilization as we know it. When Xerxes offered to spare the lives of Leonidas, his 300 personal bodyguards and a handful of Thebans and others who volunteered to defend their country, if they would lay down their arms, Leonidas shouted these two words back.
Molon Labe! (mo-lone lah-veh) "
So, Rich, what happened to Leonidas and his men?
4K joe
Rick 5/17/04 4:30pm
They died. But they died fighting.
Wise leadership, in your estimation?
Could such decisions be the reason that Sparta never became the power that Athens did?
I know of one other memorable battle by Spartans. They won (or at least fought to a standoff), but they doomed themselves to second-class power in the process.
There's such a thing as strategic retreat.