WASHINGTON - U.S. deaths in IRAQ this month are approaching 100 , making it the second-deadliest month since American forces invaded the country in March 2003, Pentagon records show. The worst month was last April, with 135 deaths, when the insurgency intensified and U.S. Marines fought fierce battles in Fallujah, only to be withdrawn from the city . That was part of a failed attempt to put the now-defunct Fallujah Brigade of U.S. and allied Iraqi forces in charge.
Until now the second-deadliest month was November 2003 with 82 deaths, and 80 Americans died in May and September this year.
As I have stated before, this will only continuefor as long as we have young men and women willing to go there and possibly die, for a Lost Cause. Of course, the Gdubbya Gang has changed the rules and reasons why we went there a half a dozen times, but the fact remains that we are there, and our young fighting men and women will continue to die until we leave, and then the Iraqi's will return to what they were before we sent our people there to find WMD;Â
In a Protracted Chaos.
Now they entice our young people with Money, lots of it, just to sign-up. An 18 year old cannot look $15K in the face and say "No". They just want
that money. I didn't get an extra penny when I signed up, nor did anyone who got drafted or signed up in the 60's or 70's, for a tour in Vietnam.
And with GDubbya booting the people with the most experience and GUTS from his administration, the only ones who can and would caution him
(i.e., Colin Powell and Dick Armatage) Â to be traded for people who will ONLY say "YES" to the man, and so we can expect this insanity will continue.
And as a direct-result, lots more Disabled Veterans will be sent home, to a Health Care System that will treat them ONLY as a last resort...and then boot them OUT THE DOOR.
Thatis what the Conservatives have elected this time. More carnage, but now with a LOT more religious fervor ...whether they like it or not.
Favorite Al Stewart song...................."The year of the rat".........On a morning from a Bogart movie, in a country where you turn by time, you go strolling through the crowd like Peter Lowry conetemplating a crime..............The year of the Rat....
I can be certain because those in that area of the world HATE the United States and they HATE our ideas and they HATE the fact that we are occupying an Oil-Rich Country that is Centralto their Muslim Faithand they HATE the fact that any outside nation is even standing on Arab Soil...and they will continue to hate ALL of that, and as a direct result, US. Do you see that? Did you know that? Did you know ANY of it? Most likely...
Oh, and then there is the "little known"Â
fact that they absolutely HATE Israel , and they see that Nation as a puppet of U.S. Hedgmomy in the area. They see all that Jethro, whether right OR wrong, and they HATE us, and they will NOT soon accept any western "Democracy" that has been forced upon them, as this War threatens to do. They see their Muslim Faith as the ONLY answer to the governance of their many peoples. Can you understand that?
--------------------------------------
Rob, I am not about to tell ANY parent that their son died in Vain, in this or ANY War, and you know only a fool would do such a thing. It is NOT the fault of the brave men and women who go to such Wars that they sometimes get seriously maimed for life, or that some actually Die, but it does happen, and I am against THIS War for that very reason because there is NO way that we will "WIN" it.
If our new President would return to the WOT only, and get us OUT of IRAQ, then I would be FORthat action, and sadly accept the deaths of some of our young people, as the only way that War can be won, sadly, because Ground Troops are needed to route the bastards that would destroy US. And they will do that, unless we kill them now . Osama Bin Laden is THE reason why we fight at ALL, or at least, it USED
to be...???
Not like I needed to state all that, but just so I can point to this post the next time you say something as ugly as " Go tell the families that their loved one died for a lost cause", as I will. Frankly, you know better than anyone else that I would go there NOW, and serve again, if I could. I think you would too...that is NOT what I mean, and it never HAS been. Don'y try to paint ME as the bad guy here.
YOU can go tell them all that this is a "War we Can Win...", as chances are that their Grief will tell you to fuck off. All they know now, is that they have a lost son or daughter. Gimme a break... I watched LOTS of people lose brothers, cousins, friends and classmates, etc., etc., etc., all through my teens and during the Vietnam War, and in fact I lost both a Brother and a Cousin during that war, in the 1960's. The last thing any family wants to hear is that their sons and daughters died "in vain". But during those years, especially the latter years, we all KNEW THAT, and it pissed off the people so much so that they threw a President out of office in 1968 and changed the course of History, to stop that War.
I am sorry that our people have not united as we did then, to STOP this "bad war", but soon enough, more people will see the Folly of the War in Iraq, and things WILL change, and we WILL get our troops OUT, perhaps by the end of 2005, as some in Republican circles already say...And I hope that time will come soon, because this War in Iraq, is Wasting our Time, and our young peoples LIVES, for a Lost Cause.
WASHINGTON - Congress on Tuesday sent President Bush three wartime bills to help veterans cope with injuries, jobs, homeownership and death benefits for spouses. In what is expected to be the final week of this Congress, the House gave voice approval to the benefits bills that had already moved through the Senate. Lawmakers lined up to express their support for men and women fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The first, H.R. 3936, includes such provisions as increasing assistance for homeless veterans and establishing new Veterans Affairs Department research centers to develop treatments for complex multi-trauma injuries suffered in combat. It also eliminates copayments for veterans receiving hospice carefurnished by the VA and authorizes the VA's sexual trauma counseling program. Rep. Christopher Smith, R-N.J., sponsor of the bill and chairman of the Veterans' Affairs Committee, said it would also create a pilot program to use online technology and outside personnel recruitment agencies to reduce the shortage of VA nurses.
The second bill, S. 2486, would increase GI Bill benefit rates for apprenticeship and on-the-job training programs and expand home loan programs. Currently the VA will guarantee 25 percent of a qualified home loan up to $240,000; under the legislation the guarantee would apply to a maximum loan of $333,700. The measure also closes loopholes that threaten the rights of servicemembers and their families to end residential or motor vehicle leases early when they are called to active duty. It adds $250 a month to what spouses with children can receive after a servicemember is killed in action.
The third bill, S. 2484, gives the VA more flexibility to recruit and retain highly qualified medical personnel by paying rates that reflect market competition. The top Democrat on the Veterans' Affairs Committee, Rep. Lane Evans of Illinois, said the three bills were critical, but said the delay in getting them through Congress was "another example of how this administration simply does not understand that the costs of war include the continued care of our veterans and military families."
Now, just how much will these three
anemic
Bills (that have been on the table for YEARS by the way)Â change things so that the treatment of Veterans who are now waiting in lines, or who are now fighting to GET into those lines OR those waiting to even get into the DOOR at their local VA Medical Centers...Be positively affected??
Only time will tell...But as it appears to me, almost NOTHING.
The list of things it FAILS to address, are 10 times LONGER than the things it does address... For instance, the small detail that fully HALF of the young men/troops now fighting in IRAQ, do not even QUALIFYfor a VA Home Loan.
Nor other benefits that most G.I.s took for granted, just a few years ago.
I am one of the last generations of service members/Veterans who were Blessed/Priviledged to get Full Montgomery G.I. Bill benefits. They do NOT give them to all the enlistees, any longer. In fact, now they do not even
Get Out
of the service at the time they were
TOLD
they would get out... at the end of their 2,3,4 or even 6 year Enlistment.
Now, they serve for as long as Rumsfeld SAYSthey will serve, and even if they have been OUT of uniform, for as many as 20 years...(Officers). They are in effect, in a forced-servitude
Trap .
They see their Muslim Faith as the ONLY answer to the governance of their many peoples. Can you understand that?
No. I think the Iraqis can rise above it and govern themselves. The Iraqis are deciding the details of their future government and you should understand that.
One definition is: "Prevention of disturbing or painful thoughts or feelings from reaching consciousness, except in a disguised form"
The FCC did not do that.
"Deleting parts of publications or correspondence or theatrical performances".
The FCC didn't do that either.
"the right to express information, ideas, and opinions free of government restrictions based on content and subject only to reasonable limitations (as the power of the government to avoid a clear and present danger) esp. as guaranteed by the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution."
The FCC didn't prevent anyone from airing anything.
I don't really CARE what your definition is, since Obviously, you don't have a damn clue about mine, and you cannot respect my opinion, even though there are millions of people who are saying the same thing, and fear MORE of the same thing....
I read your posts, and try to understand, but they don't make sense. I don't care if a million people agree with you. That doesn't mean they're right in this matter.
But it is your right to be entranced by the Bliss you find yourself in, and that is a terririfc thing to be able to have... A mind which doesn't intellectualize much of anything. You are truly not, an "Elite"...of any kind.
See, now you get nasty and personal for no reason, other than I don't agree with you. You lack any sort of credible argument, so you resort to this. And you CONSTANTLY accuse me of being nasty to you?
Doctor heal thyself.
I certainly Hope So.
That makes a lot of sense. NOT
[Edited 3 times. Most recently by on Nov 13, 2004 at 08:36am.]
Soon enough, the administration people and the Defense Dept. WILL start talking more about shortages, and then begin the slow process of bringing more people into the system, by hook or by crook, and even though Gdubbya has said there would be NO Draft? Â I do NOT see how they will accomplish this goal, unless they DO get out of Iraq first.
The average annual base salaryof a U.S. Postal Service letter carrier was $40,221 in 2001. (Source, USPS) Yet, the annual basic pay of the uniformed mid-grade POs/NCOs (E-5 and above) will account for, on average, about 1/3 that amount and not come close to that $40K mark. Yet, among this Nations enlisted personnel/NCOs, are the mechanics who keep the military's planes in the air, who command multi-million dollar tanks, who teach armed forces enlisted personnel (and officers still in academies) what the military is all about, who command the boat crews called upon to rescue distressed civilians on treacherous seas, who will be separated from their families time after time, especially if they are in the Guard, and who may routinely face the loss of life or limb.
Yet they still find the money to pay out Bonuses for first time enlistees/those who ship-over, HUGE ones, and when these people get out of the military, if they are allowed to ,  they are told that they will NOT get into The VAMC, and they do NOT qualify for G.I. Home Loan guarantees, and onand onand on. Not all mind you, but at least half of all those now in Combat are Guard Units, and they do NOT get the same benefits that active-duty Marines, Army and Navy guys get...anemic as those benefits are becomming.
Nice System. It is no wonder they cannot find enough people to enlist now, justbecause they think it would be a good thing, in and of itself . Instead, they hold people back and call people back who have been out for YEARS, and they give Guard members MUCH LESS in benefits, after/if they get out .
 It has nothing to do with Serving, or returning to their units in the field. It is about giving our troops, wherever they may be, the same privileges and benefits, across the board. They can start with reviewing the PAY that our soldiers get.
Rumsfeld, should be CANNED , and Congress should take up these issues and make BIG CHANGES, now.
It appears to me that the Left wants to censor violence and the Right wants to censor sex. Personally, I'm not for any censorship. Guidelines are there to help parents decide what their kids see. I don't mind if certain things can only be shown during certain hours.
But to say that sexual or violent images don't affect people, and then to censor Joe Camel because he makes kids smoke, is the height of hypocrisy.
I do NOT see how they will accomplish this goal, unless they DO get out of Iraq first.
Do you, Luv?
Yea, start with the Balkans, what the hell are we still doing there ? I remember hearing Prez. Clinton, Home by Christmas. Well he never said which one I guess. Hows about the people that have an actual interest in it like oh I don't know, say Europe send some more people there? Then let's talk Germany. There's enough people, we currently have too many deployments that should have ended years ago.
Yea cut and Run in Iraq, great idea. It did us wonders when we bugged out of Somolia.
Lastly, you didn't answer my real question, which was..."Â I do NOT see how they will accomplish this goal, unless they DO get out of Iraq first.
Do you, Luv ?"
You still haven't answered that basic numbers question, perhaps because you know as well as I do that we can't do it, without getting OUT of Iraq 1st, or by depleting our troop-levels all over the globe, even MORE. Eh?
Or do you only have questions, to my questions? Perhaps you should have asked, "Why did GDubbya Sr. ever decide to go INTOSomailia"?Â
After all, HEsent us in there in the first place. HeleftClinton the Somalia quagmire.
Well if Clinton had wanted us to stay in Somolia he could have period. I'd agree we should have never went in there but pulling us out like that was cited by Bin Laden at what he saw as a weakness. It was a bad idea and a bad precedent.
You want us to go the Sudan but want us out if Iraq?
I did answer your questions on troops. I pointed out all the other places and deployments we aren't needed. Kosovo? Please.
Get us out now is different than cut and run? It's semantics either way you think we ought to start drawing out. I disagree.
Yea and calling it a quagmire after 2 weeks and saying to get out after 2 years isn't?
Peacekeeping forces are neededand have been asked for in Kosovo, and are a part of a larger NATO Force, which has traditionallyprotected Europe, so it isn't like we have over 100,000 troops there, nor anywhere on the planet, except in Iraq. The forces in Germany are already being downsized, and that is the case in S. Korea as well. We are now slowly depleting those forces however, to send them to IRAQ. That's bullshit.
You know as well as I do that if we suddenly turned our backs there(In Iraq), all hell WOULD break loose, just as it would in the Balkans. However, the people of Balkan Nations, many of them Muslim, are Grateful that we DID go in, and are NOT as insane as the people in most Arab States,
Really?
I've got nes for you Bill. Those same Muslims are glad we got rid of Hussein. Not all of them mind you but a majority I guess they don't matter.
So Iraq after 2 years is a lost cause but Kosovo after 10 isn't? So stay in Kosovo, leave Iraq? Sure o.k.
Theslaughter that IS going on all across Africa has been going on ever since they changed the name of Rhodesia to Zimbabwe and Zambia, and BEFORE, all the way back to when people paid to have people chained into ships for the long voyages to America, and slavery. It goes back even unto the eons...
2 Weeks? FUNNY!
And by the way... I was making a reference to something THX said, which you took completely out of context, but you can reply for him if you like.
And by the way... with the new fighting and chasing of the "Insurgents" all across Northern Iraq(for now), instead of JUST in Fallujah, has only Addedto the Quagmire that ISIraq right now. The battle has expanded into neighboring cities and towns, including Bhagdad, all over again. There is NO end in sight.
That , is a Quagmire , and I do NOT care if you want to call me un-patriotic for saying so. You can call it a "Success" all you want, and it still doesn't make it true. OK?
WASHINGTON (AP) -- More than 800 former soldiers have failed to comply with Army orders to get back in uniform and report for duty in Iraq or Afghanistan, the Army said Friday. That is more than one-third of the total who were told to report to a mobilization station by October 17.
Three weeks ago the number stood at 622 amid talk that any who refused to report for duty could be declared Absent Without Leave. Refusing to report for duty normally would lead to AWOL charges, but the Army is going out of its way to resolve these cases as quietly as possible.
In all, 4,166 members of the Individual Ready Reserve have received mobilization orders since July 6, of which 2,288 were to have reported by October 17. The others are to report in coming weeks and months.
There have been many such reports lately, and they will continue to refuse to go and to even sign up, as sure as you are sitting there. So it would seem, that a LOT of former soldiers are not only refusing to go back to that War, but as many as 1/3 of those called up, are not even going back to their own units... anywhere .
They will be caught and charged with the appropriate crimes eventually, and they should, but their numbers continue to GROW, JUST as they did during the Vietnam War.
Another insane, Lost
Cause .
[Edited 2 times. Most recently by on Nov 23, 2004 at 03:23am.]
The 2 weeks I was referring to was to you saying how we were bogged down after 2 whole weeks. You've been saying it from the word go. Well they said that about Afghanistan too. Â
Yea, stay in Bosnia, we've been there 11 years but leave Iraq. Sure o.k.
The US has about 5,500 peacekeeping troops in Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Croatia andthe Sinai Peninsula, in addition to the 140,000-plus presence in Iraq.
Of all the images I saw on a short visit to Iraq last week, two stand out in my mind.
One was a display that the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit, in the Sunni Triangle, prepared for the visiting chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers. It was a table covered with defused roadside bombs made from cell phones wired to explosives. You just call the phone's number when a U.S. vehicle goes by and the whole thing explodes.
The table was full of every color and variety of cell phone bomb you could imagine. I thought to myself that if there is a duty-free electronics store at the gates of hell, this is what the display counter looks like.
The other scene was a briefing by Lt. Gen. John Sattler, the Marine commander in Fallujah. Sattler was explaining how well the Marines, Army, Air Force and Navy Seabees had worked together in Fallujah as a combined task force.
As Sattler was speaking, I looked around at the assembled soldiers in the room. It was a Noah's Ark of Americans: African-Americans and whites, Hispanic Americans and Asians, and men and women I am sure of every faith.
The fact that we can take for granted the trust among so many different ethnic groups, united by the idea of America -- and that the biggest rivalry between our Army and Navy is a football game -- is the miracle of America. That miracle, and its importance, hits you in the face in Iraq when someone tells you that the "new" Iraqi police unit in a village near Fallujah is staffed by one Iraqi tribe and the "new" National Guard unit is staffed by another tribe and they are constantly clashing.
What unites these two scenes is the obvious fact, which still bears repeating, that we are trying to plant the seeds of decent, consensual government in some very harsh soil.
We are not doing nation building in Iraq. That presumes that there was already a coherent nation there and all that is needed is a little time and security for it to be rebuilt. We are actually doing nation creating. We are trying to host the first attempt in the modern Arab world for the people of an Arab country to, on their own, forge a social contract with one another.
Despite all the mistakes made, that is an incredibly noble thing. But for Iraqis to produce such a social contract, such a constitution, requires a minimum of tolerance and respect for majority rights and minority rights -- and neither of those is the cultural norm here. They are not in the drinking water.
Cultures can change, though. But it takes time. And, be advised, it is going to take years to produce a decent outcome in Iraq. But every time I think this can't work, I come across something that suggests, who knows, maybe this time the play will end differently.
The headlines last week were all about Fallujah. But maybe the most important story in Iraq was the fact that while Fallujah was exploding, 106 Iraqi parties and individuals registered to run in the January election. And maybe the second most important story is the relatively quiet way in which Iraqis, and the Arab world, accepted the U.S. invasion of Fallujah. The insurgents there had murdered hundreds of Iraqi Muslims in recent months, and, I think, they lost a lot of sympathy from the Arab street. (But if we don't get the economy going on the Iraqi street, what the rest of the Arab world thinks will be of no help.)
Readers regularly ask me when I will throw in the towel on Iraq. I will be guided by the U.S. Army and Marine grunts on the ground. They see Iraq close up. Most of those you talk to are so uncynical -- so convinced that we are doing good and doing right, even though they too are unsure it will work.
When a majority of those grunts tell us that they are no longer willing to risk their lives to go out and fix the sewers in Sadr City or teach democracy at a local school, then you can stick a fork in this one. But so far, we ain't there yet. The troops are still pretty positive.
So let's thank God for what's in our drinking water, hope that maybe some of it washes over Iraq, and pay attention to the grunts. They'll tell us if it's time to go or stay.
We are not doing nation building in Iraq. That presumes that there was already a coherent nation there and all that is needed is a little time and security for it to be rebuilt. We are actually doing nation creating . We are trying to host the first attempt in the modern Arab world for the people of an Arab country to, on their own, forge a social contract with one another.
Despite all the mistakes made, that is an incredibly noble thing. But for Iraqis to produce such a social contract, such a constitution, requires a minimum of tolerance and respect for majority rights and minority rights -- and neither of those is the cultural norm here. They are not in the drinking water.
I see these two as THE most important paragraphs in that story. The culture there, is NOTgoing to change.
Readers regularly ask me when I will throw in the towel on Iraq. I will be guided by the U.S. Army and Marine grunts on the ground. They see Iraq close up. Most of those you talk to are so uncynical -- so convinced that we are doing good and doing right, even though they too are unsure it will work .
And they have every right to feel that way. Defeatist though...isn't it?
Well nobody is ever sure of anything. There's no guarantees in life. But most of those on the ground and those actually there see it different than you do
They were the most important paragraphs to you. perhaps. He also said.
The headlines last week were all about Fallujah. But maybe the most important story in Iraq was the fact that while Fallujah was exploding, 106 Iraqi parties and individuals registered to run in the January election. And maybe the second most important story is the relatively quiet way in which Iraqis, and the Arab world, accepted the U.S. invasion of Fallujah. The insurgents there had murdered hundreds of Iraqi Muslims in recent months, and, I think, they lost a lot of sympathy from the Arab street.
Bill and I we're talking about levels of troop deployment and how it effects overall strength not on the effect to the populace etc. Try to pay attention.
But it's o.k for you to speak for them? Hmm, nice double standard.
No, I have consistentlypointed to media info and failed missions and bad policy/i
mplimentations
which I have then posted and commented on, which to me, seem to be based on facts. I also lived in San Diego for a year and worked for the Navy and Veterans organizations while there. I too spoke to people who had just come back, all the damn time, and they are NOT
at ALL
anxious to go back. I also speak from experience, as I served when we were in a MOST unpopular War. Call it whatever you like, but I do not have any "double standards".
I'm not speaking for everyone there only people I have talked to. I trust them and they have no reason to sugar coat things when talking with them.
I am also not speaking for everyone , in fact, I am not speaking for anyone . I am speaking as a concerned citizen ...one who has the benefit of hindsight and experience.
I've never said and never heard anyone say it was 100% chance of working. Nothing is definate. You've been against it and been calling it a quagmire 2 weeks into it, you went into it with a preconcieved notion.
That
is not true. I was
FOR The
WOT , and I still
am. I have never said I wasn't, and I have never set a timeline of 2 weeks for
any successful wartime operations, in the WOT. Shit man... It takes longer than that to field a (Battle-Group) or "Task Force" - and get it over there . I never said such a thing. I never even thought
such a thing.
What IÂ have said, from the beginning
is that Iraq was NOTthe place to get involved or bogged down in. It has always appeared to me to be a useless excersize of futility, which has cost us the lives of hundreds of young men and women, giving their lives, to thatcause. These are, for the most part, men and women who signed up as patriotic Americans after 9-11, only to be sent to Iraq, something they NEVERbargained for and which we now cannot get OUT of...Mainly because of GDubbya's religious-hubris. THAT, is a double standard.... Sometimes also called, "Bait and Switch".
IRAQ, to me, is a sideshow made into a quagmire by the sheer stupidity of going IN there, and I am against it because Gdubbya got us IN there based on lies and false assumptions which even he knew were most likely, false. I have watched with a historical horror as the same failed policies of the Vietnam Era have been pursued there, and it gets worse and worse and worse, but NEVER gets better. You guys all SAYit will get better
, but it does NOT...ever.
Because of his divergence from the WOT, Al Quida and the Taliban are BOTH stronger than they were a year ago, the war in IRAQÂ goes on and becomes more dangerous all the time, and Bin Laden, is STILL
Because of his divergence from the WOT, Al Quida and the Taliban are BOTH stronger than they were a year ago,
And your proof to back this up would be?
No, I have consistentlypointed to media infoand failed missionsand bad policy/i mplimentationswhich I have then posted and commented on, which to me, seem to be based on facts.
And I am basing it on what I hear from people there. The media only reports the bad things. I understand a plane landing is not news and one crashing is. But there's been no semblance of balance. Of course nobody wants to go. Who would. But the fact is that they still beleive they are making progress based on what they see with their own eyes. As Friedman said when they stop believing it then we have problems and they haven't.
I have never set a timeline of 2 weeks for anysuccessful wartime operations, in the WOT. Shit man... It takes longer than that to field a (Battle-Group) or "Task Force" - and get it over there. I never said such a thing. I never even thought such a thing.
Really? Well Bill here's what you were saying one and a half weeks into the war.
I HATE this war, and I don't much care for Gen. Franks "strategy" either,("Stormin Norman" and/or Colin Powell would have been in Baghdad by now, and possibly even WON by now)
Hmmm.
What was that about you saying about timelines and never thinking such a thing? You were against it from the start and criticized it less than 2 weeks into it.
I have never set a timeline of 2 weeks for anysuccessful wartime operations, in the WOT.  (Please notice LUV... I said the WOT... got it now?)
 Shit man... It takes longer than that to field a (Battle-Group) or "Task Force" - and get it over there. I never said such a thing. I never even thought such a thing.
Really? Well Bill here's what you were saying one and a half weeks into the war.
Into the War in IRAQ.
I have NEVER been FOR the Iraq War and I fully admit to that, but thanks for reminding me. My comments on Franks and others involved in THAT war, have been proven correct anyway. They HAVE failed there, and Gdubbya has LED that failed effort. That is NOT news anymore.
I have said many times that we do not haveenough forces to do the job, and I have been proven correct every fucking time. Everyone EXCEPT Rumsfeld and his closest Generals/Aides, have said exactly the same thing, including some of his own Generals on the ground there... It is NOT going well, after which they are, for the most part, dismissed. Except for the General who ran the prisons in Iraq and in Gitmo, 2002-2004...Hehas been Promoted and is now at The Pentagon! Now that is surely NOT "Positive", but it is the Truth. You don't like the truth about the absolute futility of IRAQ, so I guess you expect some Sunshine to be blown up your ass, and then you'll call it "Positive". Try Townhall.Com. They do a Magnificent Jobof Blowing Sunshine up peoples asses.
To say there aren't any "Positive" stories, or even that there are very few, is LUDICROUS
. I can go get 10 stories posted todayby various American News Sources, ALLpositive, as anyone can. Perhaps it is time YOU
 re-evaluated your reading materials ...
That statement, was absolute Crap.
[Edited 2 times. Most recently by on Nov 25, 2004 at 04:39am.]
Cooking for 30 hungry sailors means Katherine and Walter Blessey will smoke five turkeys and three prime ribs. A quiet Thanksgiving they will not have. But the Biloxi couple will send a family friend and his unit off to the Middle East with a pleasant memory, full stomachs and the happiness of having spent the holiday with family.
"(The unit) thought they were just going to go to a casino for Thanksgiving," said James Lapeyrouse, 34, of Houston, a Navymedical technician who will likely miss the birth of his first child while he's in the Middle East. Lapeyrouse graduated from high school with the Blesseys' son, John, in Houston. An insurance adjuster in civilian life, his Naval Reserve medical unit from Houston will soon head for Kuwait, where they will spend a year caring for soldiers and Marines wounded in Iraq.
The Blesseys had planned to go to Atlanta for Thanksgiving. We thought it would be good to give (Lapeyrouse) and his unit a send-off," said Walter, who remembers a lonely holiday season in Vietnam during 1965. The reservists appreciate the gesture. "I feel their spirit and share the same ideals," said Petty Officer First Class Joel Diaz, who on Wednesday helped the Blesseys prepare for the feast.
The Blesseys love entertaining and cooking together.
"We just enjoy doing this," said Katherine Blessey. "It's not work for us. Walter's and my life is filled with gratitude." The Reservists are training at the Naval Construction Battalion Center in Gulfport and expect to leave soon for the Middle East. By operating a hospital in Kuwait, they will provide closer care for wounded troops now flown to Germany. For the next year, Lapeyrouse and his unit will eat mostly in military-style chow halls. The memory of today's meal could haunt them.
Said Lapeyrouse, who already sounded hungry, "Every time I come to town, (Walter) has barbecue shrimp that's incredible."
That's just ONE "Postive" Story to be GLAD for today, Thanksgiving.
I only wish that the young Troops coming HOME from the WOT got this kind of reception when they come BACK , which as a rule they Do NOT. I wonder... where are all their parades??? Why don't you go out and schedule one...just ONE.
There are huge receptions every day at DFW airport for both outgoing and incoming troops. I doubt that it's the only place in the country where that is going on.
You know, Bill, I remember seeing that center at MSP. I was always glad that it was there for them. I have seen so many thoughtful things done by individuals and groups for the soldiers.
I remember what you're talking about, during the Vietnam War. I was very anti-war then and was active in the movement in the beginning. But when they started mistreating soldiers, burning the American flag and flying the North Vietnam flag, I quit in disgust. I have NEVER understood the attitude of blaming the troops.
Let me know if you see or get anything going in the Twin Cities, at the airport or elsewhere. I know a lot of people up there who would love to get involved.
you say to someone calling from there? Bummer...  At least he is alive and well, and he called . Pretty cool Thanksgiving "Treat". I remember when my own brother called home in 1968, from DaNang. It was wierd.... "Hi, how are you guys... OVER "? All the calls back then were on short-wave and it was a hassle, but worth it if you were lonely for mom , and apple pie ...?
I called the Vet-Center yesterday, and they gave me the name of someone else to call on Monday, at their main offices out there. I'll let you know .
I never said you aided and abetted the enemy, never. Find it and post it. Play the victim.
And you know that, because? Don't speak for the troops who are In Countryand CANNOT LEAVE...OK?
But it's o.k for you to speak for them? Hmm, nice double standard.
I'm not speaking for everyone there only people I have talked to. I trust them and they have no reason to sugar coat things when talking with them.
I've never said and never heard anyone say it was 100% chance of working. Nothing is definate. You've been against it and been calling it a quagmire 2 weeks into it, you went into it with a preconcieved notion. What does bother me is the media's failure to recognize some amazing progress by our men and women in uniform. Some of what they've done is astounding. It's also amazing that out of all the acts of heroism and bravery what's the one soldier people know? Lindie England the cigarette smoking midget from Abu Grihab after that people draw a blank. I'm not saying it's perfect, nobody I know of says it is. But what they and I do say is that it's worth trying and that leaving now would be disastorous and they believe they are making progress and can succeed.
Â
Â
Â
[Edited 3 times. Most recently by on Nov 23, 2004 at 08:40am.]
Park the snowmobile this winter, jetski in the summer. Get some exercise outdoors instead. Public transportation three days a week to work. Think about carpooling.
Shovel the snow from your driveways and sidewalks.
Admit that oil is a component in this war, whether the Bush Adminstration tells you so or not.
That way, this could be the last conflict the troops have to fight like this. Maybe a similar one against China or India in 30 ro 40 years won't have to happen. That one you really don't want to fight.
And our natural resources could remain unspoiled.
[Edited 4 times. Most recently by on Nov 27, 2004 at 05:14pm.]
Those ribbons ARE now meaningless, and especially when there are 3 or 4 on the same car...  E xcept to those who may have a son or daughter or brother or sister, over there . It is almost like... if you do not have one on your car, you are somehow against those who do.
I have a Blue-Ribbonon my bumper which says " Bring Home Our Troops
ow, such a zinger
well, I for one am glad you consider those of us who break unjust laws patriots
Why isn't he in jail? Why didn't Clinton go to jail?
Associated Press
November 17, 2004
WASHINGTON - U.S. deaths in IRAQ this month are approaching
100
, making it the second-deadliest month since American forces invaded the country in March 2003, Pentagon records show. The worst month was last April, with
135
deaths, when the insurgency intensified and U.S. Marines fought fierce battles in Fallujah, only to be
withdrawn from the city
. That was part of a
failed attempt
to put the now-defunct Fallujah Brigade of U.S. and allied Iraqi forces in charge.
Until now the second-deadliest month was November 2003 with 82 deaths, and 80 Americans died in May and September this year.
As I have stated before, this will only continuefor as long as we have young men and women willing to go there and possibly die, for a Lost
Cause. Of course, the Gdubbya Gang has changed the rules and reasons
why
we went there a half a dozen times, but the fact remains that we
are
there, and our young fighting men and women will continue to die until we leave, and then the Iraqi's will return to what they were before we sent our people there to find WMD;Â
In a Protracted Chaos.
Now they entice our young people with Money, lots of it, just to sign-up. An 18 year old cannot look $15K in the face and say "No". They just
want
that money. I didn't get an extra penny when I signed up, nor did anyone who got drafted or signed up in the 60's or 70's, for a tour in Vietnam.
And with GDubbya booting the people with the most experience and GUTS from his administration, the only ones who can and would caution him
(i.e., Colin Powell and Dick Armatage)
 to be traded for people who will ONLY say "YES" to the man, and so we can expect this insanity will continue.
And as a direct-result, lots more
Disabled Veterans
will be sent home, to a Health Care System that will treat them ONLY as a last resort...and then boot them OUT THE DOOR.
Thatis what the Conservatives have elected this time.
More
carnage, but now with a LOT more
religious fervor
...whether they like it or not.
[Edited by on Nov 17, 2004 at 04:13am.]
As I have stated before, this will only continue for as long as we have young men and women willing to go there and possibly die, for a Lost Cause.
Go tell the families that their loved one died for a lost cause.
Favorite Al Stewart song...................."The year of the rat".........On a morning from a Bogart movie, in a country where you turn by time, you go strolling through the crowd like Peter Lowry conetemplating a crime..............The year of the Rat....
how can fold be so certain that it is a lost cause?
That's the Year of the Cat, Rob.
the only other conclusion is that he's anti-American and views our founding fathers as common criminals.
I can be certain because those in that area of the world HATE the United States and they HATE our ideas and they HATE the fact that we are occupying an Oil-Rich Country that is Centralto their Muslim Faithand they HATE the fact that any outside nation is even standing on Arab Soil...and they will continue to hate ALL of that, and as a direct result, US. Do you see that? Did you know that? Did you know ANY of it? Most likely...
Oh, and then there is the "little known"Â
fact
that they
absolutely
HATE
Israel
, and they see that Nation as a puppet of U.S. Hedgmomy in the area. They see all that Jethro, whether right OR wrong, and they HATE us, and they will NOT soon accept any western "Democracy" that has been forced upon them, as this War threatens to do. They see their Muslim Faith as the ONLY answer to the governance of their many peoples. Can you understand that?
--------------------------------------
Rob, I am not about to tell ANY parent that their son died in Vain, in this or
ANY
War, and you know only a fool would do such a thing. It is NOT the fault of the brave men and women who go to such Wars that they sometimes get seriously maimed for life, or that some actually Die, but it does happen, and I am against THIS War for that very reason because there is NO way that we will "WIN" it.
If our new President would return to the WOT only, and get us OUT of IRAQ, then I would be FORthat action, and sadly accept the deaths of some of our young people, as the only way that War can be won, sadly, because Ground Troops are needed to route the bastards that would destroy US. And they will do that, unless we kill them
now
. Osama Bin Laden is THE reason why we fight at ALL, or at least, it
USED
to be...???
Not like I needed to state all that, but just so I can point to this post the next time you say something as ugly as "
Go tell the families that their loved one died for a lost cause", as I will. Frankly, you know better than anyone else that I would go there NOW, and serve again, if I could. I think you would too...that is NOT what I mean, and it never HAS been. Don'y try to paint ME as the bad guy here.
YOU can go tell them all that this is a "War we Can Win...", as chances are that their Grief will tell you to fuck off. All they know now, is that they have a lost son or daughter. Gimme a break... I watched LOTS of people lose brothers, cousins, friends and classmates, etc., etc., etc., all through my teens and during the Vietnam War, and in fact I lost both a Brother and a Cousin during that war, in the 1960's. The last thing any family wants to hear is that their sons and daughters died "in vain". But during those years, especially the latter years, we all KNEW THAT, and it pissed off the people so much so that they threw a President
out of office
in 1968 and changed the course of History, to stop that War.
I am sorry that our people have not united as we did then, to STOP this "bad war", but soon enough, more people will see the Folly of the War in Iraq, and things WILL change, and we WILL get our troops OUT, perhaps by the end of 2005, as some in Republican circles already say...And I hope that time will come soon, because this War in Iraq, is Wasting our Time, and our young peoples LIVES, for a
Lost Cause.
Associated Press
November 18, 2004
WASHINGTON - Congress on Tuesday sent President Bush three wartime bills to help veterans cope with injuries, jobs, homeownership and death benefits for spouses. In what is expected to be the final week of this Congress, the House gave voice approval to the benefits bills that had already moved through the Senate. Lawmakers lined up to express their support for men and women fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The first, H.R. 3936, includes such provisions as increasing assistance for homeless veterans and establishing new Veterans Affairs Department research centers to develop treatments for complex multi-trauma injuries suffered in combat. It also eliminates copayments for veterans receiving hospice carefurnished by the VA and authorizes the VA's sexual trauma counseling program. Rep. Christopher Smith, R-N.J., sponsor of the bill and chairman of the Veterans' Affairs Committee, said it would also create a pilot program to use online technology and outside personnel recruitment agencies to reduce the shortage of VA nurses.
The second bill, S. 2486, would increase GI Bill benefit rates for apprenticeship and on-the-job training programs and expand home loan programs. Currently the VA will guarantee 25 percent of a qualified home loan up to $240,000; under the legislation the guarantee would apply to a maximum loan of $333,700. The measure also closes loopholes that threaten the rights of servicemembers and their families to end residential or motor vehicle leases early when they are called to active duty. It adds
$250
a month to what spouses with children can receive after a servicemember is killed in action.
The third bill, S. 2484, gives the VA more flexibility to recruit and retain highly qualified medical personnel by paying rates that reflect market competition. The top Democrat on the Veterans' Affairs Committee, Rep. Lane Evans of Illinois, said the three bills were critical, but said the delay in getting them through Congress was "another example of how this administration simply does not understand that the costs of war include the continued care of our veterans and military families."
Now, just how much will these three
anemic
Bills (that have been on the table for YEARS by the way)Â change things so that the treatment of Veterans who are now waiting in lines, or who are now fighting to GET into those lines OR those waiting to even get into the DOOR at their local VA Medical Centers...Be positively affected??
Only time will tell...But as it appears to me, almost NOTHING.
The list of things it FAILS to address, are 10 times LONGER than the things it does address... For instance, the small detail that fully HALF of the young men/troops now fighting in IRAQ, do not even QUALIFYfor a VA Home Loan.
Nor other benefits that most G.I.s took for granted, just a few years ago.
I am one of the last generations of service members/Veterans who were Blessed/Priviledged to get Full Montgomery G.I. Bill benefits. They do NOT give them to all the enlistees, any longer. In fact, now they do not even
Get Out
of the service at the time they were
TOLD
they would get out...
at the end of their 2,3,4 or even 6 year Enlistment.
Now, they serve for as long as Rumsfeld SAYSthey will serve, and even if they have been OUT of uniform, for as many as 20
years...(Officers). They are in effect, in a forced-servitude
Trap
.
Â
[Edited by on Nov 18, 2004 at 04:01am.]
Bill,
All I'll say in response is that that most of the wounded want to know how quick they can get back to their unit in Iraq. I think that says it all.
Â
Anyone see any Kerry coverage at Veteran ceremonies yesterday?
I looked for it. Saw none. Found none.
Looks like he has the same respect for fellow Veterans today as he did in 1970.
Don't forget. He was Fold's guy.
[Edited by on Nov 12, 2004 at 09:42am.]
They see their Muslim Faith as the ONLY answer to the governance of their many peoples. Can you understand that?
No. I think the Iraqis can rise above it and govern themselves. The Iraqis are deciding the details of their future government and you should understand that.
Nothing is ever enough for Fold.
One definition is: "Prevention of disturbing or painful thoughts or feelings from reaching consciousness, except in a disguised form"
The FCC did not do that.
"Deleting parts of publications or correspondence or theatrical performances".
The FCC didn't do that either.
"the right to express information, ideas, and opinions free of government restrictions based on content and subject only to reasonable limitations (as the power of the government to avoid a clear and present danger) esp. as guaranteed by the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution."
The FCC didn't prevent anyone from airing anything.
I don't really CARE what your definition is, since Obviously, you don't have a damn clue about mine, and you cannot respect my opinion, even though there are millions of people who are saying the same thing, and fear MORE of the same thing....
I read your posts, and try to understand, but they don't make sense. I don't care if a million people agree with you. That doesn't mean they're right in this matter.
But it is your right to be entranced by the Bliss you find yourself in, and that is a terririfc thing to be able to have... A mind which doesn't intellectualize much of anything. You are truly not, an "Elite"...of any kind.
See, now you get nasty and personal for no reason, other than I don't agree with you. You lack any sort of credible argument, so you resort to this. And you CONSTANTLY accuse me of being nasty to you?
Doctor heal thyself.
I certainly Hope So.
That makes a lot of sense. NOT
[Edited 3 times. Most recently by on Nov 13, 2004 at 08:36am.]
Soon enough, the administration people and the Defense Dept. WILL start talking more about shortages, and then begin the slow process of bringing more people into the system, by hook or by crook, and even though Gdubbya has said there would be NO Draft? Â I do NOT see how they will accomplish this goal, unless they DO get out of Iraq first.
Do you, Luv?
[Edited by on Nov 19, 2004 at 03:56am.]
The average annual base salaryof a U.S. Postal Service letter carrier was $40,221 in 2001. (Source, USPS) Yet, the annual basic pay of the uniformed mid-grade POs/NCOs (E-5 and above) will account for, on average, about 1/3 that amount and not come
close
to that $40K mark. Yet, among this Nations enlisted personnel/NCOs, are the mechanics who keep the military's planes in the air, who command multi-million dollar tanks, who teach armed forces enlisted personnel (and officers still in academies) what the military is all about, who command the boat crews called upon to rescue distressed civilians on treacherous seas, who will be separated from their families time after time, especially if they are in the Guard, and who may routinely face the loss of life or limb.
Yet they still find the money to pay out Bonuses for first time enlistees/those who ship-over, HUGE ones, and when these people get out of the military,
if they are allowed to
,Â
 they are told that they will NOT get into The VAMC, and they do NOT qualify for G.I. Home Loan guarantees, and onand onand on. Not all mind you, but at least half of all those now in Combat are Guard Units, and they do NOT get the same benefits that active-duty Marines, Army and Navy guys get...anemic as those benefits are becomming.
Nice System. It is no wonder they cannot find enough people to enlist now,
justbecause they think it would be a good thing,
in and of itself
. Instead, they hold people back and call people back who have been out for YEARS, and they give Guard members MUCH LESS in benefits,
after/if
they
get out
.
 It has nothing to do with Serving, or returning to their units in the field. It is about giving our troops, wherever they may be, the same privileges and benefits, across the board. They can start with reviewing the PAY that our soldiers get.
Rumsfeld,
should be CANNED
, and Congress should take up these issues and make BIG CHANGES, now.
[Edited by on Nov 19, 2004 at 06:21am.]
It appears to me that the Left wants to censor violence and the Right wants to censor sex. Personally, I'm not for any censorship. Guidelines are there to help parents decide what their kids see. I don't mind if certain things can only be shown during certain hours.
But to say that sexual or violent images don't affect people, and then to censor Joe Camel because he makes kids smoke, is the height of hypocrisy.
Â
I do NOT see how they will accomplish this goal, unless they DO get out of Iraq first.
Do you, Luv?
Yea, start with the Balkans, what the hell are we still doing there ? I remember hearing Prez. Clinton, Home by Christmas. Well he never said which one I guess. Hows about the people that have an actual interest in it like oh I don't know, say Europe send some more people there? Then let's talk Germany. There's enough people, we currently have too many deployments that should have ended years ago.
Yea cut and Run in Iraq, great idea. It did us wonders when we bugged out of Somolia.
Whew! That rant ranks in the top 10. We shouldn't be in Iraq but we should be in Sudan? That would be something else for you to bitch about, Fold.
Oil...What oil? Are you pumping gas made from Iraqi oil, Fold?
You seem to be quite the expert for not being there and having no association with the war.
Â
Lastly, you didn't answer my real question, which was..."Â I do NOT see how they will accomplish this goal, unless they DO get out of Iraq first.
Do you, Luv
?"
You still haven't answered that basic numbers question, perhaps because you know as well as I do that we can't do it, without getting OUT of Iraq 1st, or by depleting our troop-levels all over the globe, even MORE. Eh?
Or do you only have questions, to my questions? Perhaps you should have asked, "Why did GDubbya Sr. ever decide to go INTOSomailia"?Â
After all, HEsent us in there in the first place. HeleftClinton the Somalia quagmire.
Well if Clinton had wanted us to stay in Somolia he could have period. I'd agree we should have never went in there but pulling us out like that was cited by Bin Laden at what he saw as a weakness. It was a bad idea and a bad precedent.
You want us to go the Sudan but want us out if Iraq?
I did answer your questions on troops. I pointed out all the other places and deployments we aren't needed. Kosovo? Please.
Get us out now is different than cut and run? It's semantics either way you think we ought to start drawing out. I disagree.
"Quit talking to me crabgrass" - Torpedo-8
he has pursued a policy of defeatism, in Africa.
Yea and calling it a quagmire after 2 weeks and saying to get out after 2 years isn't?
Peacekeeping forces are neededand have been asked for in Kosovo, and are a part of a larger NATO Force, which has traditionallyprotected Europe, so it isn't like we have over 100,000 troops there, nor anywhere on the planet, except in Iraq. The forces in Germany are already being downsized, and that is the case in S. Korea as well. We are now slowly depleting those forces however, to send them to IRAQ. That's bullshit.
You know as well as I do that if we suddenly turned our backs there(In Iraq), all hell WOULD break loose, just as it would in the Balkans. However, the people of Balkan Nations, many of them Muslim, are Grateful that we DID go in, and are NOT as insane as the people in most Arab States,
Really?
I've got nes for you Bill. Those same Muslims are glad we got rid of Hussein. Not all of them mind you but a majority I guess they don't matter.
So Iraq after 2 years is a lost cause but Kosovo after 10 isn't? So stay in Kosovo, leave Iraq? Sure o.k.
[Edited by on Nov 22, 2004 at 12:32pm.]
2 Weeks?
Theslaughter that IS going on all across Africa has been going on ever since they changed the name of Rhodesia to Zimbabwe and Zambia, and BEFORE, all the way back to when people paid to have people chained into ships for the long voyages to America, and slavery. It goes back even unto the eons...
2 Weeks? FUNNY!
And by the way... I was making a reference to something THX said, which you took completely out of context, but you can reply for him if you like.
[Edited by on Nov 23, 2004 at 03:10am.]
And by the way... with the new fighting and chasing of the "Insurgents" all across Northern Iraq(for now), instead of JUST in Fallujah, has only Addedto the
Quagmire
that ISIraq right now. The battle has expanded into neighboring cities and towns, including Bhagdad, all over again. There is NO end in sight.
That
, is a Quagmire
, and I do NOT care if you want to call me un-patriotic for saying so. You can call it a "Success" all you want, and it still doesn't make it true. OK?
WASHINGTON (AP) -- More than 800 former soldiers have failed to comply with Army orders to get back in uniform and report for duty in Iraq or Afghanistan, the Army said Friday. That is more than one-third of the total who were told to report to a mobilization station by October 17.
Three weeks ago the number stood at 622 amid talk that any who refused to report for duty could be declared Absent Without Leave. Refusing to report for duty normally would lead to AWOL charges, but the Army is going out of its way to resolve these cases as quietly as possible.
In all, 4,166 members of the Individual Ready Reserve have received mobilization orders since July 6, of which 2,288 were to have reported by October 17. The others are to report in coming weeks and months.
There have been many such reports lately, and they will continue to refuse to go and to even sign up, as sure as you are sitting there. So it would seem, that a LOT of former soldiers are not only refusing to go back to that War, but as many as 1/3 of those called up, are not even going back to their own units...
anywhere
.
They will be caught and charged with the appropriate crimes eventually, and they should, but their numbers continue to GROW,
JUST
as they did during the Vietnam War.
Another insane,
Lost
Cause
.
[Edited 2 times. Most recently by on Nov 23, 2004 at 03:23am.]
The 2 weeks I was referring to was to you saying how we were bogged down after 2 whole weeks. You've been saying it from the word go. Well they said that about Afghanistan too. Â
Yea, stay in Bosnia, we've been there 11 years but leave Iraq. Sure o.k.
Â
[Edited by on Nov 23, 2004 at 05:38am.]
How Many Troops were IN Kosovo 2 years after the start of hostilities, as compared to 140,000 now in Iraq, 2 years after our invasion there??
Apples, and Oranges.
answer...
The US has about 5,500 peacekeeping troops in Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Croatia andthe Sinai Peninsula, in addition to the 140,000-plus presence in Iraq.
Source-L.A.Times
[Edited by on Nov 23, 2004 at 06:24am.]
Thomas Freidman
Of all the images I saw on a short visit to Iraq last week, two stand out in my mind.
One was a display that the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit, in the Sunni Triangle, prepared for the visiting chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers. It was a table covered with defused roadside bombs made from cell phones wired to explosives. You just call the phone's number when a U.S. vehicle goes by and the whole thing explodes.
The table was full of every color and variety of cell phone bomb you could imagine. I thought to myself that if there is a duty-free electronics store at the gates of hell, this is what the display counter looks like.
The other scene was a briefing by Lt. Gen. John Sattler, the Marine commander in Fallujah. Sattler was explaining how well the Marines, Army, Air Force and Navy Seabees had worked together in Fallujah as a combined task force.
As Sattler was speaking, I looked around at the assembled soldiers in the room. It was a Noah's Ark of Americans: African-Americans and whites, Hispanic Americans and Asians, and men and women I am sure of every faith.
The fact that we can take for granted the trust among so many different ethnic groups, united by the idea of America -- and that the biggest rivalry between our Army and Navy is a football game -- is the miracle of America. That miracle, and its importance, hits you in the face in Iraq when someone tells you that the "new" Iraqi police unit in a village near Fallujah is staffed by one Iraqi tribe and the "new" National Guard unit is staffed by another tribe and they are constantly clashing.
What unites these two scenes is the obvious fact, which still bears repeating, that we are trying to plant the seeds of decent, consensual government in some very harsh soil.
We are not doing nation building in Iraq. That presumes that there was already a coherent nation there and all that is needed is a little time and security for it to be rebuilt. We are actually doing nation creating. We are trying to host the first attempt in the modern Arab world for the people of an Arab country to, on their own, forge a social contract with one another.
Despite all the mistakes made, that is an incredibly noble thing. But for Iraqis to produce such a social contract, such a constitution, requires a minimum of tolerance and respect for majority rights and minority rights -- and neither of those is the cultural norm here. They are not in the drinking water.
Cultures can change, though. But it takes time. And, be advised, it is going to take years to produce a decent outcome in Iraq. But every time I think this can't work, I come across something that suggests, who knows, maybe this time the play will end differently.
The headlines last week were all about Fallujah. But maybe the most important story in Iraq was the fact that while Fallujah was exploding, 106 Iraqi parties and individuals registered to run in the January election. And maybe the second most important story is the relatively quiet way in which Iraqis, and the Arab world, accepted the U.S. invasion of Fallujah. The insurgents there had murdered hundreds of Iraqi Muslims in recent months, and, I think, they lost a lot of sympathy from the Arab street. (But if we don't get the economy going on the Iraqi street, what the rest of the Arab world thinks will be of no help.)
Readers regularly ask me when I will throw in the towel on Iraq. I will be guided by the U.S. Army and Marine grunts on the ground. They see Iraq close up. Most of those you talk to are so uncynical -- so convinced that we are doing good and doing right, even though they too are unsure it will work.
When a majority of those grunts tell us that they are no longer willing to risk their lives to go out and fix the sewers in Sadr City or teach democracy at a local school, then you can stick a fork in this one. But so far, we ain't there yet. The troops are still pretty positive.
So let's thank God for what's in our drinking water, hope that maybe some of it washes over Iraq, and pay attention to the grunts. They'll tell us if it's time to go or stay.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5100015.html
We are not doing nation building in Iraq. That presumes that there was already a coherent nation there and all that is needed is a little time and security for it to be rebuilt. We are actually doing nation
creating
. We are trying to host the first attempt in the modern Arab world for the people of an Arab country to, on their own, forge a social contract with one another.
Despite all the mistakes made, that is an incredibly noble thing. But for Iraqis to produce such a social contract, such a constitution, requires a minimum of tolerance and respect for majority rights and minority rights -- and neither of those is the cultural norm here. They are not in the drinking water.
I see these two as
THE
most important paragraphs in that story. The culture there, is NOTgoing to change.
Readers regularly ask me when I will throw in the towel on Iraq. I will be guided by the U.S. Army and Marine grunts on the ground. They see Iraq close up. Most of those you talk to are so uncynical -- so convinced that we are doing good and doing right, even though they too are unsure it will work
.
And they have every right to feel that way.
Defeatist though...isn't it?
Well nobody is ever sure of anything. There's no guarantees in life. But most of those on the ground and those actually there see it different than you do
They were the most important paragraphs to you. perhaps. He also said.
The headlines last week were all about Fallujah. But maybe the most important story in Iraq was the fact that while Fallujah was exploding, 106 Iraqi parties and individuals registered to run in the January election. And maybe the second most important story is the relatively quiet way in which Iraqis, and the Arab world, accepted the U.S. invasion of Fallujah. The insurgents there had murdered hundreds of Iraqi Muslims in recent months, and, I think, they lost a lot of sympathy from the Arab street.
http://www.voicesofiraq.com/
So, if say, France put 5500 troops in Texas, it would be nothing?
[Edited by molegrass on Nov 23, 2004 at 12:27pm.]
Bill and I we're talking about levels of troop deployment and how it effects overall strength not on the effect to the populace etc. Try to pay attention.
But it's o.k for you to speak for them? Hmm, nice double standard.
No, I have consistentlypointed to
media info
and
failed missions
and
bad policy/i
mplimentations
which I have then posted and commented on, which to me, seem to be based on facts. I also lived in San Diego for a year and worked for the Navy and Veterans organizations while there. I too spoke to people who had just come back, all the damn time, and they are
NOT
at
ALL
anxious to go back. I also speak from experience, as I served when we were in a MOST unpopular War. Call it whatever you like, but I do not have any "double standards".
I'm not speaking for everyone there only people I have talked to. I trust them and they have no reason to sugar coat things when talking with them.
I am also not speaking for
everyone
, in fact, I am not speaking
for
anyone
. I am speaking as a
concerned citizen
...one who has the benefit of hindsight and experience.
I've never said and never heard anyone say it was 100% chance of working. Nothing is definate. You've been against it and been calling it a quagmire 2 weeks into it, you went into it with a preconcieved notion.
That
is not true. I was
FOR
The
WOT
, and I
still
am. I have never said I wasn't, and I have never set a timeline of
2 weeks
for
any
successful wartime operations, in the WOT. Shit man... It takes longer than that to field a (Battle-Group) or "Task Force" - and
get it over there
. I never said such a thing. I never evenÂ
thought
such a thing.
What
IÂ have said,
from the beginning
is that Iraq was NOTthe place to get involved or boggedÂ
down in. It has always appeared to me to be
a useless excersize of futility, which has cost us the lives of hundreds ofÂ
young men and women, giving their lives,
to thatcause. These are, for the most part, men and women who signed up as patriotic Americans after 9-11, only to be sent to Iraq, something they NEVERbargained for and which we now cannot get OUT of...Mainly because of GDubbya's religious-hubris. THAT, is a double standard.... Sometimes also called, "Bait and Switch".
IRAQ, to me, is a sideshow made into a quagmire by the sheer stupidity of going IN there, and I am against it because Gdubbya got us IN there based on lies and false assumptions which even he knew were most likely, false. I have watched with a historical horror as the same failed policies of the Vietnam Era have been pursued there, and it gets worse and worse and worse, but NEVER gets better. You guys all SAYit will
get better
, but it does NOT...ever.
Because of his divergence from the WOT, Al Quida and the Taliban are BOTH stronger than they were a year ago, the war in IRAQÂ
goes on and becomes more dangerous all the time, and Bin Laden, is
STILL
at large.
That is not a notion...it is a fact.
[Edited by on Nov 24, 2004 at 04:25am.]
The average annual base salaryof a U.S. Postal Service letter carrier was $40,221 in 2001.
I'd be happy to cut postal salaries to pay for military salaries.
Because of his divergence from the WOT, Al Quida and the Taliban are BOTH stronger than they were a year ago,
And your proof to back this up would be?
No, I have consistentlypointed to media infoand failed missionsand bad policy/i
mplimentationswhich I have then posted and commented on, which to me, seem to be based on facts.
And I am basing it on what I hear from people there. The media only reports the bad things. I understand a plane landing is not news and one crashing is. But there's been no semblance of balance. Of course nobody wants to go. Who would. But the fact is that they still beleive they are making progress based on what they see with their own eyes. As Friedman said when they stop believing it then we have problems and they haven't.
I have never set a timeline of 2 weeks for anysuccessful wartime operations, in the WOT. Shit man... It takes longer than that to field a (Battle-Group) or "Task Force" - and get it over there. I never said such a thing. I never even thought such a thing.
Really? Well Bill here's what you were saying one and a half weeks into the war.
'Bill - Fold' "The war in Iraq" 3/26/03 3:18am
I HATE this war, and I don't much care for Gen. Franks "strategy" either,("Stormin Norman" and/or Colin Powell would have been in Baghdad by now, and possibly even WON by now)
Hmmm.
What was that about you saying about timelines and never thinking such a thing? You were against it from the start and criticized it less than 2 weeks into it.
I have never set a timeline of 2 weeks for anysuccessful wartime operations,Â
in the WOT.
Â
(Please notice LUV... I said the WOT... got it now?)
 Shit man... It takes longer than that to field a (Battle-Group) or "Task Force" - and get it over there. I never said such a thing. I never even thought such a thing.
Really? Well Bill here's what you were saying one and a half weeks into the war.
Into the War in IRAQ.
I have
NEVER
been FOR the Iraq War and I fully admit to that, but thanks for reminding me. My comments on
Franks
and others involved in THAT war, have been proven correct anyway. They HAVE failed there, and Gdubbya has LED that failed effort. That is NOT news anymore.
I have said many times that we do not haveenough forces to do the job, and I have been proven correct every fucking time. Everyone EXCEPT Rumsfeld and his closest Generals/Aides, have said exactly the same thing, including some of his own Generals on the ground there...
It is NOT going well,
after which they are, for the most part, dismissed.
Except for the General who ran the prisons in Iraq and in Gitmo, 2002-2004...Hehas been Promoted and is now at The Pentagon!
Now that is surely NOT "Positive", but it is the Truth. You don't like the truth about the absolute futility of IRAQ, so I guess you expect some Sunshine to be blown up your ass, and then you'll call it "Positive".
Try Townhall.Com. They do a Magnificent Jobof Blowing Sunshine up peoples asses.
To say there aren't any "Positive" stories, or even that there are very few, is
LUDICROUS
. I can go get 10 stories posted todayby various American News Sources, ALLpositive, as anyone can. Perhaps it is time
YOU
 re-evaluated your
reading materials
...
That statement, was absolute Crap.
[Edited 2 times. Most recently by on Nov 25, 2004 at 04:39am.]
Biloxi Sun Herald
November 25, 2004
Cooking for 30 hungry sailors means Katherine and Walter Blessey will smoke five turkeys and three prime ribs. A quiet Thanksgiving they will not have. But the Biloxi couple will send a family friend and his unit off to the Middle East with a pleasant memory, full stomachs and the happiness of having spent the holiday with family.
"(The unit) thought they were just going to go to a casino for Thanksgiving," said James Lapeyrouse, 34, of Houston, a Navymedical technician who will likely miss the birth of his first child while he's in the Middle East. Lapeyrouse graduated from high school with the Blesseys' son, John, in Houston. An insurance adjuster in civilian life, his Naval Reserve medical unit from Houston will soon head for Kuwait, where they will spend a year caring for soldiers and Marines wounded in Iraq.
The Blesseys had planned to go to Atlanta for Thanksgiving. We thought it would be good to give (Lapeyrouse) and his unit a send-off," said Walter, who remembers a lonely holiday season in Vietnam during 1965. The reservists appreciate the gesture. "I feel their spirit and share the same ideals," said Petty Officer First Class Joel Diaz, who on Wednesday helped the Blesseys prepare for the feast.
The Blesseys love entertaining and cooking together.
"We just enjoy doing this," said Katherine Blessey. "It's not work for us. Walter's and my life is filled with gratitude." The Reservists are training at the Naval Construction Battalion Center in Gulfport and expect to leave soon for the Middle East. By operating a hospital in Kuwait, they will provide closer care for wounded troops now flown to Germany. For the next year, Lapeyrouse and his unit will eat mostly in military-style chow halls. The memory of today's meal could haunt them.
Said Lapeyrouse, who already sounded hungry, "Every time I come to town, (Walter) has barbecue shrimp that's incredible."
That's just ONE "Postive" Story to be GLAD for today, Thanksgiving.
I only wish that the young Troops coming HOME from the WOT got this kind of reception when they come
BACK
, which as a rule they Do NOT. I wonder...
where
are all their parades??? Why don't you go out and schedule one...just ONE.
Â
There are huge receptions every day at DFW airport for both outgoing and incoming troops. I doubt that it's the only place in the country where that is going on.
Happy Thanksgiving to all those in the military that are away from their families at this time.
God bless you all.
Yea it's nothing.
Heh-Heh. For some reason, i'm STILL under Fold's skin.
Â
You know, Bill, I remember seeing that center at MSP. I was always glad that it was there for them. I have seen so many thoughtful things done by individuals and groups for the soldiers.
I remember what you're talking about, during the Vietnam War. I was very anti-war then and was active in the movement in the beginning. But when they started mistreating soldiers, burning the American flag and flying the North Vietnam flag, I quit in disgust. I have NEVER understood the attitude of blaming the troops.
Let me know if you see or get anything going in the Twin Cities, at the airport or elsewhere. I know a lot of people up there who would love to get involved.
I suppose so...! But what
could
you say to someone calling from there? Bummer...  At least he is alive and well,
and he called
. Pretty cool Thanksgiving "Treat". I remember when my own brother called home in 1968, from DaNang. It was wierd.... "Hi, how are you guys...
OVER
"? All the calls back then were on short-wave and it was a hassle, but worth it if you were lonely for
mom
, and
apple pie
...?
I called the Vet-Center yesterday, and they gave me the name of someone else to call on Monday, at their main offices out there.
I'll let you know
.
[Edited by on Nov 27, 2004 at 03:15am.]
I never said you aided and abetted the enemy, never. Find it and post it. Play the victim.
And you know that, because? Don't speak for the troops who are In Countryand CANNOT LEAVE...OK?
But it's o.k for you to speak for them? Hmm, nice double standard.
I'm not speaking for everyone there only people I have talked to. I trust them and they have no reason to sugar coat things when talking with them.
I've never said and never heard anyone say it was 100% chance of working. Nothing is definate. You've been against it and been calling it a quagmire 2 weeks into it, you went into it with a preconcieved notion. What does bother me is the media's failure to recognize some amazing progress by our men and women in uniform. Some of what they've done is astounding. It's also amazing that out of all the acts of heroism and bravery what's the one soldier people know? Lindie England the cigarette smoking midget from Abu Grihab after that people draw a blank. I'm not saying it's perfect, nobody I know of says it is. But what they and I do say is that it's worth trying and that leaving now would be disastorous and they believe they are making progress and can succeed.
Â
Â
Â
[Edited 3 times. Most recently by on Nov 23, 2004 at 08:40am.]
The Rat's Ideas for Supporting the Troops:
Park the snowmobile this winter, jetski in the summer. Get some exercise outdoors instead. Public transportation three days a week to work. Think about carpooling.
Shovel the snow from your driveways and sidewalks.
Admit that oil is a component in this war, whether the Bush Adminstration tells you so or not.
That way, this could be the last conflict the troops have to fight like this. Maybe a similar one against China or India in 30 ro 40 years won't have to happen. That one you really don't want to fight.
And our natural resources could remain unspoiled.
[Edited 4 times. Most recently by on Nov 27, 2004 at 05:14pm.]
So the words "support the troops", are meaningless. However, they secretly mean, vote for Bush and not Kerry.
Fuck that!!! But oh so typical coming from a bitter, partisan, liberal, anything at any cost for the party, hack.
I'll have to go look for "don't support the troops" ribbons. I'll contact the MN-DFL Party on Monday.
Â
Obviously the Rat has never ridden a sled or jetski hard for any length of time. If he had actually bothered, he would know, it IS a workout.
Public transportation or carpooling? Doesn't exist where I live.
Shovel the driveway? Sure, come on up. The Rat can do all 400 feet. Be my guest.
Oil is a component of this war? It's been 20 months, where is it???
Those ribbons ARE now meaningless, and especially when there are 3 or 4 on the same car...Â
 E
xcept to those who may
have a son or daughter or brother or sister,
over there
. It is almost like... if you do not have
one on your car, you are somehow
against
those who do.
I have a Blue-Ribbonon my bumper which says
"
Bring Home Our Troops
". You can get them online:
http://www.troopsribbon.com/
If you dare, that is.
Â