Iraq's insurgency counts consist of more than 200,000 active fighters and sympathisers. Most of this revolt has been waged by Sunni Muslims. We're talking about 40,000 hardcore fighters and the number grows to that 200,000 members when you start counting part-time fighters and volunteers who provide rebels everything from intelligence and logistics to shelter.
A large part of this rebel backing occurs in the provinces of Baghdad, Babel, Salahuddin, Diyala, Nineveh and Tamim all homes to Sunni Arabs who fear they will lose influence after the elections. It's obvious that the a resurgent Baath party is the key to the insurgency's might. The Baath has split into three factions, with the deadliest being the branch still paying allegiance Saddam Hussein. You also have operating out of Syria, Saddam's half-brother Sabawi Ibrahim al-Hassan and former aide Mohamed Yunis al-Ahmed who are all providing funding and tapping their connections to old army divisions, particularily in Mosul, Samarra, Baquba, Kirkuk and Tikrit. Saddam's henchman, Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri, still on the lam in Iraq, is also involved. The Baath are complemented by Islamist factions ranging from Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's al-Qaeda affiliate to Ansar al-Sunna and Ansar al-Islam.
Evidence is mounting that America's war in Iraq has killed tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians, and perhaps well over 100,000. Yet this carnage is systematically ignored in the United States, where the media and government portray a war in which there are no civilian deaths, because there are no Iraqi civilians, only insurgents.
American behavior and self-perceptions reveal the ease with which a civilized country can engage in large-scale killing of civilians without public discussion.
The breakdown of the total number of civilians killed during the invasion of Iraq is as follows (Please note that the names underneath represent that of 14 Governorates, excluding Iraqi Kurdistan):
The above figures were the actual civilian deaths killed violently since the beginning of the invasion of Iraq in March this year and until the middle of June (including those killed after the fall of Saddam’s regime and who in a way of another caught between gunfire of the US troops and the Iraqi resistance).
Due to the absence in Iraq (with the exception of the Kurdish area) of functional communication systems with the outside World, our party headquarter in Baghdad tried to send me a fully comprehensive and detailed report by fax from Al-Sulaymaniyah (a Kurdish area). However, by crossing to the Kurdish area, the Kurdish “Peshmarga” searched the person carrying that report which was found with him and confiscated. According, he was handed over to the American troops where he was arrested and no one knows yet of his whereabouts.
This incident clearly indicates that the US Army does not want the truth of the civilian casualties made public.
UK foreign secretary Jack Straw said his government would examine the findings "with very great care".
But he told BBC's Today that another independent estimate of civilian deaths was around 15,000.
The Iraq Body Count, a respected database run by a group of academics and peace activists, has put the number of reported civilian deaths at between 14,000-16,000.
Iraq Body Count: 14-16,000 Brookings Inst: 10-27,000 UK foreign secretary: >10,000 People's Kifah >37,000 Lancet: >100,000
An estimated 100,000 civilians have died in Iraq as a direct or indirect consequence of the March 2003 United States-led invasion, according to a new study by a research team at the Bloomberg School of Public Health at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore.
the claim in the report in the respected British medical journal Lancet that the number of Iraqi civilians killed since the U.S. invasion may number as many as 98,000 rated hardly a mention even in news outlets that had been relatively critical of the war. The Lancet study, of course, was a scientific guesstimate based on incomplete data — the U.S. and its coalition partners have never kept a record of Iraqi civilian deaths. The Economist recently provided its own, more conservative estimate: 40,000 civilians dead.
A significantly lower total is reported by the organization Iraq Bodycount, which has tabulated news reports that show a total of around 15,000 civilian casualties since the war began.
Every freedom is forced in a way Crabs. There were people in the US that wanted to stay under British rule. We fought a civil war over it as well. The majority want elections and their own government. These are Iraqis running for office the way you or I would. We are essentially the police force right now until they get on their feet but the government will be thier own. If the day after the elections they ask us to leave we should and have heard our leaders say we would. Â
Or just like the terrorists coming over here. They want to change the way we live. If it's wrong for them, why is it right for us?
That's the problem, there's no point in trying to be rational with someone who would cut off aid workers heads. There's also no point in trying to discuss anything with someone who can morally equate that with what we are doing.
AMMAN (AFP) - More than 93,000 Iraqis living abroad have registered to vote in their country's crucial January 30 elections, the International Organisation for Migration tasked with the expatriate vote said.\09
Continued registrations on the fourth day of the week-long process, "brings the total number of registrants to 93,847," the IOM said.
On Thursday, the Geneva-based organisation said opening hours in registration centres in 14 participating countries had been extended by two hours as the process struggled to attract participants.
The IOM expects up to a million Iraqi expatriates to register for the January 28-30 election for a transitional 275-seat national assembly tasked with drawing up a new constitution.
Voting will take place in Australia, Britain, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Iran, the Netherlands, Sweden, Syria, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, United States and Jordan.
These must be those people we're forcing freedom on that Crabgrass was talking about.
By the way Crabs.... I gave you some names.... or did you just want to ignore those?
BTW, you didn't address my question about what they have to do with if Iraqis want to vote.
These must be those people we're forcing freedom on that Crabgrass was talking about.
They live in an occupied country, a country occupied by people who have just bombed the shit out of them. A country that has had thousands of innocent people killed by those bombs. Some choice.
A videotape posted on an Islamist Web site apparently shows two men standing on a sidewalk -- blindfolded, with their hands bound behind their backs -- in front of a banner with the name "al Qaeda in Iraq" in Arabic. Minutes later, the men were beheaded as punishment for delivering food to a U.S. military base.
BTW, you didn't address my question about what they have to do with if Iraqis want to vote.
yes I did -
Sunni Arabs who fear they will lose influence after the elections.
You also failed to reconize the fact that they do have names, they do know who these people are and they have said out right what their purpose is.
They live in an occupied country, a country occupied by people who have just bombed the shit out of them. A country that has had thousands of innocent people killed by those bombs. Some choice.
Do you ever read what people say here Crabs? I mean you didn't even read what was stated there.... either that or you are just showing your true colors
"More than 93,000 Iraqis living abroad" - This phase means Iraqis NOT living in IRAQ.
Iraqi expatriates - This one refers to people having left the country under it's former ruler.
None of these people were bombed. They are Iraqis who left the country when Saddam was in power. Now they have a choice to vote.. and it seems they are making that choice.
On their own.
[Edited 2 times. Most recently by on Jan 21, 2005 at 07:54pm.]
They live in an occupied country, a country occupied by people who have just bombed the shit out of them. A country that has had thousands of innocent people killed by those bombs. Some choice.
...Saad Algharabi, 31, drove nine hours in a van with his family, including two infants, from Jacksonville, Fla., to get to Nashville.
"I would drive 10 hours, 20 hours - I would drive to California - to have my vote counted for once," Mr. Algharabi, who came to this country from Iraq nine years ago, said as he waited in 20-degree temperatures outside the basketball court where Iraqis were registering. "This vote is worth more to me than any drive."Â ... http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/18/national/18absentee.html
And to think, some here say they were disenfranchised because they had to wait in line for an hour.
Evidence is mounting that America's war in Iraq has killed tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians, and perhaps well over 100,000. Yet this carnage is systematically ignored in the United States, where the media and government portray a war in which there are no civilian deaths, because there are no Iraqi civilians, only insurgents.
'Perhaps' well over 100,000... ' Who is portraying that there are no civilian casulaties??? I for one am not... And who the hell said that there are no Iraqi civilians, only insujrgents... sounds like a personal statement assumed by the author of that article...
The above figures were the actual civilian deaths killed violently since the beginning of the invasion of Iraq
I would not be doing this post any justice if I did not include the statement where it was quoted 'the actual civilian deaths'... but how can they have actual figures, when no one else can givce actual figures??
he told BBC's Today that another independent estimate of civilian deaths was around 15,000.
'Was around' 15000...
The Iraq Body Count, a respected database run by a group of academics and peace activists, has put the number of reported civilian deaths at between 14,000-16,000.
See, I am playing fair, and allowing you both sides of the story by showing yet another exazmple of your showing something close to an 'actual' number of civilian deaths
An estimated 100,000 civilians have died in Iraq as a direct or indirect consequence of the March 2003 United States-led invasion,
'estimated 100,000 civilians'.... wow... who taught them how to estimate? They differ significantly from the other posts here.... hmmmmm
the number of Iraqi civilians killed since the U.S. invasion may number as many as 98,000
'may number' did they guess??
more conservative estimate: 40,000 civilians dead.
Need I go on???
But the big question is.... who killed them. Give me a breakdown of how many were killed by coalition forces, versus whatever term you choose to dignify the terroristic insurgency in Iraq. Also... How many did Saddam kill, or would have killed had he remained in power? How many lives would he have ruined by the fear of death or torturous acts? How many lives would have been destroyed by being tortured, or families would have been harmed by family members being killed, tortured, or both???
You want us to look at the big picture??? I am furiously trying to see your side, but if you can dish it out... you gotta take it as well. Try hard to see my side, and I will respect you all the better...
Look at all of the lives made better by him being gone. It is too late now to be arguing about what should have been done 3 years ago.... Let's worry about what is going on right now, and how to make it better in the future, "fix our mistake" as you would most likely put it.
Then we help them achieve the government of their choice. We are here to help aid them along... Lend a helping hand, to get them back on their feet....Wait a minute... Didn't Luv2Fly mention that already???
I haven't defended anyone
Least of all the Iraqi people... That is my job as an infidelic, war mongering, humanity loving, selfless serving, United States Soldier.
If I am wrong in being here, tell me what I have done. I have the honor and priviledge to serve the wonderful people of Iraq. And with that service, I along with every other American soldier here, have the following obligations: Loyalty,--I am loyal to not only my country, but to the Iraqi people in making sure that they are taken care of and protected to the best of my ability Duty,--It is my duty to treat all Iraqis with the respect and help that they both need and deserve Respect,--I respect the Iraqi people for their beliefs, and courage to stand up and fight back for themselves, against those who want to control and take advantage of their fragile situation Selfless-Service,--Wanna tell me what great personal gain that I am receiving from being here? (leaving my loved ones for one???) I have no stocks in oil, I have no land here, I have no other reason to be here other than the reasons listed above Honor,--I have the duty of providing honorable service to both the United States and the New Government of Iraq, as well as the Iraqi people themselves Integrity--I will do the right thing to the absolute...did you hear that??ABSOLUTE BEST OF MY ABILITY... regardless of who is watching Personal Courage,--I believe that my being here is prioritized over my fear of the IED's, Car bombs, suicide...scratch that...HOMICIDE BOMBERS, and other terroristic threats and actions being carried out by the insurgents(to be put politely) who not only want to harm my fellow troops and myself, but also the Iraqi People. I will do that every day, for the entire 20 months or so of my deployment. Bar none.
Where, in that which I have stated above does it say that I am going to go out of my way to kill innocent civilians??? I would have to imagine that the reckless placement of roadside bombs, and ied's would kill far more innocents, than have been killed willingly by the coalition forces...(of which I doubt very much that there are many)
For another frame of reference... how about the soldiers code: 1-I am an American Soldier - a protector of the greatest nation on earth -sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States. 2-I will treat others with dignity and respect and expect others to do the same. 3-I will honor my Country, the Army, my unit and my fellow soldiers by living the Army values. 4-No matter what situation I am in, I will never do anything for pleasure, profit or personal safety which will disgrace my uniform, my unit, or my Country. 5-Lastly, I am proud of my Country and it's flag. I want to look back and say I am proud to have served my Country as a soldier.
Where, again, does it say to kill civilians for kicks???
Along with the pledge of allegiance, I say these every morning. I do my utmost to follow these "codes of conduct". And I know that the vast majority of American soldiers here feel the same way.
And, I know that Abu Ghraib will again be brought up here... All that I can say is that those who perpetrated those acts were wrong, and by far do not show the true side of the vast majority of coalition forces in Iraq today.
All that I can say is try and understand from both sides of the coin. What most people are lacking back home is an understanding of the major differences in culture, that the media seems to have ignored. Some politicians as well.
My just being here makes me no expert on this issue, but I believe that I have a much needed different perspective that I can add to this thread. Argue any points that I place with me. I am up for that. Ususally I post, and it gets quiet... If you feel that I have not gotten accurate information, show me why I am wrong. Prove to me to the best of your ability why I am misunderstood. Which is what it all boils down to. There are very few wrongs on this forum, mainly misunderstandings.
If I am wrong in being here, tell me what I have done.
Hey Z, I think that I warned you when you first got here that nobody really blames the soldiers and not to take it that way. Sometimes it looks like that in the heat of discussion and sometimes it is used as a way of making one side or the other look bad.Â
I believe that is the case with the Abu Ghraib mess. It becomes more of a Bush bash than simply admitting that some mistakes were made and those responsible have already been charged with crimes and found guilty with punishment being administered. That is where the real difference is between Saddam and us, we punish these people, not reward them.
Also, if Fold says he will be there to greet you when you come home, I believe he will do it. We disagree a lot on these boards, but I do have respect for him and what he does for our veterans.Â
Crabs on the other hand.....no seriously, I think he will be glad when you are finally home also. He will be disappointed that he will no longer be able to use this as a way of attacking all things republican/conservative/mostly Bush. I do not believe that he thinks you commit those crimes or that it is a way for you to get your kicks. It is just the bashing coming out of him.
but I believe that I have a much needed different perspective that I can add to this thread.
Much needed is an understatement. We sit here and bicker back and forth based on our political beliefs, but we honestly do not know what is actually going on over there. We only know what we are told by politicians on both sides and what the papers and news channels think we should know. All these information sources seem to have their own agenda one way or the other. It is one of the wonders of the internet to be able to have a non-political view from someone who is actually there day in and day out. We thank you for that and please do not stop posting to us.
I do my utmost to follow these "codes of conduct". And I know that the vast majority of American soldiers here feel the same way.
That is why we (your family) and we (Americans) are so proud of you.
But the more immediate result has been to create a new rallying point for Islamic fundamentalists.
The good thing is, is that they can rally where our troops can get them. The bad thing is , is that they can rally where they can get our troops.
I feel bad that the Iraqi people have to sit at home and live through the middle of this.... There is a lot going on in Baghdad right now, I am sure you have heard. All I can say for now...
The good thing is, is that they can rally where our troops can get them. The bad thing is , is that they can rally where they can get our troops.
That has always been my attitude. It is better, in my opinion, that they rally and fight our trained troops that have night vision, etc., than to have them rallying here to attack our unarmed, unexpecting civilians.
There you go Fold. Since it sounds like you have investigated this already, maybe you could be in charge of the how, when, where of it and we will just tag along with you? Do you feel like taking on that responsibility?
I see in the reports that those who do not want the freedom to vote are stepping up the violence. I hope they fail to keep people away from voting booths. Here in U.S., some Iraqi's are voting and celebrating about it.
Here in U.S., some Iraqi's are voting and celebrating about it.
They are cheering for being able to vote(?) I presume... there were (the last time I heard about it) over 93000 Iraqi's from outside the country registered to vote...
Iraq's insurgency counts consist of more than 200,000 active fighters and sympathisers. Most of this revolt has been waged by Sunni Muslims. We're talking about 40,000 hardcore fighters and the number grows to that 200,000 members when you start counting part-time fighters and volunteers who provide rebels everything from intelligence and logistics to shelter.
A large part of this rebel backing occurs in the provinces of Baghdad, Babel, Salahuddin, Diyala, Nineveh and Tamim all homes to Sunni Arabs who fear they will lose influence after the elections. It's obvious that the a resurgent Baath party is the key to the insurgency's might. The Baath has split into three factions, with the deadliest being the branch still paying allegiance Saddam Hussein. You also have operating out of Syria, Saddam's half-brother Sabawi Ibrahim al-Hassan and former aide Mohamed Yunis al-Ahmed who are all providing funding and tapping their connections to old army divisions, particularily in Mosul, Samarra, Baquba, Kirkuk and Tikrit. Saddam's henchman, Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri, still on the lam in Iraq, is also involved. The Baath are complemented by Islamist factions ranging from Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's al-Qaeda affiliate to Ansar al-Sunna and Ansar al-Islam.
Crabs, where did you get the 15,000 number? Just curious.
Iraq's civilian dead get no hearing in the United States
Civilian War Deaths in Iraq
Baghdad 6103
Mosul 2009
Basrah 6734
Nasiriyah 3581
Diwaniyah 1567
Kut 2494
Hillah 3552
Karbala (including Najaf) 2263
Samawah 659
Amarah 2741
Ramadi 2172
Kerkuk 861
Diyalah 604
Tikrit 1797
Civilian death toll in Iraq exceeds 100,000
Iraq death toll 'soared post-war'
Iraq Body Count: 14-16,000
Brookings Inst: 10-27,000
UK foreign secretary: >10,000
People's Kifah >37,000
Lancet: >100,000
Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Surveys pointing to high civilian death toll in Iraq
More Iraq civilian deaths seen in study
Study Puts Iraqi Deaths of Civilians at 100,000
Iraq Civilian Casualties? Who Knew?
Does America prefer its media to ignore deaths caused by U.S. actions?
[Edited by molegrass on Jan 21, 2005 at 09:37am.]
Yep just like the Chinese coming over here.
And forcing us to have free elections. You are getting it now Luv.
Or just like the terrorists coming over here. They want to change the way we live. If it's wrong for them, why is it right for us?
[Edited by molegrass on Jan 21, 2005 at 09:58am.]
forced freedom.
nice oxymoron.
Every freedom is forced in a way Crabs. There were people in the US that wanted to stay under British rule. We fought a civil war over it as well. The majority want elections and their own government. These are Iraqis running for office the way you or I would. We are essentially the police force right now until they get on their feet but the government will be thier own. If the day after the elections they ask us to leave we should and have heard our leaders say we would. Â
Or just like the terrorists coming over here. They want to change the way we live. If it's wrong for them, why is it right for us?
That's the problem, there's no point in trying to be rational with someone who would cut off aid workers heads. There's also no point in trying to discuss anything with someone who can morally equate that with what we are doing.
By the way Crabs.... I gave you some names.... or did you just want to ignore those?
Or just like the terrorists coming over here. They want to change the way we live. If it's wrong for them, why is it right for us?
Only a person without a moral compass can ask such a question.
then those that claim to have one of these so called moral compasses should be able to answer it. so. what's the answer?
AMMAN (AFP) - More than 93,000 Iraqis living abroad have registered to vote in their country's crucial January 30 elections, the International Organisation for Migration tasked with the expatriate vote said.\09
Continued registrations on the fourth day of the week-long process, "brings the total number of registrants to 93,847," the IOM said.
On Thursday, the Geneva-based organisation said opening hours in registration centres in 14 participating countries had been extended by two hours as the process struggled to attract participants.
The IOM expects up to a million Iraqi expatriates to register for the January 28-30 election for a transitional 275-seat national assembly tasked with drawing up a new constitution.
Voting will take place in Australia, Britain, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Iran, the Netherlands, Sweden, Syria, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, United States and Jordan.
These must be those people we're forcing freedom on that Crabgrass was talking about.
[Edited by on Jan 21, 2005 at 01:18pm.]
then those that claim to have one of these so called moral compasses should be able to answer it. so. what's the answer?
BTW, you didn't address my question about what they have to do with if Iraqis want to vote.
They live in an occupied country, a country occupied by people who have just bombed the shit out of them. A country that has had thousands of innocent people killed by those bombs. Some choice.
and if they don't choose democracy?
We killed innocent people.
We have a long track record of "aiding" countries in setting up dictatorships.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/01/21/iraq.main/index.html
A videotape posted on an Islamist Web site apparently shows two men standing on a sidewalk -- blindfolded, with their hands bound behind their backs -- in front of a banner with the name "al Qaeda in Iraq" in Arabic. Minutes later, the men were beheaded as punishment for delivering food to a U.S. military base.
BTW, you didn't address my question about what they have to do with if Iraqis want to vote.
yes I did -
Sunni Arabs who fear they will lose influence after the elections.
You also failed to reconize the fact that they do have names, they do know who these people are and they have said out right what their purpose is.
They live in an occupied country, a country occupied by people who have just bombed the shit out of them. A country that has had thousands of innocent people killed by those bombs. Some choice.
Do you ever read what people say here Crabs? I mean you didn't even read what was stated there.... either that or you are just showing your true colors
"More than 93,000 Iraqis living abroad" - This phase means Iraqis NOT living in IRAQ.
Iraqi expatriates - This one refers to people having left the country under it's former ruler.
None of these people were bombed. They are Iraqis who left the country when Saddam was in power. Now they have a choice to vote.. and it seems they are making that choice.
On their own.
[Edited 2 times. Most recently by on Jan 21, 2005 at 07:54pm.]
crabhole will try to turn any positive into a negative.
I don't know. Maybe because you're an idiot?
They live in an occupied country, a country occupied by people who have just bombed the shit out of them. A country that has had thousands of innocent people killed by those bombs. Some choice.
And to think, some here say they were disenfranchised because they had to wait in line for an hour.
...Saad Algharabi, 31, drove nine hours in a van with his family, including two infants, from Jacksonville, Fla., to get to Nashville.
Crabgrass in case you didn't know it.... Nashville also isn't an occupied country nor has it just had the shit bombed out of them
Must be more of those people being forced to vote again.
[Edited by on Jan 21, 2005 at 09:50pm.]
I haven't defended anyone.
'Perhaps' well over 100,000...
' Who is portraying that there are no civilian casulaties??? I for one am not... And who the hell said that there are no Iraqi civilians, only insujrgents... sounds like a personal statement assumed by the author of that article...
I would not be doing this post any justice if I did not include the statement where it was quoted 'the actual civilian deaths'... but how can they have actual figures, when no one else can givce actual figures??
'Was around' 15000...
See, I am playing fair, and allowing you both sides of the story by showing yet another exazmple of your showing something close to an 'actual' number of civilian deaths
'estimated 100,000 civilians'.... wow... who taught them how to estimate? They differ significantly from the other posts here.... hmmmmm
'may number' did they guess??
Need I go on???
But the big question is.... who killed them. Give me a breakdown of how many were killed by coalition forces, versus whatever term you choose to dignify the terroristic insurgency in Iraq. Also... How many did Saddam kill, or would have killed had he remained in power? How many lives would he have ruined by the fear of death or torturous acts? How many lives would have been destroyed by being tortured, or families would have been harmed by family members being killed, tortured, or both???
You want us to look at the big picture??? I am furiously trying to see your side, but if you can dish it out... you gotta take it as well. Try hard to see my side, and I will respect you all the better...
Look at all of the lives made better by him being gone. It is too late now to be arguing about what should have been done 3 years ago.... Let's worry about what is going on right now, and how to make it better in the future, "fix our mistake" as you would most likely put it.
Have a sun-shiny beautiful day....
I haven't defended anyone.
And you haven't responded to my last two posts. :-)
Starting to see a pattern here. You bite of more then you can handle and try to walk away from it.
Then we help them achieve the government of their choice. We are here to help aid them along... Lend a helping hand, to get them back on their feet....Wait a minute... Didn't Luv2Fly mention that already???
Least of all the Iraqi people... That is my job as an infidelic, war mongering, humanity loving, selfless serving, United States Soldier.
If I am wrong in being here, tell me what I have done. I have the honor and priviledge to serve the wonderful people of Iraq. And with that service, I along with every other American soldier here, have the following obligations:
Loyalty,--I am loyal to not only my country, but to the Iraqi people in making sure that they are taken care of and protected to the best of my ability
Duty,--It is my duty to treat all Iraqis with the respect and help that they both need and deserve
Respect,--I respect the Iraqi people for their beliefs, and courage to stand up and fight back for themselves, against those who want to control and take advantage of their fragile situation Selfless-Service,--Wanna tell me what great personal gain that I am receiving from being here? (leaving my loved ones for one???) I have no stocks in oil, I have no land here, I have no other reason to be here other than the reasons listed above
Honor,--I have the duty of providing honorable service to both the United States and the New Government of Iraq, as well as the Iraqi people themselves
Integrity--I will do the right thing to the absolute...did you hear that??ABSOLUTE BEST OF MY ABILITY... regardless of who is watching
Personal Courage,--I believe that my being here is prioritized over my fear of the IED's, Car bombs, suicide...scratch that...HOMICIDE BOMBERS, and other terroristic threats and actions being carried out by the insurgents(to be put politely) who not only want to harm my fellow troops and myself, but also the Iraqi People. I will do that every day, for the entire 20 months or so of my deployment. Bar none.
Where, in that which I have stated above does it say that I am going to go out of my way to kill innocent civilians??? I would have to imagine that the reckless placement of roadside bombs, and ied's would kill far more innocents, than have been killed willingly by the coalition forces...(of which I doubt very much that there are many)
For another frame of reference... how about the soldiers code:
1-I am an American Soldier - a protector of the greatest nation on earth -sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States.
2-I will treat others with dignity and respect and expect others to do the same.
3-I will honor my Country, the Army, my unit and my fellow soldiers by living the Army values.
4-No matter what situation I am in, I will never do anything for pleasure, profit or personal safety which will disgrace my uniform, my unit, or my Country.
5-Lastly, I am proud of my Country and it's flag. I want to look back and say I am proud to have served my Country as a soldier.
Where, again, does it say to kill civilians for kicks???
Along with the pledge of allegiance, I say these every morning. I do my utmost to follow these "codes of conduct". And I know that the vast majority of American soldiers here feel the same way.
And, I know that Abu Ghraib will again be brought up here... All that I can say is that those who perpetrated those acts were wrong, and by far do not show the true side of the vast majority of coalition forces in Iraq today.
A few bad apples will NOT spoil this bunch.
Good evening, and have a pleasant tomorrow.
Zeph, you are not wrong in being there.
Your service is honorable.
End of story.
All that I can say is try and understand from both sides of the coin. What most people are lacking back home is an understanding of the major differences in culture, that the media seems to have ignored. Some politicians as well.
My just being here makes me no expert on this issue, but I believe that I have a much needed different perspective that I can add to this thread. Argue any points that I place with me. I am up for that. Ususally I post, and it gets quiet... If you feel that I have not gotten accurate information, show me why I am wrong. Prove to me to the best of your ability why I am misunderstood. Which is what it all boils down to. There are very few wrongs on this forum, mainly misunderstandings.
Take care, and goodnight!
:) it is good for the soul:)
If I am wrong in being here, tell me what I have done.
Hey Z, I think that I warned you when you first got here that nobody really blames the soldiers and not to take it that way. Sometimes it looks like that in the heat of discussion and sometimes it is used as a way of making one side or the other look bad.Â
I believe that is the case with the Abu Ghraib mess. It becomes more of a Bush bash than simply admitting that some mistakes were made and those responsible have already been charged with crimes and found guilty with punishment being administered. That is where the real difference is between Saddam and us, we punish these people, not reward them.
Also, if Fold says he will be there to greet you when you come home, I believe he will do it. We disagree a lot on these boards, but I do have respect for him and what he does for our veterans.Â
Crabs on the other hand.....no seriously, I think he will be glad when you are finally home also. He will be disappointed that he will no longer be able to use this as a way of attacking all things republican/conservative/mostly Bush. I do not believe that he thinks you commit those crimes or that it is a way for you to get your kicks. It is just the bashing coming out of him.
but I believe that I have a much needed different perspective that I can add to this thread.
Much needed is an understatement. We sit here and bicker back and forth based on our political beliefs, but we honestly do not know what is actually going on over there. We only know what we are told by politicians on both sides and what the papers and news channels think we should know. All these information sources seem to have their own agenda one way or the other. It is one of the wonders of the internet to be able to have a non-political view from someone who is actually there day in and day out. We thank you for that and please do not stop posting to us.
I do my utmost to follow these "codes of conduct". And I know that the vast majority of American soldiers here feel the same way.
That is why we (your family) and we (Americans) are so proud of you.
It says right there, the government and the media are.
I still have the bridge, wanna buy it?
This isn't a response to my posts either.
And yet you fail to see the pattern of this administration.
After a few talks with Fold, I do believe that he will be there.
And if I buy that bridge, crabass, can I shove it up your grass??
A party... It will be party enough to walk on FREE land again.
oh, crabgrass...., post all you want... That's what I am doing here in Iraq. To ensure that the Iraqis can, too.
Count me in. It would be an honor.
me three (or four or five or whatever)
guess i don't see how anyone can argue with the soldiers. even if you don't believe in the war you have to support the troups.
http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2005/01/21/62860
now that i know better thanks to THX i thought i would put this on here so that more people could read it! support!!!
(hope it still works)
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/breaking2453389.0680555557.html
one more good read.
so many viewpoints.
[Edited by on Jan 24, 2005 at 07:23pm.]
Welcome to "In the News" Cocorosie.
Some day, when I get some decent bandwidth... I'll be able to read more of the news links!!
See ya!
The good thing is, is that they can rally where our troops can get them. The bad thing is , is that they can rally where they can get our troops.
I feel bad that the Iraqi people have to sit at home and live through the middle of this.... There is a lot going on in Baghdad right now, I am sure you have heard. All I can say for now...
The good thing is, is that they can rally where our troops can get them. The bad thing is , is that they can rally where they can get our troops.
That has always been my attitude. It is better, in my opinion, that they rally and fight our trained troops that have night vision, etc., than to have them rallying here to attack our unarmed, unexpecting civilians.
You know I'm there! And I would bet my life that most all the cooler crew will be there, it was actually already discussed.
There you go Fold. Since it sounds like you have investigated this already, maybe you could be in charge of the how, when, where of it and we will just tag along with you? Do you feel like taking on that responsibility?
Of course the Crew will be there :)... LL already said it... we've discussed it.
Keep us informed on this thread. I may be able to get up to Minne for it!
Muskwa, if no one else does, I will. But I don't think any of us will let that news pass without mention!
Thanks for the support....
OK....Let's get busy!!!
We have a war to fight, a nation to help get on it's feet, and a medallion to find... (so you won't see much of me over here for a while...)
What is going on in Iraq now???
What is going on in Iraq now???
That is what you are here for, to let us know.
I see in the reports that those who do not want the freedom to vote are stepping up the violence. I hope they fail to keep people away from voting booths. Here in U.S., some Iraqi's are voting and celebrating about it.
They are cheering for being able to vote(?) I presume... there were (the last time I heard about it) over 93000 Iraqi's from outside the country registered to vote...
And yes... The violence has stepped up here
They are cheering for being able to vote(?)
Yes. I saw on the news people clapping and making a big deal out of being able to vote. That is Iraqi's here in the U.S. voting for over there.
They are cheering for being able to vote(?)
Zeph some of them are driving hundreds of miles to polling places.
[Edited by on Jan 29, 2005 at 01:50am.]
[Edited by on Jan 29, 2005 at 01:51am.]