Thanks Scribe for the correct spelling of nieve. hehe  Even though kids brought up on MTV or whatever, because of lack of life experience, they are naive. At least, I was. MAybe still am.  JOE
It's this mentality that's allowed them to get away with it for so long. It's always the woman's fault. I'm really surprised that you buy into that Scribe. Do you really think that the rumors over the years haven't had some basis in fact?
I am a smart woman. I accept full responsibility for my actions and I expect the same high standards from ALL women. I will not accept that these women were stupid or naive.
To say that is resorting to sterotypical thoughts of women being unintelligent and victims.
Context in this situation is everything. All involved must accept full responsibility in their part.
That means the Vulcs and these women.
Rumors I disbelieve. Facts in context is where the truth lies.
I've been trying to give you facts without going into detail in a public forum and without naming names. I thought my reputation was enough for you to believe me. I guess I was wrong.
With the utmost respect to all in here, I wish there was a thread called THE BOXING RING. THen, when things heat up, that's where we go. THen, once in a while someone can go DING DING.   LOL   Â
Why would you ask me for details?? And when I won't give them you resort to some childish post about consulting your psychic advisor? I guess I don't know you very well either.
I don't think these women are weak or naive. But, I do think they were put in an awkward situation. One, you've got the excitement of the Vulcan tradition and the winter carnival. So that kind of makes you want to trust these guys and go along with the ritual. After all, everybody's initial reaction to the news was shock and disbelief. Also, it's been indicated that the girls' boss encouraged them to go along. And most of us want to make the boss happy.
In both situations, there were people who held power over these girls, whether it was power of an employer or the power of a legendary figure. And when this happens, coupled with a bar atmosphere, judgement can get clouded. Once the moment passed, the girls may have realized that what happened crossed a line.
I would like to think that young women these days know if someone tries to put a garter on their leg, especially someone they don't know, and ESPECIALLY someone they don't know who's in a disguise, that they know that something bad might happen.
I would also like to think that young women these days, unless restrained, which they were not, would kick a guy right in the family jewels if he tried a stunt like allegedly happened.
I would NEVER wear an outfit like that knowing full well that there are lots of perverts and idiots. Hell I wear normal clothes and get annoyed by plenty of perverts and idiots. It must be excruciating for them, but it's their choice. They put themselves in that position. And they also didn't defend themselves. They chose to sue. That's a chicken's way out.
OT has a very good reputation. Why would she lie about it? There are A LOT of nieve girls out there who don't know any better either that or get scared. What would YOU do in that situation? Kick their asses??? Yeah ok... give me a break!
That's pretty much an insult to any woman who's ever been accosted in that way. Until you've been in that situation, it's pretty hard to say what you'd do, or if you even realize what's happening until it's too late. The garter thing is a Vulcan ritual. Been going on for years. These women think it's harmless because it's been sanctioned by the Carnival. It's what they do.
Right, I understand that they're like okay, I'll do it. Hell, I'd probably do it, too. But if they touched me, I'd be like GET THE HELL OFF OF ME! Loud enough for other people to hear. Remember kindergarten? Yell and run away? EVERYONE knows that. Like they're going to continue touching her if she causes a fuss.
That's right. I can't. I can just say if it really did happen, they unfortunately put themselves in that situation. I know that sounds like, well that woman got raped because of what she wore. THAT'S WRONG. That is SO wrong. WRONG WRONG WRONG! BUT! It's a well known ritual. The Vulcs have a skanky rep. They went into it probably knowing something bad could happen. It did. The Vulcs shouldn't have done it. They're both guilty.
I would hope that women would quit if put in that situation. I don't know these women, you're right. They may have felt pressured, but again I don't think any job is worth being put in uncomfortable situations. I just think it's unfortunate that they would feel that going along with it would be better than just leaving.
I'd like to think that a job isn't that important to anyone.. but the fact of the matter is.. everyone is different... we know what we would do, we can say what we would do, but we can't decide for other people.. and it's just an unfortunate situation.
LOL well that's nice to know THX... but ya know what there's a lot of girls who WOULDN'T do anything because they would feel powerless... unless you've been in a situation like that.. you can't say squat about it!! Try putting yourself in the other person's shoes once!
I have no idea what the Vuls are all about...I've been to one parade since I've moved in '86 that year and all I remember is these guys dressed in red caps with googles with V's on their cheeks giving kids and ladies the sign of the v on their cheeks.
So, that is the extent of my knowledge of the vuls.
Scribe wanted me to give "facts in context". Didn't believe rumors. I wasn't going to go there. That's where I brought my reputation into it. I don't believe anyone here thinks I'm a liar. But then, what do I know. Nothing it seems.
I didn't say they were ALL bad... maybe it's just me but it seemed like you emplied that ALL women would just let them have their way... I know lots of vulks who wouldn't even DREAM about doing the crap that was done..but just because a woman doesn't put up a fight does NOT mean that she is condoning what's going on.
I jus think it's wrong to classify every woman as being powerless, nieve, and stupid, just like it would be wrong to classify every vulk as being a pervert. We all can sit here and speculate about how WE would or even THINK we would handle a situation like that... but we cannot by any means speak for anyone else.
Use my imagination?
Not very useful. Stay tuned while I consult my psychic advisor.
Thanks Scribe for the correct spelling of nieve. hehe  Even though kids brought up on MTV or whatever, because of lack of life experience, they are naive. At least, I was. MAybe still am. Â
JOE
[Edited by on Feb 11, 2005 at 07:01pm.]
Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree, OT.
It's this mentality that's allowed them to get away with it for so long. It's always the woman's fault. I'm really surprised that you buy into that Scribe. Do you really think that the rumors over the years haven't had some basis in fact?
You're both blind then. So sad. Now I understand why women won't stand up for themselves. This is exactly what they get.
You're both blind then. So sad. Now I understand why women won't stand up for themselves. This is exactly what they get.
Oh please.
It's now my fault that women don't stand up for themselves.
Screw that. You're convicting this guy (and me somehow) right off the bat.
I'm done with this conversation.
I am a smart woman. I accept full responsibility for my actions and I expect the same high standards from ALL women. I will not accept that these women were stupid or naive.
To say that is resorting to sterotypical thoughts of women being unintelligent and victims.
Context in this situation is everything. All involved must accept full responsibility in their part.
That means the Vulcs and these women.
Rumors I disbelieve. Facts in context is where the truth lies.
Â
[Edited by on Feb 11, 2005 at 07:08pm.]
I've been trying to give you facts without going into detail in a public forum and without naming names. I thought my reputation was enough for you to believe me. I guess I was wrong.
Â
Oh, I don't know if I said this, but if these guys are convicted, their balls should be nailed to the wall so to speak.
Your reputation as...a...medallion hunter?
I'm sorry, but I really don't know you that well that I would have an opinion on your reputation.
Not trying to insult you, just stating the facts of our relationship as I understand them.
With the utmost respect to all in here, I wish there was a thread called THE BOXING RING. THen, when things heat up, that's where we go. THen, once in a while someone can go DING DING.   LOL   Â
I'm gonna go play some Halo and kill some aliens.
Later folks.
Why would you ask me for details?? And when I won't give them you resort to some childish post about consulting your psychic advisor? I guess I don't know you very well either.
I don't even care anymore, FB. I guess I'm just too old for all this nonsense.Â
In all due respect. This is a debate.
This is not nor will be personal.
The most wonderful thing about free speech is the freedom to debate.
With that said. I can only resort to childish posts when a debate comes to "use your imaginantion".
It was not meant personally, only a colorful literary illustration.
[Edited 2 times. Most recently by on Feb 11, 2005 at 07:19pm.]
I don't think these women are weak or naive. But, I do think they were put in an awkward situation. One, you've got the excitement of the Vulcan tradition and the winter carnival. So that kind of makes you want to trust these guys and go along with the ritual. After all, everybody's initial reaction to the news was shock and disbelief.
Also, it's been indicated that the girls' boss encouraged them to go along. And most of us want to make the boss happy.
In both situations, there were people who held power over these girls, whether it was power of an employer or the power of a legendary figure. And when this happens, coupled with a bar atmosphere, judgement can get clouded. Once the moment passed, the girls may have realized that what happened crossed a line.
Thanks, Frosti. That's what I was trying to say.
ooohhh colorful illustrations! I like pictures!
That said, so THAT'S what happened to Miss Cleo! She's working for Scribe now.
Yes, I resort to childish posts often. It's just who I am.
I would like to think that young women these days know if someone tries to put a garter on their leg, especially someone they don't know, and ESPECIALLY someone they don't know who's in a disguise, that they know that something bad might happen.
I would also like to think that young women these days, unless restrained, which they were not, would kick a guy right in the family jewels if he tried a stunt like allegedly happened.
I would NEVER wear an outfit like that knowing full well that there are lots of perverts and idiots. Hell I wear normal clothes and get annoyed by plenty of perverts and idiots. It must be excruciating for them, but it's their choice. They put themselves in that position. And they also didn't defend themselves. They chose to sue. That's a chicken's way out.
OT has a very good reputation. Why would she lie about it? There are A LOT of nieve girls out there who don't know any better either that or get scared. What would YOU do in that situation? Kick their asses??? Yeah ok... give me a break!
That's pretty much an insult to any woman who's ever been accosted in that way. Until you've been in that situation, it's pretty hard to say what you'd do, or if you even realize what's happening until it's too late. The garter thing is a Vulcan ritual. Been going on for years. These women think it's harmless because it's been sanctioned by the Carnival. It's what they do.
Right, I understand that they're like okay, I'll do it. Hell, I'd probably do it, too. But if they touched me, I'd be like GET THE HELL OFF OF ME! Loud enough for other people to hear. Remember kindergarten? Yell and run away? EVERYONE knows that. Like they're going to continue touching her if she causes a fuss.
I'm not condoning what they did.
G hun... you're awesome and I totally respect you... but you can't speak for those other girls, you can only say what YOU would do!
But to question OT's reputation that a little too much.
Outta
So um... anyone happen to play that cool game Ian posted wayyyyy back in this thread?
Pretty cool if you ask me.
That's right. I can't. I can just say if it really did happen, they unfortunately put themselves in that situation. I know that sounds like, well that woman got raped because of what she wore. THAT'S WRONG. That is SO wrong. WRONG WRONG WRONG! BUT! It's a well known ritual. The Vulcs have a skanky rep. They went into it probably knowing something bad could happen. It did. The Vulcs shouldn't have done it. They're both guilty.
I never knew about that ritual until it was just brought up...
I would hope that women would quit if put in that situation. I don't know these women, you're right. They may have felt pressured, but again I don't think any job is worth being put in uncomfortable situations. I just think it's unfortunate that they would feel that going along with it would be better than just leaving.
[Edited by on Feb 11, 2005 at 07:52pm.]
I'd like to think that a job isn't that important to anyone.. but the fact of the matter is.. everyone is different... we know what we would do, we can say what we would do, but we can't decide for other people.. and it's just an unfortunate situation.
No girl in their right mind asks to be accosted.
JOE!
Outta
[Edited by on Feb 11, 2005 at 07:57pm.]
What would YOU do in that situation? Kick their asses??? Yeah ok... give me a break!
I know for a fact that Scribe would make them hurt like they've never hurt before.
btw: I killed lots of aliens.
WOOHOO! TAKE THAT ALIENS!
LOL well that's nice to know THX... but ya know what there's a lot of girls who WOULDN'T do anything because they would feel powerless... unless you've been in a situation like that.. you can't say squat about it!! Try putting yourself in the other person's shoes once!
I have no idea what the Vuls are all about...I've been to one parade since I've moved in '86 that year and all I remember is these guys dressed in red caps with googles with V's on their cheeks giving kids and ladies the sign of the v on their cheeks.
So, that is the extent of my knowledge of the vuls.
Outta
Scribe wanted me to give "facts in context". Didn't believe rumors. I wasn't going to go there. That's where I brought my reputation into it. I don't believe anyone here thinks I'm a liar. But then, what do I know. Nothing it seems.
"OT has a very good reputation. Why would she lie about it?"
First of all, I never brought up OT's reputation. She did and not in any detail. I only said I was ignorant of her reputation.
Lie about what?
Her reputation?
I made no statement whatsoever that I thought OT was being untruthful.
In fact I respect her opinion. I just adamently disagree with it.
unless you've been in a situation like that.. you can't say squat about it!
Once again, if you've never been a Vulc, you can't say squat!
I didn't say they were ALL bad... maybe it's just me but it seemed like you emplied that ALL women would just let them have their way... I know lots of vulks who wouldn't even DREAM about doing the crap that was done..but just because a woman doesn't put up a fight does NOT mean that she is condoning what's going on.
You said that you don't listen to rumors. Only facts in context. I have the facts. I assumed that might be enough. Again, I thought wrong.Â
Respectfully OT, I don't give credence to rumors.
Its bad policy in my experience.
Rumors spread misinformation and result in injustice.
[Edited by on Feb 11, 2005 at 08:16pm.]
this thread....
you dig?
it?
do a thigh tatoo on me once!
kind of strange but thats when father porter was a vulc so i was ok with it!
So you would believe me if I posted the dirty little details? Or would that just be a rumor?
I jus think it's wrong to classify every woman as being powerless, nieve, and stupid, just like it would be wrong to classify every vulk as being a pervert. We all can sit here and speculate about how WE would or even THINK we would handle a situation like that... but we cannot by any means speak for anyone else.
the ones of past altercations?? yeah i would beleive you - i have heard many wild ones form the late 70's and 80's
Yes. It would.
You simply stated that I didn't know your experience.
I was asking you to enlighten me on that perspective.
You opened that door. Otherwise I would not have asked.
Â
Well, don't leave the 90's out either. I have no personal knowledge of the 2000's though.
oe in honor of wayne gretzky - since we will have no hockey - all we will have is memories!
[Edited by on Feb 11, 2005 at 08:22pm.]
And as I said, I'm not about to post any details in an open forum. But they exist non the less.
JOE
[Edited by on Feb 11, 2005 at 08:23pm.]