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What harm does it do to see the 10 Commandments on a courthouse wall or on a statue? It reminds people of our basic laws. As you get older, you'll also see things you love rubbed away little by little. You'll also experience becoming insignificant. You'll maybe yearn like I do for tradition and history.Â
Â
<o:p>What would you say if the muslim Americans put something on Qoran and Hindu Americans put their Gita stuff infront of the courthouse. They have just as much right as you do.
</o:p>
<o:p>
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<o:p>If people don't like God, the foundation for our beginnings in this country, why do they come here? I don't go into someone else's house and tell them they need to stop a practice because it offends me...
</o:p>
<o:p>
</o:p>Â
<o:p>Strange how you and your friends conveniently forget who came to whose house and slaughtered millions to rule that land. May be you want to see some native American religious stuff along with Qoran, Gita, Falun Gong, Bahai and some Zhorastrian flame thingy displayed infron of the courthouse and one day everyone starts bickering and moaning.
</o:p>
What would you say if the muslim Americans put something on Qoran and Hindu Americans put their Gita stuff infront of the courthouse. They have just as much right as you doÂ
Since the 10 Commandments have been up long, long before I was born, I'm opposed to spending my tax dollars to remove them. What's the point? The 10 Commandments are NOT a religion, nor do they establish a religion.Â
The 10 Commandments are NOT a religion, nor do they establish a religion.ÂÂ
They are the tenenent of a particular Religion and from a particular book of a particular Religion.
To pretend otherwise is to be disingenuous.
What's the point?
We have explained the point at length and you have ignored it.
That something that was wrong was allowed to remain does not make it right. The State supported slavery and racism for a long time, but the claim "it's always been that way" does not make it right, no matter how long it was allowed State support.
Could you address why I should think they are a neccessarily good thing in the first place?
I wrote this...
I don't think it's a good idea to not work on Sunday because some God in some book says that day is His. It's no better idea than telling people they can't work on Tuesday and Thursday afternoons because that's when the man who lives under the sea likes to go sailing. It's neither a good nor a bad idea, it's just an attempt to get people to believe a certain religion. I don't want the State using our property or monies selling people that idea.
I don't think it's a good idea to honor your parents if they are mass murderers. Most anyone can have a child, that doesn't make them worthy of that child's honor. You want some child who was abused by their parents to have their State telling them they should honor those people?
I don't think it's a good idea to suggest that people shouldn't make graven images. I like art. And how come Churches have all those statues in them in the first place?
And when the State posts "Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me", how on earth do you get "freedom of religion" from that? Your book's words strictly forbid freedom of religion. I no more want our State stating in public that a Buddist or a Hindu or a Statanist or a... etc... shouldn't have their God than I want it telling you that you shouldn't have your God.
and you have ignored it.
Tell me why they are a good thing in the first place.
Did you work today? I did and a LOT of other people in my company did as well. Why is the State posting Commandments that tell all of us we are doing something wrong to have done so?
Why is the State posting something that tells an artist they shouldn't make sculptures?
[Edited 3 times. Most recently by molegrass on Feb 27, 2005 at 08:05pm.]
Remember folks, crabhole is the guy who thought it was perfectly fine for Hunter Thompson's 6 year old grandson to sit and watch his grandfather blow his brains out.
How can you possibly compare the 10 Commandments with slavery and racism? What freedom does the 10 C's take away from you?
The 10 C's were directed at the Jews in the Old Test.  Many faiths hold them as important. WHAT IS HARMFUL ABOUT SEEING GOOD RULES TO ABIDE BY IN A COURTHOUSE? Is it a reminder to you about how naughty you've been?
The Bible has 2 testaments: 1) OLD for Jews under LAW 2) NEW for all under GRACE
Which means, we do not have to adhere to the Jewish laws like Sabbath, nor do we have to sacrifice animals and so on... As an aside, many historians believe the Sabbath is Saturday. God wanted men to have a day to rest and not work like slaves...
The 10 C's are just basically good rules to live by. They don't include every possible disclaimer that we are so used to these days. Can you imagine how long the Bible would be if He said: "Honor your father and your mother, except if they hit you, except if they murder another, except if they..."?
I don't know where you get artwork confused with idol worshipping, but, if you bow and pray to your playdough statue of Barney, you might have a problem... I personally have a problem with religions who worship and pray to statues. I have a problem with religion period. I only look to the Bible for my information.
Who says you don't have freedom of religion? You're in this country arent you? That wouldn't have happened had it not been for our forefathers. The separation of church and state was a foundation of this country to keep government out of church matters, NOT the other way around. People came to this country to escape being told how they must practice/believe or not.
How can you possibly compare the 10 Commandments with slavery and racism?
I wasn't. I was comparing your reasoning that if the State had supported or tolerated the 10 Commandments for a long time, that was a reason to keep allowing them to do so. It's not.
The 10 C's were directed at the Jews in the Old Test.
This isn't the Old Testament times and we aren't all old Jews.
Which means, we do not have to adhere to the Jewish laws like Sabbath, nor do we have to sacrifice animals and so on...
So, it's the 9 good ideas and you can forget about the other one? Or is it eight or what?
The 10 C's are just basically good rules to live by. They don't include every possible disclaimer that we are so used to these days.
The word "Commandment" is an absolute. It doesn't say "The 10 Suggestions"
Can you imagine how long the Bible would be if He said
So, you are the one who decides what He really meant? That's mighty bold of you.
I don't know where you get artwork confused with idol worshipping
I don't know where you get "Thou Shalt Not Make Any Graven Images" confused with worshipping. It doesn't Command that it's okay to make them as long as you don't worship them. And who ae you to have our State tell me what I should or should not worship?
I only look to the Bible for my information.
Which version?
Who says you don't have freedom of religion?
Your Bible. Not our State. Keep them separate.
The separation of church and state was a foundation of this country to keep government out of church matters, NOT the other way around.ÂÂ
It works both ways.
People came to this country to escape being told how they must practice/believe or not.
That you have to say "how they are told...or not" shows that even you know this.
I'm very open minded. But, I've concluded after years of open mindedness, that this is what I believe. If I'm wrong, so what. I've lost nothing. If I'm right and you're wrong, you're going to Hell. I'd rather not take the chance.
Sheesh. They we're "commandments" for the Jews. Don't you think they are good basic rules to live by for everyone?Â
You know Crabby Cakes, you always sound so angry. Why is that?Â
He sent His son to die a horrible death to pay for your sins.  He doesn't want you to go to Hell. And, he gives you the free will to choose your fate.Â
Well, then we disagree. Our discussion overly simplifies the matter though and you're only getting a snapshot of God.
I think you did the same to me when I first showed up in here. You made a snap judgement of me and my character without even knowing me. You think I'm ignorant, etc. You don't have an open mind, but require it of me.
I think you like to thinkyou have a superior mind. You don't ever want to look at yourself from what I've gathered. You don't want to answer the one question I have about you. You want to stay focused on being combative and in attack mode...  Don't get me wrong, I don't expect you to roll over and adopt my beliefs. But, is it possible for you to be respectful, since you're trying to demand respect.
You made a snap judgement of me and my character without even knowing me. You think I'm ignorant, etc. You don't have an open mind, but require it of me.
I only have the words on these boards to go by. I have no idea how intelligent you may or may not be.
I haven't said squat about you personally. I've asked some questions, but have stayed pretty strictly to the subject at hand and since you aren't the subject itself, your claims of attack and what kinds of people we may or may not be ring hollow. I'm trying to discuss the subject, you want to make this about me or you. We aren't the subject. The subject is the 10 Commandments and the Bible and Religion and the State... etc... none of which are either you or I.
Go back and read my posts and show me where I have said anything about you.
I said "real open-minded" in response to your claim that you only need one book. Go ahead and explain to me how only needing one book is being open to other ideas.
[Edited 2 times. Most recently by molegrass on Feb 28, 2005 at 07:27pm.]
There is nothing respectful in the position "If you don't believe exactly what I believe, you're going to roast in Hell for all eternity."
I didn't say it, God did. I wasn't showing any disrespect to you.Â
I haven't said squat about you personally...........
I don't have time to go back through the posts again. I already did that once. I do not take it personally that you don't believe what I believe, so don't go there.  Geez - I couldn't care less. Â
I said "real open-minded" in response to your claim that you only need one book. Go ahead and explain to me how only needing one book is being open to other ideas.
FB, when you decided to become a Christian, you rejected a lot of other gods for what seemed to you to be perfectly good reasons. I just rejected one more than you did.
I say we never would be in this position if it weren't for the Florida courts recognizing what is clearly a sham marriage.
At this point, Michael Schiavo asserted his right as husband and guardian to insist his wife Terri's feeding tube be removed. At this point Michael Schiavo is married to Terri Schiavo only for the purpose of ending her life.
Which Michael suddenly remembered seven years after she became disabled, and which he belied on a recent talk show when he said he didn't know what she wanted.
"In the rapidly growing community of Surprise, Ariz., Radiant megachurch offers financial planning, athletic facilities, child care, marriage counseling and Krispy Kremes ($16,000 worth of doughnuts per year) with every sermon. Welcome to the expanding conservative frontier."
Not a steeple or stained glass window in sight. It appears, very little silence and contemplation (big on the rock 'n' roll). The founder, a former Microsoft executve, who became a minister through a correspondence course, freely volunteers that he wants it to look as much like a shopping mall as possible.
"One of the more striking facts to emerge from the 2004 presidential election was that 97 of America's 100 fastest-growing counties voted Republican. Most of these counties are made up of heretofore unknown towns too far from major metropolitan areas to be considered suburbs, but too bustling to be considered rural, places like Lebanon, Ohio; Fridley, Minn.; Crabapple, Ga.; and Surprise, Ariz. America has a new frontier: the exurbs. "
[Edited 5 times. Most recently by on Mar 27, 2005 at 04:40pm.]
Why didn't you save the school children at ?. . Moses Lake, Washington 2/2/96 Bethel, Alaska 2/19/97 Pearl, Mississippi 10/1/97 West Paducah, Kentucky 12/1/97 Stamps, Arkansas 12/15/97 Jonesboro, Arkansas 3/24/98 Edinboro, Pennsylvania 4/24/98 Fayetteville, Tennessee 5/19/98 Springfield, Oregon 5/21/98 Richmond, Virginia 6/15/98 Littleton, Colorado 4/20/99 Taber, Alberta, Canada 5/28/99 Conyers, Georgia 5/20/99 Deming, New Mexico 11/19/99 Fort Gibson, Oklahoma 12/6/99 Santee, California 3/5/01 El Cajon, California 3/22/01 and Red Lake, Minnesota 3/21/05? Sincerely, Concerned Student ----------------------------------------------------- Reply: Dear Concerned Student: I am not allowed in schools. Sincerely, God
Frozen Buttox 2/21/05 9:06pm
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What harm does it do to see the 10 Commandments on a courthouse wall or on a statue? It reminds people of our basic laws. As you get older, you'll also see things you love rubbed away little by little. You'll also experience becoming insignificant. You'll maybe yearn like I do for tradition and history.Â
Â
<o:p>What would you say if the muslim Americans put something on Qoran and Hindu Americans put their Gita stuff infront of the courthouse. They have just as much right as you do.
</o:p>
<o:p>
</o:p>Â
<o:p>If people don't like God, the foundation for our beginnings in this country, why do they come here? I don't go into someone else's house and tell them they need to stop a practice because it offends me...
</o:p>
<o:p>
</o:p>Â
<o:p>Strange how you and your friends conveniently forget who came to whose house and slaughtered millions to rule that land. May be you want to see some native American religious stuff along with Qoran, Gita, Falun Gong, Bahai and some Zhorastrian flame thingy displayed infron of the courthouse and one day everyone starts bickering and moaning.
</o:p>
What would you say if the muslim Americans put something on Qoran and Hindu Americans put their Gita stuff infront of the courthouse. They have just as much right as you doÂ
Since the 10 Commandments have been up long, long before I was born, I'm opposed to spending my tax dollars to remove them. What's the point? The 10 Commandments are NOT a religion, nor do they establish a religion.Â
they are the tenets of the Judeo-Christian faiths
I do not ascribe to that faith
does that mean I'm legally allowed to kill, steal, and committ adultery?
They are the tenenent of a particular Religion and from a particular book of a particular Religion.
To pretend otherwise is to be disingenuous.
We have explained the point at length and you have ignored it.
That something that was wrong was allowed to remain does not make it right. The State supported slavery and racism for a long time, but the claim "it's always been that way" does not make it right, no matter how long it was allowed State support.
Could you address why I should think they are a neccessarily good thing in the first place?
I wrote this...
and you have ignored it.
Tell me why they are a good thing in the first place.
Did you work today? I did and a LOT of other people in my company did as well. Why is the State posting Commandments that tell all of us we are doing something wrong to have done so?
Why is the State posting something that tells an artist they shouldn't make sculptures?
[Edited 3 times. Most recently by molegrass on Feb 27, 2005 at 08:05pm.]
Group guides abused children through complexities of court and past a monument that tells them to honor their abusers?
WTF are you talking about? You're nuts!
Remember folks, crabhole is the guy who thought it was perfectly fine for Hunter Thompson's 6 year old grandson to sit and watch his grandfather blow his brains out.
"Quit talking to me crabgrass" - Torpedo-8
he's been a bit unstable since Krummm made him cry, crabby
I think it was well before that.
moreso the last two days
you should have seen the sobfest
CrabbyCakes:
How can you possibly compare the 10 Commandments with slavery and racism? What freedom does the 10 C's take away from you?
The 10 C's were directed at the Jews in the Old Test.  Many faiths hold them as important. WHAT IS HARMFUL ABOUT SEEING GOOD RULES TO ABIDE BY IN A COURTHOUSE? Is it a reminder to you about how naughty you've been?
The Bible has 2 testaments:
1) OLDÂ for Jews under LAWÂ
2) NEW for all under GRACE
Which means, we do not have to adhere to the Jewish laws like Sabbath, nor do we have to sacrifice animals and so on... As an aside, many historians believe the Sabbath is Saturday. God wanted men to have a day to rest and not work like slaves...
The 10 C's are just basically good rules to live by. They don't include every possible disclaimer that we are so used to these days. Can you imagine how long the Bible would be if He said: "Honor your father and your mother, except if they hit you, except if they murder another, except if they..."?
I don't know where you get artwork confused with idol worshipping, but, if you bow and pray to your playdough statue of Barney, you might have a problem... I personally have a problem with religions who worship and pray to statues. I have a problem with religion period. I only look to the Bible for my information.
Who says you don't have freedom of religion? You're in this country arent you? That wouldn't have happened had it not been for our forefathers. The separation of church and state was a foundation of this country to keep government out of church matters, NOT the other way around. People came to this country to escape being told how they must practice/believe or not.
Â
I wasn't. I was comparing your reasoning that if the State had supported or tolerated the 10 Commandments for a long time, that was a reason to keep allowing them to do so. It's not.
This isn't the Old Testament times and we aren't all old Jews.
So, it's the 9 good ideas and you can forget about the other one? Or is it eight or what?
The word "Commandment" is an absolute. It doesn't say "The 10 Suggestions"
So, you are the one who decides what He really meant? That's mighty bold of you.
I don't know where you get "Thou Shalt Not Make Any Graven Images" confused with worshipping. It doesn't Command that it's okay to make them as long as you don't worship them. And who ae you to have our State tell me what I should or should not worship?
Which version?
Your Bible. Not our State. Keep them separate.
It works both ways.
That you have to say "how they are told...or not" shows that even you know this.
[Edited by molegrass on Feb 28, 2005 at 04:46pm.]
At least the clay would be something real.
How open-minded of you.
I'm very open minded. But, I've concluded after years of open mindedness, that this is what I believe. If I'm wrong, so what. I've lost nothing. If I'm right and you're wrong, you're going to Hell. I'd rather not take the chance.
Sheesh. They we're "commandments" for the Jews. Don't you think they are good basic rules to live by for everyone?Â
You know Crabby Cakes, you always sound so angry. Why is that?Â
One becomes that way after doing weed for 30 years.
Believe in me under threat of eternal torture... nice God you believe in there. Tony Soprano would be proud.
Does a just judge punish the bad, or let them go?
I never said He was "nice" but He is just.
He sent His son to die a horrible death to pay for your sins.  He doesn't want you to go to Hell. And, he gives you the free will to choose your fate.Â
Why are you so darn angry all the time?
Â
He's not threatening you because you are bad or good, His threat hinges entirely on your believing in Him.
He may have died for your sins, but He didn't die for mine. I take responsibility for my own actions.
Some choice... either worship Him or go to the lake of fire for all eternity.
This is what you call a choice? I call it blackmail.
[Edited by molegrass on Feb 28, 2005 at 05:49pm.]
Well, then we disagree. Our discussion overly simplifies the matter though and you're only getting a snapshot of God.
I think you did the same to me when I first showed up in here. You made a snap judgement of me and my character without even knowing me. You think I'm ignorant, etc. You don't have an open mind, but require it of me.
I think you like to thinkyou have a superior mind. You don't ever want to look at yourself from what I've gathered. You don't want to answer the one question I have about you. You want to stay focused on being combative and in attack mode...  Don't get me wrong, I don't expect you to roll over and adopt my beliefs. But, is it possible for you to be respectful, since you're trying to demand respect.
Bingo, Frozen. Don't feel special. He's that way with everyone.
There is nothing respectful in the position "If you don't believe exactly what I believe, you're going to roast in Hell for all eternity."
I only have the words on these boards to go by. I have no idea how intelligent you may or may not be.
I haven't said squat about you personally. I've asked some questions, but have stayed pretty strictly to the subject at hand and since you aren't the subject itself, your claims of attack and what kinds of people we may or may not be ring hollow. I'm trying to discuss the subject, you want to make this about me or you. We aren't the subject. The subject is the 10 Commandments and the Bible and Religion and the State... etc... none of which are either you or I.
Go back and read my posts and show me where I have said anything about you.
I said "real open-minded" in response to your claim that you only need one book. Go ahead and explain to me how only needing one book is being open to other ideas.
[Edited 2 times. Most recently by molegrass on Feb 28, 2005 at 07:27pm.]
There is nothing respectful in the position "If you don't believe exactly what I believe, you're going to roast in Hell for all eternity."
I didn't say it, God did. I wasn't showing any disrespect to you.Â
I haven't said squat about you personally...........
I don't have time to go back through the posts again. I already did that once. I do not take it personally that you don't believe what I believe, so don't go there.  Geez - I couldn't care less. Â
I said "real open-minded" in response to your claim that you only need one book. Go ahead and explain to me how only needing one book is being open to other ideas.
FB, when you decided to become a Christian, you rejected a lot of other gods for what seemed to you to be perfectly good reasons. I just rejected one more than you did.
Only God cares what you reject or don't reject. Take it up with him. As far as I am concerned the sooner the better.
[Edited by on Mar 3, 2005 at 02:53pm.]
Now there's a man who knows how to treat people with respect.
The irony of the above statement.
where has pieter been disrespectful?
did he call you fat too, and you threw a hissy fit?
The irony of the above statement.
I think it's time for one of these... :)
Â
Torpid should look up the word "irony"
I say we never would be in this position if it weren't for the Florida courts recognizing what is clearly a sham marriage.
At this point, Michael Schiavo asserted his right as husband and guardian to insist his wife Terri's feeding tube be removed. At this point Michael Schiavo is married to Terri Schiavo only for the purpose of ending her life.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151086,00.html
bitter over losing, jethro?
according to his wife's wishes.
Which Michael suddenly remembered seven years after she became disabled, and which he belied on a recent talk show when he said he didn't know what she wanted.
I hope you are never in such a position and have other people second guessing your thoughts and actions.
Today's NYT magazine has a cover story on exurb megachurches, highlighting one in Surprise, Arizona:
"In the rapidly growing community of Surprise, Ariz., Radiant megachurch offers financial planning, athletic facilities, child care, marriage counseling and Krispy Kremes ($16,000 worth of doughnuts per year) with every sermon. Welcome to the expanding conservative frontier."
Not a steeple or stained glass window in sight. It appears, very little silence and contemplation (big on the rock 'n' roll). The founder, a former Microsoft executve, who became a minister through a correspondence course, freely volunteers that he wants it to look as much like a shopping mall as possible.
"One of the more striking facts to emerge from the 2004 presidential election was that 97 of America's 100 fastest-growing counties voted Republican. Most of these counties are made up of heretofore unknown towns too far from major metropolitan areas to be considered suburbs, but too bustling to be considered rural, places like Lebanon, Ohio; Fridley, Minn.; Crabapple, Ga.; and Surprise, Ariz. America has a new frontier: the exurbs. "
[Edited 5 times. Most recently by on Mar 27, 2005 at 04:40pm.]
Dear God:
Why didn't you save the school children at ?. .
Moses Lake, Washington 2/2/96
Bethel, Alaska 2/19/97
Pearl, Mississippi 10/1/97
West Paducah, Kentucky 12/1/97
Stamps, Arkansas 12/15/97
Jonesboro, Arkansas 3/24/98
Edinboro, Pennsylvania 4/24/98
Fayetteville, Tennessee 5/19/98
Springfield, Oregon 5/21/98
Richmond, Virginia 6/15/98
Littleton, Colorado 4/20/99
Taber, Alberta, Canada 5/28/99
Conyers, Georgia 5/20/99
Deming, New Mexico 11/19/99
Fort Gibson, Oklahoma 12/6/99
Santee, California 3/5/01
El Cajon, California 3/22/01 and
Red Lake, Minnesota 3/21/05?
Sincerely,
Concerned Student
-----------------------------------------------------
Reply:
Dear Concerned Student:
I am not allowed in schools.
Sincerely,
God
Don't forget Rocori High School in Cold Spring
how melodramatic
could god stop a shooting at a private school?
I wonder how many shootings have been at "homeschools" and at religious private schools.....
[Edited by on Apr 7, 2005 at 07:15am.]
what about stabbings?
Fights?
Swearing?
Â
what about stabbings?
Fights?
Swearing?
hmm.....your right.....but I wonder what the % is of homeschooler and private schoolers getting into fights vs. public school kids...
I can't find any facts....
Maybe many of the kids who did those shootings would have been thrown out of private schools long before any incident.
Private schools have that option.
expulsion can happen in public schools
the point being, saying because we don't allow "god" in public schools, does not prevent school violence
The "problems" at my kids private school, are the problems public schools had in the 1950's.
They don't even seem like problems by todays standards.
Reply:
Dear Concerned Student:
I am not allowed in schools.
Sincerely,
God
the point being, saying because we don't allow "god" in public schools, does not prevent school violence
ya but the pussyfooting around "sensitive" issues isn't helping...why do yo think the issues are getting worse?....
maybe its because they don't keep score anymore in sports...maybe its because they don't say the "one nation under god"
I believe that even if Government doesn't allow 'God' in public schools that He is still by my daughters side everyday.
exactly, it's a cheap shot at atheists and those who actually believe in the establishment clause
The "problems" at my kids private school, are the problems public schools had in the 1950's.
Private schools have their share of problems, but nowhere near as many or as big as public schools