Discussion regarding the Code of Conduct

My intent in this discussion was never to compain, it was to discuss the COC, which I thought was the purpose of this thread. If there is no reason to discuss it, I won't.

and that is a fine line, pm. yes there are people who leave from february to december; those people also know that there are those of us who are here for the rest of the year as well (unless such persons are completely oblivious to what's going on around them). if an issue comes up in say april, can we reasonably wait for people to come back in january just so that their thoughts get heard? our political system doesn't work that way. if you don't vote by absentee ballot or on election day, your voice doesn't get heard by the system. of course you can complain all you want after the fact, but i laugh at people who complain about the candidates that win yet didn't vote.

The Code of Conduct was created to answer what appeared to be the majority of folks saying we should have some rules.

The discussion here has centered mostly on some parts of that code being open to interpretation. Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything stated that would make the Code more clear....just replacing ambiguity with ambiguity.

I again will invite anyone who has some wording to make it more clear to speak up.

the only context I brought up a set group of rules was that we would need one first before we can start banning people for something that doesn't affect the group. I stand by that. but I don't think we should have any, and I don't think we should ban people.

Sometimes I wonder if we need mediators more than moderators. There are people on here who don't like each other, that's a given. It gets thrown in our faces more than we'd like. I think it brings up the question how much stuff do we want to deal with publically versus privately? The impression that I got from some people here about things in the past is that they didn't really care, or they didn't want to be bothered by it. If we decide to have things discussed and figured out in public, then we as the public will have to deal with the issues that come up in the cooler. Do people really want to get into that stuff? Another thing I fear is that when issues come up, that it will turn into arguments between people that don't like each other. The moderators were able to put aside any differences that they may have had and come up with a decision. I can't say with the big issue in the past how things got to be in the discussion, but I tend to believe that it was fairly civilized. If we have more public discussions on things, are there going to be people who are going to attack other people's arguments based purely on the person who is saying it, and not the content of their argument? I have to wonder if that is going to be conducive to things.

We also have to look at the membership ofthe cooler crew. There are those of us who are regulars who post here on a pretty consistent basis. There are some who pop in every so often. And then there are those who come around just for the hunt itself. I think we should make sure that they have some sense of representation, a sense of security when they come here. Having rotating moderators may confuse some people. Also, what will happen if we have public discussion and someone wants to put their opinion in on a previous topic? If we're going to have less responsibility on the moderators, we're going to have to decide upon how we're going to go about discussing major issues, what we'll do for voting, things like that. It will be a lot to consider.

I have to disagree with Tim about having no code of conduct. I think there needs to be some code, otherwise people would be free to do what they want. We have to have at least some standards. What has happened in the past, I think a lot of people feel sorry for what transpired. I don't think people want to be in that position, or have people they care about in that position. I really don't want it to happen to someone else. So I think there has to be some standards that we hold others too. Otherwise people will abuse it, and this community as a whole will deteriorate into something that more and more people will not want to be a part of.

That's another thing that concerns me. There are people who have left, and probably are close to leaving this place. Yeah, it's their choice. But do we want people leaving because of the environment of this place? I think if it's the case we really need to take a look at things. We should be able to disagree yet co-exist. We have our friends that we are closer to than most, but I think we're all tied to each other through this big network of people. We can't just have sides split easily, choosing one side over the other. The fabric of our relationships is too deeply woven. I think that we need to make sure that everyone will have a voice, and be able to express their opinion freely. I feel that some people feel that they can't speak as freely, that they will get ridiculed. There also could be the perception that a smaller group of people has greater power over things because they have a louder voice than the others. Just something I think we all need to consider.

I've rambled some and I hope that I have been able to make people think. These are more of my thoughts on the COC, moderators, and the Crew as a whole.

I think the only code of conduct should be the golden rule: do onto others as you would have others do onto you. I really don't think it takes any more than that. There are some ppl here who like to start trouble just for the sake of starting it, and there are some people who don't. Those that chose to start the trouble will just have to deal with the reprocussions that follow. I.E. getting retaliation from those the "trouble maker" started the trouble with.

The problem that I have with "troublemakers" dealing with retaliation and things like that, is that it doesn't really solve the problem. It just puts it into a vicious cycle that everyone here has to deal with. It doesn't really address the problem.

But see.. if ppl didn't cause trouble.. there would be no trouble...

Yes, but people do cause trouble. There will always be people on this earth who will cause problems. And I don't want this to seem like I'm naming names or implicating anyone. Things start, and if people go back and forth, nothing is really solved. I think we have to look at a different way of dealing with people who will cause problems. Look at the situation of Tim. He admits that he looks to cause trouble. Yet he seems to feed off the attention that he gets and how he makes people feel. Giving the trouble back to him isn't going to really solve anything because he enjoys it. It's just an example of how allowing retaliation will not really solve the problem as a whole.

well then bottom line, if ya dish it out, ya should have to be able to take the heat. If ya can't take it get yer arse out the kitchen.

The majority of people who want to deal out do so because they enjoy it, they want to get a rise out of people. They can handle it because they feed off it. It doesn't address the problems and concerns of the people they may be targeting. In society, if someone shoots a person, we don't let that person automatically shoot them back. It's not going to solve things. It has to be dealt with in a more constructive way, a way that is going to be better results.

well that's where we differ tmk because I believe in an eye for an eye.

That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. I just really don't feel that it's going to solve the problems that are on this forum.

well... starting trouble with one particular person... wouldn't that be considered a form of harassment, especially if it's an ongoing, constant issue?

Yes, it could be considered that. But are you saying that the person who is harassed should do it right back and break rules we'd set? If there are rules and regulations in place, then let those deal with the situation, instead of condoning that people just break the rules right back.

no.. .I'm just saying that if said "trouble maker" continues to cause trouble... they therefor are breaking the code of conduct. Correct? LOL I'm just trying to make sure that things are clear.

I like ice cream.

lol scribe

I agree with you on several statements TMK.

1. I believe that those who are here only for 12 days during the hunt have as much as a voice as those who are here every day all year. I do not think that because you are here more often or less often that your voice should be any less heard.

2. I believe that we should have a code of conduct. I think that there should be some rules to adhere to to be able to participate in this forum. I also believe that we have to make sure we are defining things correctly. I do not believe we are looking for those who stir the pot. I think we need to keep in mind this is a public message board and that will happen. I can assure you, myself included, that almost all who have posted in this thread have stirred the pot at one time or another. We need to make sure that the behavior here keeps people safe. I think that is a very big concern. We did not have any measures in place before to protect individuals. Or any consequences if things were happening. I think this is where we need to concentrate the COC. How to protect the members of the crew.

3. My other thing is to make sure that the pictures posted in the main thread would not get me fired at work. Or at least have a warning so I know not to look at it.

I think that the people who constantly stir the pot need to be addressed as they do affect the quality of this experience for the people they constantly harass. I for one am not willing to sit silent and let someone incessantly prod my husband without voicing my opinion. Will it change the person who is being offensive... no. Does it draw attention to the problem and will it make people understand that I find this an unacceptable situation ... yes. I proposed a solution. If there are to be rules we need to follow them. That means the harassing behavior ceases or the rules mean nothing. We can't have it both ways. And all it takes for evil to rise is for good people to talk about ice cream. One of the things Tim points out is that I didn't hunt last year. I instead spent the hunt trying my best to represent zephy and the cooler. I also didn't hunt as much (though I hunted almost every hunt this year) as some people throughout the year. I have a heart defect. Those of you who know me know about this condition. This year I had a particularly challenging year. I tried to represent the cooler to the very best of my ability. And now this man makes statements like that and no one (other than mystical- and I thank you) says anything in my defense. What I fight for around here is the old cooler... remember folks... the one where people gave a damn about each other. I remember the night Bella was born... the passing of KT's dad... the prayers that were said when anyone was sick or hurt... iming zeph in Iraq to tell him what he did that day. Maybe I am being vocal. But maybe it is because last year I wasn't vocal enough and look what happened. I really want to believe that there is still something here worth fighting for.

What I fight for around here is the old cooler...

I, too, would love to see this place get to be the fun, caring place it once was where everyone was welcomed to join in. It is, after all, what the Cooler Crew is supposed to be about.

Unfortunately, things have happened that have created some hurt feelings and some scars that I hope will heal over time.

The healing won't really begin, however, until we can reach some agreement about being respectful to everyone in spite of obvious differences amongst us. We are a diverse community. How boring would the world be without differing opinions and backgrounds?

The bottom line is one doesn't have to agree with what anyone else says or does - but there needs to be some respect for others and that respect needs to fly both ways.

If I don't agree with something someone says, I can say I don't agree. I can own my own feelings and thoughts, but expect that no one will belittle or make fun of me. In turn, someone I disagree with doesn't need me or anyone else slamming the feelings and thought owned by that other person. Sometimes one has to agree to disagree - respectfully - and move on.

This place needs to be somewhere people want to be or it will die.

As part of the founding members of the Cooler Crew, I don't want to see what was built come to an ugly end.

ya know, i think that there are far too many people around here who are focusing on people who respond to provocation rather than those who do the provoking in the first place. respect has been sorely lacking for a long long time around these parts. it is incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to build bridges when people choose to widen the chasm with inflammatory comments. i've run out of fingers to count the people who have come to me personally expressing their frustration with the bullshit thats going on around here. we are all guilty of it to some degree, i'll admit but from this point forward, we need, as a group, to pay attention and not condone provocation for provocation's sake. like you said, terry, this place needs to be someplace people want to be or it will die. and there's a growing number of people who simple don't want to be here. honestly, i think otis has said it the best more than once (and mystical followed it up as the golden rule): don't be an asshole.

and then what do you tell the small fraction of people that arent/werent being one, in the first place, and yet got treated like they were?

hmm. i'd refer them to the site administrator who presented the evidence against them. especially since they weren't actually exhonerated. the moderators made the best decision they could based on sound evidence and careful consideration. at no time did we intentionally treat anyone with disregard or disrespect.

yet more talk of more evidence that this person hasnt seen....

then that person should contact the site administrator and request to see it. i would think that because the evidence is against the person involved, that the administration shouldn't have any privacy issues in presenting evidence to that person.

Yeah... well, once you've heard the phrase "you dont need to see it", from enough people on the situation, in more places than you probably think of, you'd think twice about asking for it.

you never heard that phrase from me. i encourage you to contact mark or tim about it.

What makes you think that I havent?

This is my opinion about how provocation should be handled.

If possible, ignore it. No one will continue to provoke if it doesn't get them what they want.

If one wishes to respond to the provocation, call it what it is. Ask them to stop.

You are trying to provoke me. I am asking you to stop.

If the one doing the provoking continues, one might then contact a moderator.

Continuing discussion or argument with the one provoking only gives that person what they want and the bickering that follows is one of the things that make people not want to be here.

When it gets to be bickering, it's much harder to respond in a way that isn't continuing the bickering.

Additionally, if anyone expresses themselves in a way I might disagree with, I can say something like I don't agree. I'm sorry to see you feel that way and then move on. I'm not about to get into an discussion about it beyond that. A difference of opinion is just that. If others chime in to make that same observation, fine. If not, it is left as is.

Spending time arguing about those differing opinions makes, for what I have seen as reasons others have left for a time.

It goes back to two wrongs don't make a right. If one chooses to be an asshole and provoke anyone else, and the one being provoked responds to a point where there is bickering, nothing is gained, it's easier for observers to take sides, and it's much more difficult for a moderator to step in to do anything about the original provoking.

Taking this out of the context of the cooler, two kids are arguing, both kids get a time out. Or...one kid is egging another one on towards an argument and the second kid doesn't respond or tells a grown up person, that provoker gets the time out.

tell you what. i'll egram tim about it on your behalf, because i do belive that you ought to be able to see the evidence against you. but its his decision alone as to whether or not that can be legally released.

Or...one kid is egging another one on towards an argument and the second kid doesn't respond or tells a grown up person, that provoker gets the time out.

so when do we start giving out timeouts to the provokers? otherwise what you're asking is for people to sit and suffer in silence until they find that leaving is a more productive option than staying.

you need'nt feel obligated to do me any favors.

as of this point, I really dont care to see it anyways...

What i'd like to see though, is the other folder thats supposedly being kept on me, someplace....but that aint happening either... Ive been told that its in my own best interest, if I dont even tryto see it...

the only reason I brought it up, was because i've seen numerous posts mentioning the "asshole" being punished, but yet nothing mentioning the proceedings, if said a-hole was only made to look like one, so someone else could prove a point.

I think anyone doing provoking should be called to task for it...but that can only effectively be done when the person being provoked is able to call it what it is, tell that person to stop, and then let the moderators handle the problem.

Once there is bickering and observers are putting in their two cents, it's much more difficult.

I never suggested anyone should suffer in silence.

I am suggesting letting this code of conduct take care of the trouble maker.

well, i won't get into that matter.

And for the record, I am aware that Tim is happy to provoke others here - not just you, ares. He's tried it a time or two with me as well.

Also for the record, Tim can consider this notice that the provocation of others here needs to stop.

i'm glad to see we're on the same page!

as far as observers putting in their $0.02, i personally don't think that's something that can be helped.

thanks...

I'd rather not, also.

thank you!

I can't think of a time I would ever try to do anything negative to you Terry and if you think I did, I'm sorry.

In the classic form of the "he started it" argument, I technically didn't start anything with Ares recently. I made a comment in the missing persons thread about lilman that he was acting childish because he was upset that he was not on coolertimes, it had nothing to do with ares and then he made a post about the pot calling the kettle black which most would agree was a thinly veiled shot at me.

I'll admit I don't walk away from an argument well, but that's partially because I don't take it nearly as seriously as most of you. I mean 50 weeks of the year this is a place to goof around and post pictures of bunnies with pancakes on their heads. Then there is a medallion hunt. I take the medallion hunt part seriously.

I think part of the problem is people have different ideas of what the cooler crew is, and perhaps what it should be. Like Allison said, the cooler crew has changed. But to be honest with you, the greatest change I have seen is the size that we have grown to and the added complications of having so many different people that have different ideas of how things should go.

Personally I think the cooler crew functions best as a loose knit community that has one thing in common and that is the medallion hunt. We have a predig gig, we have a rehash bash, people that don't like each other co-exist there and everyone has a good time. We see each other in the parks (or bars) and say hello, but we really spend the most time with our closest friends. I think if we leave it at that, a lot of the problems never become problems. OTiS runs his web site, mr med hunter runs his, ares/whoever else run coolercrew.com. Big G makes a logo and whoever wants a shirt with that logo can get one, if you donÂ’t like the logo, donÂ’t get a shirt. Someone else can make another shirt with a different logo if they want, and G should not be offended. TMK and rosie went through a tough year involving an HRO and a bunch of other stuff that really was tough and I understand that, I am sorry that I didn't show more sympathy for them. But the way I see it, that was something that didn't need to be a cooler crew issue it was a personal issue that could have been dealt with personally, IÂ’m not saying that to be harsh or mean I just didnÂ’t think it concerned the crew as a whole.

Perhaps that's why I joke around more than others and donÂ’t take ares seriously because it doesn't mean as much to me as it does to others. I apologize to those who have been offended something I have said as I have misjudged what the cooler crew means to people and what it is for them. I still believe the best way to preserve the board is to lighten up, but that's just my opinion.

Well see that's the problem Tim, what YOU might think as joking... another person may not, but when you come right out and dryly talk smack about someone, that's another story, and you do DO that, more so than others. All people are saying basically is what's good for the gander is good for the goose. What's good for one is good for all. That's the fair way to do things here.

I'll be completely honest here, that's why I don't come around as often as I used to, because I'm tired of all the drama. I'm tired of not feeling comfortable here any more. I'm tired of being frowned upon because what I type is "stupid" and not always about the hunt. Ya know, I can't even count all the stupid things that I have seen typed by other people, but that seems to roll over ok. Ya get what I'm saying? I try my best to get along with everyone, even Tim. I'm a bigger person than that. We're all here because we love the hunt, that's obvious. There's absolutely no reason why we can't respect each other ALL of the time, not just at the pre-dig, or in the parks.

http://news.com.com/Create+an+e-annoyance,+go+to+jail/2010-1028_3-6022491.html?part=rss&tag=6022491&subj=news

I think that if we really want to work on things and get back to harmony, we have to look at the problem as a whole. Focus on the person who makes a negative statement towards another person, and also on the person who responds negatively towards that person. The person who makes the original statement shouldn't be making such statements if we want to have a more harmonious, fun environment. If they want to make statements like that, they can make it in private, they can make it amongst their friends. They don't really have to make it at all even because it doesn't do any good for the situation or the environment. Also, I think we need to address the people who respond in a negative way back to the initial poster. Yeah, it's hard to not respond back to people when they make harassing or demeaning comments towards yourself. Instead of firing right back with something, treat in a more constructive way that will help diffuse the situation and be better for yourself and the environment as a whole. Let others handle it, whether it be the mods or the community as a whole. Think of how you react and how it will affect you and your happiness here for the future. If you shoot back with demeaning comments right back, it's just going to continue things and the environment is just going to get gradually worse, not better.

I know I used Tim as an example. He doesn't take this place as seriously. Personally I think he needs to realize more that there are other people who take this place a lot more seriously than him. I think on the other hand, people like Mystical need to realize that Tim doesn't take this place as serious, so we shouldn't take his comments as serious either. If both sides can realize these things, then we can hopefully avoid as many problems. I don't mean to single people out by any means, I just want to use them as examples to help illustrate what I'm trying to say.

All - my head hurts too much to go into a lot of detail right now, but I have some ideas that might simplify this whole process and make it almost um democratic - because there are ways to solve many of the problems expressed in the last 78 posts.

When the excedrine kicks in, I will try to come back and post an outline of suggestions to facilitate rules that everyone can hopefully agree on.

I don't remember who said what but a couple of things that jumped out at me.

This is not life - this is a internet message board, but like life, not everything is fair. Wouldn't it be great if the whole world did live by the golden rule? yeah - and the second that happens, I will buy pink ponies for everyone.

There is also a lot of grey in the typed vs. the spoke word - inflection of voice etc. I don't know whom doesn't like whom on here, but I can pretty much bet that for the most part because we are all adults, and civilized(??) people that if instead of being a message board all of these conversations happened face to face, much of the negative interactions would not take place.

I'll be back. I'm not sure anything I just typed makes any sense and I nodded off mid post.

I want a pink pony.

I think that the best way to sum up the experience for me is to say that a venue that used to be "how can we support our community" has turned into "mind over matter... I don't mind cause you don't matter". I certainly don't think for a moment that everyone on here has personalities that will make them friends.. but face it folks when you pay to post what kind of an idiot is going to stick around and participate in a place as a recreational activity where there is stress and bashing. Keep it to yourself. Good lord if I want to deal with high school antics I will just stay off line and listen to my daughter and her friends describe the angst of high school. I really don't appreciate the patronizing tone of people saying that it is ok to treat others in a fashion that lacks civility because they don't take the experience seriously. If you have enough time on your hands to participate in frivolous activity bully for you. I personally don't. As for pink ponies... good lord I am not expecting utopia... just could people act in a reasonable and mature manner? Is that asking so much?

I can't think of a time I would ever try to do anything negative to you Terry and if you think I did, I'm sorry.

Thank you. I will accept that apology.

RE: TMK and rosie

That issue is in the past and there are now things in place that will prevent something similar from happening again.

...this is a place to goof around and post pictures of bunnies with pancakes on their heads.

Goofing around is wonderful. Its what makes this a fun, friendly environment for people to participate in and about. The problem comes when the goofing around is slamming other people. As others have stated, this discussion board lacks the voice inflections and the face-to-face opportunity that is more conducive to teasing. If it looks like a provocation, even if itÂ’s not meant to be one, targeted individuals may interpret that differently. If youÂ’re called on it, go back and try to see your post in a different light.

I'll admit I don't walk away from an argument well

No one said itÂ’s easy, but in the long run, itÂ’s better to do so.

I still believe the best way to preserve the board is to lighten up,

As long as it’s respectful to the rest of the Crew – Amen.

That's what I'm saying Terry. I don't mind goofing around one bit, but when it comes in the form of belittleing someone... it's not fun any more. Especially for the person being belittled.

while I don't take this place as seriously as others, I feel that my name is being dragged through the mud here. I have paraphrased the last argument ares and I had. I admit I could have let the first comment go, but it's not like I was sitting there and just decided it would be fun to mess with ares, it was provoked. if you disagree that what I have paraphrased is not what ares meant, let me know but I am pretty certain it is obvious. this is in the missing persons thread incase anyone wants to see how it actually went down...

Recap of argument between Ares and I.

-I said lilman was acting childish

-ares said that I was childish

-I called ares a wiener

-ares asks if my avatar is a cozy for my genitals, and then says that my genitals are small.

-I make fun of ares for not medallion hunting.

-I say he has no friends

-ares says I am acting like a 5 year old

-I tell him i'm trying to bother him

-he says I dont bother him, he says he cares about this place and I am driving people away.

-I point out that if that were the case, he wouldn't argue with me, and tell him I'll leave him alone.

-he blames his actions on me drawing him into the argument, and then makes another joke about how young I am

some people may be upset that I am rehashing an old argument but I've had about enough.

if you read that argument without the names, would you be able to tell which of the participants was a provoker that doesn't care about the cooler crew and which one was a moderator of this forum that cares about it's well being?