Scribe! Cool to see your post on the mind/body board! I felt like a lonely hunter over there! I like to discuss things of that nature, but most of those people are way over my head, and require PROOF,of which I have none but my own experiences.
Grandparents are a beautiful thing! We learn so much from them (good or bad), I don't even like to think about who I'd be if I hadn't had their influences! I learned how to deal with and understand things (like life and love, death and dis-ease) just by being with them and listening to their stories.
I was very close to my Great Grandma, and before she passed over we had wonderful discussions of God and Life, and the after-life. she was a great catalyst in my life and I in hers.
Artemis,I thought you sounded a bit lonely over there and you know I don't mind discussing my beliefs:)
Proof is a very subjective thing when it comes to faith.I wish all who are searching much luck and I actually do find proof in science that God not only exists but is the creator.
Course the book I may quote from is very controversial.....:)
I agree that proof is subjective..I have enough proof for myself to know I'm on my right track, but like to keep an open mind and consider other's view points. There's still a lot to learn, and I always try to keep learning.
Controversial Book??? The books I've read aren't as well known, a couple authors that are Psychics and Mediums, my family mostly think I'm nuts.
Thanks for the greeting this morning. I didn't mean to rush off, but I was running a little late. I think you finally figured out the chat thing, right?
Artemis the controversial book I was referring to is the Bible. Most folks will accept a quote from any other book than that.
If you are interested I would try some historically based faith books and trace the three major religions(Judaism,Islam,Christianity) back to Abraham. It may not be convincing but it is good information about the history and evolution of these three beliefs and to understand their differences.
TPT, channel 2 has had some great documentaries on the roman empire as well as the middle east. Non of these have been christian based but historical and has helped me to undersand scripture better in the context of time.
come on, frosti. knowing scribe, i knew as soon as she wrote it that she was talking about the bible. what i'm trying to figure out is why people won't accept quotes from it.
Because the Bible has been twisted to justify wars and torture.Notice the word twisted!
Also folks referring to themselves as "christians" have and continue to commit atrocities in the name of god and quote the bible.
People look at David Koresh,Tammy Faye Baker. and slews of others and immediately put all christians in that box. Even hitler quoted the Bible but only a moron would think he was a true christian.
What people don't seem to get is that you can tell a person by what they do not only what they say.
And so most folks that are not christians,jews or muslims will not even look at scripture.I have heard folks claim the read it cover to cover and point out the contradictions........well...DUH.....read it without historical reference and that will happen,the Bible is not a Stephen King novel.....though it does tell an overall story of the history of human beings and our relationship with our creator.
Ah! yes,thats what I'm talking about! Human beings have done horrible things in the name of God and God gets the bad rap not the morons who did it!(as well as the good people who believe in Him and did not commit the arocities)
What people forget is the He gave us free will to make our own choices and take responsibility for them.
unfortunately, people never will take responsibility for their actions. its too convenient to point at the bible, or the koran, or the torah, or whatever book your particular faith holds holy and say "yep. here's why i did it."
Thats right Ares! That is also why so many people stay away from"organized" religion.
Here's the deal folks.God is perfect we are not,an organization made up of human beings(ANY HUMAN BEINGS) is not going to be perfect and is subject to the same sins and failures of any other organization made up of..........human beings.
Thats where compassion,understanding,forgiveness and the very hard art of integrity come in.If all the good folks left organized religion it would be left to the hyenas and vultures and would truley become an apostacy!
I struggled with this being raised a Catholic and questioning some of the "rules and regulations" of the church what I found was that it really does come down to me and God and our relationship.My church is where I choose to worship with others that try to live and walk the same path. We fail all the time......I fail all the time,but I keep trying and learning to be better with His help.I choose to remain Catholic to try be a good example of the Catholic Church and the sacrifice of Christ, not what the world wants to label and box it as.
hey, i struggled with the rules and regs being raised lutheran, which is pretty much a catholic with a much more liberal set of rules and regulations :) of course it is also having grown up with that same smaller set of rules and regs that would prevent me from ever becoming catholic too. the roman catholic church simply has its tenets that i cannot agree with.
not what the world wants to label and box it as.
let the world label the box. if you're that closed-minded that you have to judge the whole based on what a small subset of that whole does, well. you figure it out.
OK, but what if I don't agree with the church and many of the rules and regulations that they have? Should I stay and give my implicit support to this organization, even though they are taking action that I disagree with? I don't know.
We're in the midst of an ongoing religious debate at our house, so it's interesting to get other views. I'm not trying to attack your viewpoint or beliefs Scribe.
my answer would be a resounding no. as you say, staying around gives your implicit support. the question then becomes "is there an acceptable alternative?"
the question then becomes "is there an acceptable alternative?"
Aye, that's the $64,000 question. The Chick has been looking into the Unitarian Church. She's intrigued, but wants to go to a service before she decides.
No offense taken Frosti,I'm not trying to convert anyone just sharing my point of view.
OK, but what if I don't agree with the church and many of the rules and regulations that                                          they have? Should I stay and give my implicit support to this organization, even though                                          they are taking action that I disagree with? I don't know.
I don't agree with everything the Catholic Church does or says......and for that matter it all changes from parish to parish anyway. What I found is also true with the Baptists,Methodists,Lutherans,Free chursh etc........ I never did find a "church" that I agreed with everything on. What I did find is that we all can agree on the basic belief that Jesus was both Christ and Messiah a part of God's self that He sent to us to shed his blood to cover our sins and bring us into a personal relationship with Him based on this faith. The Catholic Church is built on this basic tenet as well as the other denominations. I chose to remain Catholic because I find richness in the celebration of mass as well as the sacraments. It really just came down to how I wanted to worship and publicly commune with God.
As far as support both financially and service,there are more than enough different points of views and charitable services within the Catholic Church that I can pick and choose where I give.I also give outside the Catholic Church to other christian organizations that I feel are doing good service to glorify God.
OK, but on a more basic level. What if I don't believe that Jesus Christ was the son of god? Maybe Mohammed was really the son of god and Christianity is wrong. Maybe Budda is the way to go. Those are the issues we're having.
I believe there's probably a god, and the god that I want to worship doesn't care about how I do it, whether I chant, sing or burn incense and meditate. If you were god, wouldn't you want a little variety in the way people pay homage to you? Must get boring being a deity otherwise. I haven't found a church yet that doesn't feel the other religions are wrongand there is no way to salvation other than the narrow little path they preach.
Frosti, I did not sincerely become a christian until I learned and explored other ideas of who God is and what exactly He wants from us. By my personal exploration I found that He does indeed have a personality and a sense of humor! How I chose to accept christainity was by the person I found God to be.
Although I do not agree with the Buddist belief or the Hindu belief I understand it and have a basic respect for it.
I do not suggest you just join a church if you can't believe the basic tenets. That is true if you choose to be a satanist....LOL If you don't believe that satan is the king........or that he even exists it probably wouldn't be a good idea to attend wednsday night squirrel sacrifices!LOL!
I do think that you should keep an open mind and learn as much as you can before deciding......concentrate on the basics and how those feel in your heart. Faith........when found should fill your soul and be an anchor of peace throughout your life!
One more thing to add on the precipice of the right belief and the wrong belief.
Once you come to your own conclusion that is what is truth for you. The whole point of truth is that there ulimately is something untrue in something else. This is not a bad thing just a result of making a decision.
If this was not a natural thing there would be no democrats or republicans......no christians or athiests........all believe in one point of view and view the other as "wrong".
So no matter what you decide that will always be the case! Welcome to the human condition!:)
I think the key here is to learn as much as you can about other points of view so that when you do disagree you can at least understand.
Basic respect is all.
I can use Dennis on the political boards as a prime example.He and I are both christians but he believes in socialism and I am a conservative republican. We can debate and disgree and even call each other morons but I respect him,like him and love his sense of humor.
Good question Dal. Let me know when you find the answer. Here's a better one. A couple's parents are pressuring them to raise the grandchildren in the grandparent's religion, even though the parents are not practicing members of that religion. Raise their children in a religion they don't believe in for the sake of the larger family harmony, or risk parental ire and possibly raise them with an empty sense of spirituality?
if you yourself don't believe in the religion, frosti, how can you possibly do a good job of raising your children in it? if you can answer that question, the grandparents have an argument to make. if not, the grandparents have to be made to understand that.
True true. But, while I think that they deserve to be raised with some sort of spiritual awareness, I have no idea what kind. So, the follow up question would be this. Do we raise them in grandma & grandpa's religion for the time being while we figure out something better? On the theory that something is better than nothing??
Question: If a couple does not have the same specific beliefs (but are both, say, Christians), and                                  they have children whom they want to raise as Christians, should one parent convert so that they                                  can participate in the religion as a family, or is it important to stay true to your own beliefs? That                                  is, when it comes to religion, spirituality, and family: should one "sacrifice for the greater good" or
"to thine ownself be true"?
If the couple are both christians what is the big issue? There are enough denominations of christianity that they should be able to find one that both agree on. Leaglism is the problem that I see here! For the greater good of the family I do think it is necessary to find one(or both) that the whole family can attend together. When I was growing up,my mother was a Presbyterian and my father a Catholic. I was baptized Catholic and we attended the Presbyterian church in the morning and then mass at noon. I went to Catholic school and felt I actually had an advantage in religion class because the Presbyterians taught me scripture from a young age..........course the priests didn't like it when I pointed out a misquote.....:) The thing is that my parents did strike a medium here and both were consistant in my religious upbringing.I had the benefit of growing up christian with two points of view but the same basic belief.(hey how do you like that......I found something my parents actually did right)LOL!
which can you do a better job with, frosti? and beyond that (and probably more importantly), do you want to have to try and undo the beliefs they come to acquire when you do find what's right?
Marley I can see you!
Yeah well im lookin in the mirror???????
I guess im psychic tooo!
I called cleo she told me so!(and shes for real)
Gots to believe mon!
Dal has her own thread? The ego is out of control, watch out! lol
um, when did kal get added to the list????
I think therefore I am!
Lance- I checked out the Mind and Spirit boards- WOW!
"Circular thinking can be one way of linking"
how long before my mind stops spinning?
You never did post what you believe....I'm curious.
Question? What is Agnostic and what do Agnostics believe?
I think Running Chick mentioned something about it at Embers.
Agnostic is one step away from being an atheist. Agnostics think may something up there, but they can't prove what it is.
me2 me2 me2
she's got psychic powers too??? i knew she had some sort of mystical powers. you oughtta see what she can do with an m&m, but psychic too???
by the way, mornin' dal.
Scribe! Cool to see your post on the mind/body board! I felt like a lonely hunter over there! I like to discuss things of that nature, but most of those people are way over my head, and require PROOF,of which I have none but my own experiences.
Grandparents are a beautiful thing! We learn so much from them (good or bad), I don't even like to think about who I'd be if I hadn't had their influences! I learned how to deal with and understand things (like life and love, death and dis-ease) just by being with them and listening to their stories.
I was very close to my Great Grandma, and before she passed over we had wonderful discussions of God and Life, and the after-life.
she was a great catalyst in my life and I in hers.
Artemis,I thought you sounded a bit lonely over there and you know I don't mind discussing my beliefs:)
Proof is a very subjective thing when it comes to faith.I wish all who are searching much luck and I actually do find proof in science that God not only exists but is the creator.
Course the book I may quote from is very controversial.....:)
Course the book I may quote from is very controversial.....:)
Oooh! Controversy! Tell me more...
controversy is a good thing, n'est-ce pas?
I agree that proof is subjective..I have enough proof for myself to know I'm on my right track, but like to keep an open mind and consider other's view points. There's still a lot to learn, and I always try to keep learning.
Controversial Book??? The books I've read aren't as well known, a couple authors that are Psychics and Mediums, my family mostly think I'm nuts.
Huntress,
Thanks for the greeting this morning. I didn't mean to rush off, but I was running a little late. I think you finally figured out the chat thing, right?
my family mostly think I'm nuts
I wouldn't have it any other way !
Thanx Ian, I did finally get it figured out.
my family mostly think I'm nuts
I wouldn't have it any other way !
LOL, neither would I!
Artemis the controversial book I was referring to is the Bible. Most folks will accept a quote from any other book than that.
If you are interested I would try some historically based faith books and trace the three major religions(Judaism,Islam,Christianity) back to Abraham. It may not be convincing but it is good information about the history and evolution of these three beliefs and to understand their differences.
TPT, channel 2 has had some great documentaries on the roman empire as well as the middle east. Non of these have been christian based but historical and has helped me to undersand scripture better in the context of time.
Artemis the controversial book I was referring to is the Bible.
I'm sooooo disappointed. I was hoping for something naughty. Maybe Song of Solomon would do?
come on, frosti. knowing scribe, i knew as soon as she wrote it that she was talking about the bible. what i'm trying to figure out is why people won't accept quotes from it.
Because the Bible has been twisted to justify wars and torture.Notice the word twisted!
Also folks referring to themselves as "christians" have and continue to commit atrocities in the name of god and quote the bible.
People look at David Koresh,Tammy Faye Baker. and slews of others and immediately put all christians in that box.
Even hitler quoted the Bible but only a moron would think he was a true christian.
What people don't seem to get is that you can tell a person by what they do not only what they say.
And so most folks that are not christians,jews or muslims will not even look at scripture.I have heard folks claim the read it cover to cover and point out the contradictions........well...DUH.....read it without historical reference and that will happen,the Bible is not a Stephen King novel.....though it does tell an overall story of the history of human beings and our relationship with our creator.
the crusades for one thing, the inquisition for another.
Yeah, I knew it was going to be the bible too Ares. That's part of my disappointment. Scribe's just so predictable. LOL!
Ah! yes,thats what I'm talking about! Human beings have done horrible things in the name of God and God gets the bad rap not the morons who did it!(as well as the good people who believe in Him and did not commit the arocities)
What people forget is the He gave us free will to make our own choices and take responsibility for them.
unfortunately, people never will take responsibility for their actions. its too convenient to point at the bible, or the koran, or the torah, or whatever book your particular faith holds holy and say "yep. here's why i did it."
Thats right Ares!
That is also why so many people stay away from"organized" religion.
Here's the deal folks.God is perfect we are not,an organization made up of human beings(ANY HUMAN BEINGS) is not going to be perfect and is subject to the same sins and failures of any other organization made up of..........human beings.
Thats where compassion,understanding,forgiveness and the very hard art of integrity come in.If all the good folks left organized religion it would be left to the hyenas and vultures and would truley become an apostacy!
I struggled with this being raised a Catholic and questioning some of the "rules and regulations" of the church what I found was that it really does come down to me and God and our relationship.My church is where I choose to worship with others that try to live and walk the same path. We fail all the time......I fail all the time,but I keep trying and learning to be better with His help.I choose to remain Catholic to try be a good example of the Catholic Church and the sacrifice of Christ, not what the world wants to label and box it as.
hey, i struggled with the rules and regs being raised lutheran, which is pretty much a catholic with a much more liberal set of rules and regulations :) of course it is also having grown up with that same smaller set of rules and regs that would prevent me from ever becoming catholic too. the roman catholic church simply has its tenets that i cannot agree with.
not what the world wants to label and box it as.
let the world label the box. if you're that closed-minded that you have to judge the whole based on what a small subset of that whole does, well. you figure it out.
OK, but what if I don't agree with the church and many of the rules and regulations that they have? Should I stay and give my implicit support to this organization, even though they are taking action that I disagree with? I don't know.
We're in the midst of an ongoing religious debate at our house, so it's interesting to get other views. I'm not trying to attack your viewpoint or beliefs Scribe.
my answer would be a resounding no. as you say, staying around gives your implicit support. the question then becomes "is there an acceptable alternative?"
the question then becomes "is there an acceptable alternative?"
Aye, that's the $64,000 question. The Chick has been looking into the Unitarian Church. She's intrigued, but wants to go to a service before she decides.
No offense taken Frosti,I'm not trying to convert anyone just sharing my point of view.
OK, but what if I don't agree with the church and many of the rules and regulations that
                                         they have? Should I stay and give my implicit support to this organization, even though
                                         they are taking action that I disagree with? I don't know.
I don't agree with everything the Catholic Church does or says......and for that matter it all changes from parish to parish anyway.
What I found is also true with the Baptists,Methodists,Lutherans,Free chursh etc........
I never did find a "church" that I agreed with everything on.
What I did find is that we all can agree on the basic belief that Jesus was both Christ and Messiah a part of God's self that He sent to us to shed his blood to cover our sins and bring us into a personal relationship with Him based on this faith.
The Catholic Church is built on this basic tenet as well as the other denominations. I chose to remain Catholic because I find richness in the celebration of mass as well as the sacraments. It really just came down to how I wanted to worship and publicly commune with God.
As far as support both financially and service,there are more than enough different points of views and charitable services within the Catholic Church that I can pick and choose where I give.I also give outside the Catholic Church to other christian organizations that I feel are doing good service to glorify God.
OK, but on a more basic level. What if I don't believe that Jesus Christ was the son of god? Maybe Mohammed was really the son of god and Christianity is wrong. Maybe Budda is the way to go. Those are the issues we're having.
I believe there's probably a god, and the god that I want to worship doesn't care about how I do it, whether I chant, sing or burn incense and meditate. If you were god, wouldn't you want a little variety in the way people pay homage to you? Must get boring being a deity otherwise. I haven't found a church yet that doesn't feel the other religions are wrongand there is no way to salvation other than the narrow little path they preach.
Frosti, I did not sincerely become a christian until I learned and explored other ideas of who God is and what exactly He wants from us. By my personal exploration I found that He does indeed have a personality and a sense of humor!
How I chose to accept christainity was by the person I found God to be.
Although I do not agree with the Buddist belief or the Hindu belief I understand it and have a basic respect for it.
I do not suggest you just join a church if you can't believe the basic tenets. That is true if you choose to be a satanist....LOL
If you don't believe that satan is the king........or that he even exists it probably wouldn't be a good idea to attend wednsday night squirrel sacrifices!LOL!
I do think that you should keep an open mind and learn as much as you can before deciding......concentrate on the basics and how those feel in your heart.
Faith........when found should fill your soul and be an anchor of peace throughout your life!
wednsday night squirrel sacrifices
Aw. Those are the highlight of my week! LOL
One more thing to add on the precipice of the right belief and the wrong belief.
Once you come to your own conclusion that is what is truth for you. The whole point of truth is that there ulimately is something untrue in something else. This is not a bad thing just a result of making a decision.
If this was not a natural thing there would be no democrats or republicans......no christians or athiests........all believe in one point of view and view the other as "wrong".
So no matter what you decide that will always be the case! Welcome to the human condition!:)
I think the key here is to learn as much as you can about other points of view so that when you do disagree you can at least understand.
Basic respect is all.
I can use Dennis on the political boards as a prime example.He and I are both christians but he believes in socialism and I am a conservative republican. We can debate and disgree and even call each other morons but I respect him,like him and love his sense of humor.
Welcome to the human condition
Thanks! Do I get a gift basket?
Good question Dal. Let me know when you find the answer. Here's a better one. A couple's parents are pressuring them to raise the grandchildren in the grandparent's religion, even though the parents are not practicing members of that religion. Raise their children in a religion they don't believe in for the sake of the larger family harmony, or risk parental ire and possibly raise them with an empty sense of spirituality?
if you yourself don't believe in the religion, frosti, how can you possibly do a good job of raising your children in it? if you can answer that question, the grandparents have an argument to make. if not, the grandparents have to be made to understand that.
the grandparents have to be made to understand that.
Good luck! :-)
As a parent it's your right and responsibility to raise your children as you see best.
Good luck! :-)
forget my parents telling me how to raise my future children, i'll be waiting for my dad'sparents to tell me how to do it! specifically his mother.
True true. But, while I think that they deserve to be raised with some sort of spiritual awareness, I have no idea what kind. So, the follow up question would be this. Do we raise them in grandma & grandpa's religion for the time being while we figure out something better? On the theory that something is better than nothing??
Question: If a couple does not have the same specific beliefs (but are both, say, Christians), and
                                 they have children whom they want to raise as Christians, should one parent convert so that they
                                 can participate in the religion as a family, or is it important to stay true to your own beliefs? That
                                 is, when it comes to religion, spirituality, and family: should one "sacrifice for the greater good" or
"to thine ownself be true"?
If the couple are both christians what is the big issue? There are enough denominations of christianity that they should be able to find one that both agree on. Leaglism is the problem that I see here! For the greater good of the family I do think it is necessary to find one(or both) that the whole family can attend together.
When I was growing up,my mother was a Presbyterian and my father a Catholic. I was baptized Catholic and we attended the Presbyterian church in the morning and then mass at noon. I went to Catholic school and felt I actually had an advantage in religion class because the Presbyterians taught me scripture from a young age..........course the priests didn't like it when I pointed out a misquote.....:)
The thing is that my parents did strike a medium here and both were consistant in my religious upbringing.I had the benefit of growing up christian with two points of view but the same basic belief.(hey how do you like that......I found something my parents actually did right)LOL!
which can you do a better job with, frosti? and beyond that (and probably more importantly), do you want to have to try and undo the beliefs they come to acquire when you do find what's right?
scribe you shouldn't talk about your parents like that when they're not around to defend themselves :)
which can you do a better job with
I can do a great job with skipping church on Sunday and sleeping in, then making waffles!
do you want to have to try and undo the beliefs they come to acquire when you do find what's right?
What if I never find "what's right"?
I personally couldn't raise my children in a religion I didn't truly believe in. Nor do I think I could do a good job if I didn't truly believe in it.
well then, i'd say you have to determine if you're willing to take that risk, and if you're not willing to take that risk, what you are willing to do.
and i can do a great job sleeping in on sunday morning too :)