Here's a better one. A couple's parents are pressuring them to raise the grandchildren in the grandparents religion, even though the parents are not practicing members of that religion. Raise their children in a religion they don't believe in for the sake of the larger family harmony, or risk parental ire and possibly raise them with an empty sense of spirituality?
Frosti,I am assuming this is your family so..........
If the grandparents are true christians then how is it they don't respect the free will God gave us? That is first and foremost what we believe that you come to Christ by free choice and faith. To just raise your kids in something you don't believe and do not model is a huge mistake in my opinion why not be honest with the kids on the fact that you are searching? That to me is a more honest and respectful approach. I don't understand these grandparents at all! You can't force faith! That is why God has been so patient with us since the beginning! He didn't create robots that just do his bidding! He wants you to find Him and choose Him on your own! To do anything else is a lie! Don't lie to your kids.........it's a bad precedent to set!:)
Exactly my point Frosti! Hopefully you and runningchick being honest with your searching to your kids at least won't shut them out of options. That's what trying to force faith does and it isn't right!
AND it makes me mad,mad,mad when christians do it because they should know better!!!!
Tell the grandparents to lay off and point them back to the good book and tell them to take it up with God!........Oh and tell them this advice comes from a fellow christian!
I can't understand these grandparents! Where is their faith? We as christians believe that God has made us promises and will never leave us or forsake us........we are also taught to follow in His footsteps and try to practice that with others!
I think I heard runningchick say that one of her parents was a minister?
That is exactly why Jesus said to pray for our leaders in the church! I am sure they are nice folks........but they certainly don't use their faith.........except to beat up their own family!
Frosti,you and runningchick are doing well just searching. The only thing i do ask you to consider is all options including christainity to spite your family.People of true faith do not act that way!.....(..well we do sometimes as everbody does when they believe something strongly but we don't shove it down your throats!)
If you do explore christianity try a Free church........looser atmosphere and no pressure(I hope) also a Catholic mass at the Cathedral on Christmas day......no one will even bug you about it and it is a beautiful service!
I think I heard runningchick say that one of her parents was a minister?
No, no ministers in the family. Must have been creative hearing. It's actually my mother.
<irony> She's in the process of a spiritual awakening of sorts, and told me recently that she went to church when she was young to appease her parents, not through any particularly strong belief of her own
</irony>.
But, her arguement is that she did it, and now she's a believer. So, suck it up and sooner or later you'll submit and become a religious automaton. Insert evil chuckle here.
Raise their children in a religion they don't believe in for the sake of the larger family harmony, or risk parental ire and possibly raise them with an empty sense of spirituality?
I think a line has to be drawn when it comes to "grandparental interference." yes, their advice is helpful and they have experience, but the kids are YOURS. Maybe a good thing to do is forget about the grandparents' feelings, forget about your own feelings too, and ask yourself the age-old question: What would benefit my children? ("Won't someone please think of the children!")
Of course, their parents having a good relationship with the gparents is one factor. But when it comes to their finding their own spirituality, will they want to start at the place where their own parents are? I think so. They can be exposed to the gparents religion during visits and discussions, but they need not be raised in it to get an understanding of it and decide for themselves one day.
also a Catholic mass at the Cathedral on Christmas day
I did that once. Biship Harry Flynn spoke on the evils of abortion for 30 minutes. Didn't make me want to convert. On Christmas day, a day of celebration, for ___'s sake!
wow, frosti, i went to church as a kid for the same reason. mom and dad said i had to. i went to sunday school, and made my way through confirmation to satisfy them. i hated every minute of it, and thought it was a bunch of bs. then nearly 5 years ago, my grandfather died. and for me, that ended that particular line of thinking. i cling to my faith as a comfort, believing that through it, i will one day again see my grandfather.
scribe is right. keep your options open, and explore. you'll never find something you totally agree with, i guarantee it. but there's got to be something close to it.
ooh. a christmas mass at the cathedral. one of these days i ought to try that. i'd imagine that easter is just as nice, and right around the corner too. in addition, the cathedral is a beautiful building inside as well. but if its the tour you want, don't go during services :)
It may be if you are pro-choice. I personally think that point of view is distasteful but I will hear it and not be offended by it personally.I think the Unitarians are pro-choice......I figure if i go to their service I 'll probably have to hear that point of view.
Freedom of speech and religion.........gotta love it!:)
30 minutes, huh? that's incredibly long in my (albeit limited) mass experience.
and scribe, i do have to agree with dal here. it is after all christmas. and i've got to believe that there are a lot of first-time attendees there. :)
of course i ought to talk. the day my sister was confirmed, when the church was loaded with guests from other churches watching their grandchildren/nieces/nephews get confirmed, it happened to coincide with the annual kick-off of the pledge card drive. i can think of a lot better sundays to do that than when half of the people in the church aren't members, and have no intention of becoming memmbers.
It may be if you are pro-choice. I personally think that point of view is distasteful but I will hear it and not be offended by it personally.I think the Unitarians are pro-choice......I figure if i go to their service I 'll probably have to hear that point of view.
Actually, I am not, in that I personally would not choose abortion. But that's not my point at all. It's not the viewpoint I object to -- it's the 30 minute gruesome, explicit lecture on Christmas day.
Abortion is the equivalent of murder. You really should think about that everyday. Since you probably don't what is the problem with 30 minutes on Christmas? What if Mary had aborted Jesus?
Why? I don't think about kids killing their sisters, or people jumping off bridges, or the mafia shooting people in the back of the head every day. Why should people be obsessed with murder?
Taking your argument to the (il)logical conclusion, if you choose not to think about the Enron collapse, you were complicit in its demise.
Totally illogical but that is what I expect from those that hide their heads in the sand. Enron happened it is not an ongoing concern. Abortions happen almost everyday and if you ignore it and refuse to speak out against it you are complicit in it. If you speak out against it at least an attempt is made to reduce such atrocities.
Business practices are an ongoing concern with respect to ALL other companies. Thus, if you don't think about their accounting practices and financial dealings every day, you will be responsible for the collapse of all of them.
that is what I expect from those that hide their heads in the sand.
Personal attacks are always an effective argument when there's nothing substantive there.
Business practices are an ongoing concern with respect to ALL other companies. Yes and we hear about it everyday don't we.Thus, if you don't think about their accounting practices and financial dealings every day, you will be responsible for the collapse of all of them. If you don't think about it it you could lose your investment. Besides the issue is the law and whether the practice of killing unborn babies should be allowed. If you don't speak up then you are complicit with the complacency and immorality that allows such things to happen.
Personal attacks are always an effective argument when there's nothing substantive there. There is plenty of substance. Get you head out of the sand. Or is it somewhere else? My guess it is somewhere else.
Here's a better one. A couple's parents are pressuring them to raise the grandchildren in the grandparents religion, even though the parents are not practicing members of that religion. Raise their children in a religion they don't believe in for the sake of the larger family harmony, or risk parental ire and possibly raise them with an empty sense of spirituality?
Frosti,I am assuming this is your family so..........
If the grandparents are true christians then how is it they don't respect the free will God gave us? That is first and foremost what we believe that you come to Christ by free choice and faith. To just raise your kids in something you don't believe and do not model is a huge mistake in my opinion why not be honest with the kids on the fact that you are searching? That to me is a more honest and respectful approach.
I don't understand these grandparents at all! You can't force faith! That is why God has been so patient with us since the beginning! He didn't create robots that just do his bidding! He wants you to find Him and choose Him on your own!
To do anything else is a lie!
Don't lie to your kids.........it's a bad precedent to set!:)
Just my opinion.:)
You can't force faith!
Sure you can, look how well it worked on me! LOL!
scribe, you said what i couldn't quite piece together! thanks.
Exactly my point Frosti! Hopefully you and runningchick being honest with your searching to your kids at least won't shut them out of options. That's what trying to force faith does and it isn't right!
AND it makes me mad,mad,mad when christians do it because they should know better!!!!
Tell the grandparents to lay off and point them back to the good book and tell them to take it up with God!........Oh and tell them this advice comes from a fellow christian!
and if the kids find faith on their own, all the better for them!
and if the kids find faith on their own, all the better for them!
It would sure make my job easier! However, I'm not sure how much spiritual exploration the average 2 1/2 year old is ready for...
well, it could happen. of course the vikes couldwin the super bowl too.
i'm just looking off toward the future, since this isn't an overnite proposition.
Still ranting............
I can't understand these grandparents! Where is their faith? We as christians believe that God has made us promises and will never leave us or forsake us........we are also taught to follow in His footsteps and try to practice that with others!
I think I heard runningchick say that one of her parents was a minister?
That is exactly why Jesus said to pray for our leaders in the church! I am sure they are nice folks........but they certainly don't use their faith.........except to beat up their own family!
MAD MAD MAD!!!!! AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!
Frosti,you and runningchick are doing well just searching. The only thing i do ask you to consider is all options including christainity to spite your family.People of true faith do not act that way!.....(..well we do sometimes as everbody does when they believe something strongly but we don't shove it down your throats!)
If you do explore christianity try a Free church........looser atmosphere and no pressure(I hope) also a Catholic mass at the Cathedral on Christmas day......no one will even bug you about it and it is a beautiful service!
I think I heard runningchick say that one of her parents was a minister?
No, no ministers in the family. Must have been creative hearing. It's actually my mother.
<irony> She's in the process of a spiritual awakening of sorts, and told me recently that she went to church when she was young to appease her parents, not through any particularly strong belief of her own
</irony>.
Well then she should be compassionate to what you are going through!
But, her arguement is that she did it, and now she's a believer. So, suck it up and sooner or later you'll submit and become a religious automaton. Insert evil chuckle here.
Raise their children in a religion they don't believe in for the sake of the larger family harmony, or risk parental ire and possibly raise them with an empty sense of spirituality?
I think a line has to be drawn when it comes to "grandparental interference." yes, their advice is helpful and they have experience, but the kids are YOURS. Maybe a good thing to do is forget about the grandparents' feelings, forget about your own feelings too, and ask yourself the age-old question: What would benefit my children? ("Won't someone please think of the children!")
Of course, their parents having a good relationship with the gparents is one factor. But when it comes to their finding their own spirituality, will they want to start at the place where their own parents are? I think so. They can be exposed to the gparents religion during visits and discussions, but they need not be raised in it to get an understanding of it and decide for themselves one day.
Well no wonder your running away screaming! Sounds like your a Borg! We will assimilate you resistance is fultile.........
Frosti,christians don't believe that trust me........
I think your mom has found joy and peace and wants the same for you and your family.I can understand that but her tactics are really bad!LOL!
also a Catholic mass at the Cathedral on Christmas day
I did that once. Biship Harry Flynn spoke on the evils of abortion for 30 minutes. Didn't make me want to convert. On Christmas day, a day of celebration, for ___'s sake!
("Won't someone please think of the children!")
::running and screaming::
By the way, mom has issued veiled threats that if we don't take 'em to church, she will! hahahaha
Dal, the point is not to convert or not but just have the point of view presented.
Catholics are pro-lifers........no big surprise there!LOL!
Catholics are pro-lifers........no big surprise there!
I know, but the context was so . . . distasteful.
Frosti? You need to tell your mommy your all grown up and a daddy of your own now.........LOL!
wow, frosti, i went to church as a kid for the same reason. mom and dad said i had to. i went to sunday school, and made my way through confirmation to satisfy them. i hated every minute of it, and thought it was a bunch of bs. then nearly 5 years ago, my grandfather died. and for me, that ended that particular line of thinking. i cling to my faith as a comfort, believing that through it, i will one day again see my grandfather.
scribe is right. keep your options open, and explore. you'll never find something you totally agree with, i guarantee it. but there's got to be something close to it.
ooh. a christmas mass at the cathedral. one of these days i ought to try that. i'd imagine that easter is just as nice, and right around the corner too. in addition, the cathedral is a beautiful building inside as well. but if its the tour you want, don't go during services :)
It may be if you are pro-choice. I personally think that point of view is distasteful but I will hear it and not be offended by it personally.I think the Unitarians are pro-choice......I figure if i go to their service I 'll probably have to hear that point of view.
Freedom of speech and religion.........gotta love it!:)
If the former, the solution to the question is not so difficult. If the latter, . . . .
30 minutes, huh? that's incredibly long in my (albeit limited) mass experience.
and scribe, i do have to agree with dal here. it is after all christmas. and i've got to believe that there are a lot of first-time attendees there. :)
of course i ought to talk. the day my sister was confirmed, when the church was loaded with guests from other churches watching their grandchildren/nieces/nephews get confirmed, it happened to coincide with the annual kick-off of the pledge card drive. i can think of a lot better sundays to do that than when half of the people in the church aren't members, and have no intention of becoming memmbers.
Damn it Dal! You always ask the good questions when I have to run kids!
I have an opinion on that (big surprise) but will have to share it later!
It may be if you are pro-choice. I personally think that point of view is distasteful but I will hear it and not be offended by it personally.I think the Unitarians are pro-choice......I figure if i go to their service I 'll probably have to hear that point of view.
Actually, I am not, in that I personally would not choose abortion. But that's not my point at all. It's not the viewpoint I object to -- it's the 30 minute gruesome, explicit lecture on Christmas day.
If the former, the solution to the question is not so difficult. If the latter, . . . .
It's the latter. And we're pro-choice btw. I was raised Lutheran, she was raised Methodist/Lapsed Catholic.
Abortion is the equivalent of murder. You really should think about that everyday. Since you probably don't what is the problem with 30 minutes on Christmas? What if Mary had aborted Jesus?
30 minutes, huh? that's incredibly long in my (albeit limited) mass experience.
Yes, it was VERY long. but maybe not 30 minutes. After all, it was THE bishop. Even the staunchest Catholics were squirming.
You really should think about that everyday
Why? I don't think about kids killing their sisters, or people jumping off bridges, or the mafia shooting people in the back of the head every day. Why should people be obsessed with murder?
You're free to think that every day Jethro. I choose not to.
You choose not to think about and that makes you complicit in the killings.
You choose not to think about and that makes you complicit in the killings.
Please. Taking your argument to the (il)logical conclusion, if you choose not to think about the Enron collapse, you were complicit in its demise.
You choose not to think about and that makes you complicit in the killings
And everybody said I would never have an impact. Yaay!
i wouldn't mess with her jethro. she's got a whip and she knows how to use ir!
of course some people say meat is murder too. i've no intention in giving up eating meat as a result of that.
Ares, just you thinking about my whip makes you complicit in using it!
i was kinda hoping it would. ;)
What about plants? Plants have feelings too, and by eating them you are complicit in their murder.
Taking your argument to the (il)logical conclusion, if you choose not to think about the Enron collapse, you were complicit in its demise.
Totally illogical but that is what I expect from those that hide their heads in the sand. Enron happened it is not an ongoing concern. Abortions happen almost everyday and if you ignore it and refuse to speak out against it you are complicit in it. If you speak out against it at least an attempt is made to reduce such atrocities.
Enron happened it is not an ongoing concern.
Business practices are an ongoing concern with respect to ALL other companies. Thus, if you don't think about their accounting practices and financial dealings every day, you will be responsible for the collapse of all of them.
that is what I expect from those that hide their heads in the sand.
Personal attacks are always an effective argument when there's nothing substantive there.
Enron happened it is not an ongoing concern.
not an ongoing concern, huh? how so? i still read about it in the paper in the morning. i still watch it on the news at nite.
Are they still operating the same way they did? No.
Business practices are an ongoing concern with respect to ALL other companies. Yes and we hear about it everyday don't we.Thus, if you don't think about their accounting practices and financial dealings every day, you will be responsible for the collapse of all of them. If you don't think about it it you could lose your investment. Besides the issue is the law and whether the practice of killing unborn babies should be allowed. If you don't speak up then you are complicit with the complacency and immorality that allows such things to happen.
Personal attacks are always an effective argument when there's nothing substantive there. There is plenty of substance. Get you head out of the sand. Or is it somewhere else? My guess it is somewhere else.
i think dal gave a nice rebuttal to that last statement, jethro.
Not at all. I think my reply to her rebutal was better.
Besides the issue is the law and whether the practice of killing unborn babies should be allowed.
So, really shouldn't that preacher man be lobbying congress instead of haranguing people on christmas?
I can give a really good personal attack when I am motivated. Saying someone has their head in the sand is nothing.
So, really shouldn't that preacher man be lobbying congress instead of haranguing people on christmas?
Maybe he does. But of course it is more effective to have a 100 or 1000 people lobbying congress than just one.