Separation of Church & State has nothing to do with a Church taking a moral stance on an issue.
Separation of church and state has everything to do with the pope (head of the Catholic church) telling judges (judicial employees of the State) not to grant divorces (a legal right of the people of the State).
From your post he said this specifically regarding lawyers.
True, but I merely intended to ask: What's the next step? Today, a new edict for lawyers. Tomorrow, a new edict for ???
If it is wrong for lawyers to "cooperate" in divorce, why isn't it wrong for other professions to "cooperate" in divorce. That's inconsistent.
And he said judges should also try to prevent divorce, although he acknowledged that this would be more difficult, as they could not be "conscientious objectors" refusing to hear cases.
This statement is a far cry from telling judges not to grant divorces.
If it is wrong for lawyers to "cooperate" in divorce, why isn't it wrong for other professions to "cooperate" in divorce. That's inconsistent.
It probably is but I can only make assumptions and I don't like to make slippery slope assumptions.
That, to me, is not a far cry from telling judges to prevent divorce.
slippery slope
Nice debate term! I forgot about that one!
I guess this is the point where we agree to disagree. To wrap this up on a feel-good note, we can all agree we are fortunate to have the right to choose our religion and our profession.
how so? i find it rather easy to stir up a hornet's nest and let a couple of other someone else's do the dirty work. case and point, the jethro and dal show right here the other day. :)
Well now that you all have moved past it........I'll put my two cents in anyway since it does involve my future career plans!
I first would like to say that I would like to read the entire doctrine before I comment but I will make do with an excerpt.
I understand what the Pope is saying here and the precedent he would like to set and I don't disgree with either one.
But the Catholic church does accept divorce in certain cases and does grant annulments(which is why I would like to read the entire article to see if this is consistant)
I am planning on becoming a family attorney and doing so I will be accepting divorce cases. I plan on be choosey to the clients I do accept however. In cases of abuse,criminal activity and unfaithfulness I can find no reason why the church would have a problem as those are the same grounds that annulments are made.
Bottom line for me is that I have to justtify my actions with God first then the church and for me this has got to be consistant. I respect our Pope but do not always agree with him,he is human also and is doing the best he can.
Thanks Dal! My husband sent me some info too! I will read them both! Just got to give me some time as it is an extra for now with all the stuff going on this week!:)
Not specifically, but you might want to go to the library so you don't have to spend a lot of money on books. They should have a pretty good selection.
Isn't there also a Troy McClure video that might be helpful? :)
Doctrine as defined MW online...DOCTRINE ; 1 archaic : TEACHING, INSTRUCTION 2 a : something that is taught b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief
I understand there are different doctrines relative to different organized religions and differen organizations...
But riddle me this....name one organization/religion that takes its doctrine wholly (not partly) from the pages of the Bible??
Most have excerpts or portions of doctrine that are based on some scriptural reference but many of the other parts of the doctrine are " man made" and in my opinion hold NO weight when it comes to how you live your life individually...
case in point....divorce...
Their is no scriptural fact or basis for excomminicating someone because of it...is there??? show me....
Jesus Christ lived and taught a life of GRACE as did the apostle paul and others....
if people could give up the guilt placed on them by organized religion...give up the self damnation...and live free under the 'GRACE' principals taught and shown in almost every parable by Christ..we would all be better off...
I can understand that one should 'fear God'...but to live in fear of ones religous organization...to live everyday wondering if oneself is worthy or not of the grace of God...is not right. Most of this is brought on by what?? Man made Doctrine that is so far off base it makes me sick....(my opinion of course)
No prob, Frosti. The Celestine Prophecy was the first book I read that I felt talked about "God" in a way that didn't feel like it was being handed down from the elders (with the agendas). And it doesn't really talk about God actually...more about energy and forces and stuff. Which is what I tend to think "God" really is.
One thing I like is that it was written by a first-time writer- just a regular dude who brought all his understandings together. James Redfiled has since risen to "guru" level, and I haven't found him quite as appealing since, but that's probably more my fault than his. He continued to build on what he wrought, and I've been content to set and ponder over what I picked up from his debut.
It's set as a fictional story, and the story itself has its weaknesses as a piece of fiction, but it's just meant to be a vehicle for the premises he came up with.
Personally I don't see anything wrong with the pope telling people not to cooperate in something the church sees as immoral. It could sort of be likened to being on any job where you feel you're being told to do something that you consider wrong. If your boss asked you to maybe go to a rival company and steal something from them, and you thought it was wrong to steal, could you justify it by saying, "I was just doing my job"? If I was a Roman Catholic, and I believed divorce was wrong, I don't know that I would go around helping people to obtain them. So I guess I would see the Pope's words not so much as a controversial order, but rather as a sort of guidance to help people live according to their beliefs.
see that's the thing allison. just because someone is roman catholic doesn't necessarily mean they agree with every aspect of church doctrine. not doing something because youbelieve it to be absolutely wrong is very different than not doing something because a religious doctrine that you do not necessarily agree with says not to.
." He said they "should avoid being personally involved in what could be understood as co-operating in divorce."
From your post he said this specifically regarding lawyers.
i'd imagine, dal, that if it were up to the pope, church and state in this country wouldn't be separated.
That's why I love this country.
Separation of Church & State has nothing to do with a Church taking a moral stance on an issue.
Separation of church and state has everything to do with the pope (head of the Catholic church) telling judges (judicial employees of the State) not to grant divorces (a legal right of the people of the State).
From your post he said this specifically regarding lawyers.
True, but I merely intended to ask: What's the next step? Today, a new edict for lawyers. Tomorrow, a new edict for ???
If it is wrong for lawyers to "cooperate" in divorce, why isn't it wrong for other professions to "cooperate" in divorce. That's inconsistent.
And he said judges should also try to prevent divorce, although he acknowledged that this would be more difficult, as they could not be "conscientious objectors" refusing to hear cases.
This statement is a far cry from telling judges not to grant divorces.
If it is wrong for lawyers to "cooperate" in divorce, why isn't it wrong for other professions to "cooperate" in divorce. That's inconsistent.
It probably is but I can only make assumptions and I don't like to make slippery slope assumptions.
maybe its just me being overly-paranoid, jt, but i make slippery slope assumptions all the time.
he said judges should also try to prevent divorce
That, to me, is not a far cry from telling judges to prevent divorce.
slippery slope
Nice debate term! I forgot about that one!
I guess this is the point where we agree to disagree. To wrap this up on a feel-good note, we can all agree we are fortunate to have the right to choose our religion and our profession.
I just had to address that.
Nice debate term! I forgot about that one!
Wow, I used a debate term? I've never even taken a debate class.
I generally hate debating. I usually see it as a waste of time and effort.
I do however enjoy getting a rise out of people
:-)
I do however enjoy getting a rise out of people
see. so you're an instigator. lol.
see. so you're an instigator.
To some degree, yes.
To a large degree, yes. ;-)
forget about the degrees. i am. plain and simple.
To a large degree, yes. ;-)
Give a guy a break.
I'm in therapy and working on this issue.
you're just jealous cuz you're not as big an instigator as we are.
No no, nurture your instigative side! Find a 12 step program to allow you to instigate more.
do they have 12-step programs for that????? where can i find one?
OK....what am I wearing??
actually the debate of the day in here just cooled down a bit. sorry you missed it.
No no, nurture your instigative side!
On no, that makes life too difficult.
how so? i find it rather easy to stir up a hornet's nest and let a couple of other someone else's do the dirty work. case and point, the jethro and dal show right here the other day. :)
OK....what am I wearing??
Whoa, is this gonna cost me $2.99/minute?
:-)
do what for a couple of years? instigate?
do what for a couple of years? instigate?
Yeah but, specifically in here.
Frosti...pass the hookah...
I have no idea what you're talking about.
<looking innocent>
Is anyone else feeling like they are in a U2 video?
Well now that you all have moved past it........I'll put my two cents in anyway since it does involve my future career plans!
I first would like to say that I would like to read the entire doctrine before I comment but I will make do with an excerpt.
I understand what the Pope is saying here and the precedent he would like to set and I don't disgree with either one.
But the Catholic church does accept divorce in certain cases and does grant annulments(which is why I would like to read the entire article to see if this is consistant)
I am planning on becoming a family attorney and doing so I will be accepting divorce cases. I plan on be choosey to the clients I do accept however. In cases of abuse,criminal activity and unfaithfulness I can find no reason why the church would have a problem as those are the same grounds that annulments are made.
Bottom line for me is that I have to justtify my actions with God first then the church and for me this has got to be consistant.
I respect our Pope but do not always agree with him,he is human also and is doing the best he can.
http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=topnews&StoryID=549766#
That's just one of many articles.
Thanks Dal! My husband sent me some info too! I will read them both! Just got to give me some time as it is an extra for now with all the stuff going on this week!:)
Just got to give me some time as it is an extra for now with all the stuff going on this week!:)
Yeah, focus! We can renew discussion whenever. I hope there won't be any French or Russian judges!
You go girl...I agree 100%
WHat does the friggin pope have to do with your Daily Diety?? Nothing ...Not a darn thing....
I could really get cranked up on organized religion....
anyone??
No s**t!!
I could really get cranked up on organized religion....
Crank away!
BTW, any suggestions/thoughts about reading material if I wanna embark on this voyage of self discovery that I seem to owe my children, if not myself?
... any suggestions/thoughts about reading material if I wanna embark on this voyage ...
he does ask the tough questions, doesn't he?
any suggestions/thoughts about reading material
Not specifically, but you might want to go to the library so you don't have to spend a lot of money on books. They should have a pretty good selection.
Isn't there also a Troy McClure video that might be helpful? :)
First of all
Doctrine as defined MW online...DOCTRINE ; 1 archaic : TEACHING, INSTRUCTION
2 a : something that is taught b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief
I understand there are different doctrines relative to different organized religions and differen organizations...
But riddle me this....name one organization/religion that takes its doctrine wholly (not partly) from the pages of the Bible??
Most have excerpts or portions of doctrine that are based on some scriptural reference but many of the other parts of the doctrine are " man made" and in my opinion hold NO weight when it comes to how you live your life individually...
case in point....divorce...
Their is no scriptural fact or basis for excomminicating someone because of it...is there??? show me....
Jesus Christ lived and taught a life of GRACE as did the apostle paul and others....
if people could give up the guilt placed on them by organized religion...give up the self damnation...and live free under the 'GRACE' principals taught and shown in almost every parable by Christ..we would all be better off...
I can understand that one should 'fear God'...but to live in fear of ones religous organization...to live everyday wondering if oneself is worthy or not of the grace of God...is not right. Most of this is brought on by what?? Man made Doctrine that is so far off base it makes me sick....(my opinion of course)
Who is to say who is right or wrong???
Who is to say who is right or wrong???
Well I'm right of course.
And everyone should do as I say!
I wish everyone else would just realize this.
:-)
he does ask the tough questions, doesn't he?
If not me, who?
Who is to say who is right or wrong??? Well I'm right of course. And everyone should do as I say! I wish everyone else would just realize this.
Dal's ::touching nose with index finger::
::no! not picking! "touching"::
The Celestine Prophecy. The best non-denominational exploration of spirituality I've read in a while.
I respect other peoples choices and ultimately respect the choices they make. I HATE the shove it down your throat aspects of many religions....
Most of the wars going on right now on the global scale are in someway driven by religion or ones belief in his/her god....
back to the idea of 'who is wrong or who is right'....can't people just be accepting of other peoples ideas and pholosophies on life and existence???
"You choose not to think about and that makes you complicit in the killings "
It's postings like that that only make my point more clear...
LOVE RULES
Lenny: You got to let love rule.
BTW, thanks for the title Lance.
No prob, Frosti. The Celestine Prophecy was the first book I read that I felt talked about "God" in a way that didn't feel like it was being handed down from the elders (with the agendas). And it doesn't really talk about God actually...more about energy and forces and stuff. Which is what I tend to think "God" really is.
I just ordered me a copy from amazon....thanks lance...i will let you know what i find!!
One thing I like is that it was written by a first-time writer- just a regular dude who brought all his understandings together. James Redfiled has since risen to "guru" level, and I haven't found him quite as appealing since, but that's probably more my fault than his. He continued to build on what he wrought, and I've been content to set and ponder over what I picked up from his debut.
It's set as a fictional story, and the story itself has its weaknesses as a piece of fiction, but it's just meant to be a vehicle for the premises he came up with.
And it doesn't really talk about God actually...more about energy and forces and stuff.
Get a physics text it'll explain that better.
jethro you're too much.
jethro you're too much.
Not sure what he's too much of, but definitely too much.
Time to chime in again I guess.
Personally I don't see anything wrong with the pope telling people not to cooperate in something the church sees as immoral. It could sort of be likened to being on any job where you feel you're being told to do something that you consider wrong. If your boss asked you to maybe go to a rival company and steal something from them, and you thought it was wrong to steal, could you justify it by saying, "I was just doing my job"? If I was a Roman Catholic, and I believed divorce was wrong, I don't know that I would go around helping people to obtain them. So I guess I would see the Pope's words not so much as a controversial order, but rather as a sort of guidance to help people live according to their beliefs.
see that's the thing allison. just because someone is roman catholic doesn't necessarily mean they agree with every aspect of church doctrine. not doing something because youbelieve it to be absolutely wrong is very different than not doing something because a religious doctrine that you do not necessarily agree with says not to.