One would have to be blind to not see that the concrete emphasis on "retaliation" that all sides seem to be solely fixated on in their quarrels with others is wrong and futile.
A large part of the blame for the deterioration in global relations since 9/11 has to be placed squarely on George Bush.
I am always amazed at how "Armchair- Theologians" like Jethro(who believe that theirs is the only interpretation of the Bible that is valid), can condemn and excoriate anyone who does not conform to their unrelenting and uncharitable approach to spirituality.
I hardly do this. I generally speak on ONE issue and that is abortion. And my MAIN argument against it is based on logic.
There are those Jethro, who believe that they will be first, but who will instead be last to see the Kingdom of God.
I believe no such thing. But my guess is that you won't make it, fold, regardless if I do or not.
However, whether or not God will grant you entrance to the Kingdom is HIS choice, not anyone elses, not even to wager a guess. You would do well to allow yourself the humility to admit that.
That is what I wrote. I made a prediction that is all. Kind of like predicting the winner of the Super Bowl.
'Bill - Fold' - 02:44am Feb 24, 2002 PST (#88 of 119) Nothing But The Best
I left for this area in early Oct., Bud. My wife and I live here 7 months a year now. Outside of yesterday, when we got over 4 inches of rain in a day, ithas been a really nice, calm and mild winter.
Sound familiar?
Looks like MN has had about the same.
I have never been to South Beach in all the years I have come down here, not once. I have to get there to check it out!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'Bill - Fold' - 02:46am Feb 24, 2002 PST (#89 of 119) Nothing But The Best
After REPO's victory over Sloop, I figured we'd see him on TV with that reporter asking, "Now that you've won, where you going next"...?
"I'm Going To Disneyworld"...!!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE REPOMAN - 05:41am Feb 24, 2002 PST (#90 of 119) THE SLOOP SLAYER
I could see you two having lunch on South Beach. Maybe at the Clevelander or the News Cafe. Sitting in the sun, checking out the models as they walked by.
Jethro, here's a little something about the faith of our founding fathers.
James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." From: The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785
And it doesn't mean that the principles of Christianity weren't deeply imbedded in Mr. Madison or that they were not a guiding force, although not specifically acknowledged source, in his drafting of the Constitution. He pulled a Doris Kearns Goodwin!
Most of the founding fathers were not christians. Why do you think they put in that little thing about freedom of religion. It's also freedom fromreligion.
Most of the founding fathers were not christians. Uh Yes they were.Why do you think they put in that little thing about freedom of religion. Because of the Church of England imposed its will on the Brits.It's also freedom from religion. Uh no it isn't. "Congress shall make no law respecting the ESTABLISHMENT of religion, or the free excercise therof;..." There is no gurantee to be free from religion. It is your kind of thinking or the lack thereof, frosti, that is subverting the Constitution.
Right there, my man. If I choose not to exercise a religion, that is my constitutional right. If it's good enough for George, it's good enough for me. Freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion.
George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance. From: George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)
No one is compelling you to do anything, frosti. But maybe you should have been compelled to read history and not the revisionist kind you seem to beleve in.
Here's the two mentions of god I see in the declaration jethro:
Laws of Nature and of Nature's God
endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights
I didn't say they were not spiritual, I said that many of them were not religious, and most were not Christian. Heck, looking at the phrase "Nature's God" they could be pagans, out worshipping the trees! Bet that makes your blood run cold. hee hee! The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments. Thomas Paine, for example:
Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence: I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
You're supposed to be arguing against me Jethro, not with me. In both of those references, the wording is carefully done to avoid any reference to Christ, christianity, or any specific religion for that matter. Here's pres. #2's views:
John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"
It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." From: The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.
You're supposed to be arguing against me Jethro, not with me. In both of those references, the wording is carefully done to avoid any reference to Christ, christianity, or any specific religion for that matter.
Have you thought maybe they used these words to be inclusive? In your world does God only refer to the Christian deity?
You can find little pieces all you want. The overwhelming evidence is that this country was a Christian country and the Founding Fathers recognized this. The people they refer to in the Consititution were CHRISTIAN people.
You can find little pieces all you want. The overwhelming evidence is that this country was a Christian country and the Founding Fathers recognized this. The people they refer to in the Consititution were CHRISTIAN people.
You've outdone yourself this time Andy. Where does it say anywhere in the constitution that it was written exclusively for Xtians? Try not to forget the last time you played this hand, you didn't do so well then either. Maybe Ernest can try and bail you out with his backwards "suthun" wizDUMB.
The overwhelming evidence is that this country was a Christian country and the Founding Fathers recognized this. The people they refer to in the Consititution were CHRISTIAN people.
OK Jethro, here's your time to shine. I've been backing my assertations with documented quotes from the founding fathers themselves. Show me some of this overwhelming evidence you speak of. Here's James Madison:
James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." From: The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.
What an incredibly ominous, dangerous, disheartening weekend.
India torn apart by Muslim vs. Hindu mass bloodshed.
Israelis and Palestinians taking their eye-for-an-eye, hateful violence to unprecdented, horrifying levels.
U.S. forces in Afghanistan desperately fighting for their lives against a resurgent Taliban/al-Quida.
Edwin Starr certainly had it right:
"War -- what is it good for? Absolutely nothing..."
It keeps the population down.
<
<It keeps the population down.>>
LOL!
(Waits for the George Carlin-esque protests about how we only wage war on brown people.)
Look at the tinder-box status of the world today.
One would have to be blind to not see that the concrete emphasis on "retaliation" that all sides seem to be solely fixated on in their quarrels with others is wrong and futile.
A large part of the blame for the deterioration in global relations since 9/11 has to be placed squarely on George Bush.
That man is a gasoline pourer.
I am always amazed at how "Armchair- Theologians" like Jethro(who believe that theirs is the only interpretation of the Bible that is valid), can condemn and excoriate anyone who does not conform to their unrelenting and uncharitable approach to spirituality.
I hardly do this. I generally speak on ONE issue and that is abortion. And my MAIN argument against it is based on logic.
There are those Jethro, who believe that they will be first, but who will instead be last to see the Kingdom of God.
I believe no such thing. But my guess is that you won't make it, fold, regardless if I do or not.
However, whether or not God will grant you entrance to the Kingdom is HIS choice, not anyone elses, not even to wager a guess. You would do well to allow yourself the humility to admit that.
That is what I wrote. I made a prediction that is all. Kind of like predicting the winner of the Super Bowl.
Yeah Jethro...well my belief is that you are a one-dimentional fool, with dilusions of grandeur and acuteness.
Just can't lay off the personal attacks can you, fold.
Identity politics is an essential part of what defines current gender issues, race relations and the gay and lesbian movement. It is applied in a self-righteous manner to the pettiest of events.
"Yeah Jethro...well my belief is that you are a one-dimentional fool, with dilusions of grandeur and acuteness."
Well, THX...
How is this "peace" thing working out?
'Bill - Fold' - 02:44am Feb 24, 2002 PST (#88 of 119)
Nothing But The Best
I left for this area in early Oct., Bud. My wife and I live here 7 months a year now. Outside of yesterday, when we got over 4 inches of rain in a day, ithas been a really nice, calm and mild winter.
Sound familiar?
Looks like MN has had about the same.
I have never been to South Beach in all the years I have come down here, not once. I have to get there to check it out!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Bill - Fold' - 02:46am Feb 24, 2002 PST (#89 of 119)
Nothing But The Best
After REPO's victory over Sloop, I figured we'd see him on TV with that reporter asking, "Now that you've won, where you going next"...?
"I'm Going To Disneyworld"...!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE REPOMAN - 05:41am Feb 24, 2002 PST (#90 of 119)
THE SLOOP SLAYER
It was old news, Bill...
It's been seen before...
and most likely will be seen again...
now that he's come back out of hiding...
ROFLMFAO...
Yeah, fold....you too.
Definately a better way to define it.
I'll be joining you in a month.
Maybe we could do lunch?
Toodleoo.
I could see you two having lunch on South Beach. Maybe at the Clevelander or the News Cafe. Sitting in the sun, checking out the models as they walked by.
I think two retired people would have a wonderful time. We have a good deal in common...
Shuffleboard.
War stories.
I'll be getting a check now too...
Pleasant political discussions...
Sharing our time in the sun....
Oh yes....
I'm looking forward to the confro....er....
the collisio...er....the comrodarie.
Soon you'll both have Janet Reno as governor.
<SHIVER>
I guess you don't read the polls, Rick...
I've got as much chance of waking up with a 32" waist as Janet does in becoming governor of Florida.
That old dyke should just move in with Donna Shalala and get it over with.
Come on, fold...whadda ya say...
We'll be pals...
I'll comb out your pony tail...
Can I count on it?
Whadda ya say?
LMAO.
LOL...I dig...
So much love in the room it brings tears to my eyes.
<sniff>
Good to see you again, Dan.
Soon you'll both have Janet Reno as governor.
She may not even get her party's nomination.
She won't.
She couldn't get elected dog catcher.
The democrats are full of it
Sorry if I offended anyone!
Sorry if I offended anyone!
Don't worry about it. You offend me daily.
:-)
Whew......
I thought you were looking at me when you said that....
Between those pipes of yours and having to look up at you so high...
I'm getting a crick in my neck and the trembling has ruined my knees......
)-)
Hang in there, JT...
LOL
The court apparently believes our system of government was created out of thin air and bears no relationship to the faith of our fathers.
They must be in league with that crowd who thinks the NAZI's didn't kill the Jews.
Here is a truly radical idea: Allow anyone who has graduated from an accredited four-year college with a major in his or her subject area, and who has passed the teacher certification test, to teach. Is that so hard?
Jethro, here's a little something about the faith of our founding fathers.
James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785
Jethro...
There are a lot of people that have graduated from an accredited university that can't teach a lick.
There are teachers teaching now that bore a class silly.
I say that someone must have an aptitude to teach and be rated by their peers and faculty leaders to continue.
Heck, I know of people without degrees that are marvelous role models and teachers. Why should a degree be a stumbling block?
I say we get the BEST teachers and check on their ability which should be measured by the success of their students, not a popularity vote.
And it doesn't mean that the principles of Christianity weren't deeply imbedded in Mr. Madison or that they were not a guiding force, although not specifically acknowledged source, in his drafting of the Constitution. He pulled a Doris Kearns Goodwin!
Isn't she a liberal too?
Most of the founding fathers were not christians. Why do you think they put in that little thing about freedom of religion. It's also freedom fromreligion.
Most of the founding fathers were not christians. Uh Yes they were.Why do you think they put in that little thing about freedom of religion. Because of the Church of England imposed its will on the Brits.It's also freedom from religion. Uh no it isn't. "Congress shall make no law respecting the ESTABLISHMENT of religion, or the free excercise therof;..." There is no gurantee to be free from religion. It is your kind of thinking or the lack thereof, frosti, that is subverting the Constitution.
or the free excercise therof;..."
Right there, my man. If I choose not to exercise a religion, that is my constitutional right. If it's good enough for George, it's good enough for me. Freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion.
George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance. From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)
So all of these men weren't Christians, frosti?
No one is compelling you to do anything, frosti. But maybe you should have been compelled to read history and not the revisionist kind you seem to beleve in.
Here's the two mentions of god I see in the declaration jethro:
Laws of Nature and of Nature's God
endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights
I didn't say they were not spiritual, I said that many of them were not religious, and most were not Christian. Heck, looking at the phrase "Nature's God" they could be pagans, out worshipping the trees! Bet that makes your blood run cold. hee hee! The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments. Thomas Paine, for example:
Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence: I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From:
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)
frosti is right, you know, jethro. believe it or not.
You need to read some history too, ares. Because you are wrong.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
I don't see Thomas Paine's name on the Declaration, frosti.
You're supposed to be arguing against me Jethro, not with me. In both of those references, the wording is carefully done to avoid any reference to Christ, christianity, or any specific religion for that matter. Here's pres. #2's views:
John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"
It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.
You're supposed to be arguing against me Jethro, not with me. In both of those references, the wording is carefully done to avoid any reference to Christ, christianity, or any specific religion for that matter.
Have you thought maybe they used these words to be inclusive? In your world does God only refer to the Christian deity?
You can find little pieces all you want. The overwhelming evidence is that this country was a Christian country and the Founding Fathers recognized this. The people they refer to in the Consititution were CHRISTIAN people.
if christianity were that important, jethro, then why do we have the freedom of religion clause in the first amendment?
You've outdone yourself this time Andy. Where does it say anywhere in the constitution that it was written exclusively for Xtians? Try not to forget the last time you played this hand, you didn't do so well then either. Maybe Ernest can try and bail you out with his backwards "suthun" wizDUMB.
The overwhelming evidence is that this country was a Christian country and the Founding Fathers recognized this. The people they refer to in the Consititution were CHRISTIAN people.
OK Jethro, here's your time to shine. I've been backing my assertations with documented quotes from the founding fathers themselves. Show me some of this overwhelming evidence you speak of. Here's James Madison:
James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.