Frosti, are you trying to say the usual group that fall under the name "Founding Fathers" were not religious men, or had views on religion that would make them -- for lack of a better word -- indifferent?
So what does that mean today?
If you deny that the United States is a predominantly Christian nation, you're igoring the obvious. Walk three blocks in any direction, and you run into a church.
People who pull these quotes are like the people who put the little Darwin fish on the back of their car.It's done to tweak people who put the Christian fish on the back of their car.
But when it comes right down to it, they're both people who are prone to announcing their moral, political or social beliefs on the bumper of their car.
Rick, I'm just trying to provide a counterpoint to the assertation that this nation was founded on christianity. You're correct that christianity is currently #1 on the charts. There's some folks who think that this means everybody should believe the way they do. And those people are the most fun to "tweak," since any deviation from what they were taught in sunday school is not well met.
Founded on Christianity? It was at the heart of the education of all or nearly all of the founding fathers. The porinciples of Christianity was imbedded in the Constitution while not directly alluded to.
Founded on Christianity? It was at the heart of the education of all or nearly all of the founding fathers. The porinciples of Christianity was imbedded in the Constitution while not directly alluded to.
Really? Where did you read this? All that townhall stuff about the supreme court doesn't prove a thing. What that proves is how much to the right the country has shifted since it's inception. "In God We Trust" was never printed on our currency until the 50's during the McCarthy era. The supreme court building was not built in the 1700's when our forefathers were around, but in 1935. Thomas Jefferson again:
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."
The country has cosnistently shifted to the left from the beginning of the the nation in 1789. The leftward movement picked up stam after the Civil War and hit its peak in the 1950's and 60's.
Thomas Jefferson says whatever he said but that doesn't mean he was not brought up a Christian and his values were Christian values which are apparent in the Declaration of Independence.
I think The Christian Right movement that started surfacing during the 90s culture wars and impeachment is essentially gone. People like Falwell and Robertson (if we can agree they're among the leaders) have discredited themselves of late. Falwell pretty much iced his future influence in public life when he said 9/11 occurred because God was angry at the United States.
The current president has placed the issues of the Christian right on the back burner.
Thomas Jefferson says whatever he said but that doesn't mean he was not brought up a Christian and his values were Christian values which are apparent in the Declaration of Independence.
just because you're raised christian doesn't mean you're gonna cling to christianity after you're grown up. his values may have been christian, and christian values arevery much apparent in the declaration of independence. i'll give you that. but the constitution of this country was written to prevent this country from becoming a christian iran. it was written to ensure that people could choose whatever religion they desire, and worship who they want, when they want, and how they want. period.
We will not consent to being sacrificed to global poverty caused by the selfish commercial predation of Western elites.
We won't allow ourselves to unrelentingly be shot and bombed by your "anti-terror" response to our necessary uprisings and actions intended to end our exploitation and oppression.
For every one of the "evil doers" whom you brag about in your Washington or Jerusalem press conferences of having killed -- in a sanitized video-game sense that obscures the bloody horror of murdering, more often than not, innocents rather than combatants -- one hundred replacements will rise to fill the void.
The Spirit of Justice can't be conquered by a Lust for Dollars.
The Intifada is universal, and irrepressible.
We are the moral weight of wronged humanity leaning against an ethical house of cards that no amount of indiscriminate "fire power" can keep from collapsing.
You are the accumulated sins of yesterday desperately trying to extend your unwelcome stay.
We are the bright future your dark impulses can't hold in abeyance.
"Until the 1930s and 1940s, the Jewish underground in Palestine was described as 'terrorist.' Then something happened: around 1942, as news of the Holocaust was spreading, a certain liberal sympathy with the Jewish people began to emerge in the Western world. By 1944, the terrorists of Palestine, who were Zionists, suddenly began being described as 'freedom fighters.' If you look in history books you can find at least two Israeli prime ministers, including Menachem Begin, appearing in 'Wanted' posters saying, TERRORISTS, REWARD [this much]. The highest reward I have seen offered was 100,000 British pounds for the head of Menachem Begin, the terrorist (Yitzhak Shamir is the other)." (Eqbal Ahmad, "Terrorism: Theirs & Ours, Seven Stories," 2001, p. 11.)
just because you're raised christian doesn't mean you're gonna cling to christianity after you're grown up.
It is there and you can't get rid of it. At least that is what all the psychobabbelists say about all the bad things that hapen to you when you are a child.
his values may have been christian, and christian values are very much apparent in the declaration of independence. i'll give you that. but the constitution of this country was written to prevent this country from becoming a christian iran. No. It was there to prevent the feds from establishing any church. It wasn't put there to prevent states from establsihing a state church. There were several states with state churches at the time.it was written to ensure that people could choose whatever religion they desire, and worship who they want, when they want, and how they want. period. Again no. It was there to prevent only the feds from establishing a church.
There were state churches at the time the Constitution was adopted. At least one lasted into the 1830's or '40's. I can't remember exactly which one. I think it was Massachusetts or Connectitcut. It is a hopeful sign that you are actually going to look something up instead of relying on propaganda by people with an agenda.
I post the Townhall articles because they are pretty well written and it saves me time rewriting my ideas. If you would research the church state issue you will see that my position is accurate. If you don't believe it all you have to do is look at the first word of the First Amendment. It says "CONGRESS shall make no law...." It wasn't until the 1940's or so some person either with an agenda or lack of reason applied that to the states. Congress doesn't mean the states, it means Congress. That is what it always meant.
"If you declare war against the Palestinians thinking that you can solve the problem by seeing how many Palestinians can be killed, I don't know that that leads usanywhere." -COLIN L. POWELL, secretary of state.
just so ya know, bill i'm not a lawyer. ok an armchair lawyer, but not actually a lawyer. but findlaw is a very interesting site to look around in. i've used it quite a bit for other purposes.
now jethro, back to the discussion at hand earlier. "state" churches were made unconstitutional by the 14th amendment which we've discussed here many times.
from section 1:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;
which applies the first amendment to the individual states. unless of course the various arguments you've made using the 14th in the past become null and void.
What does the first amendment say? "It says Congress can make no law..." It already applied to everyone. What has happened is that liberals with an agenda have instituted baseless interpretation to apply it to states and local governments. Furthermore, the 14th amendment was forced down the throats of the nation by a post war Congress. All the states that had seceeded were required to pass the amendment whether they wanted to or not. This wouldn't have been necessary except therre wasn't enough of the Union states that thought the amendment was that great either.
The 14th amendment while it appears to be written with good intentions was used to subvert the intentions of its drafters. It was simply a power grab by the federal government when many of the states were at the mercy of it.
How do you know the intentions of the drafters? Maybe it's working perfectly and how it was intended. Maybe it's the conservatives with their own agenda that are spewing forth baseless interpretations.
that's not what you've been saying jethro. you've been preaching that states have had the right to establish a state church. now suddenly they don't because the first amendment restricts states in the same way it restricts congress???
Obviously you don't understand what I am saying. That does not surprise me. What applied to everyone is that CONGRESS couldn't pass a law establishing religion. So after the 14th amendment passed it should not change anything because Congress still couldn't establish religion. It is a big leap to say the first amendment means legislatures can't establish such laws. It is an even bigger leap to say school boards and teachers can't say a prayer or teach any religion because they don't even have the ability to make law.
As for privilges and immunities that doesn't apply. What privilege is abridged? What immunity is abridged?
No they won't. If there is the feds and the state can't control prayer in school the parents and the school boards will. Power by the people. I thought liberals approved of such things.
Yes they will. Islam is growing exponentially my friend. Between the war on terrorism and the Israli war on the Palestinians and the Indian war with Pakistan, they be dropping as fast as they produce them!
If there is the feds and the state can't control prayer in school the parents and the school boards will.
My point exactly
And there is a problem with this? How?
I wouldn't know, I'm not a Liberal. Do you approve of such things? JT you ARE a liberal!!!!
Jethro, why aren't you on the Supreme Court? Because I'm not a politician.
and jethro, you completely missed my point. once the 14th amendment was put into place, it took the first amendment restrictions that had been placed on congress and applied them to the individual states. of course its a big leap to apply the first amendment to the individual states. but the 14th amendment seems to me to make it apply thereto. a quick search at findlaw "freedom from speech" reveals many many cases in which the first and 14th amendments are concurrently used in restricting that which the legislatures of the states may prevent.
i'm making the assumption that since you followed us over from the water cooler, you're from minnesotan. now if we can't agree that the individial states may establish a state church, i'll point you to article 1, section 16 of the minnesota state constitution:
Sec. 16. FREEDOM OF CONSCIENCE; NO PREFERENCE TO BE GIVEN TO ANY RELIGIOUS ESTABLISHMENT OR MODE OF WORSHIP.The enumeration of rights in this constitution shall not deny or impair others retained by and inherent in the people. The right of every man to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience shall never be infringed; nor shall any man be compelled to attend, erect or support any place of worship, or to maintain any religious or ecclesiastical ministry, against his consent; nor shall any control of or interference with the rights of conscience be permitted, or any preference be given by law to any religious establishment or mode of worship; but the liberty of conscience hereby secured shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness or justify practices inconsistent with the peace or safety of the state, nor shall any money be drawn from the treasury for the benefit of any religious societies or religious or theological seminaries.
And that is fine. My point is the feds weren't intended to have that power to prevent it. The Courts just insit on legislating rather than interpreting.
under the constitution as it stands today, and if we have to go that far to get it into your head, the constitutions of the various states which have all subsequently applied the restrictions on congress to their own legislatures, we will nothave any sort of government sanctioned religion in this country. not without amending 51 constitutions. and if that happens, vancouver's looking like a good place to go live.
as for my statement about you not being a lawyer, consider it withdrawn.
Is there a point to all this?
Frosti, are you trying to say the usual group that fall under the name "Founding Fathers" were not religious men, or had views on religion that would make them -- for lack of a better word -- indifferent?
So what does that mean today?
If you deny that the United States is a predominantly Christian nation, you're igoring the obvious. Walk three blocks in any direction, and you run into a church.
People who pull these quotes are like the people who put the little Darwin fish on the back of their car.It's done to tweak people who put the Christian fish on the back of their car.
But when it comes right down to it, they're both people who are prone to announcing their moral, political or social beliefs on the bumper of their car.
Rick, I'm just trying to provide a counterpoint to the assertation that this nation was founded on christianity. You're correct that christianity is currently #1 on the charts. There's some folks who think that this means everybody should believe the way they do. And those people are the most fun to "tweak," since any deviation from what they were taught in sunday school is not well met.
DuaneBerry were you the inspiration for that crazy character from X-Files? Seems like you might have been.
Founded on Christianity? It was at the heart of the education of all or nearly all of the founding fathers. The porinciples of Christianity was imbedded in the Constitution while not directly alluded to.
As if we didn't know they were lying.
Rick, I'm just trying to provide a counterpoint to the assertation that this nation was founded on christianity.
You can try but you are wrong? Where did you learn your history Revisionist U?
More Clintonian deeds go unpunished
Gun control has reached absurd limits in America. In Michigan, an 8-year-old boy is being prosecuted for pointing a toy gun at three other youngsters and threatening to shoot them.
Yikes, Jethro must have been going through withdrawl.
In reality, the Ten Commandments is central to our understanding of inalienable rights and government based on law. Absent Sinai, there would have been no Mayflower Compact, Declaration of Independence or Constitution -- in short, no America.
It was so good it needed to be posted one more time.
Founded on Christianity? It was at the heart of the education of all or nearly all of the founding fathers. The porinciples of Christianity was imbedded in the Constitution while not directly alluded to.
Really? Where did you read this? All that townhall stuff about the supreme court doesn't prove a thing. What that proves is how much to the right the country has shifted since it's inception. "In God We Trust" was never printed on our currency until the 50's during the McCarthy era. The supreme court building was not built in the 1700's when our forefathers were around, but in 1935. Thomas Jefferson again:
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."
Did you read the article posted on #551? That is the reality and you can deny it all you want but it doesn't make your position correct.
The country hasn't shifted to the right sin 1789. What utter nonsense.
The country has cosnistently shifted to the left from the beginning of the the nation in 1789. The leftward movement picked up stam after the Civil War and hit its peak in the 1950's and 60's.
Thomas Jefferson says whatever he said but that doesn't mean he was not brought up a Christian and his values were Christian values which are apparent in the Declaration of Independence.
I think The Christian Right movement that started surfacing during the 90s culture wars and impeachment is essentially gone. People like Falwell and Robertson (if we can agree they're among the leaders) have discredited themselves of late. Falwell pretty much iced his future influence in public life when he said 9/11 occurred because God was angry at the United States.
The current president has placed the issues of the Christian right on the back burner.
Report: Evidence was sufficient to prosecute Clinton in Lewinsky case
Thomas Jefferson says whatever he said but that doesn't mean he was not brought up a Christian and his values were Christian values which are apparent in the Declaration of Independence.
just because you're raised christian doesn't mean you're gonna cling to christianity after you're grown up. his values may have been christian, and christian values arevery much apparent in the declaration of independence. i'll give you that. but the constitution of this country was written to prevent this country from becoming a christian iran. it was written to ensure that people could choose whatever religion they desire, and worship who they want, when they want, and how they want. period.
We are the world.
We are the children.
We are the voice and shape of tomorrow.
We will not consent to being sacrificed to global poverty caused by the selfish commercial predation of Western elites.
We won't allow ourselves to unrelentingly be shot and bombed by your "anti-terror" response to our necessary uprisings and actions intended to end our exploitation and oppression.
For every one of the "evil doers" whom you brag about in your Washington or Jerusalem press conferences of having killed -- in a sanitized video-game sense that obscures the bloody horror of murdering, more often than not, innocents rather than combatants -- one hundred replacements will rise to fill the void.
The Spirit of Justice can't be conquered by a Lust for Dollars.
The Intifada is universal, and irrepressible.
We are the moral weight of wronged humanity leaning against an ethical house of cards that no amount of indiscriminate "fire power" can keep from collapsing.
You are the accumulated sins of yesterday desperately trying to extend your unwelcome stay.
We are the bright future your dark impulses can't hold in abeyance.
Victory is certain!
--The "New" New Kids on the Block
http://commondreams.org/views02/0306-03.htm
ISRAEL's ARMY OF PEACE
"Until the 1930s and 1940s, the Jewish underground in Palestine was described as 'terrorist.' Then something happened: around 1942, as news of the Holocaust was spreading, a certain liberal sympathy with the Jewish people began to emerge in the Western world. By 1944, the
terrorists of Palestine, who were Zionists, suddenly began being described as 'freedom fighters.' If you look in history books you can find at least two Israeli prime ministers, including Menachem Begin, appearing in 'Wanted' posters saying, TERRORISTS, REWARD [this much]. The highest reward I have seen offered was 100,000 British pounds for the head of Menachem Begin, the terrorist (Yitzhak Shamir is the other)." (Eqbal Ahmad, "Terrorism: Theirs & Ours, Seven Stories," 2001, p. 11.)
just because you're raised christian doesn't mean you're gonna cling to christianity after you're grown up.
It is there and you can't get rid of it. At least that is what all the psychobabbelists say about all the bad things that hapen to you when you are a child.
his values may have been christian, and christian values are very much apparent in the declaration of independence. i'll give you that. but the constitution of this country was written to prevent this country from becoming a christian iran. No. It was there to prevent the feds from establishing any church. It wasn't put there to prevent states from establsihing a state church. There were several states with state churches at the time.it was written to ensure that people could choose whatever religion they desire, and worship who they want, when they want, and how they want. period. Again no. It was there to prevent only the feds from establishing a church.
No. It was there to prevent the feds from establishing any church. It wasn't put there to prevent states from establsihing a state church.
got a case citation to back that up? i'm in the process of finding them to back up my claims.
There were state churches at the time the Constitution was adopted. At least one lasted into the 1830's or '40's. I can't remember exactly which one. I think it was Massachusetts or Connectitcut. It is a hopeful sign that you are actually going to look something up instead of relying on propaganda by people with an agenda.
instead of relying on propaganda by people with an agenda.
Townhall.com?
I post the Townhall articles because they are pretty well written and it saves me time rewriting my ideas. If you would research the church state issue you will see that my position is accurate. If you don't believe it all you have to do is look at the first word of the First Amendment. It says "CONGRESS shall make no law...." It wasn't until the 1940's or so some person either with an agenda or lack of reason applied that to the states. Congress doesn't mean the states, it means Congress. That is what it always meant.
try findlaw.com, jethro. its a far more reliable source. you might actually learn something there.
I use findlaw sometimes. Why don't you use it?
what makes you think i don't use it?
"If you declare war against the Palestinians thinking that
you can solve the problem by seeing how many Palestinians
can be killed, I don't know that that leads usanywhere."
-COLIN L. POWELL, secretary of state.
Really?
just so ya know, bill i'm not a lawyer. ok an armchair lawyer, but not actually a lawyer. but findlaw is a very interesting site to look around in. i've used it quite a bit for other purposes.
Well if you are wanting law it is a good place to go. It isn't quite as good for hsitory.
But on one matter McCain, who wishes he could criminalize negative ads, was candid. He--like the Times and Post--is trying to stop others from enjoying rights they now enjoy.
now jethro, back to the discussion at hand earlier. "state" churches were made unconstitutional by the 14th amendment which we've discussed here many times.
from section 1:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;
which applies the first amendment to the individual states. unless of course the various arguments you've made using the 14th in the past become null and void.
Democrats regularly insult the intelligence of half the public in order to win the votes of the terminally stupid. As long as their lies bamboozle enough clods to give them a political edge, they will say absolutely anything.
What does the first amendment say? "It says Congress can make no law..." It already applied to everyone. What has happened is that liberals with an agenda have instituted baseless interpretation to apply it to states and local governments. Furthermore, the 14th amendment was forced down the throats of the nation by a post war Congress. All the states that had seceeded were required to pass the amendment whether they wanted to or not. This wouldn't have been necessary except therre wasn't enough of the Union states that thought the amendment was that great either.
The 14th amendment while it appears to be written with good intentions was used to subvert the intentions of its drafters. It was simply a power grab by the federal government when many of the states were at the mercy of it.
How do you know the intentions of the drafters? Maybe it's working perfectly and how it was intended. Maybe it's the conservatives with their own agenda that are spewing forth baseless interpretations.
Maybe you should read the Federalist Papers.
I give up.
You never answer anybody's questions.
Jt, you asked: How do you know the intentions of the drafters?
I answered: Maybe you should read the Federalist Papers. How did I not answer your question?
It already applied to everyone.
that's not what you've been saying jethro. you've been preaching that states have had the right to establish a state church. now suddenly they don't because the first amendment restricts states in the same way it restricts congress???
Obviously you don't understand what I am saying. That does not surprise me. What applied to everyone is that CONGRESS couldn't pass a law establishing religion. So after the 14th amendment passed it should not change anything because Congress still couldn't establish religion. It is a big leap to say the first amendment means legislatures can't establish such laws. It is an even bigger leap to say school boards and teachers can't say a prayer or teach any religion because they don't even have the ability to make law.
As for privilges and immunities that doesn't apply. What privilege is abridged? What immunity is abridged?
How did I not answer your question?
You can't be serious, that was an honest answer? That was how YOU know their intentions?
Anyway, be careful what you ask for or your grandkids are going to be saying "Praise Allah" in their public school.
Jethro, why aren't you on the U.S. Supreme Court?
No they won't. If there is the feds and the state can't control prayer in school the parents and the school boards will. Power by the people. I thought liberals approved of such things.
Can you believe this?
No they won't.
Yes they will. Islam is growing exponentially my friend.
If there is the feds and the state can't control prayer in school the parents and the school boards will.
My point exactly
Power by the people. I thought liberals approved of such things.
I wouldn't know, I'm not a Liberal. Do you approve of such things?
Jethro, why aren't you on the Supreme Court?
Yes they will. Islam is growing exponentially my friend. Between the war on terrorism and the Israli war on the Palestinians and the Indian war with Pakistan, they be dropping as fast as they produce them!
If there is the feds and the state can't control prayer in school the parents and the school boards will.
My point exactly
And there is a problem with this? How?
I wouldn't know, I'm not a Liberal. Do you approve of such things? JT you ARE a liberal!!!!
Jethro, why aren't you on the Supreme Court? Because I'm not a politician.
and jethro, you completely missed my point. once the 14th amendment was put into place, it took the first amendment restrictions that had been placed on congress and applied them to the individual states. of course its a big leap to apply the first amendment to the individual states. but the 14th amendment seems to me to make it apply thereto. a quick search at findlaw "freedom from speech" reveals many many cases in which the first and 14th amendments are concurrently used in restricting that which the legislatures of the states may prevent.
i'm making the assumption that since you followed us over from the water cooler, you're from minnesotan. now if we can't agree that the individial states may establish a state church, i'll point you to article 1, section 16 of the minnesota state constitution:
Sec. 16. FREEDOM OF CONSCIENCE; NO PREFERENCE TO BE GIVEN TO ANY RELIGIOUS ESTABLISHMENT OR MODE OF WORSHIP.The enumeration of rights in this constitution shall not deny or impair others retained by and inherent in the people. The right of every man to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience shall never be infringed; nor shall any man be compelled to attend, erect or support any place of worship, or to maintain any religious or ecclesiastical ministry, against his consent; nor shall any control of or interference with the rights of conscience be permitted, or any preference be given by law to any religious establishment or mode of worship; but the liberty of conscience hereby secured shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness or justify practices inconsistent with the peace or safety of the state, nor shall any money be drawn from the treasury for the benefit of any religious societies or religious or theological seminaries.
And that is fine. My point is the feds weren't intended to have that power to prevent it. The Courts just insit on legislating rather than interpreting.
logical or not, it was done. deal with it.
under the constitution as it stands today, and if we have to go that far to get it into your head, the constitutions of the various states which have all subsequently applied the restrictions on congress to their own legislatures, we will nothave any sort of government sanctioned religion in this country. not without amending 51 constitutions. and if that happens, vancouver's looking like a good place to go live.
as for my statement about you not being a lawyer, consider it withdrawn.