But our founding fathers do talk to you? You seem to have no problem interpreting what they would do or intended in any given situation.
(Takes deep sigh) Jt, No. I read history. I read what they wrote. That is how I can tell. As for Christ I don't know of anything that he wrote. It was all written by someone else.
I just read about a 10 year old girl who became pregnant by a 16 year old boy. He convinced her to have sex because they were "going out", or something of that nature. Some things can really get me down. I remain hopeful though.
Always gotta answer with a question. Anyway, use your own definition if you wish.
Or........
Do you believe in the Christian God? Do you read the Bible? Do you believe the Bible is the word of God? Do you believe Jesus is the son of God? Do you believe in the resurrection? Do you attend a Christian Church? Do you celebrate Christmas or Easter?............
Yes, the Bible was written by folks who believed in a flat earth.
And religion itself, some argue, was the creation of superstitious, primitive minds that couldn't fathom natural phenomena.
Upon seeing the stars in the sky, for instance, early man probably related them to the only thing in his experience that was roughly comparable.
Namely "campfires", which he attributed to "gods" in the heavens.
Clearly, over time, polytheism of the sort that prevailed in the Nordic countries (my last name comes from the ancient Finnish god who was "the painter of the moon") evolved to a monotheism that's the basis of current religions.
Any serious critique of Christianity, for example, plainly shows how aspects of the faith, such as certain miracles, are lifted virtually intact from earlier religions, some of which believed in many gods.
Additionally, I believe it was the Greek Celsus who commented that the Christian Gospels were edited "one, two, many times" by what was, even then, a changing view of their basic emphasis, by forces aligned with the the apostle Paul (who is thought to have been the actual writer of the Book of John and the Peterine Epistles), both substantially more conservative than the older Synoptic Gospels -- Matthew, Mark and Luke.
Interestingly, Thomas Jefferson held that an essential distortion of Christianity occurred alost immediately, under Paul's influence:
"Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."
As did George Bernard Shaw:
"No sooner had Jesus knocked over the dragon of superstition than Paul boldly set it on its legs again in the name of Jesus."
Remember, some forty years passed since Jesus died and anything was written about Him.
A long period during which the impositions of benighted, minds -- with all their obviously unscientific and prejudicial biases, raging at the time -- could have been (and surely were) added as Gospel "truth".
Which is why the Bible needs to be "interpreted".
As it is, by various denominations within the broad faith, who disgaree greatly on many issues.
Separating the gold from the dross has become a modern-age necessity, for civilization's advance and evolution have taught us so much more than the likes of Paul could possibly have understood.
Bishop John S. Spong (Episcopal Bishop of Newark):
"Paul's words are not the Words of God. They are the words of Paul -- a vast difference." (Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, p. 104, Harper San Francisco, 1991).
Abortion and homosexuality are viewed very differently be different religions, and even by varying tendencies within Christianity.
Therefore, for someone to want to force their personal beliefs about these subjects on others -- making them conform with their authoritarian certitutude -- is not only generally anti-liberty in the sharpest sense, but an obvious violation of other people's religious rights, which they have a definite freedom to adhere to.
Tyranny is bad enough in the abstract, but doubly bad when it's practiced in furtherance of extreme prejudices.
<
<Therefore, for someone to want to force their personal beliefs about these subjects on others -- making them conform with their authoritarian certitutude -- is not only generally anti-liberty in the sharpest sense, but an obvious violation of other people's religious rights, which they have a definite freedom to adhere to.>>
So you agree that these subjects do not belong in schools. Good.
here is my belief....I believe that if everyone would mind their own buisness and stop trying to make people believe in their beliefs this world would be alot more peacfull, I'm pretty sure God will deal with sinners the way he sees fit and doesn't need any help!
the way I see it, if I'm 12 years old and my father, uncle, brother etc...rapes me and I become pregnant, I pray that I have the right to not have a baby that I took no part in wanting, the same goes for any woman who has unwillingly had sex with some freak that thinks it's OK to put his hands on her without her consent. could you imagine having a baby and looking at it everyday only to remind you of the worst day of your life? no thanks!
From what you have said in the past in here, you are also a believer and in fact, I THINL that you have said that ALL of the bible was FACT, and ALL of it should be interpreted as "God's word". If you deny that now, then you deny God, don't you?
No I never said the Bible was all fact or that it was all God's word.
Now if THAT is the case, then you have no basis for the stand you take on abortion, as you have said MANY times that it is Murder, according to the Bible and/or God's word(s). I don't think I ever said abortion is murder because of God's word. I have said that abortion is the equivalent of murder because it is the taking of a human life.
Now to bob and weave about this question is all good and fine, but it only shows that you cannot accept the things you say and you only say them to be contrary, not because you Believe what you say, based upon "Judeo Christian" values, because you cannot have any if you do not believe in the Bible as factual, and a basis for living. Apparently you have misunderstood what I have written. Furthermore, I think you have willfully misunderstood the things I have written.
Of course, whatever you believe in is just fantastic, but you have now denied Christ and his supremacy as Lord and God of all of those who claim to be Christians. See the above comment.
the way I see it, if I'm 12 years old and my father, uncle, brother etc...rapes me and I become pregnant, I pray that I have the right to not have a baby that I took no part in wanting, the same goes for any woman who has unwillingly had sex with some freak that thinks it's OK to put his hands on her without her consent. could you imagine having a baby and looking at it everyday only to remind you of the worst day of your life? no thanks!
Just because someone may not want the child doesn't make the child any less human or alive. They could give the child up for adoption.
dal: And, if you're going to disparage adoption because it is cost-prohibitive, how can adoption then be your solution?
jethro: Because I know there are plenty of people that are willing to pay the cost, although I am not one of them. Second it doesn't have to be so expensive.
jethro, "second it doesn't have to be so expensive" is not a legitimate answer to the question.
i'll be damned. i think that's the first time jethro hasn't answered a question with a question.
Most abortions are had due to the irresponsibility of the parents involved. If they didn't have the option to kill the child maybe they would be more responsible.
Will you answer the question would Christ bomb abortion clinics when I ask it?
How would I know? Christ doesn't talk to me directly.
I'll ask him then...
I'll get back to you.
How would I know? Christ doesn't talk to me directly.
But our founding fathers do talk to you? You seem to have no problem interpreting what they would do or intended in any given situation.
But our founding fathers do talk to you? You seem to have no problem interpreting what they would do or intended in any given situation.
(Takes deep sigh) Jt, No. I read history. I read what they wrote. That is how I can tell. As for Christ I don't know of anything that he wrote. It was all written by someone else.
So, the Bible is worthless as far as Christ's opinion?
No. I just don't necessarily trust that the writers got Christ's teachings exactly correct.
So if the Bible was written by Christ, do you think there would be a chapter on how to bomb an abortion clinic?
The Bible was written by people who thought the earth was flat.
The Bible was written by people who thought the earth was flat.
And the Constitution was written by people that thought it perfectly acceptable to own slaves, to subjugate women, oppress the poor....
Should we disregard them as well?
I just read about a 10 year old girl who became pregnant by a 16 year old boy. He convinced her to have sex because they were "going out", or something of that nature. Some things can really get me down. I remain hopeful though.
And the Constitution was written by people that thought it perfectly acceptable to own slaves, to subjugate women, oppress the poor....
Should we disregard them as well?
Most liberals want to.
Are you a Christian, Jethro?
In the 2 years I have read Jethro's posts, I don't believe he has ever answered a question. All he does is bob and weave.
Why is that Jethro?
He has aspirations for political office and therefore he doesn't want to take a stance on any issues?
Are you a Christian, Jethro?
What does it mean to you to be a Christian?
He must want to be a politician if he's answering questions with questions.
What does it mean to you to be a Christian?
Always gotta answer with a question. Anyway, use your own definition if you wish.
Or........
Do you believe in the Christian God? Do you read the Bible? Do you believe the Bible is the word of God? Do you believe Jesus is the son of God? Do you believe in the resurrection? Do you attend a Christian Church? Do you celebrate Christmas or Easter?............
There's nothing to be ashamed of if you are a Christian. If that's what is worrying you, Jethro.
I better stay outta here...
Yes, the Bible was written by folks who believed in a flat earth.
And religion itself, some argue, was the creation of superstitious, primitive minds that couldn't fathom natural phenomena.
Upon seeing the stars in the sky, for instance, early man probably related them to the only thing in his experience that was roughly comparable.
Namely "campfires", which he attributed to "gods"
in the heavens.
Clearly, over time, polytheism of the sort that prevailed in the Nordic countries (my last name comes from the ancient Finnish god who was "the painter of the moon") evolved to a monotheism that's the basis of current religions.
Any serious critique of Christianity, for example, plainly shows how aspects of the faith, such as certain miracles, are lifted virtually intact from earlier religions, some of which believed in many gods.
Additionally, I believe it was the Greek Celsus who commented that the Christian Gospels were edited "one, two, many times" by what was, even then, a changing view of their basic emphasis, by forces aligned with the the apostle Paul (who is thought to have been the actual writer of the Book of John and the Peterine Epistles), both substantially more conservative than the older Synoptic Gospels -- Matthew, Mark and Luke.
Interestingly, Thomas Jefferson held that an essential distortion of Christianity occurred alost immediately, under Paul's influence:
"Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."
As did George Bernard Shaw:
"No sooner had Jesus knocked over the dragon of superstition than Paul boldly set it on its legs again in the name of Jesus."
Remember, some forty years passed since Jesus died and anything was written about Him.
A long period during which the impositions of benighted, minds -- with all their obviously unscientific and prejudicial biases, raging at the time -- could have been (and surely were) added as Gospel "truth".
Which is why the Bible needs to be "interpreted".
As it is, by various denominations within the broad faith, who disgaree greatly on many issues.
Separating the gold from the dross has become a modern-age necessity, for civilization's advance and evolution have taught us so much more
than the likes of Paul could possibly have understood.
Bishop John S. Spong (Episcopal Bishop of Newark):
"Paul's words are not the Words of God. They are the words of Paul -- a vast difference." (Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, p. 104, Harper San Francisco, 1991).
Abortion and homosexuality are viewed very differently be different religions, and even by varying tendencies within Christianity.
Therefore, for someone to want to force their personal beliefs about these subjects on others -- making them conform with their authoritarian certitutude -- is not only generally anti-liberty in the sharpest sense, but an obvious violation of other people's religious rights, which they have a definite freedom to adhere to.
Tyranny is bad enough in the abstract, but doubly bad when it's practiced in furtherance of extreme prejudices.
People like Andy and his conservative ilk have ruined the whole idea of religion.
<
<Therefore, for someone to want to force their personal beliefs about these subjects on others -- making them conform with their authoritarian certitutude -- is not only generally anti-liberty in the sharpest sense, but an obvious violation of other people's religious rights, which they have a definite freedom to adhere to.>>
So you agree that these subjects do not belong in schools. Good.
here is my belief....I believe that if everyone would mind their own buisness and stop trying to make people believe in their beliefs this world would be alot more peacfull, I'm pretty sure God will deal with sinners the way he sees fit and doesn't need any help!
Abortion is just wrong.
the way I see it, if I'm 12 years old and my father, uncle, brother etc...rapes me and I become pregnant, I pray that I have the right to not have a baby that I took no part in wanting, the same goes for any woman who has unwillingly had sex with some freak that thinks it's OK to put his hands on her without her consent. could you imagine having a baby and looking at it everyday only to remind you of the worst day of your life? no thanks!
From what you have said in the past in here, you are also a believer and in fact, I THINL that you have said that ALL of the bible was FACT, and ALL of it should be interpreted as "God's word". If you deny that now, then you deny God, don't you?
No I never said the Bible was all fact or that it was all God's word.
Now if THAT is the case, then you have no basis for the stand you take on abortion, as you have said MANY times that it is Murder, according to the Bible and/or God's word(s). I don't think I ever said abortion is murder because of God's word. I have said that abortion is the equivalent of murder because it is the taking of a human life.
Now to bob and weave about this question is all good and fine, but it only shows that you cannot accept the things you say and you only say them to be contrary, not because you Believe what you say, based upon "Judeo Christian" values, because you cannot have any if you do not believe in the Bible as factual, and a basis for living. Apparently you have misunderstood what I have written. Furthermore, I think you have willfully misunderstood the things I have written.
Of course, whatever you believe in is just fantastic, but you have now denied Christ and his supremacy as Lord and God of all of those who claim to be Christians. See the above comment.
the way I see it, if I'm 12 years old and my father, uncle, brother etc...rapes me and I become pregnant, I pray that I have the right to not have a baby that I took no part in wanting, the same goes for any woman who has unwillingly had sex with some freak that thinks it's OK to put his hands on her without her consent. could you imagine having a baby and looking at it everyday only to remind you of the worst day of your life? no thanks!
Just because someone may not want the child doesn't make the child any less human or alive. They could give the child up for adoption.
They could give the child up for adoption.
Jethro, just out of curiousity: Have you adopted any children?
Do you know how much it costs to adopt a child?
And, if you're going to disparage adoption because it is cost-prohibitive, how can adoption then be your solution?
No I never said the Bible was all fact or that it was all God's word.
I have to take Jethro's side on this one. As a matter of fact, he's yet to answer the questions.
So, Jethro. Is the Bible God's word?
Do you know how much it costs to adopt a child?
You're the one that suggested adoption as an alternative to abortion.
Is there a limit on what you would spend to save a child from murder?
bravo dal. :)
And, if you're going to disparage adoption because it is cost-prohibitive, how can adoption then be your solution?
Because I know there are plenty of people that are willing to pay the cost, although I am not one of them. Second it doesn't have to be so expensive.
There was nothing to say, "bravo" about, ares.
Because I know there are plenty of people that are willing to pay the cost, although I am not one of them. Second it doesn't have to be so expensive.
Prove this please.
There was nothing to say, "bravo" about, ares.
why? because you backed yourself into a corner and now can't get out of it?
And the beat goes on.........
No because you weren't bright enough to know there was no CORNER!
Here you go, JT: http://www.calib.com/naic/pubs/s_number.htm
Here's more JT: http://www.cwla.org/programs/adoption/adoptionfactsheet.htm
Apparently not many women do put up children for adoption: http://www.calib.com/naic/pubs/s_place.htm
http://www.parentsoup.com/adoption/resources/articles/0%2C8248%2C166272_170402%2C00.html
dal: And, if you're going to disparage adoption because it is cost-prohibitive, how can adoption then be your solution?
jethro: Because I know there are plenty of people that are willing to pay the cost, although I am not one of them. Second it doesn't have to be so expensive.
jethro, "second it doesn't have to be so expensive" is not a legitimate answer to the question.
i'll be damned. i think that's the first time jethro hasn't answered a question with a question.
The estimated ratio is 3.3 adoption seekers for every actual adoption.
http://www.parentsoup.com/adoption/resources/articles/0%2C8248%2C166272_170402%2C00.html
From Jethro's links:
In 1992, there were 127,441 children adopted in the United States.
The estimated ratio is 3.3 adoption seekers for every actual adoption.
Jethro, do you have any idea how many abortions there are each year?
There simply isn't enough people out there to adopt even a small number of the children that would be born.
I agree that abortion is wrong but adoption simply isn't a valid answer.
There are not enough prospective parents out there to adopt these children if abortion's didn't occur.
Most abortions are had due to the irresponsibility of the parents involved. If they didn't have the option to kill the child maybe they would be more responsible.
Apparently JT's motto is: Since there aren't enough people to adopt just kill the child.
If they didn't have the option to kill the child maybe they would be more responsible.
you mean like before roe v. wade was decided? i'm sure there was a lot more responsibility back then.