I think it better to know history rather than to know how to take a history test, though. How the hell are you going to know that the kids are learning it if you don't test?
I would consider the opinions of educators on the subject of education worth noting. Guess I'm funny that way. I guess you are a puppet of the teachers unions.
jethro, here's the problem with testing. they *don't* test you on what you learned. they test you on what you can commit to short-term memory through the duration of the test. if a month afterwards, the student's forgotten it, they never learned it in the first place. i personally hold microsoft certifications, and to get these i took a series of tests. the best way to study for them? i got practice tests and too them until i could ace them. then i set them down for a couple of weeks, and took them again. *then* i went back and studied what i missed that second time. that certification, anyone who has one, will tell you is a joke. because that's precisely how everyone who takes them studies for those tests. and then we proceed to not worry about retaining that information, because we have the study guides we used to teach us the tests to use as a reference later on.
jethro, here's the problem with testing. they *don't* test you on what you learned. I see you have bought in to the lie. They retain enough. What they do learn is a process and a basic knowledge so that if and when they need to they can find what it is they specifically need.
I have a great idea what kind of kids the schools are getting. They are getting a range of students from great to piss poor. Instead of treating the kids differently they try to handle all the same. The good students need to be seperated from the poor students in order for them to excel. The poor students need the most basic educational instruction they can get. Above all the disruptive element must be removed from the system and placed into their own system.
well, at least we're seeing the same way on that matter. so the natural question then is why is this not happening? why is it that its so incredibly difficult to retain a student that really does need to be retained? why are the shitheads still sitting in the classrooms? well aside from the fact that its not politically correct to separate students based on ability anymore. and its not politically correct to tell a parent that their kid doesn't know what they need to know in order to move on to the next grade.
If all we're concerned with is getting the kids into the testing room and successfully taking the test with information drilled into their heads, I suggest we make Rush Limbaugh Secretary of Education.
He's been doing that with his dittohead listeners for going on 15 years. They hang on his every word, and repeat stuff often and everywhere.
Just keep Limbaugh out of the history and social studies classrooms. We're just interested in his abilities as a rote educator.
Apparently, Rick, you offer no alternative to testing. Tests can be a good indicator of what a child has learned. It depends on what is actually tested and how the test actually requires the student to show. Do you think math tests are not helpful?
well, at least we're seeing the same way on that matter. so the natural question then is why is this not happening? why is it that its so incredibly difficult to retain a student that really does need to be retained? why are the shitheads still sitting in the classrooms? well aside from the fact that its not politically correct to separate students based on ability anymore. and its not politically correct to tell a parent that their kid doesn't know what they need to know in order to move on to the next grade.
The problem is bureaucracy. That is why vouchers are a good thing.
tell me again how it is that vouchers are going to solve the problem that is the bureaucracy of the public school system? because i just don't see it happening. below-level kids are still gonna get moved on to the next grade, the brats are still gonna be in the classrooms, until their parents manage to get them into a private school (and yes, many of them would be able to get in, as frequently, the biggest troublemakers are incredibly bright). at which point they'll cause trouble as well, get expelled and return to the public school system, because we're required to educate them.
tell me again how it is that vouchers are going to solve the problem that is the bureaucracy of the public school system? First it will get good students out of a bad system. Either the public schools will have to reform or they will go out of business. If it turns out that public schools become the depository for only the disruptive that is fine they need to be somewhere, too.
below-level kids are still gonna get moved on to the next grade, the brats are still gonna be in the classrooms, until their parents manage to get them into a private school (and yes, many of them would be able to get in, as frequently, the biggest troublemakers are incredibly bright. at which point they'll cause trouble as well, get expelled and return to the public school system, because we're required to educate them. Sounds to mee that you see it as hopeless and want to throw your hands up in disgust and walk away.
"First it will get good students out of a bad system. "
It's not a bad system. You're just a likely to get a good education in public schools as you are anywhere else. It's amazing they have the success that they do.
A kid has to come to school wanting to learn. It's not the school's fault if a kid comes to school unmotivated.
And the suddenly concerned parents will sue them. So what? Let them sue. That is the cowardly claim by your heros of the teacher's unions and the left wing educational establishment.
This voucher stuff is being sold as a panacea. It will work.
If some school districts are bad, why not just focus on those school districts personally. Try to determine what is wrong and what changes can be made to help those school districts. Give them personal attention instead of vouchers.
Liberals aren't capapble of critical thinking, Rick. That is the problem with the schools. They don't teach critical thought only left wing propaganda.
Teachers Union creed: Don't discipline or you will get sued. Don't teach because you will get sued.
sad, but at least this part of jethro's statement is true.
not that i'm gonna deny any claim that the typical public tends to be more liberal, but what specific propaganda are you talking about, jethro? of course i won't see any of it as being propaganda, because i'm actually a product of the liberal public school system, and an even more liberal college.
"of course i won't see any of it as being propaganda, because i'm actually a product of the liberal public school system, and an even more liberal college."
It's not propaganda. In college especially, you should be exposed to a wide range of ideas, that you sort through yourself and decide which have merit and which do not.
You come out of college a changed person if you're lucky. Many (Most?) walk out of the university with their PlayStations and Dave Matthews Band CDs, exactly the same person they were when they arrived.
In college especially, you should be exposed to a wide range of ideas, that you sort through yourself and decide which have merit and which do not.
Unfortunately the liberal colleges do not allow equal time to conservative opinions and ideas. The liberal establishments condemn and ridicule the right instead of letting the students decide for themselves. Which makes sense because the left wing ideology doesn't make much sense. The only way to get people to buy into it is to suppress common sense.
Also... Please name 5 "Conservative Colleges", that are NOT religious?
That's not quite fair.
See, the liberals are in control of public education therefore Convervative values are basically banned from public schools at every level.
That's my whole reason for wanting vouchers.
btw: By Liberal I don't mean a wide range of ideas. I mean a politically correct philosophy. A wide range of ideas are not present in a "Liberal" college.
After this, don't accuse me of talking stupid again. Or this will be thrown back at you.
Throw away, because it's the thruth.
You'd be lying if you told me the Liberal philosophy isn't being pushed in public schools.
I don't want sterile, I want the well rounded education you keep speaking of. I want equal time but it doesn't exist. It's one sided on the side of the Liberals.
Do what you want with your public school. Give the rest of us that don't agree another option for our tax dollar.
btw Rick, I wouldn't send my kids to Bob Jones University either. They're just as bad on the other end of the spectrum. I grow tired of your insinuation that everyone that disagrees with you is some sort of Right Wing Christian Fundamentalist.
I have no problem with Christian Fundamentalists. I might disagree, but that's OK. They can throw their ideas out in the arena the other side can throw theirs'. Winner carries the day. That's fair to me.
Soft-headed thinking, and baseless statements I will challenge.
And that arena of ideas can be anywhere. Even a university. That those ideas don't take hold in ways that satisfy conservatives is neither here nor there.
If the ideas aren't winning hearts and minds on campus, maybe conservatives ought to re-tool their message.
And I think there's plenty of conservative thought on campus. There's a lot of kids out there with MBA's, I don't think The Stork delivers them.
If the ideas aren't winning hearts and minds on campus, maybe conservatives ought to re-tool their message. Maybe they have better things to do that go to schools across the country just to be harrassed. It is easy to be liberal especially at schools. While in school kids and prosfessors live in their little secure cocoon and think that all problems are solved by good intentions. That is not reasonable. That is not mature. That is childishness, the cornerstone of liberalism.
And I think there's plenty of conservative though on campus. There's a lot of kids out there with MBA's, I don't think The Stork delivers them.
I don't understand why people think that because someone has an MBA they are conservative. Why is it all business is painted as conservative? It ain't so.
"I don't understand why people think that because someone has an MBA they are conservative. Why is it all business is painted as conservative? It ain't so."
You're half right. It's something of a generalization, but I don't think what I said is totally off base, either.
I have no problem with Christian Fundamentalists. I might disagree, but that's OK. They can throw their ideas out in the arena the other side can throw theirs'. Winner carries the day. That's fair to me.
You wouldn't send your kid to Bob Jones though would you?
Soft-headed thinking, and baseless statements I will challenge.
"They should "teach the test" since what is on the test is what they should need to know. "
Perhaps. I think it better to know history rather than to know how to take a history test, though.
"I see that you got your left wing teacher's union talking points guidelines, Rick."
I would consider the opinions of educators on the subject of education worth noting. Guess I'm funny that way.
I think it better to know history rather than to know how to take a history test, though. How the hell are you going to know that the kids are learning it if you don't test?
I would consider the opinions of educators on the subject of education worth noting. Guess I'm funny that way. I guess you are a puppet of the teachers unions.
jethro, here's the problem with testing. they *don't* test you on what you learned. they test you on what you can commit to short-term memory through the duration of the test. if a month afterwards, the student's forgotten it, they never learned it in the first place. i personally hold microsoft certifications, and to get these i took a series of tests. the best way to study for them? i got practice tests and too them until i could ace them. then i set them down for a couple of weeks, and took them again. *then* i went back and studied what i missed that second time. that certification, anyone who has one, will tell you is a joke. because that's precisely how everyone who takes them studies for those tests. and then we proceed to not worry about retaining that information, because we have the study guides we used to teach us the tests to use as a reference later on.
Maybe what Bill Gates and his people did for Microsoft certification testing he could do for the schools.
Privatize! Privatize!
Pffft!
jethro, here's the problem with testing. they *don't* test you on what you learned. I see you have bought in to the lie. They retain enough. What they do learn is a process and a basic knowledge so that if and when they need to they can find what it is they specifically need.
Monopoly! Monopoly!
Pffft!
I see you have bought in to the lie.
you really have no idea the sort of kids the schools are getting these days, do you? its not a lie. its a sad reality.
I have a great idea what kind of kids the schools are getting. They are getting a range of students from great to piss poor. Instead of treating the kids differently they try to handle all the same. The good students need to be seperated from the poor students in order for them to excel. The poor students need the most basic educational instruction they can get. Above all the disruptive element must be removed from the system and placed into their own system.
well, at least we're seeing the same way on that matter. so the natural question then is why is this not happening? why is it that its so incredibly difficult to retain a student that really does need to be retained? why are the shitheads still sitting in the classrooms? well aside from the fact that its not politically correct to separate students based on ability anymore. and its not politically correct to tell a parent that their kid doesn't know what they need to know in order to move on to the next grade.
I got it:
If all we're concerned with is getting the kids into the testing room and successfully taking the test with information drilled into their heads, I suggest we make Rush Limbaugh Secretary of Education.
He's been doing that with his dittohead listeners for going on 15 years. They hang on his every word, and repeat stuff often and everywhere.
Just keep Limbaugh out of the history and social studies classrooms. We're just interested in his abilities as a rote educator.
Apparently, Rick, you offer no alternative to testing. Tests can be a good indicator of what a child has learned. It depends on what is actually tested and how the test actually requires the student to show. Do you think math tests are not helpful?
well, at least we're seeing the same way on that matter. so the natural question then is why is this not happening? why is it that its so incredibly difficult to retain a student that really does need to be retained? why are the shitheads still sitting in the classrooms? well aside from the fact that its not politically correct to separate students based on ability anymore. and its not politically correct to tell a parent that their kid doesn't know what they need to know in order to move on to the next grade.
The problem is bureaucracy. That is why vouchers are a good thing.
tell me again how it is that vouchers are going to solve the problem that is the bureaucracy of the public school system? because i just don't see it happening. below-level kids are still gonna get moved on to the next grade, the brats are still gonna be in the classrooms, until their parents manage to get them into a private school (and yes, many of them would be able to get in, as frequently, the biggest troublemakers are incredibly bright). at which point they'll cause trouble as well, get expelled and return to the public school system, because we're required to educate them.
tell me again how it is that vouchers are going to solve the problem that is the bureaucracy of the public school system? First it will get good students out of a bad system. Either the public schools will have to reform or they will go out of business. If it turns out that public schools become the depository for only the disruptive that is fine they need to be somewhere, too.
below-level kids are still gonna get moved on to the next grade, the brats are still gonna be in the classrooms, until their parents manage to get them into a private school (and yes, many of them would be able to get in, as frequently, the biggest troublemakers are incredibly bright. at which point they'll cause trouble as well, get expelled and return to the public school system, because we're required to educate them. Sounds to mee that you see it as hopeless and want to throw your hands up in disgust and walk away.
"First it will get good students out of a bad system. "
It's not a bad system. You're just a likely to get a good education in public schools as you are anywhere else. It's amazing they have the success that they do.
A kid has to come to school wanting to learn. It's not the school's fault if a kid comes to school unmotivated.
Though it's the school that will be blamed.
Nonsense. Left wing propaganda.
"Those that cause trouble should be removed for the sake of the ones that want to learn."
And the suddenly concerned parents will sue them.
This voucher stuff is being peddled as a panacea by pandering politicians. (Clever alliteration, Rick!)
A check in the mail! Who's going to complain about that?
And the suddenly concerned parents will sue them. So what? Let them sue. That is the cowardly claim by your heros of the teacher's unions and the left wing educational establishment.
This voucher stuff is being sold as a panacea. It will work.
If some school districts are bad, why not just focus on those school districts personally. Try to determine what is wrong and what changes can be made to help those school districts. Give them personal attention instead of vouchers.
This voucher stuff is being sold a panacea.
Let's say it's not a cure all.
What will it hurt?
I won't even say that public schools are horrible.......yada, yada, yada and all that happy crappy.
However, there's no denying public schools have become breeding ground for Liberal thought and they don't teach what I want my children to learn.
Try to determine what is wrong and what changes can be made to help those school districts. Give them personal attention instead of vouchers.
And who would give this personal attention? What about the personal attention that should lready be taken place by those employed there?
Check my edits about the panacea of vouchers.
You'll see the result of a public school education. I loved English.
Teachers Union creed: Don't discipline or you will get sued. Don't teach because you will get sued. Just sit on your arse and get paid.
Vouchers should be available everywhere, not just in bad districts, so parents can get the education they want for their children.
"However, there's no denying public schools have become breeding ground for Liberal thought and they don't teach what I want my children to learn. "
Well walk by their side and hold their hands until they are 25. Reward critical thinking with punishment,
I guarantee they'll never move out of your basement. And Daddy will know best.
Well walk by their side and hold their hands until they are 25. Discourage critical thinking with punishment,
I can't even debate such stupidity.
Just when I thought I'd have an intelligent conversation, you go and pull a Jethro.
And Daddy will know best.
Damn straight I know what's best for my kids! Think I'd leave it up to the likes of the St. Paul School District?
Liberals aren't capapble of critical thinking, Rick. That is the problem with the schools. They don't teach critical thought only left wing propaganda.
Teachers Union creed: Don't discipline or you will get sued. Don't teach because you will get sued.
sad, but at least this part of jethro's statement is true.
not that i'm gonna deny any claim that the typical public tends to be more liberal, but what specific propaganda are you talking about, jethro? of course i won't see any of it as being propaganda, because i'm actually a product of the liberal public school system, and an even more liberal college.
Maybe in the Deep South jethro, some of the rural schools might have pictures of Jefferson Davis on the wall. The private ones, anyway.
Teaching about Lincoln is probably "left-wing propaganda" to you.
"of course i won't see any of it as being propaganda, because i'm actually a product of the liberal public school system, and an even more liberal college."
It's not propaganda. In college especially, you should be exposed to a wide range of ideas, that you sort through yourself and decide which have merit and which do not.
You come out of college a changed person if you're lucky. Many (Most?) walk out of the university with their PlayStations and Dave Matthews Band CDs, exactly the same person they were when they arrived.
Teaching about Lincoln is probably "left-wing propaganda" to you.
I am not surprised that you believe that is my opinion. It also doesn't surprise me that once again you are wrong.
In college especially, you should be exposed to a wide range of ideas, that you sort through yourself and decide which have merit and which do not.
Unfortunately the liberal colleges do not allow equal time to conservative opinions and ideas. The liberal establishments condemn and ridicule the right instead of letting the students decide for themselves. Which makes sense because the left wing ideology doesn't make much sense. The only way to get people to buy into it is to suppress common sense.
Too bad they're not.
Also... Please name 5 "Conservative Colleges", that are NOT religious?
That's not quite fair.
See, the liberals are in control of public education therefore Convervative values are basically banned from public schools at every level.
That's my whole reason for wanting vouchers.
btw: By Liberal I don't mean a wide range of ideas. I mean a politically correct philosophy. A wide range of ideas are not present in a "Liberal" college.
"See, the liberals are in control of public education therefore Convervative values are basically banned from public schools at every level."
After this, don't accuse me of talking stupid again. Or this will be thrown back at you.
For some people, ideas must be like disease. They float through the air infecting people. Mere exposure is dangerous.
Well, there's plenty of sterile rooms in acadamia, too. Bob Jones University comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others.
After this, don't accuse me of talking stupid again. Or this will be thrown back at you.
Throw away, because it's the thruth.
You'd be lying if you told me the Liberal philosophy isn't being pushed in public schools.
I don't want sterile, I want the well rounded education you keep speaking of. I want equal time but it doesn't exist. It's one sided on the side of the Liberals.
Do what you want with your public school. Give the rest of us that don't agree another option for our tax dollar.
btw Rick, I wouldn't send my kids to Bob Jones University either. They're just as bad on the other end of the spectrum. I grow tired of your insinuation that everyone that disagrees with you is some sort of Right Wing Christian Fundamentalist.
I have no problem with Christian Fundamentalists. I might disagree, but that's OK. They can throw their ideas out in the arena the other side can throw theirs'. Winner carries the day. That's fair to me.
Soft-headed thinking, and baseless statements I will challenge.
And that arena of ideas can be anywhere. Even a university. That those ideas don't take hold in ways that satisfy conservatives is neither here nor there.
If the ideas aren't winning hearts and minds on campus, maybe conservatives ought to re-tool their message.
And I think there's plenty of conservative thought on campus. There's a lot of kids out there with MBA's, I don't think The Stork delivers them.
The fact is that the colleges condemn and belittle conservative thought and ideas while promoting the socialist agenda.
Rick wrote: Soft-headed thinking, and baseless statements I will challenge.
No you don't. All you do is promote that kind of thinking.
If the ideas aren't winning hearts and minds on campus, maybe conservatives ought to re-tool their message. Maybe they have better things to do that go to schools across the country just to be harrassed. It is easy to be liberal especially at schools. While in school kids and prosfessors live in their little secure cocoon and think that all problems are solved by good intentions. That is not reasonable. That is not mature. That is childishness, the cornerstone of liberalism.
And I think there's plenty of conservative though on campus. There's a lot of kids out there with MBA's, I don't think The Stork delivers them.
I don't understand why people think that because someone has an MBA they are conservative. Why is it all business is painted as conservative? It ain't so.
Behold the amazing Hysterical Liberal Magic Eight Ball!
Simply ask a complicated political question and
click on the ball for the hysterical liberal's answer.
"I don't understand why people think that because someone has an MBA they are conservative. Why is it all business is painted as conservative? It ain't so."
You're half right. It's something of a generalization, but I don't think what I said is totally off base, either.
It would be one of the few times in recent memory that you weren't totally off base.
I'd rather be off base than in Right Field.
When I was a kid, that's where we put the crappy players.
They were probably in right field because they were more thoughtful and had intellectual talent rather than physical talent.
I played a lot of right field, jethro.
Did a lot of thinking out there. Prayed that they wouldn't hit the ball to me, too.
I have no problem with Christian Fundamentalists. I might disagree, but that's OK. They can throw their ideas out in the arena the other side can throw theirs'. Winner carries the day. That's fair to me.
You wouldn't send your kid to Bob Jones though would you?
Soft-headed thinking, and baseless statements I will challenge.
Whatever does that mean?
::scratches finger on mushy skull::