Is there a limit to Republican or Conservative patience with this?
Sure, I think there is. I don't know a specific deadline in peoples minds exist but as long as I see the effort I'm willing to be patient. It took 12 years to clean up the mess in Iraq. It will take more time as well. I'm more hopeful of Iraq than Afghanistan simply becasue although there's different ethnicities and relgious sects their are really only 3 major ones. Some of their people are educated and seem to have a drive about them. In Afghanistan it's all tribal klans and alliances that flow and change every year. It's been a 18th centurty country, well,,,,,,since the 18th century. Not saying that we should leave or not try, I just don't have much hope for it.
As far as Osama and Saddamn. IMO I think there's a 70% chance their both dead as doornails. I can't see those two not wanting to taunt us or show the power they have or believe they do. They (especially Binny) would want to inspire followers. They'd be on Al Jazerra every day giving us the finger.
We could certainly speed up the effort to catch them if we wanted to start conflicts with Pakistan, Syria, Iran and possibly Sudan, Yemen etc. You were lamenting about Syria today. I don't know if that would be worth it. We took out a prick like Saddamn who was a mass murderer and look at the hand wringing. Good God, we took out this thug and people with an agenda are ticked apparently. I think it's most important to disrupt their networks and take out the people helping them. Speaking of I'm glad we're getting the hell out of Saudi Arabia.
If they are alive I'll ask you this this. You're rich, you have billions and billions. You have loyal supporters not just in your country but others as well. You live in a place that has borders with sympathetic people, the terrain is rugged. You have well established networks throughout the globe and some muscle and money to back it up and make it happen not to mention corrupt police and officials. Think you could disappear ?
In this country alone their's people we're looking for, Eric Rudolph at the top of the list who was wanted, people were searching for 5 years and he didn't have a nickle. He managed to live in rural and urban areas. Give me a billion, some armed henchmen, some sympathetic followers and an established network and good luck trying to find me. It could take a long time.
Well you can't just automatically assume the opposite either. And why do you keep asking that as if any of this was based solely on something Saddam said?
I'm not automatically assuming. Everything points to him still having WMD.
Saddam didn't abide by one single UN saction. He kicked out the weapons inspectors. He continued to gain at the expense of his people. He played cat and mouse with the UN for a dozen years...
After what Circuit City did to it's employees recently, I'm reminding myself never to buy anything there.
A shocking story in the Wall Street Journal today details Bloody Wednesday at Circuit City. According to the Journal 3,900 people who made the highest commissioned sales were canned. The company then hired 2,100 people because they could pay them less.
And Circuit City was proud of it. It was a big show to the investors it was cutting cost.
I think it's as low as it gets. But maybe that makes me a fogey, tied to some silly notion that when you perform well in the United States a company rewards you instead of throwing you out in the street because they want someone cheaper.
Not sure how that relates to Iraq but thanks for posting the story. I agree, that's total B.S. What's really odd is that I was there just yesterday. I used to go there just because I had so many bad experiences with Best Buy, mainly their return policy. They made you feel like a criminal for wanting to return something with the recipt and unopened. I told them to stuff their 25% restocking fee. I told them to give me my money and I'd go put it back on the shelf myself. So if you know anyone who needs a Lynsky (sp) router unopened it can be their's for half price. I'd rather lose money than lose it to them. Now I'm gonna have to go back there because like you I won't be giving a nickel to Circut City. Bad P.R like that will come back to bite em. I hope it does.
I wonder how much money those top sales people brought into Circuit City. It appears the company wants to be more like Best Buy.
It makes you wonder how wrong Dennis actually is. Perhaps not as much as we think.
He's still wrong. The marketplace will correct it. One of the reasons I went to Circut City aside from Best Buy was the service. If they want to go to a bare bones type of service they'll have to lower their prices too. Perhaps they are also in financial trouble. Everytime I've been in one there isn't many people. They are a company and free to run it as they want, it's their perogative. Markets have a way of punishing and rewarding behavior. If the service stinks and the prices high they're done or it will severly hurt. People won't go their because of it and it will be a p.r nightmare as it should. I won't be going there either anymore.
P.S, whatever they might save short term they'll lose through fewer customers and the lawsuits from this will be huge.
no kidding. i picked up a replacement stereo for my car that retails for $700 for $375 +20 bucks shipping on ebay. now if only the damn thing would hurry up and get here. and yes, i know that's more than what i paid for the original deck; with this one, the whole damn deck is coming out of the car instead of just the face plate. its real tempting to put a note on the dash to the effect of "the stereo's in the house, asshole, where the insurance is provided by smith & wesson. i dare ya."
Ares is like McGuyver. Give him a stick of gum, some tinfiol a safety pin and an aresol can and he'll fashion a thermonuclear device for you in about 10 minutes.
In fact I think in his avatar pic he's rigging the frog to explode so he can see if the medallion was in there. I question his placement of the ordinance but I'm sure it worked.
BALAD, Iraq — An Iraqi guerrilla ambush on a U.S. tank column north of Baghdad backfired on the attackers Friday, as the Americans quickly turned the tide and hunted down and killed many of the assailants.
Friday's ambush began when what Central Command called an "organized group" ambushed a U.S. tank patrol with rocket propelled grenades in Balad, on the main north-south highway about 35 miles from the capital. The statement made no mention of U.S. casualties.
Note to foreign fighters, fedayeen and baaaath party members in Iraq. An rpg fired at an M1 tank is about the equivilent of a moth hitting your windshield on the highway. You'll hear it and see it but that's about all.
You have a pretty poor view of these folks if you don't believe that they are capable of such a thing. Do you feel that way about all those with a better tan than you got or just certain ones?
If you can EVER find a statement of mine that belittles anyone because of their race, please, show it to me... ?
Alright Archie...
This is the first Vietnam of the 21st Century, and if you think we will EVER leave Iraq as a working, Peaceful-Democracy, I suggest you have your heads examined.
It would seem that any country consisting of people darker than yourself would be unable to form a democracy.
Do you think the current administration would rather have a totalitarian regime in Iraq that plays ball with the US (as in crushing militant Islam and dealing oil) or a democracy that is like, say, France?
Do we know for certain that a plurality of the Iraqi people want democracy? We might think it's the best way to go, but is it up to us to decide that for them?
What if the go Wahabi muslim like Saudi Arabia, and force women under the veil?
"It would seem that any country consisting of people darker than yourself would be unable to form a democracy. "
After a second look, I find this statement a bit arrogant and presumptuous. How do you know that they even want a democracy? Unable? -- maybe they're unwilling.
Maybe they find U.S. style democracy chaotic and disorderly. Maybe the forced imposition of Western culture and customs is also viewed as an insult in many quarters. Granted, I haven't talked with many Iraqis so I could be wrong, but history (of many nations) shows that assuming other countrries want what we want has led to some disasters.
Do not take my words out of context! I was stating what it appears that Fold is trying to say. He spoke of the Vietnamese who are darker skinned and compared them to the Iraqi people who are darker skinned.
Now you appear to be saying that they do not want to chose their government. Are you implying that they want to have Hussein back killing and torturing their people?
But you spoke of their ability to establish a democracy, as if that defined them as something resembling "people like us." Maybe your making all kinds of assumptions about them. Maybe it has nothing to do with ability.
"Now you appear to be saying that they do not want to chose their government."
Maybe they don't want to choose democracy.
"Are you implying that they want to have Hussein back killing and torturing their people? "
There's no choice except totalitarian dictatorships and democracy? I think there are others. But I'm guessing most conservatives feel there is ONLY free-market democracy and the rest is totalitarian dictatorship, just under a different name.
If given the choice, what do you think the Bush people would want in Iraq, Dan a totalitarian government that's a toady to the U.S. or a democracy that defies the U.S.?
you can fuck-off, for even accusing me of such a thing.
That's all the proof I need. These darkies are incapable of any such a thing as democracy and would rather have a dictatorship as Rick so eloquently pointed out. You win Archie.
If you read op-ed pages...
Are those the same ones that said we would be slaughtered if we went there? Are they the same ones that said we were bogged down?
If given the choice, what do you think the Bush people would want in Iraq, Dan a totalitarian government that's a toady to the U.S. or a democracy that defies the U.S.?
I cannot speak for the president, but personally I would rather see a democracy because they are easier to work with in general. We have disagreed with many before, but it rarely becomes an all out war like has happened with totalitarian or dictatorship governments not to mention all the problems that they create for their own people.
NEW YORK (CBS.MW) - The Dow Jones Industrial Average rang up triple-digit gains Monday, led by airline and financial stocks, after a Federal Reserve report showed that manufacturing activity is increasing in New York...
In fairness to Bill I don't think I've ever heard him say anything to indicate he's racist or is biggoted. Don't mean to jump in the middle but I've never seen it. O.K I'll remove my nose from where it doesn't belong now.
This is NOT Vietnam ,major differences here and you know that. First off you were saying that after 1 week of fighting when you were criticizing the plan. Never mind we moved and made gains in territory unprecedented in military history. As far as what's happening now, yes people are still dying and it's sad. However it's also part of the commitment we made to restoring peace and order or at least trying. It's sad that anyone had to die wether it be in a humvee accident or yesterday or 2 days into the battle. What's the solution, pack up and leave right away ? Let the Mullahs come in and create another fundie Islamist state ? It could happen at any time I guess but to leave without giving it a real chance would be not only self defeating but also mean those very people making sacrifices today would be a diservice to what they've done IMO. If we did so we'd simply be dealing with them again down the road. Anything's possible but part of the reason for going was to rid the country of a brutal regime. Walking away and allowing another to walk in would be a horrid move.
Yes it's a tall order and yes it takes time. We still have troops in Kosovo and it's been 10 years, we're 3 months into this. Seems patience is selective I guess.
The fundie zeaolts are being rooted out and eventually will have to decide if they want to keep dying wholesale, go back to where they came from to fight us infidels or give up and move on. They can and will be overcome by a populace that wants freedom from oppression. They know what kind of oppression the fundies bring because they lived under it for years.
Every war and every country is different, difficulties do not make it Vietnam. That war was fought with so many political cuffs that overall victory was never possible because of the restraints imposed by the higher ups. Culture, terrain, climate, the public, etc. etc. The differences are too many to list.
There's no choice except totalitarian dictatorships and democracy? I think there are others. But I'm guessing most conservatives feel there is ONLY free-market democracy and the rest is totalitarian dictatorship, just under a different name.
Well perhaps you could point out the differences then. We have free market democracy, socialism, communism, totalarian rule, theocratic rule, facist rule, dictatorships and monarchies. Perhaps you could point out which of those you feel would be better for Iraq.
Do we know for certain that a plurality of the Iraqi people want democracy? We might think it's the best way to go, but is it up to us to decide that for them?
Yes, I think we should do everything in our power to promote and nurture a democracy. For one, it's rare that democracies fight one another, disagree, yes, as Dan pointed out. But look at history over the last 200 years and what you'll find is that in most conflicts one of the countires was anything but free market democraices. Democracy allows people to decide for themselves which direction to go as a country. None of the others allow that or at least to that degree. Perhaps you could say which forms you think they'd be better off under.
Is it presumptious ? Could be, but should we have left the Nazi's or Imperial Japanese in power after the war just because we didn't want to be somehow imposing our will ? Of course not, democracy is the ultimate in non imposisition. Even if a majority wanted to go whabbist the minority doesn't or at the least doesn't have a say. In any of the mentioned forms of government democracy is really the only one that gives people at least a say in their future. Ask the Shiites about that. The only ones usually who prosper in a theocracy, monarchy etc etc. are the ones who are in power, that's one of the things that got us to where we are today. If things change 20 years from now you deal with it, but we should give it our best effort at actual change and reform in the ME, it's long overdue.
In fairness to Bill I don't think I've ever heard him say anything to indicate he's racist or is biggoted.
I know that and am just pulling his chain. It is fun to turn the table on the left and claim racism where none is actually meant like they sometimes do to those that they disagree with.
As for your other posts, well done. I totally agree.
Free market democracy would be best in my opinion. But it seems that it is being instituted at the point of a gun.
Whom is the gun pointed at ? You mean the Fedayeen ? the other Baath party members ? The ones from other countries who came to cause trouble ? Perhaps we should disarm our troops and let the Mullahs and Baath party members back into power.
We're teaching peace to the conquered.
They haven't had peace for 25 years. The point of our guns were the only thing that made and is making that peace possible. Perhaps they could just post signs, guns not wanted here and the Baathists and others would go home, they are bringing guns into the mosques you know.
Bill, you think I don't care about troops dying ? WRONG. I don't want to have to go back again and have even more die. If we leave now, the clerics or baath party will walz right in and we'll be back at square one. Let's finish it and give it a chance over there so we don't have to go back.
By Ron Fournier, Associated Press, 6/18/2003 21:04
LEBANON, N.H. (AP) Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry said Wednesday that President Bush broke his promise to build an international coalition against Iraq's Saddam Hussein and then waged a war based on questionable intelligence.
''He misled every one of us,'' Kerry said. ''That's one reason why I'm running to be president of the United States.''...
... ''I believe I can hold President Bush accountable if they have misled us,'' he said.
But things were different back in 1998 when he said, "If there is not unfettered, unrestricted, unlimited access per the U.N. resolution for inspections, and UNSCOM cannot in our judgment appropriately perform its functions, then we obviously reserve the rights to press that case internationally and to do what we need to do as a nation in order to be able to enforce those rights. Saddam Hussein has already used these weapons and has made it clear that he has the intent to continue to try, by virtue of his duplicity and secrecy, to continue to do so. That is a threat to the stability of the Middle East. It is a threat with respect to the potential of terrorist activities on a global basis. It is a threat even to regions near but not exactly in the Middle East."
If President Bush lied to us, didn't Kerry also lie to us? I wish someone would ask him about his comments and what was different in 1998.
In New Hampshire yesterday, Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry said President Bush broke his promise to build an international coalition against Iraq's Saddam Hussein and then waged a war based on questionable intelligence.
But 5 years ago, Sen. Kerry seemed to warn of Saddam's nuclear and biological capabilities as he argued the U.S. must do what it has to do, with or without other nations!
From the official congressional record: Warned Of Saddam Nuclear And Biological Capabilities:
"It is not possible to overstate the ominous implications for the Middle East if Saddam were to develop and successfully militarize and deploy potent biological weapons. We can all imagine the consequences. Extremely small quantities of several known biological weapons have the capability to exterminate the entire population of cities the size of Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. These could be delivered by ballistic missile, but they also could be delivered by much more pedestrian means; aerosol applicators on commercial trucks easily could suffice. If Saddam were to develop and then deploy usable atomic weapons, the same holds true." (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)
Use Of Force Against Saddam Justified To Prevent WMD Production:
'[Saddam Hussein] cannot be permitted to go unobserved and unimpeded toward his horrific objective of amassing a stockpile of weapons of mass destruction. This is not a matter about which there should be any debate whatsoever in the Security Council, or, certainly, in this Nation."(Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)
Military Force Should Be Used Against Suspected WMD
"In my judgment, the Security Council should authorize a strong U.N. military response that will materially damage, if not totally destroy, as much as possible of the suspected infrastructure for developing and manufacturing weapons of mass destruction, as well as key military command and control nodes. Saddam Hussein should pay a grave price, in a currency that he understands and values, for his unacceptable behavior. This should not be a strike consisting only of a handful of cruise missiles hitting isolated targets primarily of presumed symbolic value." (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)
U.S. May Have To Go It Alone To Stop Saddam:
"Were its willingness to serve in these respects to diminish or vanish because of the ability of Saddam to brandish these weapons, then the ability of the United Nations or remnants of the gulf war coalition, or even the United States acting alone, to confront and halt Iraqi aggression would be gravely damaged." (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)
U.S. Must Do What It Has To Do, With Or Without Other Nations:
"[W]hile we should always seek to take significant international actions on a multilateral rather than a unilateral basis whenever that is possible, if in the final analysis we face what we truly believe to be a grave threat to the well-being of our Nation or the entire world and it cannot be removed peacefully, we must have the courage to do what we believe is right and wise." (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)
I'm not going to read them through twice but I didn't see where Kerry said Saddam had WMD's.
Either way it doesn't matter. Those quotes are only useful as GOP talking points. The world changed after Sept. 11. New dynamics, new players, new everything.
You can't use the facts of the past against a liberal. The liberals have a statute of limitations on what they say. Anything they say can only be used against them when they said it and once the conversation is over they are free to change positions without consequence. Keep it up liberals, in 2004 your numbers in power will diminish further as it is impossible for them to stick to an issue.
Rich T 6/10/03 4:44pm
Thanks Rich :)
Rick,
Sure, I think there is. I don't know a specific deadline in peoples minds exist but as long as I see the effort I'm willing to be patient. It took 12 years to clean up the mess in Iraq. It will take more time as well. I'm more hopeful of Iraq than Afghanistan simply becasue although there's different ethnicities and relgious sects their are really only 3 major ones. Some of their people are educated and seem to have a drive about them. In Afghanistan it's all tribal klans and alliances that flow and change every year. It's been a 18th centurty country, well,,,,,,since the 18th century. Not saying that we should leave or not try, I just don't have much hope for it.
As far as Osama and Saddamn. IMO I think there's a 70% chance their both dead as doornails. I can't see those two not wanting to taunt us or show the power they have or believe they do. They (especially Binny) would want to inspire followers. They'd be on Al Jazerra every day giving us the finger.
We could certainly speed up the effort to catch them if we wanted to start conflicts with Pakistan, Syria, Iran and possibly Sudan, Yemen etc. You were lamenting about Syria today. I don't know if that would be worth it. We took out a prick like Saddamn who was a mass murderer and look at the hand wringing. Good God, we took out this thug and people with an agenda are ticked apparently. I think it's most important to disrupt their networks and take out the people helping them. Speaking of I'm glad we're getting the hell out of Saudi Arabia.
If they are alive I'll ask you this this. You're rich, you have billions and billions. You have loyal supporters not just in your country but others as well. You live in a place that has borders with sympathetic people, the terrain is rugged. You have well established networks throughout the globe and some muscle and money to back it up and make it happen not to mention corrupt police and officials. Think you could disappear ?
In this country alone their's people we're looking for, Eric Rudolph at the top of the list who was wanted, people were searching for 5 years and he didn't have a nickle. He managed to live in rural and urban areas. Give me a billion, some armed henchmen, some sympathetic followers and an established network and good luck trying to find me. It could take a long time.
Double Duece Double Tre' JOE !
Well you can't just automatically assume the opposite either. And why do you keep asking that as if any of this was based solely on something Saddam said?
I'm not automatically assuming. Everything points to him still having WMD.
Saddam didn't abide by one single UN saction. He kicked out the weapons inspectors. He continued to gain at the expense of his people. He played cat and mouse with the UN for a dozen years...
What other logical conclusion is there?
After what Circuit City did to it's employees recently, I'm reminding myself never to buy anything there.
A shocking story in the Wall Street Journal today details Bloody Wednesday at Circuit City. According to the Journal 3,900 people who made the highest commissioned sales were canned. The company then hired 2,100 people because they could pay them less.
And Circuit City was proud of it. It was a big show to the investors it was cutting cost.
I think it's as low as it gets. But maybe that makes me a fogey, tied to some silly notion that when you perform well in the United States a company rewards you instead of throwing you out in the street because they want someone cheaper.
Not sure how that relates to Iraq but thanks for posting the story. I agree, that's total B.S. What's really odd is that I was there just yesterday. I used to go there just because I had so many bad experiences with Best Buy, mainly their return policy. They made you feel like a criminal for wanting to return something with the recipt and unopened. I told them to stuff their 25% restocking fee. I told them to give me my money and I'd go put it back on the shelf myself. So if you know anyone who needs a Lynsky (sp) router unopened it can be their's for half price. I'd rather lose money than lose it to them. Now I'm gonna have to go back there because like you I won't be giving a nickel to Circut City. Bad P.R like that will come back to bite em. I hope it does.
I wonder how much money those top sales people brought into Circuit City. It appears the company wants to be more like Best Buy.
I rarely get active in areas like this, but I'm writing to Circuit City and telling them why I'm never going to shop there.
It makes you wonder how wrong Dennis actually is. Perhaps not as much as we think.
Rick 6/11/03 12:36pm
He's still wrong. The marketplace will correct it. One of the reasons I went to Circut City aside from Best Buy was the service. If they want to go to a bare bones type of service they'll have to lower their prices too. Perhaps they are also in financial trouble. Everytime I've been in one there isn't many people. They are a company and free to run it as they want, it's their perogative. Markets have a way of punishing and rewarding behavior. If the service stinks and the prices high they're done or it will severly hurt. People won't go their because of it and it will be a p.r nightmare as it should. I won't be going there either anymore.
P.S, whatever they might save short term they'll lose through fewer customers and the lawsuits from this will be huge.
BTW, do you have a link to that story ?
I get the WSJ delivered. I think you have to pay to access artiicles on the website.
I buy most everything online now. You get things cheaper, and usually without paying tax. It's usually still a better deal, even with shipping.
no kidding. i picked up a replacement stereo for my car that retails for $700 for $375 +20 bucks shipping on ebay. now if only the damn thing would hurry up and get here. and yes, i know that's more than what i paid for the original deck; with this one, the whole damn deck is coming out of the car instead of just the face plate. its real tempting to put a note on the dash to the effect of "the stereo's in the house, asshole, where the insurance is provided by smith & wesson. i dare ya."
Itchy trigger finger, ares?
Kinda scary, there.
nah if i had an itchy trigger finger, i'd booby trap the car.
So you know how to do that, too?
You're getting scarier.
awww, come on rick. is that a hint of jealousy i detect?
Got me there. There's a pretty good chance I'd end up shooting myself if I tried to booby trap a car.
What's all this about trapping boobies? I've been running a little low on boobies lately. How do I get a hold of one of those thingamajigs?
Ares is like McGuyver. Give him a stick of gum, some tinfiol a safety pin and an aresol can and he'll fashion a thermonuclear device for you in about 10 minutes.
In fact I think in his avatar pic he's rigging the frog to explode so he can see if the medallion was in there. I question his placement of the ordinance but I'm sure it worked.
Note to foreign fighters, fedayeen and baaaath party members in Iraq. An rpg fired at an M1 tank is about the equivilent of a moth hitting your windshield on the highway. You'll hear it and see it but that's about all.
You have a pretty poor view of these folks if you don't believe that they are capable of such a thing. Do you feel that way about all those with a better tan than you got or just certain ones?
If you can EVER find a statement of mine that belittles anyone because of their race, please, show it to me... ?
Alright Archie...
This is the first Vietnam of the 21st Century, and if you think we will EVER leave Iraq as a working, Peaceful-Democracy, I suggest you have your heads examined.
It would seem that any country consisting of people darker than yourself would be unable to form a democracy.
How about this:
Do you think the current administration would rather have a totalitarian regime in Iraq that plays ball with the US (as in crushing militant Islam and dealing oil) or a democracy that is like, say, France?
Do we know for certain that a plurality of the Iraqi people want democracy? We might think it's the best way to go, but is it up to us to decide that for them?
What if the go Wahabi muslim like Saudi Arabia, and force women under the veil?
"It would seem that any country consisting of people darker than yourself would be unable to form a democracy. "
After a second look, I find this statement a bit arrogant and presumptuous. How do you know that they even want a democracy? Unable? -- maybe they're unwilling.
Maybe they find U.S. style democracy chaotic and disorderly. Maybe the forced imposition of Western culture and customs is also viewed as an insult in many quarters. Granted, I haven't talked with many Iraqis so I could be wrong, but history (of many nations) shows that assuming other countrries want what we want has led to some disasters.
Do not take my words out of context! I was stating what it appears that Fold is trying to say. He spoke of the Vietnamese who are darker skinned and compared them to the Iraqi people who are darker skinned.
Now you appear to be saying that they do not want to chose their government. Are you implying that they want to have Hussein back killing and torturing their people?
But you spoke of their ability to establish a democracy, as if that defined them as something resembling "people like us." Maybe your making all kinds of assumptions about them. Maybe it has nothing to do with ability.
"Now you appear to be saying that they do not want to chose their government."
Maybe they don't want to choose democracy.
"Are you implying that they want to have Hussein back killing and torturing their people? "
There's no choice except totalitarian dictatorships and democracy? I think there are others. But I'm guessing most conservatives feel there is ONLY free-market democracy and the rest is totalitarian dictatorship, just under a different name.
If given the choice, what do you think the Bush people would want in Iraq, Dan a totalitarian government that's a toady to the U.S. or a democracy that defies the U.S.?
you can fuck-off, for even accusing me of such a thing.
That's all the proof I need. These darkies are incapable of any such a thing as democracy and would rather have a dictatorship as Rick so eloquently pointed out. You win Archie.
If you read op-ed pages...
Are those the same ones that said we would be slaughtered if we went there? Are they the same ones that said we were bogged down?
Stocks Soar as Dow Ends at 11-Month High (Fold deeply saddened)
Is that what I did? Or are you accusing me of that so you can dodge my questions?
Oh yeah, your question...
If given the choice, what do you think the Bush people would want in Iraq, Dan a totalitarian government that's a toady to the U.S. or a democracy that defies the U.S.?
I cannot speak for the president, but personally I would rather see a democracy because they are easier to work with in general. We have disagreed with many before, but it rarely becomes an all out war like has happened with totalitarian or dictatorship governments not to mention all the problems that they create for their own people.
Dow rings up triple-digit gain on manufacturing data
Monday June 16, 12:06 pm ET
By Steve Gelsi
NEW YORK (CBS.MW) - The Dow Jones Industrial Average rang up triple-digit gains Monday, led by airline and financial stocks, after a Federal Reserve report showed that manufacturing activity is increasing in New York...
Hard to argue with your answer, but it was a little like saying you were against clubbing puppies. Pretty easy stand to take.
Two pair joe
Dan,
In fairness to Bill I don't think I've ever heard him say anything to indicate he's racist or is biggoted. Don't mean to jump in the middle but I've never seen it. O.K I'll remove my nose from where it doesn't belong now.
Bill,
This is NOT Vietnam ,major differences here and you know that. First off you were saying that after 1 week of fighting when you were criticizing the plan. Never mind we moved and made gains in territory unprecedented in military history. As far as what's happening now, yes people are still dying and it's sad. However it's also part of the commitment we made to restoring peace and order or at least trying. It's sad that anyone had to die wether it be in a humvee accident or yesterday or 2 days into the battle. What's the solution, pack up and leave right away ? Let the Mullahs come in and create another fundie Islamist state ? It could happen at any time I guess but to leave without giving it a real chance would be not only self defeating but also mean those very people making sacrifices today would be a diservice to what they've done IMO. If we did so we'd simply be dealing with them again down the road. Anything's possible but part of the reason for going was to rid the country of a brutal regime. Walking away and allowing another to walk in would be a horrid move.
Yes it's a tall order and yes it takes time. We still have troops in Kosovo and it's been 10 years, we're 3 months into this. Seems patience is selective I guess.
The fundie zeaolts are being rooted out and eventually will have to decide if they want to keep dying wholesale, go back to where they came from to fight us infidels or give up and move on. They can and will be overcome by a populace that wants freedom from oppression. They know what kind of oppression the fundies bring because they lived under it for years.
Every war and every country is different, difficulties do not make it Vietnam. That war was fought with so many political cuffs that overall victory was never possible because of the restraints imposed by the higher ups. Culture, terrain, climate, the public, etc. etc. The differences are too many to list.
Rick,
Well perhaps you could point out the differences then. We have free market democracy, socialism, communism, totalarian rule, theocratic rule, facist rule, dictatorships and monarchies. Perhaps you could point out which of those you feel would be better for Iraq.
Yes, I think we should do everything in our power to promote and nurture a democracy. For one, it's rare that democracies fight one another, disagree, yes, as Dan pointed out. But look at history over the last 200 years and what you'll find is that in most conflicts one of the countires was anything but free market democraices. Democracy allows people to decide for themselves which direction to go as a country. None of the others allow that or at least to that degree. Perhaps you could say which forms you think they'd be better off under.
Is it presumptious ? Could be, but should we have left the Nazi's or Imperial Japanese in power after the war just because we didn't want to be somehow imposing our will ? Of course not, democracy is the ultimate in non imposisition. Even if a majority wanted to go whabbist the minority doesn't or at the least doesn't have a say. In any of the mentioned forms of government democracy is really the only one that gives people at least a say in their future. Ask the Shiites about that. The only ones usually who prosper in a theocracy, monarchy etc etc. are the ones who are in power, that's one of the things that got us to where we are today. If things change 20 years from now you deal with it, but we should give it our best effort at actual change and reform in the ME, it's long overdue.
In fairness to Bill I don't think I've ever heard him say anything to indicate he's racist or is biggoted.
I know that and am just pulling his chain. It is fun to turn the table on the left and claim racism where none is actually meant like they sometimes do to those that they disagree with.
As for your other posts, well done. I totally agree.
"Perhaps you could point out which of those you feel would be better for Iraq. "
Free market democracy would be best in my opinion. But it seems that it is being instituted at the point of a gun.
We're teaching peace to the conquered.
Rick 6/17/03 9:49am
Whom is the gun pointed at ? You mean the Fedayeen ? the other Baath party members ? The ones from other countries who came to cause trouble ? Perhaps we should disarm our troops and let the Mullahs and Baath party members back into power.
They haven't had peace for 25 years.
The point of our guns were the only thing that made and is making that peace possible. Perhaps they could just post signs, guns not wanted here and the Baathists and others would go home, they are bringing guns into the mosques you know.
Bill, you think I don't care about troops dying ? WRONG. I don't want to have to go back again and have even more die. If we leave now, the clerics or baath party will walz right in and we'll be back at square one. Let's finish it and give it a chance over there so we don't have to go back.
all kidding aside... Fuck-Off.
Come on Fold, you have accused people of being racist before by twisting their words and you tell me to fuck off? Quite the debator.
But things were different back in 1998 when he said, "If there is not unfettered, unrestricted, unlimited access per the U.N. resolution for inspections, and UNSCOM cannot in our judgment appropriately perform its functions, then we obviously reserve the rights to press that case internationally and to do what we need to do as a nation in order to be able to enforce those rights. Saddam Hussein has already used these weapons and has made it clear that he has the intent to continue to try, by virtue of his duplicity and secrecy, to continue to do so. That is a threat to the stability of the Middle East. It is a threat with respect to the potential of terrorist activities on a global basis. It is a threat even to regions near but not exactly in the Middle East."
If President Bush lied to us, didn't Kerry also lie to us? I wish someone would ask him about his comments and what was different in 1998.
didn't Kerry also lie to us?
Depends on the meaning of the word "lie".
If that's the Kerry quote that gets passed around, as evidence of -- I'm not sure what -- where in there did he say that Saddam has WMD's?
Where's the lie?
You're right, Rick.
He's not guilty of lying. He's simply guilty of hypocrisy.
"....what was different in 1998."
Since 9/11? -- Only everything.
Do you have a little badge that says "Hypocrisy Cop," JT?
"Hypocrisy Cop"
Yep
Well, you must be a busy guy.
In New Hampshire yesterday, Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry said President Bush broke his promise to build an international coalition against Iraq's Saddam Hussein and then waged a war based on questionable intelligence.
But 5 years ago, Sen. Kerry seemed to warn of Saddam's nuclear and biological capabilities as he argued the U.S. must do what it has to do, with or without other nations!
From the official congressional record: Warned Of Saddam Nuclear And Biological Capabilities:
"It is not possible to overstate the ominous implications for the Middle East if Saddam were to develop and successfully militarize and deploy potent biological weapons. We can all imagine the consequences. Extremely small quantities of several known biological weapons have the capability to exterminate the entire population of cities the size of Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. These could be delivered by ballistic missile, but they also could be delivered by much more pedestrian means; aerosol applicators on commercial trucks easily could suffice. If Saddam were to develop and then deploy usable atomic weapons, the same holds true." (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)
Use Of Force Against Saddam Justified To Prevent WMD Production:
'[Saddam Hussein] cannot be permitted to go unobserved and unimpeded toward his horrific objective of amassing a stockpile of weapons of mass destruction. This is not a matter about which there should be any debate whatsoever in the Security Council, or, certainly, in this Nation."(Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)
Military Force Should Be Used Against Suspected WMD
"In my judgment, the Security Council should authorize a strong U.N. military response that will materially damage, if not totally destroy, as much as possible of the suspected infrastructure for developing and manufacturing weapons of mass destruction, as well as key military command and control nodes. Saddam Hussein should pay a grave price, in a currency that he understands and values, for his unacceptable behavior. This should not be a strike consisting only of a handful of cruise missiles hitting isolated targets primarily of presumed symbolic value." (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)
U.S. May Have To Go It Alone To Stop Saddam:
"Were its willingness to serve in these respects to diminish or vanish because of the ability of Saddam to brandish these weapons, then the ability of the United Nations or remnants of the gulf war coalition, or even the United States acting alone, to confront and halt Iraqi aggression would be gravely damaged." (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)
U.S. Must Do What It Has To Do, With Or Without Other Nations:
"[W]hile we should always seek to take significant international actions on a multilateral rather than a unilateral basis whenever that is possible, if in the final analysis we face what we truly believe to be a grave threat to the well-being of our Nation or the entire world and it cannot be removed peacefully, we must have the courage to do what we believe is right and wise." (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)
I'm not going to read them through twice but I didn't see where Kerry said Saddam had WMD's.
Either way it doesn't matter. Those quotes are only useful as GOP talking points. The world changed after Sept. 11. New dynamics, new players, new everything.
Wolvie,
You can't use the facts of the past against a liberal. The liberals have a statute of limitations on what they say. Anything they say can only be used against them when they said it and once the conversation is over they are free to change positions without consequence. Keep it up liberals, in 2004 your numbers in power will diminish further as it is impossible for them to stick to an issue.
Rick, did you hear WLOL is changing their format to jazz?
You're a jazz fan, right?