I'll give you examples when you show me where I said that you do it All the Fucking Time. Then you can cuss at me some more and threaten me while others accuse me of information overload.
LOL was a 60's and 70's rock station. I listened yesterday and heard slow older rock. Maybe they just have to get some more of the music that they want to play first.
Don't some of those songs deserve to die with dignity?
Exactly! I think the same way for some radio stations. How KQ can survive without expanding their play list by more than 10 songs a year is beyond me. Are there that many people that are just too lazy to change the station once Barnyard is finished?
Editor's Note: This is an open letter from U.S. Army Maj. Eric Rydbom in Iraq to the First Lutheran Church of Richmond Beach in Shoreline, Wash. Rydbom is Deputy Division Engineer of the 4th Infantry Division.
It has been a while since I have written to my friends at First Lutheran Church about what's really going on here in Iraq. The news you watch on TV is exaggerated, sensationalized and selective. Good news doesn't sell.
The stuff you don't hear about on CNN?
Let's start with electrical power production in Iraq. The day after the war was declared over, there was nearly 0 power being generated in Iraq. Just 45 days later, in a partnership between the Army, the Iraqi people and some private companies, there are now 3200 megawatts (Mw) of power being produced daily, 1/3 of the total national potential of 8000 Mw. Downed power lines (big stuff, 400 Kilovolt (Kv) and 132 Kv) are being repaired and are about 70 percent complete.
Then there is water purification. In central Iraq between Baghdad and Mosul, home of the 4th Infantry Division, water treatment was spotty at best. The facilities existed, but the controls were never implemented. Simple chemicals like Chlorine for purification and Alum (Aluminum Sulfate) for sediment settling (the Tigris River is about as clear as the Mississippi River) were in very short supply or not used at all. When chlorine was used, it was metered by the scientific method of guessing.
So some people got pool water to drink and some people got water with lots of little things floating around in it. We are slowly but surely solving that. Contracts for repairs to facilities that are only 50 percent or less operational are being let, chemicals are being delivered, although we don't have the metering problem solved yet ( ... but again, it's only been 45 days).
How about oil and fuel? Well the war was all about oil wasn't it? You bet it was. It was all about oil for the Iraqi people! They have no other income, they produce nothing else. Oil is 95 percent of the Iraqi GNP. For this nation to survive, it must sell oil.
The Refinery at Bayji is [operating] at 75 percent of capacity producing gasoline. The crude pipeline between Kirkuk (Oil Central) and Bayji will be repaired by tomorrow (2 June). LPG, what all Iraqis use to cook and heat with, is at 103 percent of normal production and we, the U.S. Army, are ensuring it is being distributed fairly to all Iraqis.
You have to remember that only three months ago, all these things were used by the Saddam regime as weapons against the population to keep them in line. If your town misbehaved, gasoline shipments stopped, LPG pipelines and trucks stopped, water was turned off, power was turned off.
Now, until exports start, every drop of gasoline produced goes to the Iraqi people. Crude oil is being stored and the country is at 75 percent capacity right now. They need to export or stop pumping soon, so thank the U.N. for the delay.
All LPG goes to the Iraqi people everywhere. Water is being purified as best it can be, but at least its running all the time to everyone.
Are we still getting shot at? Yep.
Are American soldiers still dying? Yep, about one a day from my outfit, the 4th Infantry Division, most in accidents, but dead is dead.
If we are doing all this for the Iraqis, why are they shooting at us?
The general Iraqi population isn't shooting at us. There are still bad guys who won't let go of the old regime. They are Ba'ath party members (Read Nazi Party, but not as nice) who have known nothing but and supported nothing but the regime all of their lives. These are the thugs for the regime who caused many to disappear in the night. They have no other skills. At least the Nazis [in Germany] had jobs and a semblance of a national infrastructure that they could go back to after the war, as plumbers, managers, engineers, etc. These people have no skills but terror. They are simply applying their skills ... and we are applying ours.
There is no Christian way to say this, but they must be eliminated and we are doing so with all the efficiency we can muster. Our troops are shot at literally everyday by small arms and Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPGs). We respond. One hundred percent of the time, the Ba''ath party guys come out with the short end of the stick.
The most amazing thing to me is that they don't realize that if they stopped shooting at us, we would focus on fixing things more quickly and then leave back to the land of the Big PX. The more they shoot at us, the longer we will have to stay.
Lastly, all of you please realize that 90 percent of the damage you see on TV was caused by Iraqis, not by us and not by the war. Sure, we took out a few bridges from military necessity, we took out a few power and phone lines to disrupt communications, sure we drilled a few palaces and government headquarters buildings with 2000 lb. laser guided bombs (I work 100 yards from where two hit the Tikrit Palace), [but] he had plenty to spare.
But, any damage you see to schools, hospitals, power generation facilities, refineries, pipelines, was all caused either by the Iraqi Army in its death throes or from much of the Iraqi civilians looting the places.
Could we have prevented it? Nope.
We can and do now, but 45 days ago, the average soldier was fighting for his own survival and trying to get to his objectives as fast as possible. He was lucky to know what town he was in much less be informed enough to know who owned what or have the power to stop 1,000 people from looting and burning a building by himself.
The United States and our allies, especially Great Britain, are doing a very noble thing here. We stuck our necks out on the world's chopping block to free an entire people from the grip of a horrible terror that was beyond belief.
I've already talked the weapons of mass destruction thing to death - bottom line, who cares? This country was one big conventional weapons ammo dump anyway. We have probably destroyed more weapons and ammo in the last 30 days than the U.S. Army has ever fired in the last 30 years (remember, this is a country the size of Texas), so drop the WMD argument as the reason we came here. If we find it great if we don't, so what?
I'm living in a "guest palace" on a 500-acre palace compound with 20 palaces with like facilities built in half a dozen towns all over Iraq that were built for one man. Drive down the street and out into the countryside five miles away like I have and see all the families of 10 or more, all living in mud huts and herding the two dozen sheep on which their very existence depends ...then tell me why you think we are here.
WMD is an important issue. We have to find them wherever they may be (in Syria?), but that is not our real motivator. Don't let it be yours either.
Respectfully,
ERIC RYDBOM MAJOR, ENGINEER Deputy Division Engineer 4th Infantry Division
45 days and they have 1/3 of the power back. Well gee, I guess I should be impressed. It didn't even take them that long to fight the war (as Bush defines it).
No clean water, but it's "only been 45 days". Too bad a person a person can die of thirst in only three. Not like they have to worry about being in a desert in the middle of summer or anything.
Although this letter is obviously trying to put a different slant on things, I don't see the facts of the letter contradicting anything the news has reported whatsoever. No one ever claimed (that I heard) that the U.S. caused all the damage in Iraq. But the power has been slow to come back. The water has been slow to come back. The oil has been not as slow to come back. The news has reported that continuing attacks have slowed efforts (an apparent miscalculation on Bush's part as they seemed to think once they got rid of Saddam, everyone would be happy to have us there.) And as for the WMD's, just because this one guy doesn't care and is sick of hearing about it doesn't mean the issue is irrelevant.
45 days and they have 1/3 of the power back. Well gee, I guess I should be impressed. It didn't even take them that long to fight the war (as Bush defines it).
You should be, for one, the technology is early century, we're trying to patch it or upgrade it, and here's something you might not have thought of, and it's something the guys from excel don't have to deal with. People are trying to kill those restoring power and water and sabotoging what they do fix.
Good thing we have patient people like yourselves to keep the homefires burning.
No clean water, but it's "only been 45 days". Too bad a person a person can die of thirst in only three.
That's why we shipped it in nice plastic bottles and water buffalos until we could get it restored.
I talked recently to the wife of one of my best friends who is still currently in Iraq. The stories of water and electric have been overblown I trust him far more than I trust any media outlet. In the past water and electricity were used as bargainin chips by Saddamn. The stories of looting have been overblown as well. He's been all over Iraq, it's a vast country and filled with millions of people, you're bound to get differing opinions. The vast majority are damn glad we're doing what we're doing and glad we're there. All a repoter needs to do is find a Sunni or Baath party loyalist to interview. It would be similar to a reporter interviewing say a green party member and reporting it as the mood throughout the country.
Sounds more than "significant", and no "small element" could plan this and then pull it off, Mr. Rumsfeld.
Where are you getting that from ? It's not hard to set an ambush, especially if you know the neighborhood and whom to trust etc. It's also not real hard to take down a chopper as it's taking off or landing, they're a big slow moving target. Insertion and distraction is very very dangerous and I believe it was a 47' or as we called them , shithooks. They are big old and slow and loud. It doesn't take alot of people to cause mayhem, 19 people did alot of damage here. It doesn't take much, blow an oil pump, light a power plant on fire, shoot down a chopper, and snipe at troops. RPG's over there are about as common over there as sand. It takes very little to make an impact.
It would seem that the time is drawing near when we will have to face the fact that if we stay, the deaths will continue, and if they continue for another 1, 2, 3, or even 5 years?
Let's hope not, lets also finish the damn job this time. I don't like seeing troops dying and getting wounded any more than you do. I have friends there in that dump right now and yes I want them all home asap but I also don't want them or future soilders to go back bedcause some taliban like sect has taken over. We're still in Bosnia, I do remember hearing a rumor of home for Christmas though they never said which Christmas I guess.
It will take some time, I want them out ASAP too but not at the cost of walking away without giving it a chance. I can only imagine the cries then, they whine when we don't have infastructure when there was none before or minimal at best, this after decades of war and poverty, but you better have it looking like Duluth in 3 months or else. Then I guess they'd whine because we abandoned them, how much food, water and electric would they have then ? How ever much the thugs that took over doled out.
Think about how many died on one day alone in June 6th 1944? How many died in 3 days on Iwo Jima? Each one of them sad and tragic no doubt. In the bigger picture I can't imagine the public having a reaction like that. I can't imagine the hand wringing especially considering the cost and the goal. I guess some have forgotten that.
The "support" will fade much sooner than that.
Already appears to have done so with some doesn't it.
Not a smoking gun here yet IMO but some very interesting finds in Iraq. The admin is also saying it's not a smoking gun either but is a good start.
WASHINGTON, June 25 — U.S. investigators in Iraq have found equipment for a nuclear weapons program and millions of detailed documents relating to chemical and biological weapons, U.S. officials told NBC News on Wednesday.
NBC News has learned of several recent discoveries, some within the past week, one related to nuclear weapons and the others to chemical, biological and banned conventional weapons.
Three U.S. officials told NBC’s Andrea Mitchell that an Iraqi scientist who was part of what Saddam called his “nuclear mujahadeen” had led intelligence officials to a barrel in the back yard of his home in Baghdad, where they found plans for a gas centrifuge and components of a uranium enrichment system.
The Associated Press, citing a U.S. intelligence official, identified the scientist later as Mahdi Shukur Obeidi, who headed Iraq’s program to make centrifuges that would enrich uranium for nuclear weapons before the 1991 Gulf War. NBC’s sources said the plans dated back to the end of the Gulf War, when Saddam was already widely known to be seeking such weapons, and came as no great surprise.
Here's the really interesting find IMO.
CHEMICAL, BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS The more significant discoveries were related to Saddam’s attempts to rebuild chemical and biological arsenals like those he was known to have used during the Iran-Iraq War of the late 1980s, when he was supported by the U.S. government.  Â
Sources told NBC News’ Jim Miklaszewski that within just the past week, U.S. investigators had found two shipping containers filled with millions of much more recent documents relating to chemical and biological weapons.
Hmmm ? Interesting.
One of the documents, from 2001, was titled “Document burial and U.N. activities in Iraq,” the sources said. It gave detailed instructions on how to hide materials and deceive U.N. weapons inspectors, the sources said.
Other documents related to the concealment of VX nerve gas, the sources said. The sources said U.S. troops also discovered about 300 sacks of castor beans, which are used to make the deadly biological agent ricin, hidden in a warehouse in the town of al-Aziziyah, 50 miles southeast of Baghdad, the capital. The castor beans were inaccurately labeled as fertilizer. Â Â
So let's see, we have insturctions on how to hide WMD's from UN inspectors. Wait I thought they didn't have them ? Why have instructions on how to hide something you don't have ?
So we have nuke building components buried under some rose bushes and documents as recent as 2001 on how to hide stuff from inspectors. Gee, 2 more violations of UN resolutions. Nah, they didn't have em. What it should make clear to those without a political bend that really do care where WMD's are is that by splitting up components of programs they are extremly hard to find. Would Hans and co. looked under that rosebush ?
Not a chance with Saddamn still in power, Scientists who spilled the beans had a tendancy of having accidents. So there's no way this stuff would be found under UN inspections with Sadddamn in his throne and those people intimidated. They surely wouldn't have started digging under rose bushes in some guys backyard without the scientist free to talk. It shows how useless the UN inspections would have been, not due to any fault of the inspectors but there's no way they would have found it without that scientist cooperating.
I heard a UN inspector say recently that the chemical weapons and their components would fill 2-3 swimming pools. The delivery systems could be conventional so all that's needed is a small warhead. Remember how much damage one little envelope of anthrax caused ? O.K Now go find that in the state of California with vast expands of desert. And if you haven't found it in 3 months were gonna be all over you, good luck and don't forget to look in the garden.
It will take time but these things will be found. The other scientists are apparently watching to see if the scientist who led them to these items stays aliive, 30 years of that kind of fear does not go away easily, when it does subside I think more will talk and they'll be leading us into places we never were aware of and finding this stuff piecemeal. Spreading it out is a good strategy and will make it harder, when they are found I'm sure A) It wasn't enough and the other thing I know for sure is B) we'll have planted them or C) Aww it's just a litte VX, IT's just a little bit of Anthrax. Then they'll have to remove thier foots from their mouths (again) or move on to the next whine.
The Dems wouldn't be playing politics would they ? Naaah. They only want to get to the bottom of this I'm sure. I mean it's not like anyone else thoght he had WMD's.
Somehow it's fitting his name is Dennis.
Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio), a presidential hopeful, agreed. “It’s still early,” he said. “When the House starts to move, it’s only a matter of time that the skepticism takes hold.”
Right on Dennis, once you get some buddies in the press to beat your drum it's only a matter of time just be patient Denny, that skepticism will take hold I'm sure.
This is a quote from rep. Jim McDemott (D) The same one who went to Iraq for a photo op with uncle Saddamn that great humanitarian.
Asked whether Democratic leaders were pressing the administration hard enough, Rep. Jim McDermott (Wash.), said, “The election is 18 months away. We don’t want this to go away just yet. There’s plenty of time.”
Ooops, Guess you tipped your hand there Jimmy, SO really it's just a political issue for you and the Dems.
Righto Jimbo, if you keep screaming too soon for something many Americans don't care about anyway they'll really be tired of it then, save it for your election. Nah, it's not political, the R's are the only ones who did that, right ;)
I am sorry LUV, but more than ever, I see GDubbya as a pawn, being used/manipulated by those who planned this war and current policy, namely Rumsfeld and his chief deputy, and I don't see GDubbya extricating himself from our War in Iraq, anytime soon. In fact, last night I saw no less than 5 "Gas-Bags" on CNBC and MSNBC saying that we will still be there with a large force, until at least 2006, and perhaps until 2008.
Perhaps we will. I hope not, We're still in the Balkans too. Perhaps it's time to leave there too, eh ?
I was there almost a year. This after 4 or 5 times we were told we would be sent back home. It happens and nobody likes it but it happens. It's hard on everyone but it's also alot more wise to do so than to redeploy a different unit for a few months than to keep the current one on station for extra duty. You do your duty and keep your mission. When I was feeling sorry for myself I often thought of my Grandfather who wasn't home for 3 1/2 years.
Actually, because there Aren't any replacements for them, and that because our forces are stretched-too-thin and all over the globe, with MORE war soon to arrive(Liberia?).
Yes and there are plenty from the left and other countries who want us to go into Liberia. What happened to unilateralism ? What happened to the U.N ? What happened to "what threat do they pose ? Where's Susan Sarandon's commercials with the nuclear bomb asking what Liberia has done to us ? I guess it's o.k when it fits your agenda.
Sorry Bill, a week into the war you criticized the plan, you also predicted Democrat gains in the last elections too. I simply disagree.
Meanwhile, on the evening newscasts, the Troops keep saying, "Enough... When do we go home"? The people in Iraq are asking, "When will we get water"? The nations GDubbya has been asking to come in to help relieve our troops, are now reassessing those requests...meaning, there won't BE any.
First of all the media is doing their usual crisis sells crap. I talked directly and indirectly to people who are actually there. The media isn't giving an accurate picture at all of what's going on over there and the troops don't like it one bit. I'm sure they do want to come home, I did, who the hell wouldn't it sucks.
I predict that within 2 months, we WILL be in another war, and Dubbya's poll-numbers will be coming down, precipitously.
Well the war on terror isn't done. As for his poll numbers, we've all seen how accurate those are.
By the way, not only is the press not doing their job IMO but a story from 2 days ago didn't get much attention. It was the claim of responsibility of an AlQueda group for some of the attacks on American troops. I thought there was no AlQueda/ Binny/ Sadamn connection ? The story was a small blurb. I guess the folks who attacked us also doing so in Iraq just doesn't sell papers or fit an agenda. Take a look at this.
In the nearly two years since President Bush named Iraq as part of the "Axis of Evil," the American press has been working overtime denying that there was ever any link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11 mastermind Osama bin Laden.
But that's not what the same news outlets were saying before the 9/11 attacks, back when Bill Clinton was president and needed justification to attack Iraq.
Just weeks after Clinton bombed the daylights out of suspected hideaways for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, he used his January 1999 State of the Union Address to warn America about both bin Laden and Saddam, mentioning the two terror kingpins almost in the same breath.
"We will defend our security wherever we are threatened - as we did this summer when we struck at Osama bin Laden's network of terror," Clinton told Congress and the nation. "The bombing our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania reminds us again of the risks faced every day by those who represent America to the world."
Moments later Clinton segued into the threat posed by Saddam:
"For nearly a decade, Iraq has defied its obligations to destroy its weapons of terror and the missiles to deliver them. America will continue to contain Saddam, and we will work for the day when Iraq has a government worthy of its people."
But rather than launch an all out assault on what reporters now call the "dubious" assertion that Saddam and bin Laden had made common cause, the press took Clinton's ball and ran with it.
In fact, as researched and documented this week by FrontPageMagazine.com, in 1999 the national news media was replete with reports linking the Butcher of Baghdad and the man who masterminded the killing of 3,000 Americans almost two years ago.
Here are a few highlights gathered by FrontPage from the press' Saddam-bin Laden file – stories that have since conveniently disappeared down the media's memory hole:
Associated Press Worldstream Feb. 14, 1999 Â Â
Taliban leader says whereabouts of bin Laden unknown
.>.. Analysts say bin Laden's options for asylum are limited.
Iraq was considered a possible destination because bin Laden had received an invitation from Iraqi President Saddam Hussein last month. And Somalia was a third possible destination because of its anarchy and violent anti-U.S. history ....
San Jose Mercury News SUNDAY MORNING FINAL EDITION Feb. 14, 1999 Â Â
U.S. WORRIED ABOUT IRAQI, BIN LADEN TIES TERRORIST COULD GAIN EVEN DEADLIER WEAPONS
U.S. intelligence officials are worried that a burgeoning alliance between terrorist leader Osama bin Laden and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein could make the fugitive Saudi's loose-knit organization much more dangerous ...
In addition, the officials said, Palestinian terrorist Abu Nidal is now in Iraq, as is a renowned Palestinian bomb designer, and both could make their expertise available to bin Laden.
"It's clear the Iraqis would like to have bin Laden in Iraq," said Vincent Cannistraro, a former head of counterterrorism operations at the Central Intelligence Agency ...
Saddam has even offered asylum to bin Laden, who has expressed support for Iraq.
... [in] late December, when bin Laden met a senior Iraqi intelligence official near Qandahar, Afghanistan, there has been increasing evidence that bin Laden and Iraq may have begun cooperating in planning attacks against American and British targets around the world.
Bin Laden, who strikes in the name of Islam, and Saddam, one of the most secular rulers in the Arab world, have little in common except their hatred of the United States ...
More worrisome, the American officials said, are indications that there may be contacts between bin Laden's organization and Iraq's Special Security Organization (SSO), run by Saddam's son Qusay. Both the SSO and the Mukhabarat were involved in a failed 1993 plot to assassinate former President George Bush ...
"The idea that the same people who are hiding Saddam's biological weapons may be meeting with Osama bin Laden is not a happy one," said one American official....
Beacon Journal wire services Oct. 31, 1999 BIN LADEN SPOTTED AFTER OFFER TO LEAVE Â Â
DATELINE: JALALABAD, AFGHANISTAN:
... The Taliban has since made it known through official channels that the likely destination is Iraq.
A Clinton administration official said bin Laden's request "falls far short" of the UN resolution that the Taliban deliver him for trial. ...
The Kansas City Star March 2, 1999 Â Â
International terrorism, a conflict without boundaries
By Rich Hood
... He [bin Laden] has a private fortune ranging from $250 million to $500 million and is said to be cultivating a new alliance with Iraq's Saddam Hussein, who has biological and chemical weapons bin Laden would not hesitate to use. An alliance between bin Laden and Saddam Hussein could be deadly. Both men are united in their hatred for the United States and any country friendly to the United States. ...
United Press International Nov. 3, 1999, Wednesday, BC cycle. Â Â
WASHINGTON – The U.S. government has tried to prevent accused terror suspect Osama bin Laden from fleeing Afghanistan to either Iraq or Chechnya, Michael Sheehan, head of counter-terrorism at the State Department, told a Senate Foreign Relations subcommittee. ...
U.S. Newswire Dec. 23, 1999 Â Â
Terrorism Expert Reveals Why Osama bin Laden has Declared War On America; Available for Comment in Light of Predicted Attacks.
... Aauthor Yossef] Bodansky also reveals the relationship between bin Laden and Saddam Hussein and how the U.S. bombing of Iraq is "strengthening the hands of militant Islamists eager to translate their rage into violence and terrorism."
National Public Radio MORNING EDITION (10:00 a.m.ET) Feb. 18, 1999 Â Â
THOUGH AFGHANISTAN HAS PROVIDED OSAMA BIN LADEN WITH SANCTUARY, IT IS UNCLEAR WHERE HE IS NOW. ANCHORS: BOB EDWARDS REPORTERS: MIKE SHUSTER
... There have also been reports in recent months that bin Laden might have been considering moving his operations to Iraq. Intelligence agencies in several nations are looking into that. According to Vincent Cannistraro, a former chief of CIA counterterrorism operations, a senior Iraqi intelligence official, Farouk Hijazi(ph), sought out bin Laden in December and invited him to come to Iraq.
Mr. VINCENT CANNISTRARO (Former Chief of CIA Counterterrorism Operations): Farouk Hijazi, who was the Iraqi ambassador in Turkey ... known through sources in Afghanistan, members of Osama's entourage let it be known that the meeting had taken place.
SHUSTER: Iraq's contacts with bin Laden go back some years, to at least 1994, when, according to one U.S. government source, Hijazi met him when bin Laden lived in Sudan. According to Cannistraro, Iraq invited bin Laden to live in Baghdad to be nearer to potential targets of terrorist attack in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. There is a wide gap between bin Laden's fundamentalism and Saddam Hussein's secular dictatorship. But some experts believe bin Laden might be tempted to live in Iraq because of his reported desire to obtain chemical or biological weapons. CIA director George Tenet referred to that in recent testimony. ...
Foreign news services also carried news of the now-supressed Saddam-bin Laden connection:
Agence France-Presse Feb. 17, 1999 Â Â
Saddam plans to use bin Laden against Kuwait, Saudi: opposition
Iraq's President Saddam Hussein plans to use alleged terrorist Osama bin Laden's network to carry out his threats against Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, an Iraqi opposition figure charged on Wednesday.
"If the ... Jaber, a member of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), said Iraq had "offered to shelter bin Laden under the precondition that he carry out strikes on targets in neighbouring countries."
Deutsche Presse-Agentur Feb. 17, 1999, Wednesday, BC Cycle  Â
Opposition group says bin Laden in Iraq
DATELINE: Kuwait City
An Iraqi opposition group claimed in a published report Wednesday that Islamic militant Osama bin Laden is in Iraq from where he plans to launch a campaign of terrorism against Baghdad's Gulf neighbours.
The claim was made by Bayan Jabor, spokesman for the Teheran-based Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI).
Bin Laden "recently settled in Iraq at the invitation of Saddam Hussein in exchange for directing strikes against targets in neighbouring countries," Jabor told the Kuwaiti newspaper al-Rai al- Aam ... Taleban leaders in Afghanistan, where he had been living, said they lost track of him. Media reports have speculated he sought refuge in Chechnya, Somalia, Iraq, or with a non-Taliban group in Afghanistan.
Jabor, who was interviewed in Damascus, Syria, said Iraq began extending invitations to bin Laden six months ago, shortly after the United States bombed his suspected terrorist training camps in Afghanistan after linking him with the August 7 bombings of U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and in Dar-es-Salam, Tanzania.
The United States indicted Bin Laden for the embassy bombings and has offered a five million dollar reward for information leading to his capture. Bin Laden's disappearance has coincided with stepped up threats by Iraq against neighbours Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Turkey for allowing the United States and Britain to use their air bases to carry out air patrols over two "no-fly" zones over northern and southern Iraq. ...
Asked whether Democratic leaders were pressing the administration hard enough, Rep. Jim McDermott (D) (Wash.), said, “The election is 18 months away. We don’t want this to go away just yet. There’s plenty of time.”
Susan Jones, CNSNews.com Wednesday, July 16, 2003 A U.N. arms inspector says he is confident that within six months, he'll have "a substantial body of evidence" proving that Saddam Hussein did have a weapons of mass destruction program. Media Research Center, parent organization of CNSNews.com, reports that NBC News anchorman Tom Brokaw interviewed U.N. arms inspector David Kay for Tuesday's "Nightly News" broadcast. Brokaw described Kay as "a cautious professional who is well-aware of the political pressure," and he said Kay "is confident he can make the case against Saddam Hussein on WMD." Â Â
Kay told Brokaw: "I've already seen enough to convince me, but that's not the standard. I've got to have enough to convince everyone of that. What worries me is I know if we can't explain the WMD program of Iraq we lose credibility with regard to other states like Iran, Syria, North Korea."
He said, "I think we will have a substantial body of evidence before six months."
you make no sense, crabs. In the first sentence there is reference to a positive result. In the second there is nothing positive. You are one ignorant.....
In the first sentence there is reference to a positive result
the first one...[Why does it matter what the motives are if it accomplishes somthing that you approve of?] is clearly you stating with a rhetorical question that you think the result justifies the motive.
the second one [I suppose you are praying for another war aren't you, fold? You hate Bush so much you want to see the country go down the tubes] is trying to say that the result doesn't justify the motive.
No I am not contradicting myself and if you weren't such a closed minded fool you could see that. The difference is that in order to get the result fold wants (which in itself is a bad result)he is willing to sacrifice the nation. In the first, liberals should be happy to see that Bush is helping Africa. There is absolutely no down side other than Bush possibly getting some credit. That is only a bad thing in the liberal mind.
Jethro, you shithole, only a monster would actually WISH for a War, so fuck-off. Maybe you reconsider your desires and prayers, fold.Perhaps if you had served in uniform, (or if you had ANY common sense) you would know that, but instead you try to use it as some sort of bait to get me to sound-off for you...whatever. Serving in the military doesn't make anyone a good or decent or for that matter an intelligent person. If it did, fold, you would be a different person.It just proves that you are less than contemptible and, absolutely stupid. I call them as I see them.
In the latest in a series of grisly discoveries, the U.S. military said Thursday it found another mass grave — this one in northern Iraq and thought to contain the bodies of up to 400 Kurdish women and children slain by Saddam Hussein's regime.
Since the end of the Iraq war, at least 60 mass graves, some with hundreds of corpses, have been discovered. The United Nations (search) is investigating the killing or disappearance of at least 300,000 Iraqis believed murdered during Saddam's regime.
Funny that hasn't been on the "news" much. You'd think mass graves and 300,000 murders would be a bit more newsworthy. I guess it's no biggie. Their too busy finding an Iraqi who's pissed off that he's out of the Baath party and that his electricity is intermitant.
Of course we're willing to go into Liberia for even less and to remove someone who to my knowledge never invaded another country who didn't defy and ignore 12 years of UN sanctions. Nope, the French, Germans, The UN, the Amerihaters and Hollywood, not to mention other "Dems" who were against going in to remove a piece of shit like Hussein are suddenly all for sending troops to Liberia. Hmmmm, interesting.
Maybe the people who are in favor of the Liberia incrusion are capable of seeing distinctions.
Can you?
Sure can, I wish I could say the same for others.
like those on the left that said it was all about oil ?
Those like Susan Sarandon asked what had Iraq ever done to us ?
Or who asked What about the Iriaqi children ? Yes what abbout them, there's thousands buried still clutching their dolls. I guess that was different though.
The country is about half Muslim, won't we just be igniting hatred since we obviously don't care about Muslims and are supposedly waging war on them.
What right do we have to act, I mean Taylor was elected too, just like Saddamn.
I guess it's o.k to do all the heavy lifting when Kofi and co. say it is.
I am sure we will soon see Sean Penn and David Bonior going there soon since there will more than likely be bloodshed.
Thing is Rick I do see the distinctions and am in favor of helping if we can. The same ones who said we can't overthrow every dictator threw it out as a ploy since over the last 30 years that's pretty much what we've been doing or working towards. This whole issue has had less to do with the actual benefits of removing Saddamn than it does who was doing the removing. Not saying you at all because you've at least been consistent but it's ironic that the same arguments many on the left used re: Iraq are now in exact contradiction of their stance on Liberia. I find it hypocritical to the 10th degree.
"Like those on the left that said it was all about oil "
It was enough about oil to convince people suspicious of big business that it was all about oil.
"I guess it's o.k to do all the heavy lifting when Kofi and co. say it is. "
They probably trust the UN more than they do Bush. See above. I think a lot of opposition for the war in Iraq was out of dislike for Bush. There's no reason to deny that.
They probably trust the UN more than they do Bush. See above. I think a lot of opposition for the war in Iraq was out of dislike for Bush. There's no reason to deny that.
I'm not denying it, and I appreciate your candor, it's refreshing to hear. I agree and I think it's idiotic. As much as I dislike different leaders etc. I don't base such grave decsions as war and security becuase I don't like the guy in the White House. That's my whole point and what bothers me so greatly is that someone would do that. If someone's opposed out of religious beliefs or just a strong conviction that it was the wrong thing to do that's fine. It's those exact ones you mention that I have a serious problem with that would oppose something so serious simply because of the one doing it. To me someting so important as war should transcend partisan politics, it's been that way for years and even though there are yes disagreements and always have been, what we are seeing now is totally different and more hardened. And no it doesn't mean nor am I saying you don't criticize the president, there are ways of doing so and it's in contrast to what we're seeign now. I appreciate your honesty and candor with the situation though.
I agree and thanks Ares. I totally expect people to disagree with the President, it's the way it works, but there's also a way to go about it. I've talked to some that are opposed to the war for different reasons and although I disagree I respect that and their decision. Those that do so out of simple hatred or disdain for one person or party or a political agenda I have none for.
Like this guy, from an editorial in the San Fran Chronicle.
Dear Editor:
The constant loss of U.S. soldiers in Iraq -- after the war is "won" -- is a tragedy. However, if this is what it takes to retire the Bush administration at the next election, the sacrifice is justified.
ARIE L. BLEICHER Mill Valley
So he's o.k with troops dying if it helps elect his guy and get Bush out of office. That is traitorous IMO not to mention revolting and sick.
I'm cool with that, again we would disagree with eachother I'm sure but that's fine and what it's all about. It's the idiots like the letter writer that make me sick.
I think maybe we all tend to generalize too much in here instead of adressing the poster and his/her posistion instead of lumping them into libera vs. conservative boxes. We all have people in our corner ie: Pat Robertson/ on the right or perhaps Al Sharpton on the left that we wish would go away.
Didn't know about WLOL. What was their format before?
I'll have to give them a listen.
Do you have tourettes syndrome?
I'll give you examples when you show me where I said that you do it All the Fucking Time. Then you can cuss at me some more and threaten me while others accuse me of information overload.
LOL was a 60's and 70's rock station. I listened yesterday and heard slow older rock. Maybe they just have to get some more of the music that they want to play first.
I used to listen online to a Jazz radio station from Berlin. But they're starting to charge $8 per month. I still might pay to get that station.
Ahh, 60s and 70s rock. How much of that can a single metropolitan market endure? Don't some of those songs deserve to die with dignity?
Don't some of those songs deserve to die with dignity?
Exactly! I think the same way for some radio stations. How KQ can survive without expanding their play list by more than 10 songs a year is beyond me. Are there that many people that are just too lazy to change the station once Barnyard is finished?
Gentler sensibilities would have them avoiding KQRS completely.
KXXR all the way!
6 disc CD changer all the way
unless you have a 6 disc mp3 player that is.
Radio sucks for anything more than 10 minutes anyway
6 disc CD changer all the way
unless you have a 6 disc mp3 player that is.
kenwood music keg.
Cooler! Thank ya my brotha
Kenwood's Music Keg
I use my PDA as an MP3 player for long trips. I get about 4 hours of music on my 256 MB flash card.
Got my wife and iPod for her birthday. It can hold 100 CDs. And that's that low end -- 10 GB.
Apple rules!
06-23-2003
Sitrep: Iraq
Editor's Note: This is an open letter from U.S. Army Maj. Eric Rydbom in Iraq to the First Lutheran Church of Richmond Beach in Shoreline, Wash. Rydbom is Deputy Division Engineer of the 4th Infantry Division.
It has been a while since I have written to my friends at First Lutheran Church about what's really going on here in Iraq. The news you watch on TV is exaggerated, sensationalized and selective. Good news doesn't sell.
The stuff you don't hear about on CNN?
Let's start with electrical power production in Iraq. The day after the war was declared over, there was nearly 0 power being generated in Iraq. Just 45 days later, in a partnership between the Army, the Iraqi people and some private companies, there are now 3200 megawatts (Mw) of power being produced daily, 1/3 of the total national potential of 8000 Mw. Downed power lines (big stuff, 400 Kilovolt (Kv) and 132 Kv) are being repaired and are about 70 percent complete.
Then there is water purification. In central Iraq between Baghdad and Mosul, home of the 4th Infantry Division, water treatment was spotty at best. The facilities existed, but the controls were never implemented. Simple chemicals like Chlorine for purification and Alum (Aluminum Sulfate) for sediment settling (the Tigris River is about as clear as the Mississippi River) were in very short supply or not used at all. When chlorine was used, it was metered by the scientific method of guessing.
So some people got pool water to drink and some people got water with lots of little things floating around in it. We are slowly but surely solving that. Contracts for repairs to facilities that are only 50 percent or less operational are being let, chemicals are being delivered, although we don't have the metering problem solved yet ( ... but again, it's only been 45 days).
How about oil and fuel? Well the war was all about oil wasn't it? You bet it was. It was all about oil for the Iraqi people! They have no other income, they produce nothing else. Oil is 95 percent of the Iraqi GNP. For this nation to survive, it must sell oil.
The Refinery at Bayji is [operating] at 75 percent of capacity producing gasoline. The crude pipeline between Kirkuk (Oil Central) and Bayji will be repaired by tomorrow (2 June). LPG, what all Iraqis use to cook and heat with, is at 103 percent of normal production and we, the U.S. Army, are ensuring it is being distributed fairly to all Iraqis.
You have to remember that only three months ago, all these things were used by the Saddam regime as weapons against the population to keep them in line. If your town misbehaved, gasoline shipments stopped, LPG pipelines and trucks stopped, water was turned off, power was turned off.
Now, until exports start, every drop of gasoline produced goes to the Iraqi people. Crude oil is being stored and the country is at 75 percent capacity right now. They need to export or stop pumping soon, so thank the U.N. for the delay.
All LPG goes to the Iraqi people everywhere. Water is being purified as best it can be, but at least its running all the time to everyone.
Are we still getting shot at? Yep.
Are American soldiers still dying? Yep, about one a day from my outfit, the 4th Infantry Division, most in accidents, but dead is dead.
If we are doing all this for the Iraqis, why are they shooting at us?
The general Iraqi population isn't shooting at us. There are still bad guys who won't let go of the old regime. They are Ba'ath party members (Read Nazi Party, but not as nice) who have known nothing but and supported nothing but the regime all of their lives. These are the thugs for the regime who caused many to disappear in the night. They have no other skills. At least the Nazis [in Germany] had jobs and a semblance of a national infrastructure that they could go back to after the war, as plumbers, managers, engineers, etc. These people have no skills but terror. They are simply applying their skills ... and we are applying ours.
There is no Christian way to say this, but they must be eliminated and we are doing so with all the efficiency we can muster. Our troops are shot at literally everyday by small arms and Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPGs). We respond. One hundred percent of the time, the Ba''ath party guys come out with the short end of the stick.
The most amazing thing to me is that they don't realize that if they stopped shooting at us, we would focus on fixing things more quickly and then leave back to the land of the Big PX. The more they shoot at us, the longer we will have to stay.
Lastly, all of you please realize that 90 percent of the damage you see on TV was caused by Iraqis, not by us and not by the war. Sure, we took out a few bridges from military necessity, we took out a few power and phone lines to disrupt communications, sure we drilled a few palaces and government headquarters buildings with 2000 lb. laser guided bombs (I work 100 yards from where two hit the Tikrit Palace), [but] he had plenty to spare.
But, any damage you see to schools, hospitals, power generation facilities, refineries, pipelines, was all caused either by the Iraqi Army in its death throes or from much of the Iraqi civilians looting the places.
Could we have prevented it? Nope.
We can and do now, but 45 days ago, the average soldier was fighting for his own survival and trying to get to his objectives as fast as possible. He was lucky to know what town he was in much less be informed enough to know who owned what or have the power to stop 1,000 people from looting and burning a building by himself.
The United States and our allies, especially Great Britain, are doing a very noble thing here. We stuck our necks out on the world's chopping block to free an entire people from the grip of a horrible terror that was beyond belief.
I've already talked the weapons of mass destruction thing to death - bottom line, who cares? This country was one big conventional weapons ammo dump anyway. We have probably destroyed more weapons and ammo in the last 30 days than the U.S. Army has ever fired in the last 30 years (remember, this is a country the size of Texas), so drop the WMD argument as the reason we came here. If we find it great if we don't, so what?
I'm living in a "guest palace" on a 500-acre palace compound with 20 palaces with like facilities built in half a dozen towns all over Iraq that were built for one man. Drive down the street and out into the countryside five miles away like I have and see all the families of 10 or more, all living in mud huts and herding the two dozen sheep on which their very existence depends ...then tell me why you think we are here.
WMD is an important issue. We have to find them wherever they may be (in Syria?), but that is not our real motivator. Don't let it be yours either.
Respectfully,
ERIC RYDBOM
MAJOR, ENGINEER
Deputy Division Engineer
4th Infantry Division
I could find NO proof that this guy even exists
Try here Fold: Eric Rydbom
Atta boy Dan.
45 days and they have 1/3 of the power back. Well gee, I guess I should be impressed. It didn't even take them that long to fight the war (as Bush defines it).
No clean water, but it's "only been 45 days". Too bad a person a person can die of thirst in only three. Not like they have to worry about being in a desert in the middle of summer or anything.
Although this letter is obviously trying to put a different slant on things, I don't see the facts of the letter contradicting anything the news has reported whatsoever. No one ever claimed (that I heard) that the U.S. caused all the damage in Iraq. But the power has been slow to come back. The water has been slow to come back. The oil has been not as slow to come back. The news has reported that continuing attacks have slowed efforts (an apparent miscalculation on Bush's part as they seemed to think once they got rid of Saddam, everyone would be happy to have us there.) And as for the WMD's, just because this one guy doesn't care and is sick of hearing about it doesn't mean the issue is irrelevant.
You should be, for one, the technology is early century, we're trying to patch it or upgrade it, and here's something you might not have thought of, and it's something the guys from excel don't have to deal with. People are trying to kill those restoring power and water and sabotoging what they do fix.
Good thing we have patient people like yourselves to keep the homefires burning.
That's why we shipped it in nice plastic bottles and water buffalos until we could get it restored.
I talked recently to the wife of one of my best friends who is still currently in Iraq. The stories of water and electric have been overblown I trust him far more than I trust any media outlet. In the past water and electricity were used as bargainin chips by Saddamn. The stories of looting have been overblown as well. He's been all over Iraq, it's a vast country and filled with millions of people, you're bound to get differing opinions. The vast majority are damn glad we're doing what we're doing and glad we're there. All a repoter needs to do is find a Sunni or Baath party loyalist to interview. It would be similar to a reporter interviewing say a green party member and reporting it as the mood throughout the country.
Bill,
Where are you getting that from ? It's not hard to set an ambush, especially if you know the neighborhood and whom to trust etc. It's also not real hard to take down a chopper as it's taking off or landing, they're a big slow moving target. Insertion and distraction is very very dangerous and I believe it was a 47' or as we called them , shithooks. They are big old and slow and loud.
It doesn't take alot of people to cause mayhem, 19 people did alot of damage here. It doesn't take much, blow an oil pump, light a power plant on fire, shoot down a chopper, and snipe at troops. RPG's over there are about as common over there as sand. It takes very little to make an impact.
Let's hope not, lets also finish the damn job this time. I don't like seeing troops dying and getting wounded any more than you do. I have friends there in that dump right now and yes I want them all home asap but I also don't want them or future soilders to go back bedcause some taliban like sect has taken over. We're still in Bosnia, I do remember hearing a rumor of home for Christmas though they never said which Christmas I guess.
It will take some time, I want them out ASAP too but not at the cost of walking away without giving it a chance. I can only imagine the cries then, they whine when we don't have infastructure when there was none before or minimal at best, this after decades of war and poverty, but you better have it looking like Duluth in 3 months or else. Then I guess they'd whine because we abandoned them, how much food, water and electric would they have then ? How ever much the thugs that took over doled out.
Think about how many died on one day alone in June 6th 1944? How many died in 3 days on Iwo Jima? Each one of them sad and tragic no doubt. In the bigger picture I can't imagine the public having a reaction like that. I can't imagine the hand wringing especially considering the cost and the goal. I guess some have forgotten that.
Already appears to have done so with some doesn't it.
Not a smoking gun here yet IMO but some very interesting finds in Iraq. The admin is also saying it's not a smoking gun either but is a good start.
Here's the really interesting find IMO.
Hmmm ? Interesting.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/931304.asp?0cm=c10
So let's see, we have insturctions on how to hide WMD's from UN inspectors. Wait I thought they didn't have them ? Why have instructions on how to hide something you don't have ?
So we have nuke building components buried under some rose bushes and documents as recent as 2001 on how to hide stuff from inspectors. Gee, 2 more violations of UN resolutions. Nah, they didn't have em. What it should make clear to those without a political bend that really do care where WMD's are is that by splitting up components of programs they are extremly hard to find. Would Hans and co. looked under that rosebush ?
Not a chance with Saddamn still in power, Scientists who spilled the beans had a tendancy of having accidents. So there's no way this stuff would be found under UN inspections with Sadddamn in his throne and those people intimidated. They surely wouldn't have started digging under rose bushes in some guys backyard without the scientist free to talk. It shows how useless the UN inspections would have been, not due to any fault of the inspectors but there's no way they would have found it without that scientist cooperating.
I heard a UN inspector say recently that the chemical weapons and their components would fill 2-3 swimming pools. The delivery systems could be conventional so all that's needed is a small warhead. Remember how much damage one little envelope of anthrax caused ? O.K Now go find that in the state of California with vast expands of desert. And if you haven't found it in 3 months were gonna be all over you, good luck and don't forget to look in the garden.
It will take time but these things will be found. The other scientists are apparently watching to see if the scientist who led them to these items stays aliive, 30 years of that kind of fear does not go away easily, when it does subside I think more will talk and they'll be leading us into places we never were aware of and finding this stuff piecemeal. Spreading it out is a good strategy and will make it harder, when they are found I'm sure A) It wasn't enough and the other thing I know for sure is B) we'll have planted them or C) Aww it's just a litte VX, IT's just a little bit of Anthrax. Then they'll have to remove thier foots from their mouths (again) or move on to the next whine.
The Dems wouldn't be playing politics would they ? Naaah. They only want to get to the bottom of this I'm sure. I mean it's not like anyone else thoght he had WMD's.
Somehow it's fitting his name is Dennis.
Right on Dennis, once you get some buddies in the press to beat your drum it's only a matter of time just be patient Denny, that skepticism will take hold I'm sure.
This is a quote from rep. Jim McDemott (D) The same one who went to Iraq for a photo op with uncle Saddamn that great humanitarian.
Ooops, Guess you tipped your hand there Jimmy, SO really it's just a political issue for you and the Dems.
Righto Jimbo, if you keep screaming too soon for something many Americans don't care about anyway they'll really be tired of it then, save it for your election. Nah, it's not political, the R's are the only ones who did that, right ;)
BTW These were quotes from The Hill.
http://www.hillnews.com/news/062503/probe.aspx
What's wrong with that last news story? I'm afraid I'd have to agree with Bush on that one.
Ah, that's who you're questioning.
Do you think the President tried this?
That's pretty funny, Rick.
I predict that within 2 months, we WILL be in another war, and Dubbya's poll-numbers will be coming down, precipitously.
I suppose you are praying for another war aren't you, fold? You hate Bush so much you want to see the country go down the tubes. Very patriotic.
Bill,
Perhaps we will. I hope not, We're still in the Balkans too. Perhaps it's time to leave there too, eh ?
I was there almost a year. This after 4 or 5 times we were told we would be sent back home. It happens and nobody likes it but it happens. It's hard on everyone but it's also alot more wise to do so than to redeploy a different unit for a few months than to keep the current one on station for extra duty. You do your duty and keep your mission. When I was feeling sorry for myself I often thought of my Grandfather who wasn't home for 3 1/2 years.
Yes and there are plenty from the left and other countries who want us to go into Liberia. What happened to unilateralism ? What happened to the U.N ? What happened to "what threat do they pose ? Where's Susan Sarandon's commercials with the nuclear bomb asking what Liberia has done to us ? I guess it's o.k when it fits your agenda.
Sorry Bill, a week into the war you criticized the plan, you also predicted Democrat gains in the last elections too. I simply disagree.
First of all the media is doing their usual crisis sells crap. I talked directly and indirectly to people who are actually there. The media isn't giving an accurate picture at all of what's going on over there and the troops don't like it one bit. I'm sure they do want to come home, I did, who the hell wouldn't it sucks.
Well the war on terror isn't done. As for his poll numbers, we've all seen how accurate those are.
By the way, not only is the press not doing their job IMO but a story from 2 days ago didn't get much attention. It was the claim of responsibility of an AlQueda group for some of the attacks on American troops. I thought there was no AlQueda/ Binny/ Sadamn connection ? The story was a small blurb. I guess the folks who attacked us also doing so in Iraq just doesn't sell papers or fit an agenda. Take a look at this.
.>.. Analysts say bin Laden's options for asylum are limited.
Copyright CNSNews.com
think about it
you make no sense, crabs. In the first sentence there is reference to a positive result. In the second there is nothing positive. You are one ignorant.....
the first one...[Why does it matter what the motives are if it accomplishes somthing that you approve of?] is clearly you stating with a rhetorical question that you think the result justifies the motive.
the second one [I suppose you are praying for another war aren't you, fold? You hate Bush so much you want to see the country go down the tubes] is trying to say that the result doesn't justify the motive.
you are contradicting yourself.
No I am not contradicting myself and if you weren't such a closed minded fool you could see that. The difference is that in order to get the result fold wants (which in itself is a bad result)he is willing to sacrifice the nation. In the first, liberals should be happy to see that Bush is helping Africa. There is absolutely no down side other than Bush possibly getting some credit. That is only a bad thing in the liberal mind.
So what is Bush's bad motive for helping Africa that doesn't justify the result?
Remember jethro, you didn't serve so you don't know shit.
Jethro, you shithole, only a monster would actually WISH for a War, so fuck-off. Maybe you reconsider your desires and prayers, fold.Perhaps if you had served in uniform, (or if you had ANY common sense) you would know that, but instead you try to use it as some sort of bait to get me to sound-off for you...whatever. Serving in the military doesn't make anyone a good or decent or for that matter an intelligent person. If it did, fold, you would be a different person.It just proves that you are less than contemptible and, absolutely stupid. I call them as I see them.
Another Mass Grave Found in Iraq
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,92237,00.html
In the latest in a series of grisly discoveries, the U.S. military said Thursday it found another mass grave — this one in northern Iraq and thought to contain the bodies of up to 400 Kurdish women and children slain by Saddam Hussein's regime.
Since the end of the Iraq war, at least 60 mass graves, some with hundreds of corpses, have been discovered. The United Nations (search) is investigating the killing or disappearance of at least 300,000 Iraqis believed murdered during Saddam's regime.
Funny that hasn't been on the "news" much. You'd think mass graves and 300,000 murders would be a bit more newsworthy. I guess it's no biggie. Their too busy finding an Iraqi who's pissed off that he's out of the Baath party and that his electricity is intermitant.
Of course we're willing to go into Liberia for even less and to remove someone who to my knowledge never invaded another country who didn't defy and ignore 12 years of UN sanctions. Nope, the French, Germans, The UN, the Amerihaters and Hollywood, not to mention other "Dems" who were against going in to remove a piece of shit like Hussein are suddenly all for sending troops to Liberia. Hmmmm, interesting.
Liberia = Iraq?
Maybe the people who are in favor of the Liberia incrusion are capable of seeing distinctions.
Can you?
Maybe the people who are in favor of the Liberia incrusion are capable of seeing distinctions.
Yes they make a distinction. Whatever Bush wants to do is bad. Whatever Bush does not want to do is good!
Sure can, I wish I could say the same for others.
like those on the left that said it was all about oil ?
Those like Susan Sarandon asked what had Iraq ever done to us ?
Or who asked What about the Iriaqi children ? Yes what abbout them, there's thousands buried still clutching their dolls. I guess that was different though.
The country is about half Muslim, won't we just be igniting hatred since we obviously don't care about Muslims and are supposedly waging war on them.
What right do we have to act, I mean Taylor was elected too, just like Saddamn.
I guess it's o.k to do all the heavy lifting when Kofi and co. say it is.
I am sure we will soon see Sean Penn and David Bonior going there soon since there will more than likely be bloodshed.
Thing is Rick I do see the distinctions and am in favor of helping if we can. The same ones who said we can't overthrow every dictator threw it out as a ploy since over the last 30 years that's pretty much what we've been doing or working towards. This whole issue has had less to do with the actual benefits of removing Saddamn than it does who was doing the removing. Not saying you at all because you've at least been consistent but it's ironic that the same arguments many on the left used re: Iraq are now in exact contradiction of their stance on Liberia. I find it hypocritical to the 10th degree.
The big distinction between Iraq and Liberia is that the US has a strategic interest in the middle east but none in Liberia.
"Like those on the left that said it was all about oil "
It was enough about oil to convince people suspicious of big business that it was all about oil.
"I guess it's o.k to do all the heavy lifting when Kofi and co. say it is. "
They probably trust the UN more than they do Bush. See above. I think a lot of opposition for the war in Iraq was out of dislike for Bush. There's no reason to deny that.
It was enough about oil to convince people suspicious of big business that it was all about oil.
If all Iraq had was a quart of Pennzoil they would have been against it. Unless of course, Clinton had done it.
They probably trust the UN more than they do Bush.
Then they are more stupid than I thought.
I think a lot of opposition for the war in Iraq was out of dislike for Bush. There's no reason to deny that.
No one does, except most liberals.
I'm not denying it, and I appreciate your candor, it's refreshing to hear. I agree and I think it's idiotic. As much as I dislike different leaders etc. I don't base such grave decsions as war and security becuase I don't like the guy in the White House. That's my whole point and what bothers me so greatly is that someone would do that. If someone's opposed out of religious beliefs or just a strong conviction that it was the wrong thing to do that's fine. It's those exact ones you mention that I have a serious problem with that would oppose something so serious simply because of the one doing it. To me someting so important as war should transcend partisan politics, it's been that way for years and even though there are yes disagreements and always have been, what we are seeing now is totally different and more hardened. And no it doesn't mean nor am I saying you don't criticize the president, there are ways of doing so and it's in contrast to what we're seeign now. I appreciate your honesty and candor with the situation though.
And no it doesn't mean nor am I saying you don't criticize the president, there are ways of doing so and it's in contrast to what we're seeign now.
on the flip side of that its equally as wrong to call someone who does criticize the president a traitor. that said, well said, luv.
ares 7/18/03 12:27pm
I agree and thanks Ares. I totally expect people to disagree with the President, it's the way it works, but there's also a way to go about it. I've talked to some that are opposed to the war for different reasons and although I disagree I respect that and their decision. Those that do so out of simple hatred or disdain for one person or party or a political agenda I have none for.
Like this guy, from an editorial in the San Fran Chronicle.
So he's o.k with troops dying if it helps elect his guy and get Bush out of office. That is traitorous IMO not to mention revolting and sick.
Those that do so out of simple hatred or disdain for one person or party or a political agenda I have none for.
don't get me wrong though. i certainly don't like bush and really don't think he's competent enough to do the job.
That is traitorous IMO not to mention revolting and sick.
agreed. and don't forget to mention the cowardice shown in his nom-de-plume too as he says it :)
ares 7/18/03 1:05pm
I'm cool with that, again we would disagree with eachother I'm sure but that's fine and what it's all about. It's the idiots like the letter writer that make me sick.
I think maybe we all tend to generalize too much in here instead of adressing the poster and his/her posistion instead of lumping them into libera vs. conservative boxes. We all have people in our corner ie: Pat Robertson/ on the right or perhaps Al Sharpton on the left that we wish would go away.