PRESIDENT BUSH'S speech on Palestinian reforms included several astute observations. The president was right to note that the ''Palestinian Legislature has no authority and power is concentrated in the hands of an unaccountable few.'' Palestinian legislators, after all, are trapped under military curfew. Power over all aspects of Palestinians' lives is in the hands of the Israeli prime minister, who is unaccountable to international law, no less to the 3 million Palestinian civilians who suffer an unrelenting siege.
And the president was also right to remark, ''the Palestinian people lack effective courts of law and have no means to defend and vindicate their rights.'' The Israeli army, after all, has rounded up thousands of Palestinians without charge or trial. They endure inhuman conditions and languish in Israeli prisons indefinitely.
But the president was misinformed when he told the Palestinians to draft a democratic constitution. The Palestinians already have such a constitution. I know, because I translated it.
Yasser Arafat established a Constitution Committee in 1999, long before either George Bush or Ariel Sharon came to power and assumed the right to tell Palestinians how to run their affairs. After months of research and debate, the Committee completed a draft in September 2000. Two friends and I, all three of us students of Arabic sharing an apartment in Cairo, were asked to translate the draft. We eagerly agreed.
For days on end, we hovered around my laptop, meticulously considering every word we translated. As modern twentysomething women, we were determined to make the Palestinian constitution even more democratic than the American one by rendering the English text gender-neutral. Not unlike male politicians and academics everywhere, however, the members of the Palestinian Constitution Committee eventually reinserted the he's that we had taken such pains to circumvent.
So I've reviewed every ''for,'' ''if,'' and ''but'' of the Palestinian Constitution, and I can say that it's not too bad. It provides for regular elections, separation of powers, and civil rights. It addresses the rights of Palestinian refugees, and it pledges religious tolerance. Granted, the constitution is far from perfect. Palestinian human rights activists have called attention to loopholes that grant the executive branch the wide discretion that it enjoys throughout the developing world. More than grounds for invalidating the current draft, however, this debate illustrates that democratic dialogue is alive and well in Palestinian civil society.
My friends and I became completely absorbed in the constitution of the Palestinian state-to-be in order to meet our Sept. 30, 2000, deadline.
It was only after we had submitted our translation, therefore, that we switched on the news and discovered that Palestine was in flames. Two days before, Ariel Sharon had visited the Al-Aqsa mosque. Clashes had ensued between Palestinian protesters and Israeli police the next day. According to the Palestinian Red Crescent, some 60 Palestinians were killed and 2,500 injured during the week following Sharon's visit. Within a month, another 125 Palestinians would be killed. The 126th to die was this intifada's first suicide bomber. The rest is history.
The three of us spent weeks in our Cairo apartment consumed by the news from Palestine. Listening to the reports about the bombing of neighborhoods, demolition of homes, and countless funerals, we would exclaim, ''How can this happen? The Palestinians have a constitution!'' We knew then what our president still does not understand. A Palestinian constitution means little as long as the Israeli occupation continues.
Palestinian reforms will not end the conflict, because Palestinian politics is not the source of the conflict. The violence will not end until Israel takes its soldiers and settlers and leaves the West Bank and Gaza, once and for all.
President Bush's call for democracy in Palestine, therefore, is not wrong as much as it is beside the point. It does not matter how the Palestinians choose their leaders when Israel retains the power to besiege, arrest, or assassinate them. It does not matter what free- market institutions the Palestinians develop as long as Israel can impose a closures that brings commerce, not to mention all daily life, to a screeching halt.
Israel is wreaking havoc in Palestinian towns and refugee camps with impunity, and the White House's solution is to audit the PNA? Perhaps the president got the Enron and Middle East files mixed up. His speech reads more like a prescription for reforming American finance than a vision for a just resolution to the Palestinians' 50-year struggle for statehood.
The Palestinians already have a constitution; they don't need another one. What they need is to be treated like a people.
--Boston Globe
Wendy Pearlman is earning a PhD in government at Harvard University.
"The Palestinians already have a constitution; they don't need another one."
Then they can prove they give a damn about the rule of law. How many country's don't have a consititution.. Following it is what matters.
"As modern twentysomething women, we were determined to make the Palestinian constitution even more democratic than the American one by rendering the English text gender-neutral."
When a society is in tatters, I have a hard time believing that a gender-neutral document is going to matter, except to these "modern twentysomething women." If Ms. Perlman is any example, they were woefully naive.
Maybe a French translation would be helpful. It's a more precise language.
"What they need is to be treated like a people."
After they stop the slaughter of innocents. Is that how A People act? You provided the answer awhile back. If they see a chance it might work, why stop?
There will be peace when the Palistinians love their children more than they hate the Israelis.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that everyone missed the key passage in Pearlman's piece:
"Palestinian reforms will not end the conflict, because Palestinian politics is not the source of the conflict. The violence will not end until Israel takes its soldiers and settlers and leaves the West Bank and Gaza, once and for all."
I'm not surprised you haven't answered the question I posed before you posted the Pearlman story:
Answer this Dennis:
If the sucide bombings stopped, would the IDF stand down?
With assurances they wouldn't continue, I think they would.
If the IDF stood down first, would the suicide bombings stop?
Not a chance.
If Isreal leaves now, they will be seen as having rewarded the terrorists. Blowing up innocent civilians will have been a successful strategy. So Hamas knows what it needs to do to get what it it wants. And its demands WILL BE ENDLESS.
For the Palestinians to disavow the "Freedom by any means necessary!" axiom that Malcolm rightly articulated for all oppressed peoples of the world...would amount to rewarding Israeli state terrorism, which has existed far longer (decades longer) than the rather recent, last-ditch, desperation tactic of Palestinian suicide bombings.
Moreover, that Israeli terrorism has been infintely more extensive and destructive.
If, at any point during the past more than 35 years, Israel had EVER given ANY serious indication that it would honor the Palestinian people's legitimate aspirations -- and had provided them the democratic space to peacefully achieve a genuine homeland -- then I would say that Tel Aviv and Washington would have SOME credible basis for criticizing what the Palestinians are doing today.
But Israel never did, and we consequently DON'T.
The situation is entirely hardline Zionism's fault, exacerbated by our long years of giving Israel everything it's wanted in terms of diplomatic, monetary and military backing.
We carried you in our arms On Independence Day, And now you'd throw us all aside And put us on our way. Oh what dear daughter 'neath the sun Would treat a father so, To wait upon him hand and foot And always tell him, "No"? Tears of rage, tears of grief, Why must I always be the thief?
Let's help the Isrealis by moving them to their new home in Bahgdad. That way we won't have to spend our hard earned money on Dumbshit Bush's dog wagging.
This administration is sure going to great measures to cover up what they did in New York last September.
Wow, Eloquant Duane, The master of wit strikes again. What a zinger!
This proves nothing. Show me a study or some sort of evidence that will support your mindless parroting statement in which I was responding to rather than dragging your hurt feelings into the discussion.
And just in case you have conveniently forgotten what the discussion was about, let me refresh your memory;
You blindly stated:
Well they are willing to talk if Ararat's thugs could take a day or two off from murdering people as a hobby. And they won't even do that. Israel has shown far more restraint than the Palestinian ever would if the situation was reversed.
and I replied:
Bullshit. Prove it.
(the latter portion which you mysteriously neglected to address, or even acknowledge, tells me you are either reluctant or unable to support your, or whomever's, theory)
I'm writing to comment on the situation in Israel-Palestine.
I was part of a group, the International Jewish Peace Union, almost 20 years ago (and the most "right" in the group) that protested the policies of then-Israeli Defense Minister Ariel Sharon. This was the early 1980s.
A photo taken Sept. 11, 2001, of Palestinians cheering, was taken at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camp in southern Lebanon. This is the same place that Sharon led a massacre of 17,000 people, most of whom were Palestinian.
Some people in the International Jewish Peace Union and others had connections with people and lawyers in Israel at the time. They reported torture, closing down Palestinian schools, terrorizing the people there, keeping people in prison for almost nothing, and the confiscating of Palestinian land -- bulldozing the orchards, the olive trees. All of this was routine at that time.
I'm not totally sure that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat is totally "clean." However, there's a whole lot else going on, and has been that's not in the interests of peace that is not Yasser Arafat within Palestine-Israel.
The incursions into the West Bank, the siege of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, murdering and terrorizing Palestinians, attempting to assassinate Arafat and then blaming him for everything wrong there, can't be condoned by anyone.
We have to remember, too, that hate for "the Jews" is still commonplace in the Christian preaching of "the Jews killed our God."
Hopefully, after the fire this time, and I'm sure it will be a conflagration, humankind will consider the moral question: If there's a possibility to transfer priorities from the accumulation of wealth and cult of power-over-others to the transformation of our character. And how we treat and revere one another, and what God has given us.
Wow, Eloquant Duane, The master of wit strikes again. What a zinger!
This proves nothing. Show me a study or some sort of evidence that will support your mindless parroting statement in which I was responding to rather than dragging your hurt feelings into the discussion.
And just in case you have conveniently forgotten what the discussion was about, let me refresh your memory;
You blindly stated:
Well they are willing to talk if Ararat's thugs could take a day or two off from murdering people as a hobby. And they won't even do that. Israel has shown far more restraint than the Palestinian ever would if the situation was reversed. and I replied: Â Â
Bullshit. Prove it. (the latter portion which you mysteriously neglected to address, or even acknowledge, tells me you are either reluctant or unable to support your, or whomever's, theory) Â Â
I don't debate with people who are incapable of having rational discussion and reply with witty things like "bullshit, prove it". All you would have had to do was disagree or tell me why you thought I was wrong, but that would have required actual thought on your part so you stuck with bullshit. And just for your information. When I replied to your original message all it said was "bullshit". We were on the board atthe same time, You then went back and after so much deep thought edited it to "bullshit prove it". So after the first message that I read I really didn't feel inclined to worry about appeasing your curiosity. Have a nice day Duane.
"A photo taken Sept. 11, 2001, of Palestinians cheering, was taken at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camp in southern Lebanon. This is the same place that Sharon led a massacre of 17,000 people, most of whom were Palestinian."
That woman has things mixed up. The 1982 operation in Sabra and Shatila was conducted by Phalangists, who I think were actually Lebanese. It was pretty brutal, but not that brutal. Calling it a massacre is loading the language.
Even a sight that wants to indict Sharonplaces the death figure at much less. There was a lot of of killing in Beirut, but 17,000 people did not die in Shitala and Sabra. I think this is when the United States stepped in again.
This debate is really getting sad. People are so tied up in their own damn agendas and intent on advancing their own points of view that the truth doesn't even matter anymore.
The Duluth paper should have checked that out before they printed it.
Rick, my guess is that the "17,000" figure was simply a typo, probably actually meant to be 1,700, which would place it in the realm of what's generally considered the accepted toll.
Or it may have been a mistaken reference to the total number of dead in the overall Israeli offensive at that time, estimated to have been slightly under 20,000.
Here's an eyewitness account of what happened from a Jewish-American nurse.
The Israeli army has launched a massive military operation against Nablus City, including its four refugee camps. For the fourth time in three months Israeli troops have re-invaded the city and suburbs under the pretext of fighting terrorism. However, according to the Israelis, this time the invasion will be for a longer period of time. The 150,000 residents of Nablus are forced to remain inside their homes, as a strict 24-hour military curfew has been imposed over the city.
Already Israeli tanks and armoured vehicles have vandalized the streets of the city, causing enormous physical damage to the infrastructure. Additionally, they have taken permanent positions on top of high buildings, forcing the residents to remain in one apartment of the building.
Mass arrests are taking place in most of the neighbourhoods of the city – thus far dozens of Palestinians have been seized and sent to detention centers. The whole social, educational and medical systems have come to a standstill; the end-of-year high school exam (tawjeehi) has been cancelled due to the fact that students are unable to leave their homes to attend school.
Medical teams are prevented from moving freely, ambulances are frequently stopped and medical personnel are harassed. One doctor and the driver from medical relief were detained for two hours while attempting to transport an ill two- year-old baby.
Yet again, the Israeli army is creating a situation of fear and terror among the civilian population, as well as endangering their lives. There is no justification for the attacks on civilians and collective punishment Palestinians are subjected to.
This latest Israeli aggression against Palestinians is another facet of the continuing aggression of the Israeli occupation. The international community should realize that the main cause of the current dangerous situation in the region is this occupation, and security and regional stability will not be assured until this occupation is ended.
We appeal to the international community to intervene immediately and force the Israeli government to comply with international law and to withdraw its forces immediately from the Palestinian areas.
--Union of Palestinian Medical Relief Committees, Nablus City, West Bank
Israel has repeatedly warned that it would retake and hang on to Palestinian territory if there were further attacks.
The events at Nablus is being done in response to a new wave of Palestinian attacks this week that also included two suicide bombings in Jerusalem which killed 26 people.
They have already shelled a house in the West Bank city of Nablus on Sunday, killing a suspected Hamas bombmaker whose work is blamed for the deaths of at least 100 Israelis in suicide bombings. Palestinians even described Tahir as one of the leading bombmakers in the Hamas military wing.
The toll from Thursday's assault on the settlement of Itamar was five, including Rachel Shabo and three of her six children, aged between five and 15. The terrorist climbed a fence, entered one of the houses and opened fire at its residents. Soldiers stormed the house and killed the gunman. Two other children in the house, which burned down after a bullet ignited a gas canister, were wounded by the gunman.
The people you are supporting are deliberately killing women and children.
How many Palestinian Intifadas would it take to equal one American Vietnam, in terms of innocent women and children killed in brutally indiscriminate bombing?
100?
200?
More?
(I'm not even gonna talk about Hiroshima or Nagasaki, until Aug. 6 and 9.)
I've encountered a wide diversity of veterans over the years.
Rightwing jingoists who are always glorifying and promoting the military, while heaping contempt on "peaceniks".
Survivors of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, proudly aware that their service as volunteers against Franco in Spain was the most magnificent losing cause of the 20th century.
Old boys from WWII and Korea who'd show up at our peace rallies to take the mike, or bullhorn, to make passionate statements in our behalf.
Members of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, who threw their medals over the White House fence in the spring of '71.
My own father, who was an American Legion post commander, but who'd make sure that Memorial Day parades and graveside ceremonies wern't used to glamourize soldiering, to avoid conveying a propagandistic, false allure to impressionable youth.
A town drunk...who escaped a POW camp in Italy and walked to freedom in France, traveling only at night.
Many strange and bothered souls who went to Southeast Asia straight out of high school, and came back in varying states of dysfunction.
And -- perhaps most movingly -- veterans from other nations, including those who fought against our side in bloody years lost to history.
And what summation can I make?
Soldiers, warriors, ARE tools.
Regardless of their national origin, they're young people fresh out of school, where their respective countries have been portrayed as being uniquely associated with Godly righteousness, as other lands have been roundly demonized.
Once in the military, they're totally regimented and brainwashed.
They go into battle all gung-ho, as expendable pawns of political and economic interests that are rarely as pure and noble as the young soldiers have been indoctrinated to rigidly think.
Sometimes, as their ranks lay dying on foreign soil thousands of miles away from friendly familiarity, they begin to question what they've been told. Some change, others don't.
But many perish, in an orchestrated mass murder that has to be seen as humanity's greatest failing and folly -- something we need to evolve beyond.
For what they've endured, under lies more often that truth, I'll always "honor" veterans -- but primarily in helping assure that they'll receive the societal care and benefits their sacrifice always ought to unstintingly entitle them to.
My wife and I went for a drive yesterday, stopping at a tavern in the country to eat.
There was a sign above the bar:
"We live in a country where medal-winning veterans are homeless in cardboard boxes, and a draft dodger lives in the White House."
PBS had a two hour program last night called "Endgame in Ireland" about the process that secured a peace agreement in Northern Ireland. Interviewed all the players.
What I think has been kind of overlooked was the role that Sept. 11 played in the whole peace process there. Within a month or so after the attacks on New York, the IRA made a breakthrough announcement on the intractable issue of decommissioning their weapons. Much of their arsonal was put out of use before the end of the year.
The show didn't mention why that occurred within that timeframe only that it did occur. And I don't recall hearing of any violence in Northern Ireland since. That conflict went on for 30 years, and the bad blood could have gone on for centuries.
I went away from the documentary thinking that if they could do it, there should be hope for Israel and Palestine.
Regardless of their national origin, they're young people fresh out of school, where their respective countries have been portrayed as being uniquely associated with Godly righteousness, as other lands have been roundly demonized.
Yes like terrorists are taught to hate you and I.
Once in the military, they're totally regimented and brainwashed.
You mean like the brainwashing you've recived from your Marxist re-education camp ?
They go into battle all gung-ho, as expendable pawns of political and economic interests that are rarely as pure and noble as the young soldiers have been indoctrinated to rigidly think.
We don't go into battle gung ho. I am sure there were a few of them, much of that is nervousness being hidden. We are trained to do a job that is one of the toughest in the world. Do firefighters and cops sit around and hope for a fire or a gang war ? No of course not it's the same with soilders. They train for a job they hope that they are never called to do. But after reading your insults I wouldn't and don't expect you to ever know or comprehend the difference.
I don't think Quite the Hepcat(a.k.a. Dennis) meant anything personal or was trying to insult anyone, but he ought to take stock in some of his alliances before he starts talking about other people being naive and overly impressionable.
The ragtag band of anarchists and anti-globalists that trashed downtown Seattle a few years ago and tag along behind meetings of the G8 leaders aren't exactly a group of critical thinkers. Some of the more violent ones are fresh from the soccer matches. The more earnest well-meaning ones appear to be capable of being seduced by simplistic, but passionate rhetoric.
They're young people fresh out of school, where their respective countries have been portrayed as being uniquely associated with Godly righteousness, as other lands have been roundly demonized.
The young anti-globalist from Western Europe, blaming the US for...globalization and stuff...fits the profile, I'd say.
I'll take a ragtag band of rowdies over a bunch of coward Democrats any day of the week. They may not be critical thinkers, but at least they still have their balls attached. Speaking of castrated--What's Al Gore doing these days? Coming up with new ways to mortgage his party for fun and profit no doubt.
(August 1, 3:15 p.m. CDT) - If there was ever any doubt about the intentions of the murderous machine known as Hamas, a comment by one of its leaders following Wednesday's cafeteria bombing at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, in which at least seven people were killed and dozens injured, should dispel any lingering illusions.
Crowing about the innocent dead and wounded, the Hamas spokesman said Jews should leave Israel and "return to where they came from."
How long would the United States support a "peace process" if, say, white supremacists in America were bombing black churches and promising the killings wouldn't stop until African-Americans went back where they "came from"? For generations, African-Americans have come from America. For thousands of years, Israeli Jews have come from Israel. Murder comes from Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. Their killing machines operate from territory ceded to them by Israel in the false hope of getting peace for land.
Hamas, along with the Palestinian Authority and Yasser Arafat, are part of a polluted mainstream of contemporary Arab thought. There are no living "moderates" among the Palestinians - at least none willing to step forward. They fear assassination if they dare challenge the killers.
Some Hamas members said the Hebrew University operation was in retaliation for Israel's targeting of their leader, Salah Shehadeh, who was killed July 23 in an Israeli anti-terror operation in Gaza. That several civilians were killed in the Gaza bombing, including members of Shehadeh's family, was the result of a deliberate strategy: The terrorists place themselves among civilians so that when Israel strikes, civilians will be incidentally killed and the focus will shift from the dead terrorists to Israel's actions. Compare this with the deliberate targeting of Israeli babies, students and civilian adults by Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups. For them, there is no "collateral damage." (They don't even exclude fellow Arabs, some of whom were injured in the Hebrew University attack.) The spoken and written goal is to eliminate Israel and place any remaining Jews in the region under the authority of an Islamic empire.
Western European and American policy toward the region has been based on many false assumptions, including the assumption that the Palestinians have been deprived of "their land" and giving it back will make them more hospitable toward Israel. Another assumption is that the deplorable conditions in which many Palestinians live fuels their anger. American liberals preached a similar doctrine in the '60s and '70s, trying to establish a link between poverty and criminal activity in this country, especially among minorities.
A new report by the National Bureau of Economic Research in Cambridge, Mass., suggests otherwise. The report, "Education, Poverty, Political Violence and Terrorism: Is There A Causal Connection?" looked at the jobs, educational level and family circumstances of 129 Hezbollah militants, based in Lebanon, who were killed in operations against Israel over the past 20 years. The study found that compared with the Lebanese population as a whole, Hezbollah members were less likely to come from poor families and more likely to have finished secondary school. A similar link between terrorism and educational attainment was found for Palestinian suicide bombers.
It may surprise some, but the study found no link between violent acts and poverty. Violence in the Middle East, the study says, seems to have increased when local economic conditions were improving, not getting worse.
What this ought to tell Western policymakers is that the murderous tactics being used against Israel are part of a political, educational and religious system that won't be swayed by Western notions of a "balanced approach" or appealing to an end to the "cycle of violence," as if moral symmetry exists between the two sides in the conflict. It doesn't, because the goals are different. Israel is prepared to co-exist with its neighbors. The Palestinians and most Arab states want to exist without Israel. On their maps, Israel does not exist. In their minds, they plot to eliminate it. In their hearts, they commit and condone murder to achieve this objective.
Why is this so difficult for the U.S. State Department and Western European leaders to understand?
No one would deny that is sad and unimaginaible and horrid. What is also sad and unimaginable is that the Palestinains target civilians intentionally with no military objectives. I don't think we want to statr comparing the two. The difference is that most of the Isralies killed were killed as intentional civilian deaths. Some mother and her child were killed because they were somehow oppressing the Palestinians eating a slice of Sbarro. Or they were opressing their people by taking the wrong bus that day.
Hell Sraven they don't even care if THEIR OWN PEOPLE are hurt or killed in the attack, the look at them as being unfortunate to be there, they know there own people will be there and they still murder away. And I'm supposed to give them any creedence ? I know, I'm sure you'll point to an episode as stated above etc and that's why this place has been at war for such a long time, it;s well you did this and well yea you did that and etc etc. And they keep killing eachother.
As I said I was a firm supporter of the idea that the Palestinians should have their own state with borders etc. As recently as two months ago I was still saying that. But I have also seen the non stop murder of civilinas as intentional targets. I have seen the writings from their schools that basically teach that Jews are lower than animals. They are taught to hate from day one. Most of the population supports the P.A and the P.A supports and or turns a blind eye to Hammas. I no longer feel that the Palestinains deserve a state. Terrorism and murder should NEVER be rewarded, EVER. Everytime they intentionally murder civilinas and use them as targets they lose support from people in the U.S. They don't get that, they are losing people supportive of their cause daily. I was never 100% in my support of Israel and still am not. However, my choice is clear and becoming more clear for others.
It seems like the only "acceptable alternative" for Hamas is for the population of the State of Israel is to walk into the Mediterranean Sea and drown.
Short of that, the suicide bombing won't end.
Golda Meir said there will be peace when the Palistinians love their children more than they hate Israel.
Sooner or later we must all come to the conclusion that the suspension of peace negotiations and insalling an accountable Palestinian govt because of terrorism is in fact rewarding terrorism! Â Â
I would agree with that in a way and admit I am conflicted on it.
The only way to kill terrorist ideoligy is to make it irrelevent...If people were eating there would be no reason to fight...or be brainwashed for that matter.
Many of the terrorists or should I say leaders are educated people I mean that they are educated in western schools. The idea of people being poor doesn't hold water because first of all that's a myth, many of them come from middle or upper middle class families. Second, there are poor people all over the world who do not resort to killing civilians or their OWN PEOPLE. Third, Arafat takes alot of money from the Palestinians.
The only way to kill terror, is to deligitimize it by helping to provide a positive alternative...
I think that's what we are trying to do by discussing a legitamate Palestinian state but also by getting rid of Arafat. He's part of the problem and not thge solution. Of course the minute we do that we are accused of intervetnion and being imperialistic. We can't win I guess.
The other problem is that many Palestinains don't even want the Jewish people to defile the ground they walk on. How do you deal with ignorance and hate like that ? They don't understand that with every school or disco blown up that they lose support from rational people. When they quit killing civilians and there own people intentionally I'll listen to their plight.
Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat called the Israeli operation "a new massacre."
"I need an answer from the whole United Nations: is this acceptable?" he said.
I don't know Ararat, What do you call intentionally killing civilians ? You are a master at massacres, you perfected them.
Oh and here's some interesting news.........
Arafat's remarks came a day after the U.N. issued a lengthy report saying there was no evidence to support Palestinian claims of an Israeli massacre in Jenin during fighting in April. The report criticized Palestinians for stockpiling weapons in the town, and chastised Israel for delaying medical and humanitarian aid.
Amnesty International also issued a similar report but we won't hear much of this story. It doens't sell papers.
In response to the Nablus incursion, Arafat said: "I am asking for quick international intervention from the United Nations. If they are not able to send forces, then send observers."
How about some obervers or troops to prevent you from killing people at will. In fact, how about trying not to kill your own people as well. _____________________________________________
One of the cartoon charachters i was surprised to see on the top 50 list was............
Arafat's remarks came a day after the U.N. issued a lengthy report saying there was no evidence to support Palestinian claims of an Israeli massacre in Jenin during fighting in April.
.....we won't hear much of this story. It doens't sell papers.
Yes it's amazing how that story was at the top of the headlines in papers and led the news on most major media outlets.
Did you notice that they also criticized the Palestinains for stockpiling weapons in the town. Hmmmm Yes Jenin refugee camp takes on a whole different image doesn't it ?
One other thing that is not noticed in the news. The attack killing of one of the top Hammas terror leaders and the news outlets rush to help the terrorists overlooked the fact that the leader was in violation of the geneva convention. When you hide among civilians expect ot have civilians killed. Hell they don't worry about killing their own people so I guess why would they worry about the Geneva convention. They've made their bed. I noticed yesterday's Pioneer Press editorial criticizing Bush for not reigning in Sharon more. What ? How about Arafat regining Hamas in ? These people are idiots.
Yeah, talk about one sided. What's funny is they're serious when they say it.
I know and I don't get it. How anyone could defend or rationalize it is beyond me. I think it's their rush to find them somehow the underdog. I can say this, If we were dealing with the same type of an internal struggle here I wonder how patient they'd be ? These people are hate filled thugs who intentionally murder civilians as a way to further a cause. To me it shows how out of touch the editorial boards have become out of touch with reality. Do the Isralies have any blame, sure. But they seem to overlook that the Palestinains are trying intnetionally to kill civilians (and their own people if they get in the way) and the Isralies are doing what they need to do to protect their citizens. Again I wonder how patient we'd be if they were blowing up bombs in the Mall of America or killing people at a Twins game simply because they were a certain nationality and they claimed to have a grievance do you think the coverage might be different and the editorials a different slant to them ? But hey as long as we're being sensative to the plight of the Palestinans who march and cheer in mass at the announcement of any Isralie deaths.
It's the absolute right of oppressed people to win freedom by ANY MEANS NECESSARY.
The operative word here, of course, is "necessary".
If those means are shocking to the oppressor -- or if they objectively violate norms of common decency -- then the onus is on the oppressor himself for having consistently and rigidly denied the downtrodden...democratic, within-accepted-channel methods/opportunities for redress of their legitimate, painful, INTOLERABLE grievances.
It goes without saying that there would be no pathetic, desperate Palestinian freedom fighters blowing themselves up on crowded Israeli buses or in discos IF there had never been a prior, Zionist INTRANSIGENCE regarding ANY prospect for Palestinians to achieve a homeland on THEIR terms.
Not on Ariel Sharon's terms.
Or on George Bush's.
Or on the bullshit, bigoted idiocy of U.S. rightwingers.
But on those of the broad mass of ordinary Palestinian people, who know their own, collective reality in all of its decades-long victimization at the hands of an occupying, rights-denying, bulldozing, settlement building, supremacist and exclusionary religo-political colonialism and state terrorism that has NEVER tolerated the notion of Palestinian say-so in realizing Palestinian destiny.
Want to correctly, accurately affix blame for suicide bombings, a phenomenon that will only escalate, in many places, as one-sided, repressive power continues to rest with the strong-arm, plundering Israels and Americas of this world?
Look in the mirror, oh socially irresponsible, greedy, and abysmally prejudiced ones!
For it is the selfish killers of others' valid dreams and aspirations who make vengeful, actual killers out of those chronically and relentlessly so tormented, and deprived.
Remember this pivotal axiom, proven correct throughout history:
Those who make peaceful reform impossible make violent revolution inevitable.
Unless an enlightened regime comes to power in Israel and makes genuine concessions to the Palestinians' legitimate sovereignty needs -- and does so with authentic contrition for past abuses (manifested in such demonstrably meaningful changes as dismantling the interloper settlements) -- there'll be less chance of peace ever emerging in the Middle East than there'd be for a Hells Angels consensus emerging to give up their Harleys...and start riding 90cc Suzuki glorified mopeds instead.
My son was killed by a Palestinian fighter. But Israel's occupation is to blame for his death
Yitzhak Frankenthal, Wednesday August 7, 2002, The Guardian
My beloved son Arik, my own flesh and blood, was murdered by Palestinians. My tall, blue-eyed, golden-haired son who was always smiling with the innocence of a child and the understanding of an adult. My son. If to hit his killers, innocent Palestinian children and other civilians would have to be killed, I would ask the security forces to wait for another opportunity.
My beloved son Arik was murdered by a Palestinian. Should the security forces have information of this murderer's whereabouts, and should it turn out that he was surrounded by innocent children and other Palestinian civilians, then - even if the security forces knew that the killer was planning another murderous attack and they now had the choice of curbing a terror attack that would kill innocent Israeli civilians, but at the cost of hitting innocent Palestinians, I would tell the security forces not to seek revenge.
I would rather have the finger that pushes the trigger or the button that drops the bomb tremble before it kills my son's murderer, than for innocent civilians to be killed. I would say to the security forces: do not kill the killer. Rather, bring him before an Israeli court. You are not the judiciary. Your only motivation should not be vengeance, but the prevention of any injury to innocent civilians.
Ethics are not black and white - they are all white. Ethics have to be free of vengefulness and rashness. Every act must be carefully weighed before a decision is made to see whether it meets strict ethical criteria. Our ethics are hanging by a thread, at the mercy of every soldier and politician.
It is unethical to kill innocent Israeli or Palestinian women and children. It is also unethical to control another nation and to lead it to lose its humaneness. It is patently unethical to drop a bomb that kills innocent Palestinians. It is blatantly unethical to wreak vengeance upon innocent bystanders.
It is, on the other hand, supremely ethical to prevent the death of any human being. But if such prevention causes the futile death of others, the ethical foundation for such prevention is lost. A nation that cannot draw the line is doomed eventually to apply unethical measures against its own people. The worst in my mind is not what has already happened but what I am sure one day will. And it will - because the political and military leadership does not even have the most basic integrity to say: "we are sorry". We lost sight of our ethics long before the suicide bombings. The breaking point was when we started to control another nation.
My son Arik was born into a democracy with a chance for a decent, settled life. Arik's killer was born into an appalling occupation, into an ethical chaos. Had my son been born in his stead, he may have ended up doing the same. Had I myself been born into the political and ethical chaos that is the Palestinians' daily reality, I would certainly have tried to kill and hurt the occupier; had I not, I would have betrayed my essence as a free man. Let all the self-righteous who speak of ruthless Palestinian murderers take a hard look in the mirror and ask themselves what they would have done had they been the ones living under occupation. I can say for myself that I, Yitzhak Frankenthal, would have undoubtedly become a freedom fighter and would have killed as many on the other side as I possibly could. It is this depraved hypocrisy that pushes the Palestinians to fight us relentlessly - our double standard that allows us to boast the highest military ethics, while the same military slays innocent children. This lack of ethics is bound to corrupt us.
My son Arik was murdered when he was a soldier by Palestinian fighters who believed in the ethical basis of their struggle against the occupation. My son Arik was not murdered because he was Jewish but because he is part of the nation that occupies the territory of another. I know these are concepts that are unpalatable, but I must voice them loud and clear, because they come from my heart - the heart of a father whose son did not get to live because his people were blinded with power.
As much as I would like to do so, I cannot say that the Palestinians are to blame for my son's death. That would be the easy way out, but it is we, Israelis, who are to blame because of the occupation. Anyone who refuses to heed this awful truth will eventually lead to our destruction.
The Palestinians cannot drive us away - they have long acknowledged our existence. They have been ready to make peace with us; it is we who are unwilling to make peace with them. It is we who insist on maintaining our control over them; it is we who escalate the situation in the region and feed the cycle of bloodshed. I regret to say it, but the blame is entirely ours.
I do not mean to absolve the Palestinians and by no means justify attacks against Israeli civilians. No attack against civilians can be condoned. But as an occupation force it is we who trample over human dignity, it is we who crush the liberty of Palestinians and it is we who push an entire nation to crazy acts of despair.
--Yitzhak Frankenthal is the chairman of the Families Forum. This is an edited version of a speech he made at a rally in Jerusalem on Saturday July 27 2002.
Read the following, Rick, from someone who helped translate the Palestinian constitution...
What Bush Doesn't Know About Palestine
By Wendy Pearlman
PRESIDENT BUSH'S speech on Palestinian reforms included several astute observations. The president was right to note that the ''Palestinian Legislature has no authority and power is concentrated in the hands of an unaccountable few.'' Palestinian legislators, after all, are trapped under military curfew. Power over all aspects of Palestinians' lives is in the hands of the Israeli prime minister, who is unaccountable to international law, no less to the 3 million Palestinian civilians who suffer an unrelenting siege.
And the president was also right to remark, ''the Palestinian people lack effective courts of law and have no means to defend and vindicate their rights.'' The Israeli army, after all, has rounded up thousands of Palestinians without charge or trial. They endure inhuman conditions and languish in Israeli prisons indefinitely.
But the president was misinformed when he told the Palestinians to draft a democratic constitution. The Palestinians already have such a constitution. I know, because I translated it.
Yasser Arafat established a Constitution Committee in 1999, long before either George Bush or Ariel Sharon came to power and assumed the right to tell Palestinians how to run their affairs. After months of research and debate, the Committee completed a draft in September 2000. Two friends and I, all three of us students of Arabic sharing an apartment in Cairo, were asked to translate the draft. We eagerly agreed.
For days on end, we hovered around my laptop, meticulously considering every word we translated. As modern twentysomething women, we were determined to make the Palestinian constitution even more democratic than the American one by rendering the English text gender-neutral. Not unlike male politicians and academics everywhere, however, the members of the Palestinian Constitution Committee eventually reinserted the he's that we had taken such pains to circumvent.
So I've reviewed every ''for,'' ''if,'' and ''but'' of the Palestinian Constitution, and I can say that it's not too bad. It provides for regular elections, separation of powers, and civil rights. It addresses the rights of Palestinian refugees, and it pledges religious tolerance. Granted, the constitution is far from perfect. Palestinian human rights activists have called attention to loopholes that grant the executive branch the wide discretion that it enjoys throughout the developing world. More than grounds for invalidating the current draft, however, this debate illustrates that democratic dialogue is alive and well in Palestinian civil society.
My friends and I became completely absorbed in the constitution of the Palestinian state-to-be in order to meet our Sept. 30, 2000, deadline.
It was only after we had submitted our translation, therefore, that we switched on the news and discovered that Palestine was in flames. Two days before, Ariel Sharon had visited the Al-Aqsa mosque. Clashes had ensued between Palestinian protesters and Israeli police the next day. According to the Palestinian Red Crescent, some 60 Palestinians were killed and 2,500 injured during the week following Sharon's visit. Within a month, another 125 Palestinians would be killed. The 126th to die was this intifada's first suicide bomber. The rest is history.
The three of us spent weeks in our Cairo apartment consumed by the news from Palestine. Listening to the reports about the bombing of neighborhoods, demolition of homes, and countless funerals, we would exclaim, ''How can this happen? The Palestinians have a constitution!'' We knew then what our president still does not understand. A Palestinian constitution means little as long as the Israeli occupation continues.
Palestinian reforms will not end the conflict, because Palestinian politics is not the source of the conflict. The violence will not end until Israel takes its soldiers and settlers and leaves the West Bank and Gaza, once and for all.
President Bush's call for democracy in Palestine, therefore, is not wrong as much as it is beside the point. It does not matter how the Palestinians choose their leaders when Israel retains the power to besiege, arrest, or assassinate them. It does not matter what free- market institutions the Palestinians develop as long as Israel can impose a closures that brings commerce, not to mention all daily life, to a screeching halt.
Israel is wreaking havoc in Palestinian towns and refugee camps with impunity, and the White House's solution is to audit the PNA? Perhaps the president got the Enron and Middle East files mixed up. His speech reads more like a prescription for reforming American finance than a vision for a just resolution to the Palestinians' 50-year struggle for statehood.
The Palestinians already have a constitution; they don't need another one. What they need is to be treated like a people.
--Boston Globe
Wendy Pearlman is earning a PhD in government at Harvard University.
"The Palestinians already have a constitution; they don't need another one."
Then they can prove they give a damn about the rule of law. How many country's don't have a consititution.. Following it is what matters.
"As modern twentysomething women, we were determined to make the Palestinian constitution even more democratic than the American one by rendering the English text gender-neutral."
When a society is in tatters, I have a hard time believing that a gender-neutral document is going to matter, except to these "modern twentysomething women." If Ms. Perlman is any example, they were woefully naive.
Maybe a French translation would be helpful. It's a more precise language.
"What they need is to be treated like a people."
After they stop the slaughter of innocents. Is that how A People act? You provided the answer awhile back. If they see a chance it might work, why stop?
There will be peace when the Palistinians love their children more than they hate the Israelis.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that everyone missed the key passage in Pearlman's piece:
"Palestinian reforms will not end the conflict, because Palestinian politics is not the source of the conflict. The violence will not end until Israel takes its soldiers and settlers and leaves the West Bank and Gaza, once and for all."
I'm not surprised you haven't answered the question I posed before you posted the Pearlman story:
Answer this Dennis:
If the sucide bombings stopped, would the IDF stand down?
With assurances they wouldn't continue, I think they would.
If the IDF stood down first, would the suicide bombings stop?
Not a chance.
If Isreal leaves now, they will be seen as having rewarded the terrorists. Blowing up innocent civilians will have been a successful strategy. So Hamas knows what it needs to do to get what it it wants. And its demands WILL BE ENDLESS.
And Isreali concessions a sign of weakness.
I have to agree with Rick on this one. The ball is in the Palestinian court so to speak.
For the Palestinians to disavow the "Freedom by any means necessary!"
axiom that Malcolm rightly articulated for all oppressed peoples of the world...would amount to rewarding Israeli state terrorism, which has existed far longer (decades longer) than the rather recent, last-ditch, desperation tactic of Palestinian suicide bombings.
Moreover, that Israeli terrorism has been infintely more extensive and
destructive.
If, at any point during the past more than 35 years, Israel had EVER
given ANY serious indication that it would honor the Palestinian people's legitimate aspirations -- and had provided them the democratic space to peacefully achieve a genuine homeland -- then I would say that Tel Aviv and Washington would have SOME credible basis for criticizing what the Palestinians are doing today.
But Israel never did, and we consequently DON'T.
The situation is entirely hardline Zionism's fault, exacerbated by
our long years of giving Israel everything it's wanted in terms of
diplomatic, monetary and military backing.
Our one-sidedness has created a fiasco.
Which Bush continues to compound.
We carried you in our arms
On Independence Day,
And now you'd throw us all aside
And put us on our way.
Oh what dear daughter 'neath the sun
Would treat a father so,
To wait upon him hand and foot
And always tell him, "No"?
Tears of rage, tears of grief,
Why must I always be the thief?
--Bob Dlyan and Richard Manuel
"DLYAN"?!
Oh, great...
On pot of everything else, I'm dsylexic, oot!
Let's help the Isrealis by moving them to their new home in Bahgdad. That way we won't have to spend our hard earned money on Dumbshit Bush's dog wagging.
This administration is sure going to great measures to cover up what they did in New York last September.
This proves nothing. Show me a study or some sort of evidence that will support your mindless parroting statement in which I was responding to rather than dragging your hurt feelings into the discussion.
And just in case you have conveniently forgotten what the discussion was about, let me refresh your memory;
You blindly stated:
and I replied:
(the latter portion which you mysteriously neglected to address, or even acknowledge, tells me you are either reluctant or unable to support your, or whomever's, theory)
MORE HAPPENING IN ISRAEL THAN IS REPORTED
I'm writing to comment on the situation in Israel-Palestine.
I was part of a group, the International Jewish Peace Union, almost 20 years ago (and the most "right" in the group) that protested the policies of then-Israeli Defense Minister Ariel Sharon. This was the early 1980s.
A photo taken Sept. 11, 2001, of Palestinians cheering, was taken at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camp in southern Lebanon. This is the same place that Sharon led a massacre of 17,000 people, most of whom were Palestinian.
Some people in the International Jewish Peace Union and others had connections with people and lawyers in Israel at the time. They reported torture, closing down Palestinian schools, terrorizing the people there, keeping people in prison for almost nothing, and the confiscating of Palestinian land -- bulldozing the orchards, the olive trees. All of this was routine at that time.
I'm not totally sure that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat is totally "clean." However, there's a whole lot else going on, and has been that's not in the interests of peace that is not Yasser Arafat within Palestine-Israel.
The incursions into the West Bank, the siege of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, murdering and terrorizing Palestinians, attempting to assassinate Arafat and then blaming him for everything wrong there, can't be condoned by anyone.
We have to remember, too, that hate for "the Jews" is still commonplace in the Christian preaching of "the Jews killed our God."
Hopefully, after the fire this time, and I'm sure it will be a conflagration, humankind will consider the moral question: If there's a possibility to transfer priorities from the accumulation of wealth and cult of power-over-others to the transformation of our character. And how we treat and revere one another, and what God has given us.
--BEATRICE POGIN, DULUTH (News Tribune letter)
______________________________________________________
Dear Duane,
I don't debate with people who are incapable of having rational discussion and reply with witty things like "bullshit, prove it". All you would have had to do was disagree or tell me why you thought I was wrong, but that would have required actual thought on your part so you stuck with bullshit. And just for your information. When I replied to your original message all it said was "bullshit". We were on the board atthe same time, You then went back and after so much deep thought edited it to "bullshit prove it". So after the first message that I read I really didn't feel inclined to worry about appeasing your curiosity. Have a nice day Duane.
"A photo taken Sept. 11, 2001, of Palestinians cheering, was taken at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camp in southern Lebanon. This is the same place that Sharon led a massacre of 17,000 people, most of whom were Palestinian."
That woman has things mixed up. The 1982 operation in Sabra and Shatila was conducted by Phalangists, who I think were actually Lebanese. It was pretty brutal, but not that brutal. Calling it a massacre is loading the language.
Even a sight that wants to indict Sharonplaces the death figure at much less. There was a lot of of killing in Beirut, but 17,000 people did not die in Shitala and Sabra. I think this is when the United States stepped in again.
This debate is really getting sad. People are so tied up in their own damn agendas and intent on advancing their own points of view that the truth doesn't even matter anymore.
The Duluth paper should have checked that out before they printed it.
http://www.arabia.com/life/article/english/0,11827,28780,00.html
Rick, my guess is that the "17,000" figure was simply a typo, probably
actually meant to be 1,700, which would place it in the realm
of what's generally considered the accepted toll.
Or it may have been a mistaken reference to the total number of dead in the overall Israeli offensive at that time, estimated to have been
slightly under 20,000.
Here's an eyewitness account of what happened from a Jewish-American nurse.
URGENT APPEAL FROM NABLUS!
The Israeli army has launched a massive military operation against Nablus City, including its four refugee camps. For the fourth time in three months Israeli troops have re-invaded the city and suburbs under the pretext of fighting terrorism. However, according to the Israelis, this time the invasion will be for a longer period of time. The 150,000 residents of Nablus are forced to remain inside their homes, as a strict 24-hour military curfew has been imposed over the city.
Already Israeli tanks and armoured vehicles have vandalized the streets of the city, causing enormous physical damage to the infrastructure. Additionally, they have taken permanent positions on top of high buildings, forcing the residents to remain in one apartment of the building.
Mass arrests are taking place in most of the neighbourhoods of the city – thus far dozens of Palestinians have been seized and sent to detention centers. The whole social, educational and medical systems have come to a standstill; the end-of-year high school exam (tawjeehi) has been cancelled due to the fact that students are unable to leave their homes to attend school.
Medical teams are prevented from moving freely, ambulances are frequently stopped and medical personnel are harassed. One doctor and the driver from medical relief were detained for two hours while attempting to transport an ill two- year-old baby.
Yet again, the Israeli army is creating a situation of fear and terror among the civilian population, as well as endangering their lives. There is no justification for the attacks on civilians and collective punishment Palestinians are subjected to.
This latest Israeli aggression against Palestinians is another facet of the continuing aggression of the Israeli occupation. The international community should realize that the main cause of the current dangerous situation in the region is this occupation, and security and regional stability will not be assured until this occupation is ended.
We appeal to the international community to intervene immediately and force the Israeli government to comply with international law and to withdraw its forces immediately from the Palestinian areas.
--Union of Palestinian Medical Relief Committees, Nablus City, West Bank
Dennis,
Israel has repeatedly warned that it would retake and hang on to Palestinian territory if there were further attacks.
The events at Nablus is being done in response to a new wave of Palestinian attacks this week that also included two suicide bombings in Jerusalem which killed 26 people.
They have already shelled a house in the West Bank city of Nablus on Sunday, killing a suspected Hamas bombmaker whose work is blamed for the deaths of at least 100 Israelis in suicide bombings. Palestinians even described Tahir as one of the leading bombmakers in the Hamas military wing.
The toll from Thursday's assault on the settlement of Itamar was five, including Rachel Shabo and three of her six children, aged between five and 15. The terrorist climbed a fence, entered one of the houses and opened fire at its residents. Soldiers stormed the house and killed the gunman. Two other children in the house, which burned down after a bullet ignited a gas canister, were wounded by the gunman.
The people you are supporting are deliberately killing women and children.
Dang.
The solution to the Middle-East crisis came to me in a dream
last night.
But I couldn't find a pen and paper, upon waking.
And...I forgot.
That's the second time that's happened to me.
The first was when I came up with the way to achieve world peace.
Moral of story:
Always go to bed with a miniature tape recorder duct-taped to your
forehead.
;-)
In the meantime, pray you never get "occupied".
By the way...
How many Palestinian Intifadas would it take to equal one American Vietnam, in terms of innocent women and children killed in brutally indiscriminate bombing?
100?
200?
More?
(I'm not even gonna talk about Hiroshima or Nagasaki, until Aug. 6 and 9.)
The US military are not a band of terrorists, Dennis. They don't deserve to be compared to them.
If you can't see the difference, then, I guess you just can't see the difference.
Hey!
I may not be all Truth and Light.
But I AM Toot and Stench.
And, not that many decades ago, I was Quite The Hepcat.
So, ease up...
They are just a TOOL for the band of terrorists in Washington.
I've encountered a wide diversity of veterans over the years.
Rightwing jingoists who are always glorifying and promoting the military, while heaping contempt on "peaceniks".
Survivors of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, proudly aware that their service as volunteers against Franco in Spain was the most magnificent losing cause of the 20th century.
Old boys from WWII and Korea who'd show up at our peace rallies to take the mike, or bullhorn, to make passionate statements in our behalf.
Members of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, who threw their medals over the White House fence in the spring of '71.
My own father, who was an American Legion post commander, but who'd make sure that Memorial Day parades and graveside ceremonies wern't used to glamourize soldiering, to avoid conveying a propagandistic, false allure to impressionable youth.
A town drunk...who escaped a POW camp in Italy and walked to freedom in France, traveling only at night.
Many strange and bothered souls who went to Southeast Asia straight out of high school, and came back in varying states of dysfunction.
And -- perhaps most movingly -- veterans from other nations, including those who fought against our side in bloody years lost to history.
And what summation can I make?
Soldiers, warriors, ARE tools.
Regardless of their national origin, they're young people fresh out of school, where their respective countries have been portrayed as being uniquely associated with Godly righteousness, as other lands have been roundly demonized.
Once in the military, they're totally regimented and brainwashed.
They go into battle all gung-ho, as expendable pawns of political and economic interests that are rarely as pure and noble as the young soldiers have been indoctrinated to rigidly think.
Sometimes, as their ranks lay dying on foreign soil thousands of miles away from friendly familiarity, they begin to question what they've been told. Some change, others don't.
But many perish, in an orchestrated mass murder that has to be seen as humanity's greatest failing and folly -- something we need to evolve beyond.
For what they've endured, under lies more often that truth, I'll always "honor" veterans -- but primarily in helping assure that they'll receive the societal care and benefits
their sacrifice always ought to unstintingly entitle them to.
My wife and I went for a drive yesterday, stopping at a tavern in the country to eat.
There was a sign above the bar:
"We live in a country where medal-winning veterans are homeless in cardboard boxes, and a draft dodger lives in the White House."
a draft dodger lives in the White House."
Clinton no longer is in the White House.
Those peaceful Palistinians. Aren't they silly?
PBS had a two hour program last night called "Endgame in Ireland" about the process that secured a peace agreement in Northern Ireland. Interviewed all the players.
What I think has been kind of overlooked was the role that Sept. 11 played in the whole peace process there. Within a month or so after the attacks on New York, the IRA made a breakthrough announcement on the intractable issue of decommissioning their weapons. Much of their arsonal was put out of use before the end of the year.
The show didn't mention why that occurred within that timeframe only that it did occur. And I don't recall hearing of any violence in Northern Ireland since. That conflict went on for 30 years, and the bad blood could have gone on for centuries.
I went away from the documentary thinking that if they could do it, there should be hope for Israel and Palestine.
Yes like terrorists are taught to hate you and I.
You mean like the brainwashing you've recived from your Marxist re-education camp ?
We don't go into battle gung ho. I am sure there were a few of them, much of that is nervousness being hidden. We are trained to do a job that is one of the toughest in the world. Do firefighters and cops sit around and hope for a fire or a gang war ? No of course not it's the same with soilders. They train for a job they hope that they are never called to do. But after reading your insults I wouldn't and don't expect you to ever know or comprehend the difference.
Bill, Rob:
I don't think Quite the Hepcat(a.k.a. Dennis) meant anything personal or was trying to insult anyone, but he ought to take stock in some of his alliances before he starts talking about other people being naive and overly impressionable.
The ragtag band of anarchists and anti-globalists that trashed downtown Seattle a few years ago and tag along behind meetings of the G8 leaders aren't exactly a group of critical thinkers. Some of the more violent ones are fresh from the soccer matches. The more earnest well-meaning ones appear to be capable of being seduced by simplistic, but passionate rhetoric.
They're young people fresh out of school, where their respective countries have been portrayed as being uniquely associated with Godly righteousness, as other lands have been roundly demonized.
The young anti-globalist from Western Europe, blaming the US for...globalization and stuff...fits the profile, I'd say.
I'll take a ragtag band of rowdies over a bunch of coward Democrats any day of the week. They may not be critical thinkers, but at least they still have their balls attached. Speaking of castrated--What's Al Gore doing these days? Coming up with new ways to mortgage his party for fun and profit no doubt.
Kurt Rhemert posted this on the WOT board. It sums up how I feel pretty much and gives us a good look into why they will never succeed.
CAL THOMAS: Hamas' message to the Jews
(August 1, 3:15 p.m. CDT) - If there was ever any doubt about the intentions of the murderous machine known as Hamas, a comment by one of its leaders following Wednesday's cafeteria bombing at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, in which at least seven people were killed and dozens injured, should dispel any lingering illusions.
Crowing about the innocent dead and wounded, the Hamas spokesman said Jews should leave Israel and "return to where they came from."
How long would the United States support a "peace process" if, say, white supremacists in America were bombing black churches and promising the killings wouldn't stop until African-Americans went back where they "came from"? For generations, African-Americans have come from America. For thousands of years, Israeli Jews have come from Israel. Murder comes from Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. Their killing machines operate from territory ceded to them by Israel in the false hope of getting peace for land.
Hamas, along with the Palestinian Authority and Yasser Arafat, are part of a polluted mainstream of contemporary Arab thought. There are no living "moderates" among the Palestinians - at least none willing to step forward. They fear assassination if they dare challenge the killers.
Continued on next >
Continued from above
Some Hamas members said the Hebrew University operation was in retaliation for Israel's targeting of their leader, Salah Shehadeh, who was killed July 23 in an Israeli anti-terror operation in Gaza. That several civilians were killed in the Gaza bombing, including members of Shehadeh's family, was the result of a deliberate strategy: The terrorists place themselves among civilians so that when Israel strikes, civilians will be incidentally killed and the focus will shift from the dead terrorists to Israel's actions. Compare this with the deliberate targeting of Israeli babies, students and civilian adults by Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups. For them, there is no "collateral damage." (They don't even exclude fellow Arabs, some of whom were injured in the Hebrew University attack.) The spoken and written goal is to eliminate Israel and place any remaining Jews in the region under the authority of an Islamic empire.
Western European and American policy toward the region has been based on many false assumptions, including the assumption that the Palestinians have been deprived of "their land" and giving it back will make them more hospitable toward Israel. Another assumption is that the deplorable conditions in which many Palestinians live fuels their anger. American liberals preached a similar doctrine in the '60s and '70s, trying to establish a link between poverty and criminal activity in this country, especially among minorities.
A new report by the National Bureau of Economic Research in Cambridge, Mass., suggests otherwise. The report, "Education, Poverty, Political Violence and Terrorism: Is There A Causal Connection?" looked at the jobs, educational level and family circumstances of 129 Hezbollah militants, based in Lebanon, who were killed in operations against Israel over the past 20 years. The study found that compared with the Lebanese population as a whole, Hezbollah members were less likely to come from poor families and more likely to have finished secondary school. A similar link between terrorism and educational attainment was found for Palestinian suicide bombers.
It may surprise some, but the study found no link between violent acts and poverty. Violence in the Middle East, the study says, seems to have increased when local economic conditions were improving, not getting worse.
What this ought to tell Western policymakers is that the murderous tactics being used against Israel are part of a political, educational and religious system that won't be swayed by Western notions of a "balanced approach" or appealing to an end to the "cycle of violence," as if moral symmetry exists between the two sides in the conflict. It doesn't, because the goals are different. Israel is prepared to co-exist with its neighbors. The Palestinians and most Arab states want to exist without Israel. On their maps, Israel does not exist. In their minds, they plot to eliminate it. In their hearts, they commit and condone murder to achieve this objective.
Why is this so difficult for the U.S. State Department and Western European leaders to understand?
http://24hour.startribune.com/24hour/opinions/story/485543p-3876016c.html
You better watch out Rob, Cal Thomas is posted at Townhall. fold and the extreme left winger will be gunning for you soon. See.
Sraven,
No one would deny that is sad and unimaginaible and horrid. What is also sad and unimaginable is that the Palestinains target civilians intentionally with no military objectives. I don't think we want to statr comparing the two. The difference is that most of the Isralies killed were killed as intentional civilian deaths. Some mother and her child were killed because they were somehow oppressing the Palestinians eating a slice of Sbarro. Or they were opressing their people by taking the wrong bus that day.
Hell Sraven they don't even care if THEIR OWN PEOPLE are hurt or killed in the attack, the look at them as being unfortunate to be there, they know there own people will be there and they still murder away. And I'm supposed to give them any creedence ? I know, I'm sure you'll point to an episode as stated above etc and that's why this place has been at war for such a long time, it;s well you did this and well yea you did that and etc etc. And they keep killing eachother.
As I said I was a firm supporter of the idea that the Palestinians should have their own state with borders etc. As recently as two months ago I was still saying that. But I have also seen the non stop murder of civilinas as intentional targets. I have seen the writings from their schools that basically teach that Jews are lower than animals. They are taught to hate from day one. Most of the population
supports the P.A and the P.A supports and or turns a blind eye to Hammas. I no longer feel that the Palestinains deserve a state. Terrorism and murder should NEVER be rewarded, EVER. Everytime they intentionally murder civilinas and use them as targets they lose support from people in the U.S. They don't get that, they are losing people supportive of their cause daily. I was never 100% in my support of Israel and still am not. However, my choice is clear and becoming more clear for others.
The only way to kill terror, is to.....KILL THE TERRORISTS!!!!!!
It seems like the only "acceptable alternative" for Hamas is for the population of the State of Israel is to walk into the Mediterranean Sea and drown.
Short of that, the suicide bombing won't end.
Golda Meir said there will be peace when the Palistinians love their children more than they hate Israel.
Sraven,
I would agree with that in a way and admit I am conflicted on it.
Many of the terrorists or should I say leaders are educated people I mean that they are educated in western schools. The idea of people being poor doesn't hold water because first of all that's a myth, many of them come from middle or upper middle class families. Second, there are poor people all over the world who do not resort to killing civilians or their OWN PEOPLE. Third, Arafat takes alot of money from the Palestinians.
I think that's what we are trying to do by discussing a legitamate Palestinian state but also by getting rid of Arafat. He's part of the problem and not thge solution. Of course the minute we do that we are accused of intervetnion and being imperialistic. We can't win I guess.
The other problem is that many Palestinains don't even want the Jewish people to defile the ground they walk on. How do you deal with ignorance and hate like that ? They don't understand that with every school or disco blown up that they lose support from rational people. When they quit killing civilians and there own people intentionally I'll listen to their plight.
Rick, take note of this because for once you and I are in total agreement. :-)
I think it's obvious who's continuing the madness in Israel.
I don't know Ararat, What do you call intentionally killing civilians ? You are a master at massacres, you perfected them.
Oh and here's some interesting news.........
Amnesty International also issued a similar report but we won't hear much of this story. It doens't sell papers.
How about some obervers or troops to prevent you from killing people at will. In fact, how about trying not to kill your own people as well.
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One of the cartoon charachters i was surprised to see on the top 50 list was............
JOEsie and the pussycats.
Arafat's remarks came a day after the U.N. issued a lengthy report saying there was no evidence to support Palestinian claims of an Israeli massacre in Jenin during fighting in April.
.....we won't hear much of this story. It doens't sell papers.
You noticed that too huh?
Jenin massacre my ass!
Yes it's amazing how that story was at the top of the headlines in papers and led the news on most major media outlets.
Did you notice that they also criticized the Palestinains for stockpiling weapons in the town. Hmmmm Yes Jenin refugee camp takes on a whole different image doesn't it ?
One other thing that is not noticed in the news. The attack killing of one of the top Hammas terror leaders and the news outlets rush to help the terrorists overlooked the fact that the leader was in violation of the geneva convention. When you hide among civilians expect ot have civilians killed. Hell they don't worry about killing their own people so I guess why would they worry about the Geneva convention. They've made their bed. I noticed yesterday's Pioneer Press editorial criticizing Bush for not reigning in Sharon more. What ? How about Arafat regining Hamas in ? These people are idiots.
What ? How about Arafat regining Hamas in?
Yeah, talk about one sided. What's funny is they're serious when they say it.
I know and I don't get it. How anyone could defend or rationalize it is beyond me. I think it's their rush to find them somehow the underdog. I can say this, If we were dealing with the same type of an internal struggle here I wonder how patient they'd be ? These people are hate filled thugs who intentionally murder civilians as a way to further a cause. To me it shows how out of touch the editorial boards have become out of touch with reality. Do the Isralies have any blame, sure. But they seem to overlook that the Palestinains are trying intnetionally to kill civilians (and their own people if they get in the way) and the Isralies are doing what they need to do to protect their citizens. Again I wonder how patient we'd be if they were blowing up bombs in the Mall of America or killing people at a Twins game simply because they were a certain nationality and they claimed to have a grievance do you think the coverage might be different and the editorials a different slant to them ? But hey as long as we're being sensative to the plight of the Palestinans who march and cheer in mass at the announcement of any Isralie deaths.
Valid point. Maybe it will take daily suicide bombings in the U.S. for these people to wise up.
It's the absolute right of oppressed people to win freedom by ANY MEANS NECESSARY.
The operative word here, of course, is "necessary".
If those means are shocking to the oppressor -- or if they objectively violate norms of common decency -- then the onus is on the oppressor himself for having consistently and rigidly denied the downtrodden...democratic, within-accepted-channel methods/opportunities for redress of their legitimate, painful, INTOLERABLE grievances.
It goes without saying that there would be no pathetic, desperate Palestinian freedom fighters blowing themselves up on crowded Israeli buses or in discos IF there had never been a prior, Zionist INTRANSIGENCE regarding ANY prospect for Palestinians to achieve a homeland on THEIR terms.
Not on Ariel Sharon's terms.
Or on George Bush's.
Or on the bullshit, bigoted idiocy of U.S. rightwingers.
But on those of the broad mass of ordinary Palestinian people, who know their own, collective reality in all of its decades-long victimization at the hands of an occupying, rights-denying, bulldozing, settlement building, supremacist and exclusionary religo-political colonialism and state terrorism that has NEVER tolerated the notion of Palestinian say-so in realizing Palestinian destiny.
Want to correctly, accurately affix blame for suicide bombings, a phenomenon that will only escalate, in many places, as one-sided, repressive power continues to rest with the strong-arm, plundering Israels and Americas of this world?
Look in the mirror, oh socially irresponsible, greedy, and abysmally prejudiced ones!
For it is the selfish killers of others' valid dreams and aspirations who make vengeful, actual killers out of those chronically and relentlessly so tormented, and deprived.
Remember this pivotal axiom, proven correct throughout history:
Those who make peaceful reform impossible make violent revolution inevitable.
Same old Dennis.
It's ok to murder innocent people as long as an oppression is perceived.
I'm currently being oppressed by Liberals and the local school district.
Where do I sign up for my suicide bombing?
Just kidding of course.
"Those who make peaceful reform impossible make violent revolution inevitable."
There will be peace when the Palistinians start loving their children more than they hate Israel.
Unless an enlightened regime comes to power in Israel and makes
genuine concessions to the Palestinians' legitimate sovereignty needs -- and does so with authentic contrition for past
abuses (manifested in such demonstrably meaningful changes as dismantling the interloper settlements) -- there'll be less chance of peace ever emerging in the Middle East than there'd be for a Hells Angels consensus emerging to give up their Harleys...and start riding 90cc Suzuki glorified mopeds instead.
I WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME
My son was killed by a Palestinian fighter. But Israel's occupation is to blame for his death
Yitzhak Frankenthal, Wednesday August 7, 2002, The Guardian
My beloved son Arik, my own flesh and blood, was murdered by Palestinians. My tall, blue-eyed, golden-haired son who was always smiling with the innocence of a child and the understanding of an adult. My son. If to hit his killers, innocent Palestinian children and other civilians would have to be killed, I would ask the security forces to wait for another opportunity.
My beloved son Arik was murdered by a Palestinian. Should the security forces have information of this murderer's whereabouts, and should it turn out that he was surrounded by innocent children and other Palestinian civilians, then - even if the security forces knew that the killer was planning another murderous attack and they now had the choice of curbing a terror attack that would kill innocent Israeli civilians, but at the cost of hitting innocent Palestinians, I would tell the security forces not to seek revenge.
I would rather have the finger that pushes the trigger or the button that drops the bomb tremble before it kills my son's murderer, than for innocent civilians to be killed. I would say to the security forces: do not kill the killer. Rather, bring him before an Israeli court. You are not the judiciary. Your only motivation should not be vengeance, but the prevention of any injury to innocent civilians.
Ethics are not black and white - they are all white. Ethics have to be free of vengefulness and rashness. Every act must be carefully weighed before a decision is made to see whether it meets strict ethical criteria. Our ethics are hanging by a thread, at the mercy of every soldier and politician.
It is unethical to kill innocent Israeli or Palestinian women and children. It is also unethical to control another nation and to lead it to lose its humaneness. It is patently unethical to drop a bomb that kills innocent Palestinians. It is blatantly unethical to wreak vengeance upon innocent bystanders.
It is, on the other hand, supremely ethical to prevent the death of any human being. But if such prevention causes the futile death of others, the ethical foundation for such prevention is lost. A nation that cannot draw the line is doomed eventually to apply unethical measures against its own people. The worst in my mind is not what has already happened but what I am sure one day will. And it will - because the political and military leadership does not even have the most basic integrity to say: "we are sorry". We lost sight of our ethics long before the suicide bombings. The breaking point was when we started to control another nation.
My son Arik was born into a democracy with a chance for a decent, settled life. Arik's killer was born into an appalling occupation, into an ethical chaos. Had my son been born in his stead, he may have ended up doing the same. Had I myself been born into the political and ethical chaos that is the Palestinians' daily reality, I would certainly have tried to kill and hurt the occupier; had I not, I would have betrayed my essence as a free man. Let all the self-righteous who speak of ruthless Palestinian murderers take a hard look in the mirror and ask themselves what they would have done had they been the ones living under occupation. I can say for myself that I, Yitzhak Frankenthal, would have undoubtedly become a freedom fighter and would have killed as many on the other side as I possibly could. It is this depraved hypocrisy that pushes the Palestinians to fight us relentlessly - our double standard that allows us to boast the highest military ethics, while the same military slays innocent children. This lack of ethics is bound to corrupt us.
My son Arik was murdered when he was a soldier by Palestinian fighters who believed in the ethical basis of their struggle against the occupation. My son Arik was not murdered because he was Jewish but because he is part of the nation that occupies the territory of another. I know these are concepts that are unpalatable, but I must voice them loud and clear, because they come from my heart - the heart of a father whose son did not get to live because his people were blinded with power.
As much as I would like to do so, I cannot say that the Palestinians are to blame for my son's death. That would be the easy way out, but it is we, Israelis, who are to blame because of the occupation. Anyone who refuses to heed this awful truth will eventually lead to our destruction.
The Palestinians cannot drive us away - they have long acknowledged our existence. They have been ready to make peace with us; it is we who are unwilling to make peace with them. It is we who insist on maintaining our control over them; it is we who escalate the situation in the region and feed the cycle of bloodshed. I regret to say it, but the blame is entirely ours.
I do not mean to absolve the Palestinians and by no means justify attacks against Israeli civilians. No attack against civilians can be condoned. But as an occupation force it is we who trample over human dignity, it is we who crush the liberty of Palestinians and it is we who push an entire nation to crazy acts of despair.
--Yitzhak Frankenthal is the chairman of the Families Forum. This is an edited version of a speech he made at a rally in Jerusalem on Saturday July 27 2002.