GAZA CITY, Aug 29: Four members of a Palestinian family were killed by Israeli tank shells in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, sending another shockwave through an already fragile plan to ease tensions between the sides.
Israeli tanks stormed the Sheikh Ajleen neighbourhood of Gaza City shortly after Wednesday midnight, killing Rueida al-Hajeen, 55, her sons Ashraf, 22, and Nuhad, 17, as well as her nephew, Mohammad, 17, Palestinian medical sources said.
Palestinian ambulances rushed to the scene but were barred by the Israeli army from rescuing the injured.
this is what happens when a man or a State become an evil monster.
...Palestinians can have their homes demolished for “security reasons.” Oftentimes this means that your house is built on a hill, you have a nice lawn, and the army would like to turn it into a new base. In Qualqilya a whole neighborhood was rounded up at night, the men and women forced to squat on the ground for 13 hours as each house was systematically searched for “weapons.” Since no weapons were found, the soldiers decided to ransack many of the houses, shooting holes in the walls, smashing furniture and tipping over dressers. By the end of the day at least a dozen houses had been damaged, several had been demolished and one man was shot-dead in the head through the window as he stood making coffee for his family.
I asked the soldiers that stood below the window why they had shot the man. One told me he was a terrorist. One said he didn’t know about it. The third said it had never happened. I pointed to the trail of blood that was running all the way down the steps and into the street.
“It never happened?” I asked him again. “It never happened?” He turned and lit a cigarette.
Life is cheap in the West Bank. Having witnessed a suicide attack against several Israelis in Jerusalem, I was familiar with the flurry of activity that follows—the sealing off of the block, the swarm of soldiers and snipers, the press and the volunteer medical committees. On the Palestinian side it’s different. After a civilian is shot the army stands outside your house and smokes cigarettes. There is no media coverage and there are no international statements condemning the attack. If the curfew is on, the victim’s family is not even able to leave the house in order to bury the dead; they must keep the corpse indoors until the army announces that people can leave their homes. This will happen on any given day in any city in the West Bank and Gaza.
Yes, there is violence committed on both sides, and each time the result is terrible. But there is a difference between the violence committed by groups of desperate Palestinians who see no other alternative and the systematic violence committed by the fourth largest military power in the world. Israel receives 18 million US tax dollars every day, the majority of which is used to purchase weapons to sustain an illegal military occupation that has lasted 35 years. It is an occupation that, instead of providing security, feeds the region’s appetite for violence...
"But i am reading something different stories on press in these days about the treatment of American law enforcement agencies with Pakistanis in US! they are being arrested and tortured by FBI and other agencies after 911. "
Pakistani or native-born American, arrest and torture is part of daily life in the United States, Naeem. It happens to everyone.
Don't come here, the place is an insane asylum. I live in constant fear of arrest and torture.
The difference bteween the Palestinains and the Israelies. Palestinians celebrate by the thousands at the death of Isralie Children they intentiuonally target. The Isralies don't, some even protest and some apologize for it since it was a non intended target. Intent goes a long way. A Hamas idiot was quoted as saying he's going to make Isralie citizens pay for that. Guess all the Palestinains will have another chance to party and celebrate the intended death of children.
Contrary to your assesment or failure to adrress part of the question. I can tell you that if our aid stopped today to Israel. Our influence wouldn't mean much, they'd kick every Palestinan out of Israel. We have restrained them many times from doing just that or close to it. WE ALSO GIVE AID TO THE PALESTINIANS WHICH SEEMS TO BE OVERLOOKED. Of course Arafat steals it so perhaps we should end that too. Fine, we'll end aid to Israel Naeem. See how long it takes before Israel takes out every enemy unfettered. I don't think you'd like the results.
In conjunction with a vintage WWII air show, Paul Tibbets is in town this weekend.
He's the pilot of the Enola Gay, the B-29 that dropped the A-bomb on Hiroshima.
Commenting on his "autograph-signing" appearance, Duluth's Reader Weekly had this to say:
"Ever since then he's made a virtual career out of going around and announcing he still doesn't regret it. We civilians who feel guilty about running over a squirrel and overfeeding the goldfish shudder with admiration at his ability to conquer self-doubt."
Being a progressive community, there'll be a protest, heartily endorsed by a former U.S. sailor with quite a story.
Edward L. Stayton, 77, of Cromwell, MN, was a fireman 1st class on a Navy destroyer in the Pacific during WWII. On Sept, 1, 1945, he and fellow shipmates went ashore at Nagasaki, to liberate 700 U.S. and Dutch Indonesian POWs held near the city.
He arrived three weeks after Nagasaki had been nuked.
"They say the bombs helped end the war, but at what cost? Mr. Tibbets has his view on the importance of the Bomb, but I was there. The day we dropped anchor at Nagasaki was a watershed moment in my life.
"I remember clearly the corpse of a child -- probably three years old -- floating upside down, bloated and barbecued, in the harbor. I remember streets piled high with charred bones and heaps of human remains. I will never forget that for all eternity.
"From that point on I was no longer a bright-eyed patriot, willing to turn my conscience over to the government. Wars are unconscionable. They are hell on earth. And it is a crime to to use the lives of children to win them."
A vigil on behalf of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki victims (plus the people of the Marshall Islands, U.S. atomic veterans, and all those poisoned by nuclear testing) will take place tonight at Airport and Haines Roads, sponsored by Northland Action for Peace and Justice, Grandmothers for Peace, and Loaves & Fishes community.
Participants will also make known their united opposition to attacking Iraq.
So you've got that patriotic urge and want to save the world from terrorists and all the "Evil Doers" the President has been pointing his finger at. Noble thought no doubt, but maybe just a little more thinking should be put in, before you sign on that dotted line.
I did that one time, I mean putting my name on that dotted line and that was over thirty years ago and I am still paying the price. I had that same patriotic urge, except it wasn't terrorists I wanted to stop, I wanted to stop Communist aggression from engulfing those democratic loving people in Vietnam. After the dastardly attack on our American ships in the Gulf of Tonkin what true American boy wouldn't run down and sign up?
Well there never was an attack on those ships and the President of the United States, my President, Lyndon Baines Johnson already knew that we were going to lose that war and said so on tapes, those tapes were made before I signed up, but just made public now. He just forgot to tell the rest of us we were going to lose and another 30.000+ young men gave their lives for Patriotism...
Oh, the bugler calls again, and flags are waving as the young men march away from hearth and home For the cause of "righteousness" requires saving from the "demons" far across the frothing foam.
There are women on the sidelines wracked with weeping who have babies in their arms, so unaware And a cheering crowd, awake, but really sleeping that believes the callous lies that brought it there.
In the background dogs of war are darkly prowling while the clerics pray to God to intervene And a wind begins to rise in gusts of howling with a smell like dying dreams and kerosene.
Where the politicians rave, there is no reason where the rich men smile, there is no sacred truth Just the advent of another bloody season and the sacrifice of callow, trusting youth.
Civil liberties compromised in the name of patriotism
What have your neighbors been doing lately? Noticed anything suspicious? In the past, if your neighbors were acting funny, you had only the tired old strategies of asking them, "What's up?" or peeking at them from behind the curtains.
But now -- O brave new world! -- there is a national government office charged with collecting and processing neighbors' reports about neighbors, bus-drivers' reports about suspicious passengers, and the like. This office came into being in January 2002 and was supposed to be fully functioning by "late summer 2002," which is now. So I guess we can all sleep a little more soundly at night.
TIPS, or Terrorism Information and Prevention System, is one of the initiatives of President Bush's Citizen Corps, and we are all invited to join. Should we? TIPS will be "providing a centralized telephone hot line and Web-based reporting system that automatically and immediately routes tips to appropriate federal, state and local law enforcement nationwide" (see the official and informative Web site at www.citizencorps.gov).
Now let's think about this for a minute. In an ideal case, what alarms one neighbor about another is something real, threatening and TIP-worthy. Neighbor 1 reports Neighbor 2, and a terrible disaster is averted. But life seldom presents us with ideal cases. A more likely scenario is that Neighbors 1 and 2 just don't get along. Neighbor 2 reports neighbor 1 for a bad reason, perhaps motivated by an errant pet or too much tuba practice. Let's follow the possible history of this pseudo-TIP in our post-9/11 democracy: Day 1: Too much tuba, too little pet cleanup; the report is phoned in via the hot line, and Neighbor 1's name is routed "immediately and automatically" to law enforcement agencies nationwide.
Day 2: While neighbor 1 is at work, FBI agents covertly search her house and plant recording devices in her computer and telephone. (You think this isn't legal? You are an optimist indeed! It has been perfectly OK since the passage of the USA Patriot Act of December 2001, which permits "sneak and peek" search and surveillance, in which the target is not informed.) Day 3: Neighbor 2's Russian grandmother calls and they have a quick conversation in Russian, consisting entirely of complaints and consolations about old age. This conversation is recorded and replayed many times in an FBI regional office, but no one on duty speaks Russian. Neighbor 2 is arrested on the bus that afternoon. (She can be held without immediate charges if the reason is "intelligence-related," thanks to our post-9/11 world of expanded government powers.)
Day 4: Neighbor 2's son, away at college, has been taking courses on Islamic culture, as the local police discover upon searching his confidential student records. (Also quite legal since the Patriot Act.) He is detained for questioning. His summer job in a chemistry lab adds to his aura of suspicion. Information about him is distributed nationwide, and a security-risk tag is affixed to his file. He will never find this out, but will always wonder why he finds it so hard to get jobs.
Day 5: Released after her questioning, neighbor 2 returns home to find her noncitizen Russian immigrant husband has been detained by INS and is scheduled for a deportation hearing. He is being held without charges, and she cannot communicate with him (also legal thanks to the Patriot Act).
Day 6: Neighbor 3 informs Neighbor 2 that it was nasty old neighbor 1 who started all this with the false report to TIPS. Neighbor 2 either collapses in a heap or begins to plan her revenge ... not a beautiful day in this neighborhood!
Does this sound unrealistic? Unfortunately it is quite a possible scenario in our nation today. Many, many of our basic civil liberties have been compromised, in the interests of expanding government power over citizens. So much secret government activity has been sanctioned that Dan Burton, Republican chairman of the House Government Reform Committee, has said, "An iron veil is descending over the executive branch." The TIPS Web site lists "Frequently Asked Questions," and one of them is, "Will I receive an ID, plaque or proof of my volunteer status?" This question is either very scary, very sad or both.
Last Sept. 11, the United States suffered a devastating blow from outside. Since that time, our civil liberties have been steadily eroded from the inside. Which is the more tragic harm: one that destroys lives and buildings, or one that destroys the noblest political system our planet has known?
--EVE BROWNING, associate professor in the Philosophy Department at the University of Minnesota Duluth.
Please show me where any of this is legal under this act (which was approved by the senate with a count of 98-1) without first showing probable cause and receiving a court order.
Has probable cause and a court order eliminated unnecessary searches and seizures in the past, Dan?
If the answer is "no" can you safely assume that new laws and new activity could bring about new abuses?
What's the Senate vote got to do with it? It seems the right is a fairly suspicious type when it comes to government, particularly a Senate that votes 98 -1 for anything.
Are you one of those types who figure that if a guy is sitting in the police car, he's guilty?
Come on Rick, you know that this act does nothing close to what Dennis' opinion piece claims. You know that piece is full of half truths and outright lies, but it is against something that President Bush wants so it is alright with you and your left wing extremist marching orders.
What's the Senate vote got to do with it?
All of those folks that you praise voted for it but one, yet you some how you want to put all the blame for this act onto Bush. Pretty extreme attempt to attack the president even in your eyes, isn't it?
I find it sad that this is one of the few things that the Democrats have done to help fight terrorism and yet they try to give all the credit to President Bush. Sort of takes away what they can answer when asked what they have done to fight terrorism.
Are you one of those types who figure that if a guy is sitting in the police car, he's guilty?
Of course not, but you have proven that if President Bush wants something that you think it is wrong - even if all but one of your favorites in the senate voted for it. Wellstone, Daschle, Dayton, Kennedy, Lieberman, etc. all voted for it. Are you telling me that Wellstone is a bad person now? How about Lieberman and the others? Are they now terrible people that you will be asking people to vote against as well or are you just too partisan and only concerned with President Bush and Republicans? Does it not matter to you what your extremist liberal Democrats do as long as they are not Republican by name? So sad.
By the way, you forgot to work Rush into your attempt to discredit my question. Try harder next time.
Maybe you could point out where I even mentioned George Bush or that I was even necessarily against this, Dan.
Here's my real concerns, and these questions evidently slipped by you:
Has probable cause and a court order eliminated unnecessary searches and seizures in the past, Dan?
If the answer is "no" can you safely assume that new laws and new activity could bring about new abuses?
Now, are those the questions of an extremist nature, Dan?
I've turned off talk radio, so I probably won't know in the future if you are parroting Limbaugh or not. But it's plain to see for someone who claims to dislike political parties, you never lose sight of who's a Democrat and who's a Republican.
The Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft, blithe, unapologetic, semen-dripping rape of Miss Liberty ought to make every American -- especially those who've expressed worries about endangered freedom in previous contexts -- stand up in staunch, unified outrage.
Where are the gun-rights advocates when real governmental Gestapo tactics become the NORM?
Where are the voices that decried Ruby Ridge and Waco?
Does the Right only concern itself with Constitutional threats when they cut their way?
I guess so, since conservatives were the ones behind America's worst periods of repression -- the Palmer Raids, McCarthyism, and COINTELPRO.
AND the current travesties allegedly associated with "combatting terrorism", but actually intended to impose conformity by chilling dissent.
I've always maintained there's precious little difference between U.S. rightwingers and outright, historical fascists.
Both are prepared to destroy democracy to try to preserve unhindered plutocratic privilege.
I can see where a woman like EVE BROWNING, associate professor in the Philosophy Department at the University of Minnesota Duluth might be concerned about her freedoms.
Lynne Cheney, -- the woman who eats dinner with the Vice President every night -- belongs to an organization that compiled a list of 40 college professors who said things that her outfit didn't like.
Republicans really don't care much for college professors, unless it's the good kind like Dick Armey, Phil Gramm and Newt Gingrich. Maybe she's worried about getting on The List.
Maybe you could point out where I even mentioned George Bush or that I was even necessarily against this, Dan.
Gee, I guess you did not have the president in mind when commenting on my questioning of Dennis' post which mentions President Bush by name. How silly of me.
Now, are those the questions of an extremist nature, Dan?
They are when they are meant to discredit a valid question to Dennis that neither of you care to answer.
I've turned off talk radio, so I probably won't know in the future if you are parroting Limbaugh or not.
You have never shown where I have ever parroted anyone, so please do not make that claim.
But it's plain to see for someone who claims to dislike political parties, you never lose sight of who's a Democrat and who's a Republican.
Yes, I have been pushed towards the Republicans by the extreme politics of the democrats and that is just one of the reasons that I hate the party system that we have. Look at the people on these boards. People like you and Dennis who look at anything that the current president does as being the end of the world and anything that a democrat does as being inspired by god.
Our current president is not perfect, but who is? He most definitely is not the devil in human form as many have tried to portray him as though.
And after all this posting to try to portray yourself as middle of the road, you go on to talk about Dick Cheney's wife and Dennis just ignores my question prefering to talk about "dripping semen".
By the way, Hillary is also a member of the same organization that you speak of. Maybe this power hungry person is the one responsible for the list that you speak of.
Asked in an interview with CNN how he would respond if the United States asked to put more troops in Pakistan, Gen Musharraf replied: "US troops? No, I don't think that would be wise at all.
"We are fully involved in this act. We don't need assistance. We will ask for assistance if we require it. I think our forces are capable of meeting whatever is required in Pakistan."
ATTACK ON IRAQ: Pakistan is not "at all" interested in joining efforts to topple Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, President Musharraf said.
He warned that too many Muslim countries were being targeted in military operationsand equated efforts to remove Saddam Hussein with yet another attack on a Muslim country.
"At the moment all the political disputes, all the military action, all the casualties, the suffering, are by the Muslims around the world, because all the political disputes involve Muslims unfortunately," he said.
"And more unfortunately Muslims happen to be at the receiving end every year. Therefore another ... action against a Muslim country will certainly have its impact."
The army chief also said there was "no point" in Islamabad providing any kind of support to a military strike on Iraq.
I think its good idea to keep ourselves away from the madness of Bush and his dumb hawks
First of all your conspiracy theories are just that, theories with absolutely ZERO facts to back it up. Try using some, heck, any facts. The attacks were planned for years and through 2 presidents. The intelligence failures were because we stripped our intell community of many of the tools needed including not paying people who are bad guys. A bad idea in my book, if there's a bad guy who can help save thousands of lives we should do it but we didn't so we weren't payrolling bad guys. The policy created years ago failed. Not the people, they did what they could and with the resources they had.
You claim you would call for your leaders resignation. Do you do so whenever something happens that's out of his control ? Here's the thing you fail miserebly to see or admit. If someone is willing to die to attack you there's really nothing you can do about it or stop them all, you can take precautions but unless you close your society you will never stop all of them if they are willing to die doing so. Take a look at Israel for proof of that, they know the attacks are coming and still can't stop them becasue people are willing to blow themselves and you up all in the name of religion. Nice try Peter, try some facts next time o.k.
For those that still wonder if the Palestinians don't want to see Israel even exist as they've said in the past here you go. And they're supposed to negotiate with those who want Israel to not even exist? All the while intentionally killing thier civilians. So hmm yea they should appease the terrorists. Right.
Palestinian Goal is Destruction of Israel in Stages By Itamar Marcus
Introduction: Israeli Chief of Staff Ayalon caused a political stir this week by announcing that the Palestinian Authority plan is to destroy Israel in stages, through the implementation of the Oslo Accords.
His professional assessment based on military intelligence analysis confirms the findings in a PMW report published last year which documents some of the numerous statements made by Palestinian political leaders in Arabic, including Faisal Husseini, which lead to the same conclusion. These include explicit statements in Arabic that the purpose of Oslo is to destroy Israel.
As a service to our readers we are redistributing this report.
PMW Special Report No. 31 [updated - May 2002]
Is the Palestinian Goal   A Peace Agreement or “Hudna” [cease fire]? Written by Itamar Marcus, Director
Executive Summary: Israeli Arab Knesset Member Abd-Al Malek Dahamshe was interviewed on Palestinian Television. A viewer called in to the studio and commented that, “Our problem with Israel is not a border problem, but one of existence”. Dahamshe responded: “We exaggerate when we say ‘peace’... what we are [really] speaking about is ‘Hudna’”.
[Israeli Arab Knesset Member Abd-Al Malek Dahamshe, PATV, 1 September 2000]
“Hudna” is an Islamic term meaning cease fire. MK Dahamshe accepted the position expressed by the caller, by referring to the agreements with Israel not as “Peace” but rather as a cease fire.
This report investigates to what extent this position of Dahamshe reflects the position of the Palestinian Authority. When Palestinian officials speak to their own people in Arabic, do they anticipate that a permanent agreement with Israel will be peace agreement ending the conflict with Israel, or that it is just a “Hudna” a temporary cease fire?
Findings: The research demonstrates a clear and unified world-view within the Palestinian leadership, in speeches to the nation, in educational programs, and through school textbooks published by the Palestinian Authority. Consistently Israel is defined as a colony that stole the land of “Palestine” having no right to exist. Therefore within the framework of the “justice”, there is no room for Israel’s permanent existence. The Arabic Palestinian lexicon contains many expressions to describe the negotiations with Israel in this context: “The permanent agreement is a stage”; “The Oslo accord is to gain a foothold”; “All the agreements are temporary”. In this context the Oslo process is part of the process of liberating “Palestine”. The recurrent justification given for the need for a temporary agreement with Israel is “because of current balance of power”. From the positions expressed within the Palestinian Authority it is evident that Dahamshe’s position whereby the permanent status agreement with Israel is to be viewed as “Hudna”, is the rule and not the exception.
The following are a few examples where PA leaders have stated this explicitly.
1. Faisal Husseini, Palestinian Authority Representative for Jerusalem Affairs:
Oslo accords are a Trojan Horse:
“Had the U.S. and Israel realized, before Oslo, that all that was left of the Palestinian National movement and the Pan-Arab movement was a wooden horse called Arafat or the PLO, they would never have opened their fortified gates and let it inside their walls... This effort [the Intifada] could have been much better, broader, and more significant had we made it clearer to ourselves that the Oslo agreement, or any other agreement, is just a temporary procedure, or just a step towards something bigger... We distinguish the strategic, long-term goals from the political phased goals, which we are compelled to temporarily accept due to international pressure. ... [Palestine] according to the higher strategy [is]: ‘from the river to the sea.’ Palestine in its entirety is an Arab land, the land of the Arab nation.”
[Al-Arabi' -Egypt, 24 June 2001]
2. Abd El Aziz Shahian, Palestinian Authority Minister of Supplies:
Oslo is just the first step in the destruction of Israel:
“The Palestinian people accepted the Oslo agreements as a first step and not as a permanent settlement, based on the premise that the war and struggle in the land is more efficient than a struggle from a distant land [i.e. Tunisia, where the PLO was based before Oslo -Ed] ... the Palestinian people will continue the revolution until they achieve the goals of the ’65 revolution...”.
[P.A. Minister of Supply Abd El Aziz Shahian, Al Ayyam, 30 May 2000]
[The “’65 Revolution” is the founding of the P.L.O. and the publication of the Palestinian charter that calls for the destruction of Israel via an armed struggle.]
3. Othman Abu Arbiah, Arafat’s Deputy:
The Palestinian state is just the first stage:
“... At this stage we’ll prevail in our struggle [toward] the goals of the stages [plan]. The goal of this stage is the establishment of the independent Palestinian State, with its capital in Jerusalem. When we achieve this, it will be a positive [step] and it will advance us to the next stage via other ways and means... ‘Every Palestinian must know clearly and unequivocally that the independent Palestinian State, with Jerusalem as its capital is not the end of the road’. The [rise of] the Palestinian State is a stage after which there will be another stage and that is the democratic state in all of Palestine [i.e. in place of Israel].”
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 25 November 1999]
[Othman Abu Arbiah is Arafat’s aide for Political Guidance and national affairs, and the Director-General for National Affairs, a senior position in the Palestinian national educational structure]
4. Sheikh Yousuf Abu Sneina, the preacher of the Al-Aqza Mosque:
All of Israel is “Palestine” forever:
“The Islamic land of Palestine is one and can not be divided. There is no difference between Haifa and Nablus, between Lod and Ramallah, between Jerusalem and Nazareth, between Gaza and Ashkelon. The land of Palestine is Waqf land that belongs to Moslems throughout the world and no one has the right to act freely or the right to make concessions or to abandon her. Whoever does this betrays a [trust] and is nothing more than a loathsome criminal whose abode is in Hell!”
[The Preacher of Al Aqza Mosque, Sheikh Yousuf Abu Sneina, PATV, 8 September 2000]
5. Abdullah Al-Hourani, Chairman, Palestinian National Council Political Committee:
The conflict remains eternal - all of Israel is Palestine:
Interviewer: “How do read the future of the peace process...?” Al-Hourani: “Whether they return to negotiations or not, and whether they fulfill the agreements or not - the political plan is a temporary agreement, and the conflict remains eternal, will not be locked, and the agreements being talked about are regarding the current balance of power. As to the struggle, it will continue. It may pause at times, but in the final analysis, Palestine is ours from the [Mediterranean] Sea to the [Jordan] River.” [Al Hayat Al Jadida, 14 April 2000]
6. Imad Alfalugi, the Palestinian Authority Minister of Communication:
Israel “the Occupation State” will cease to exist:
“Our people have hope for the future, that the Occupation State ceases to exist, and that it makes no difference [how great] its power and arrogance...”.
[Minister of Communications, Imad Alfalugi, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18 November 1999]
7. Salim Alo’adia, Abu Salam, Supervisor of Political Affairs:
The goal has not changed - the “liberation of Palestine”
“When we picked up the gun in ’65 and the modern Palestinian Revolution began, it had a goal. This goal has not changed and it is the liberation of Palestine.”
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 20 January 2000]
8. Sheikh Ikrima Sabri, Palestinian Authority appointed Mufti of Jerusalem & Palestine:
We have not forgotten about Jaffa or about Acre
“We are discussing the current problems and when we speak about Jerusalem it doesn’t mean that we have forgotten about Hebron or about Jaffa or about Acre....we are speaking about the current problems that have priority at a certain time. It doesn’t mean that we have given up... We have announced a number of times that from a religious point of view Palestine from the sea to the river is Islamic.”
[PATV, 11 January 2001]
[Note: Jaffa and Acre are Israeli cities. The “sea to the river” is all of Israel.]
9. Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halbiah, a Palestinian Authority Religious leader, a member of the Palestinian Sharianic (Islamic religious law) Rulings Council, and Rector Advanced Studies, the Islamic University:
“All the agreements are temporary”
“We the nation of Palestine, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the Prophet Mohammed said: The resurrection of the dead will not come until you do battle with the Jews and kill them... We the Palestinians, are the vanguard in this issue, in this battle, whether we want to or whether we refuse. All the agreements being made are temporary...”
[Preacher Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halbiah, PATV, 28 July 2000]
10. Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, a Palestinian Authority religious leader:
“We will enter Jaffa, Ramle and Lod and all of Palestine, as conquerors.”
“We are positive that Allah will help us triumph. Our belief is firm that one day we will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, enter Jaffa as conquerors, Ramle and Lod... and all of Palestine, as conquerors... [ed. note: Jaffa, Ramle, and Lod are Israeli cities.] “If He [Allah] asks them [Arab leaders], on Judgment Day: ‘the majority of Palestine was lost in ’48 and what did you do? And the remainder was lost in ’67, and now it is being vanquished again.’ How shall we respond to our Lord?... “Palestine shall be the burial grounds of the invaders just as it was for the Tartars, and the Crusaders and for modern colonialism... The Tradition relates to us that Allah’s cherished one [Muhammad] said: ‘The Jews will battle against you but you shall emerge masters over them.”
[Preacher Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, PATV, 12 April 2002]
11. Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, a Palestinian Authority religious leader: “We will blow them up in Hadera, we will blow them up in Tel-Aviv”
“We will blow them up in Hadera, we will blow them up in Tel-Aviv and in Netanya... We will fight against them and rule over them until the Jew will hide behind the trees and stones and the tree and stone will say: 'Moslem! Servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him’... We will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, and Jaffa as conquerors, and Haifa as conquerors and Ashkelon as conquerors....”
[Preacher Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, PATV, 3 August 2001]
12. Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halbiah, a Palestinian Authority Religious leader:
“We will not forget Haifa, Acre, Jaffa, the Galilee Triangle, and the Negev”
“Even if agreements were signed [regarding] Gaza and the West Bank, we will not forget Haifa, Acre, Jaffa, the Galilee Triangle, and the Negev. It is only a question of time...”
[Preacher Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halbiah, PATV, 13 October 2000]
[Ed note: All are Israeli cities or regions.]
13. Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, PA religious leader:
Palestine shall return to its former days... Israel shall pass...
“Who is responsible for the loss of Palestine, the good land that the passages of the dear Koran bless many times, and [for] deceitfully labeling it Israel? Who is responsible for the loss of Jerusalem... The Prophet [Muhammad] soothes us with many Hadiths that Palestine shall return to its former days.... We must prepare a foothold, for the coming army of Allah, by divine predetermination. May it be Allah’s will, this oppressing state shall pass, Israel shall pass...”
[Preacher Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, PATV, 8 June 2001]
Conclusions:
What is clear from the Palestinians is that their goal of destroying Israel has never been abandoned. Indeed, the message from the Israeli and Palestinian leadership to their respective people are direct opposites of one another: Israel leaders are saying: The permanent status agreement will be painful, but we will accept it because it will mark the end of the conflict with the Palestinians and the Arab world in general. The Palestinian leaders are saying: The permanent status agreement will be painful, but we will accept it because it is not the end of the conflict. This is one stage leading to Israel’s destruction. The words of MK Abd-Al Malek Dahamshe constitute the conceptual basis for the Palestinian Authority’s policies: “We exaggerate when we say ‘peace’... what we are [really] speaking about is ‘Hudna’
Israel is committing all these crimes as an state, a state who was bred by britian colonialist and now being fed and brought up by US. I know a common jewesh civilian will never want these kind of brutal acts but they are failed to stop their crimnal minded Gov. and malitry, it means Israel is a state which is not in control even by its own people! A state which is not in control of its people and civilized world should not has the right to exist.
Naeem: "A state which is not in control of its people and civilized world should not has the right to exist."
Speaking of states not in control: Has Mr. Musharraf installed himself as Emporer for Life in Pakistan? Can he keep Islamist militants out of Kashmir? Or does he let them have some freedom to carry out their incursions so they don't turn on him?
How long can Mr. Musharraf hold on to office in this type of balancing act? He's fighting with India and radical factions within Pakistan.
If Musharraf were overthrown, Islamic radicals could take over. And that could lead to some bad consequences, like radicals with their hands on Pakistan's nuclear weapons.
If Musharraf were overthrown, Islamic radicals could take over. And that could lead to some bad consequences, like radicals with their hands on Pakistan's nuclear weapons.
precisely why the US should buttress Mush and give him all he needs to defeat the AQ and his internal Islamic extremists. The Indians are hoping that Mush will fail, some Mullah despot will take over, use Nukes on India. India is willing to sacrifice a city like Bombay - they then nuke Pakistan into oblivion and get to keep Kashmir.
Israel is an ally of the Hindoo right wingers in Delhi. It supports this scenario because it banks on Hindoo and nuclear India to emerge as the other flank against Iran.
When the people of Israel elected Adolf Sharon, they essentially proclaimed that Palestine should be destroyed.
Liitle boy bush tried to hide his head in the sand for as long as he could. The ME situation though is going to consume him - all this sidetracking with Iraq will work only so long.
The suicide bombers of Palestine are crucial to the whole global equation now. They are the only hope the Globe has. Adolf Sharon can be stopped only by the suicide bombers. More of them, more Israeli lives - and Sharon will back off.
The US will need to have Sharon replaced. The chaos subsides, the new leadership gets back to pre 1967 borders, the nation of Palestine is formed with Ashrawi as leader and everyone lives happily ever after.
The suicide bombers of Palestine are crucial to the whole global equation now. They are the only hope the Globe has. Adolf Sharon can be stopped only by the suicide bombers. More of them, more Israeli lives - and Sharon will back off.
If that is the attitude of the Palestinians then they must be destroyed.
One side has F-16s, Abrams tanks, missiles - and it uses these against civilians. The economic and military might of the US - in fact every US taxpayer - send money to Israel to equip itself with weapons to annihilate the people of Palestine.
The other side uses suicide bombs and largesse from oil rich Arabs.
your scenario will come true - if the suicide bombers fail. So all sensible humans must support and encourage the suicide bombers. Where can I send donations?
Look - the ME situation is costing the US way too much in a myriad of ways.
The question of Israel and its existence is no longer being argued. Except for a few over the edge Mullahs, the death to Israel chant has as much relevance as little boy bush claiming to protect trees.
Arafat has been marginalized and a new leadership will emerge - if extremists like Sharon are also sent packing.
If the US cuts some slack to the Palestine people, kicks out the fat cat NYC settlers and re-proposes the deal Clinton brokered, the Palestinians will go for it. Once the nation of Palestine comes into being, the process of building it up will consume them. Israel can return to normalcy - be vigilant - and even help in establishing the institutions the new nation will require.
Israel has to back off and make some positive gestures.
"Israel has to back off and make some positive gestures."
Israel will not back off unless they are assured that the suicide bombings will stop. Meanwhile, if they have a lead on a suicide bomber, they will hunt them down.
They can't stop. Then the terrorists learn that what they need to do to wring concessions out of the Israelis is wire up young men and women and send them into a crowd to blow themselves up and take as many innocent people as they can.
And if the Israelis show a weakness in their resolve, the demands and the suicide bombings will never end.
The bombings have tailed off. It appears the two sides are getting tired of this cycle for awhile, but historically, that seems the time Israeli's should get nervous. The nearer a substantive agreement the more likely it is a bomber finds a place for himself in a crowd.
I agree, that's why the Isralies ought to be given free reign to remove the terrorist Palestinians from Israel or the face of the earth.
Does Israel has rights to exist anymore after committing these crimes against humanity!
Amercian must stop supporting baby killers
Your the one supporting the murder of children by supporting palestine
You know what the difference is between the Israelies and Palestinians ? One marches in the street by the thousands and celebrates innocent civilian death and sends their own children happily to do it. The other side apologizes if it happens, even has some of their own people protesting their actions and still allows them to stay in the country and not remove all of them.
The Palestinians have lost massive support with their terroristic tactics. They ought to be booted out of Gaza, the W.B, etc. They keep losing it every time they purposely blow up another kid.
Israel has to back off and make some positive gestures.
For there to be real peace there must be an immediate and honest change in the mindset of Arab Nations. They must Accept Israel fully, should unilaterally announce full relations with Israel and must destroy the terrorists and terrorist networks within their lands.
However, I don't believe the goal of Pan-Arabia is either democracy or peace with Israel.
On a different note I find it amazing how the Green-leftists are uniting against America. Spoiled and stupid brats they all are. Do they know nothing of the history of the world? Do they see environmental and human rights progress in 3rd world dictatorships?
Leftist socialists would prefer that the whole world be like Africa, the Middle East and the rest of the 3rd world. You can spout your Peace, Green, anti-America BS only because the West CREATES freedom from the normal way of things--which is warlord chaos, tyrants and despots.
In their quest for 'peace' they accept slavery and servitude.. In their quest for 'justice' they bash America and Israel and embrace Arabia, Arafat and Saddam, Syria. I won't even start about the 'Human Rights' commision.
I'm angry at the bashing the US gets from the 3rd world. Especially the recent meeting in South Africa. I remember the same thing happened a year ago before 9-11. Do you know which countries are currntly on the UN Human Rights Commission?
I discern very little difference between the maniacal suicide bombers and the F-16 firing, Tank crushing, Uzi wielding , civilian massacring Sharon brigade.
The attack on the WTC was terrorism - a peaceful America going about its work and full of innocent toiling parents was set upon by a gang of zealots. Americans were not pursuing the AQ and machine gunning them down.
Every Israeli male is a soldier and is involved in defence of his country. They have to serve compulsorily and kill Palestinians. The entire Israeli populace is required to be engaged in the war against Palestine. Settlers occupy lands and arm theselves with Uzis and threaten those they deem enemies. The people of Palestine fight back with stones and sticks and suicide bombers.
These two are countries at war - like India and Pakistan , Turkey and Greece, Russia and Chechnya. There is no terrorism involved when two countries decide to go to war with each other. And in war, land mines, tanks, bombs are the implements. Wars involve killing.
Israel already has the advantage of an endless supply of arms and money from the US taxpayers. Why do they not fight their war with Palestine like soldiers , instead of moaning like wimps about the methods used.
I discern very little difference between the maniacal suicide bombers and the F-16 firing, Tank crushing, Uzi wielding , civilian massacring Sharon brigade.
That's why we will never understand you're take on this issue.
Israel already has the advantage of an endless supply of arms and money from the US taxpayers. Why do they not fight their war with Palestine like soldiers , instead of moaning like wimps about the methods used.
What ? They do fight it like soilders and that means using the tools you have. I''m sure if you were being fired on you'd say "naw, call off that tank I'm gonna go storm that building by myself that I'm taking fire from, just like rambo". Works great,,,,,,in the movies. Yes I'm sure you wouldn't, right, just as the Pals wouldn't if they had it. Do the Palestinains wear uniforms to distinguish themselvs from civilians. Nope. And for your info we DO send aid to Palestine. Ararat steals it. They have plenty of money and it dissapears into the P.A's bank accounts. And they have more than sticks and stones, they have kalishnikov's a.k's and anti tank weapons. Instead of targeting the soilders they target a mother taking her child to a seder celebration. Brave warriors that they are.
"Killing civilians cannot be justified under any circumstanses."
It's the unfortunate result of war, Peter. Civilians die. Deliberate killing cannot be justified, but sometimes it's unavoidable. The object of war is to kill the enemy and break their stuff.
"If one does kill civilians or orders killing civilians, he should carry personal, not collective responsibility. "
That seems fair. Now the Palistinians should dress in uniforms so the combatants can be identified. And they should stop hiding out among civilians. They put innocent people in danger.
And stop sacrificing children for their disgusting murder. It's cowardly.
But when a murderer kills someone, he also hides amongst civilians and does not wear an "I'm a killer" sign
That's true and murders are exactly what the Palestinian suicide bombers are.
Soilders wear uniforms. I would be happy to donate some blaze orange uniforms with sirens and flashing lights on their helmets for the Palestinians.
It's up to the police to find him and provide sufficient proof that he is the murderer. If there is not enough proof for accusing anyone, the case is left aside. It's better to leave a criminal unpunished than to punish an innocent person.
So someone should have just called the cops on Hitler ? Here's something you may not know, the army does try to capture these thugs and they then go to trial. It's too big a job for the police alone to handle. It's naieve to think that it's easy as calling the police.
Israeli forces kill four in Gaza
http://www.dawn.com/2002/08/30/top18.htm
GAZA CITY, Aug 29: Four members of a Palestinian family were killed by Israeli tank shells in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, sending another shockwave through an already fragile plan to ease tensions between the sides.
Israeli tanks stormed the Sheikh Ajleen neighbourhood of Gaza City shortly after Wednesday midnight, killing Rueida al-Hajeen, 55, her sons Ashraf, 22, and Nuhad, 17, as well as her nephew, Mohammad, 17, Palestinian medical sources said.
Palestinian ambulances rushed to the scene but were barred by the Israeli army from rescuing the injured.
this is what happens when a man or a State become an evil monster.
http://www.ripsawnews.com/2002-08-28/contents.html
APARTHEID FOR THE NEW GENERATION
...Palestinians can have their homes demolished for “security reasons.” Oftentimes this means that your house is built on a hill, you have a nice lawn, and the army would like to turn it into a new base. In Qualqilya a whole neighborhood was rounded up at night, the men and women forced to squat on the ground for 13 hours as each house was systematically searched for “weapons.” Since no weapons were found, the soldiers decided to ransack many of the houses, shooting holes in the walls, smashing furniture and tipping over dressers. By the end of the day at least a dozen houses had been damaged, several had been demolished and one man was shot-dead in the head through the window as he stood making coffee for his family.
I asked the soldiers that stood below the window why they had shot the man. One told me he was a terrorist. One said he didn’t know about it. The third said it had never happened. I pointed to the trail of blood that was running all the way down the steps and into the street.
“It never happened?” I asked him again. “It never happened?” He turned and lit a cigarette.
Life is cheap in the West Bank. Having witnessed a suicide attack against several Israelis in Jerusalem, I was familiar with the flurry of activity that follows—the sealing off of the block, the swarm of soldiers and snipers, the press and the volunteer medical committees. On the Palestinian side it’s different. After a civilian is shot the army stands outside your house and smokes cigarettes. There is no media coverage and there are no international statements condemning the attack. If the curfew is on, the victim’s family is not even able to leave the house in order to bury the dead; they must keep the corpse indoors until the army announces that people can leave their homes. This will happen on any given day in any city in the West Bank and Gaza.
Yes, there is violence committed on both sides, and each time the result is terrible. But there is a difference between the violence committed by groups of desperate Palestinians who see no other alternative and the systematic violence committed by the fourth largest military power in the world. Israel receives 18 million US tax dollars every day, the majority of which is used to purchase weapons to sustain an illegal military occupation that has lasted 35 years. It is an occupation that, instead of providing security, feeds the region’s appetite for violence...
"But i am reading something different stories on press in these days about the treatment of American law enforcement agencies with Pakistanis in US! they are being arrested and tortured by FBI and other agencies after 911. "
Pakistani or native-born American, arrest and torture is part of daily life in the United States, Naeem. It happens to everyone.
Don't come here, the place is an insane asylum. I live in constant fear of arrest and torture.
Naeem Siddiqui 8/30/02 3:49am
Naeem,
The difference bteween the Palestinains and the Israelies. Palestinians celebrate by the thousands at the death of Isralie Children they intentiuonally target. The Isralies don't, some even protest and some apologize for it since it was a non intended target. Intent goes a long way. A Hamas idiot was quoted as saying he's going to make Isralie citizens pay for that. Guess all the Palestinains will have another chance to party and celebrate the intended death of children.
Contrary to your assesment or failure to adrress part of the question. I can tell you that if our aid stopped today to Israel. Our influence wouldn't mean much, they'd kick every Palestinan out of Israel. We have restrained them many times from doing just that or close to it. WE ALSO GIVE AID TO THE PALESTINIANS WHICH SEEMS TO BE OVERLOOKED. Of course Arafat steals it so perhaps we should end that too. Fine, we'll end aid to Israel Naeem. See how long it takes before Israel takes out every enemy unfettered. I don't think you'd like the results.
In conjunction with a vintage WWII air show, Paul Tibbets is in town this weekend.
He's the pilot of the Enola Gay, the B-29 that dropped the A-bomb on Hiroshima.
Commenting on his "autograph-signing" appearance, Duluth's Reader Weekly had this to say:
"Ever since then he's made a virtual career out of going around and announcing he still doesn't regret it. We civilians who feel guilty about running over a squirrel and overfeeding the goldfish shudder with admiration at his ability to conquer self-doubt."
Being a progressive community, there'll be a protest, heartily endorsed by a former U.S. sailor with quite a story.
Edward L. Stayton, 77, of Cromwell, MN, was a fireman 1st class on a Navy destroyer in the Pacific during WWII. On Sept, 1, 1945, he and fellow shipmates went ashore at Nagasaki, to liberate 700 U.S. and Dutch Indonesian POWs held near the city.
He arrived three weeks after Nagasaki had been nuked.
"They say the bombs helped end the war, but at what cost? Mr. Tibbets has his view on the importance of the Bomb, but I was there. The day we dropped anchor at Nagasaki
was a watershed moment in my life.
"I remember clearly the corpse of a child -- probably three years old -- floating upside down, bloated and barbecued, in the harbor. I remember streets piled high with charred bones and heaps of human remains. I will never forget that for all eternity.
"From that point on I was no longer a bright-eyed patriot, willing to turn my conscience over to the government. Wars are unconscionable. They are hell on earth. And it is a crime to to use the lives of children to win them."
A vigil on behalf of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki victims (plus the people of the Marshall Islands, U.S. atomic veterans, and all those poisoned by nuclear testing) will take place tonight at Airport and Haines Roads, sponsored by Northland Action for Peace and Justice, Grandmothers for Peace, and Loaves & Fishes community.
Participants will also make known their united opposition to attacking Iraq.
http://jamesglaser.org
SO, YOU'RE THINKING OF JOINING UP, HUH?
So you've got that patriotic urge and want to save the world from terrorists and all the "Evil Doers" the President has been pointing his finger at. Noble thought no doubt, but maybe just a little more thinking should be put in, before you sign on that dotted line.
I did that one time, I mean putting my name on that dotted line and that was over thirty years ago and I am still paying the price. I had that same patriotic urge, except it wasn't terrorists I wanted to stop, I wanted to stop Communist aggression from engulfing those democratic loving people in Vietnam. After the dastardly attack on our American ships in the Gulf of Tonkin what true American boy wouldn't run down and sign up?
Well there never was an attack on those ships and the President of the United States, my President, Lyndon Baines Johnson already knew that we were going to lose that war and said so on tapes, those tapes were made before I signed up, but just made public now. He just forgot to tell the rest of us we were going to lose and another 30.000+ young men gave their lives for Patriotism...
THE PATRIOT GAME
Oh, the bugler calls again, and flags are waving
as the young men march away from hearth and home
For the cause of "righteousness" requires saving
from the "demons" far across the frothing foam.
There are women on the sidelines wracked with weeping
who have babies in their arms, so unaware
And a cheering crowd, awake, but really sleeping
that believes the callous lies that brought it there.
In the background dogs of war are darkly prowling
while the clerics pray to God to intervene
And a wind begins to rise in gusts of howling
with a smell like dying dreams and kerosene.
Where the politicians rave, there is no reason
where the rich men smile, there is no sacred truth
Just the advent of another bloody season
and the sacrifice of callow, trusting youth.
Posted on Sun, Sep. 01, 2002
Civil liberties compromised in the name of patriotism
What have your neighbors been doing lately? Noticed anything suspicious? In the past, if your neighbors were acting funny, you had only the tired old strategies of asking them, "What's up?" or peeking at them from behind the curtains.
But now -- O brave new world! -- there is a national government office charged with collecting and processing neighbors' reports about neighbors, bus-drivers' reports about suspicious passengers, and the like. This office came into being in January 2002 and was supposed to be fully functioning by "late summer 2002," which is now. So I guess we can all sleep a little more soundly at night.
TIPS, or Terrorism Information and Prevention System, is one of the initiatives of President Bush's Citizen Corps, and we are all invited to join. Should we? TIPS will be "providing a centralized telephone hot line and Web-based reporting system that automatically and immediately routes tips to appropriate federal, state and local law enforcement nationwide" (see the official and informative Web site at
www.citizencorps.gov).
Now let's think about this for a minute. In an ideal case, what alarms one neighbor about another is something real, threatening and TIP-worthy. Neighbor 1 reports Neighbor 2, and a terrible disaster is averted. But life seldom presents us with ideal cases. A more likely scenario is that Neighbors 1 and 2 just don't get along. Neighbor 2 reports neighbor 1 for a bad reason, perhaps motivated by an errant pet or too much tuba practice. Let's follow the possible history of this pseudo-TIP in our post-9/11 democracy: Day 1: Too much tuba, too little pet cleanup; the report is phoned in via the hot line, and Neighbor 1's name is routed "immediately and automatically" to law enforcement agencies nationwide.
Day 2: While neighbor 1 is at work, FBI agents covertly search her house and plant recording devices in her computer and telephone. (You think this isn't legal? You are an optimist indeed! It has been perfectly OK since the passage of the USA Patriot Act of December 2001, which permits "sneak and peek" search and surveillance, in which the target is not informed.) Day 3: Neighbor 2's Russian grandmother calls and they have a quick conversation in Russian, consisting entirely of complaints and consolations about old age. This conversation is recorded and replayed many times in an FBI regional office, but no one on duty speaks Russian. Neighbor 2 is arrested on the bus that afternoon. (She can be held without immediate charges if the reason is "intelligence-related," thanks to our post-9/11 world of expanded government powers.)
Day 4: Neighbor 2's son, away at college, has been taking courses on Islamic culture, as the local police discover upon searching his confidential student records. (Also quite legal since the Patriot Act.) He is detained for questioning. His summer job in a chemistry lab adds to his aura of suspicion. Information about him is distributed nationwide, and a security-risk tag is affixed to his file. He will never find this out, but will always wonder why he finds it so hard to get jobs.
Day 5: Released after her questioning, neighbor 2 returns home to find her noncitizen Russian immigrant husband has been detained by INS and is scheduled for a deportation hearing. He is being held without charges, and she cannot communicate with him (also legal thanks to the Patriot Act).
Day 6: Neighbor 3 informs Neighbor 2 that it was nasty old neighbor 1 who started all this with the false report to TIPS. Neighbor 2 either collapses in a heap or begins to plan her revenge ... not a beautiful day in this neighborhood!
Does this sound unrealistic? Unfortunately it is quite a possible scenario in our nation today. Many, many of our basic civil liberties have been compromised, in the interests of expanding government power over citizens. So much secret government activity has been sanctioned that Dan Burton, Republican chairman of the House Government Reform Committee, has said, "An iron veil is descending over the executive branch." The TIPS Web site lists "Frequently Asked Questions," and one of them is, "Will I receive an ID, plaque or proof of my volunteer status?" This question is either very scary, very sad or both.
Last Sept. 11, the United States suffered a devastating blow from outside. Since that time, our civil liberties have been steadily eroded from the inside. Which is the more tragic harm: one that destroys lives and buildings, or one that destroys the noblest political system our planet has known?
--EVE BROWNING, associate professor in the Philosophy Department at the University of Minnesota Duluth.
Please show me where any of this is legal under this act (which was approved by the senate with a count of 98-1) without first showing probable cause and receiving a court order.
Has probable cause and a court order eliminated unnecessary searches and seizures in the past, Dan?
If the answer is "no" can you safely assume that new laws and new activity could bring about new abuses?
What's the Senate vote got to do with it? It seems the right is a fairly suspicious type when it comes to government, particularly a Senate that votes 98 -1 for anything.
Are you one of those types who figure that if a guy is sitting in the police car, he's guilty?
Come on Rick, you know that this act does nothing close to what Dennis' opinion piece claims. You know that piece is full of half truths and outright lies, but it is against something that President Bush wants so it is alright with you and your left wing extremist marching orders.
What's the Senate vote got to do with it?
All of those folks that you praise voted for it but one, yet you some how you want to put all the blame for this act onto Bush. Pretty extreme attempt to attack the president even in your eyes, isn't it?
I find it sad that this is one of the few things that the Democrats have done to help fight terrorism and yet they try to give all the credit to President Bush. Sort of takes away what they can answer when asked what they have done to fight terrorism.
Are you one of those types who figure that if a guy is sitting in the police car, he's guilty?
Of course not, but you have proven that if President Bush wants something that you think it is wrong - even if all but one of your favorites in the senate voted for it. Wellstone, Daschle, Dayton, Kennedy, Lieberman, etc. all voted for it. Are you telling me that Wellstone is a bad person now? How about Lieberman and the others? Are they now terrible people that you will be asking people to vote against as well or are you just too partisan and only concerned with President Bush and Republicans? Does it not matter to you what your extremist liberal Democrats do as long as they are not Republican by name? So sad.
By the way, you forgot to work Rush into your attempt to discredit my question. Try harder next time.
Maybe you could point out where I even mentioned George Bush or that I was even necessarily against this, Dan.
Here's my real concerns, and these questions evidently slipped by you:
Has probable cause and a court order eliminated unnecessary searches and seizures in the past, Dan?
If the answer is "no" can you safely assume that new laws and new activity could bring about new abuses?
Now, are those the questions of an extremist nature, Dan?
I've turned off talk radio, so I probably won't know in the future if you are parroting Limbaugh or not. But it's plain to see for someone who claims to dislike political parties, you never lose sight of who's a Democrat and who's a Republican.
I dont know what you'd do without them,
http://www.yellowtimes.org/images/kirwan/kirwan02.jpg
UNDER COVER OF DARKNESS...
The Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft, blithe, unapologetic, semen-dripping rape of Miss Liberty ought to make every American -- especially those who've expressed worries about endangered freedom in previous contexts -- stand up in staunch, unified outrage.
Where are the gun-rights advocates when real governmental Gestapo
tactics become the NORM?
Where are the voices that decried Ruby Ridge and Waco?
Does the Right only concern itself with Constitutional threats when
they cut their way?
I guess so, since conservatives were the ones behind
America's worst periods of repression -- the Palmer Raids, McCarthyism, and COINTELPRO.
AND the current travesties allegedly associated with "combatting
terrorism", but actually intended to impose conformity by chilling dissent.
I've always maintained there's precious little difference between
U.S. rightwingers and outright, historical fascists.
Both are prepared to destroy democracy to try to preserve unhindered
plutocratic privilege.
I can see where a woman like EVE BROWNING, associate professor in the Philosophy Department at the University of Minnesota Duluth might be concerned about her freedoms.
Lynne Cheney, -- the woman who eats dinner with the Vice President every night -- belongs to an organization that compiled a list of 40 college professors who said things that her outfit didn't like.
Republicans really don't care much for college professors, unless it's the good kind like Dick Armey, Phil Gramm and Newt Gingrich. Maybe she's worried about getting on The List.
It all starts with a List.
Maybe you could point out where I even mentioned George Bush or that I was even necessarily against this, Dan.
Gee, I guess you did not have the president in mind when commenting on my questioning of Dennis' post which mentions President Bush by name. How silly of me.
Now, are those the questions of an extremist nature, Dan?
They are when they are meant to discredit a valid question to Dennis that neither of you care to answer.
I've turned off talk radio, so I probably won't know in the future if you are parroting Limbaugh or not.
You have never shown where I have ever parroted anyone, so please do not make that claim.
But it's plain to see for someone who claims to dislike political parties, you never lose sight of who's a Democrat and who's a Republican.
Yes, I have been pushed towards the Republicans by the extreme politics of the democrats and that is just one of the reasons that I hate the party system that we have. Look at the people on these boards. People like you and Dennis who look at anything that the current president does as being the end of the world and anything that a democrat does as being inspired by god.
Our current president is not perfect, but who is? He most definitely is not the devil in human form as many have tried to portray him as though.
And after all this posting to try to portray yourself as middle of the road, you go on to talk about Dick Cheney's wife and Dennis just ignores my question prefering to talk about "dripping semen".
By the way, Hillary is also a member of the same organization that you speak of. Maybe this power hungry person is the one responsible for the list that you speak of.
http://www.dawn.com/2002/09/03/top6.htm
Asked in an interview with CNN how he would respond if the United States asked to put more troops in Pakistan, Gen Musharraf replied: "US troops? No, I don't think that would be wise at all.
"We are fully involved in this act. We don't need assistance. We will ask for assistance if we require it. I think our forces are capable of meeting whatever is required in Pakistan."
ATTACK ON IRAQ: Pakistan is not "at all" interested in joining efforts to topple Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, President Musharraf said.
He warned that too many Muslim countries were being targeted in military operationsand equated efforts to remove Saddam Hussein with yet another attack on a Muslim country.
"At the moment all the political disputes, all the military action, all the casualties, the suffering, are by the Muslims around the world, because all the political disputes involve Muslims unfortunately," he said.
"And more unfortunately Muslims happen to be at the receiving end every year. Therefore another ... action against a Muslim country will certainly have its impact."
The army chief also said there was "no point" in Islamabad providing any kind of support to a military strike on Iraq.
I think its good idea to keep ourselves away from the madness of Bush and his dumb hawks
Peter,
First of all your conspiracy theories are just that, theories with absolutely ZERO facts to back it up. Try using some, heck, any facts. The attacks were planned for years and through 2 presidents. The intelligence failures were because we stripped our intell community of many of the tools needed including not paying people who are bad guys. A bad idea in my book, if there's a bad guy who can help save thousands of lives we should do it but we didn't so we weren't payrolling bad guys. The policy created years ago failed. Not the people, they did what they could and with the resources they had.
You claim you would call for your leaders resignation. Do you do so whenever something happens that's out of his control ? Here's the thing you fail miserebly to see or admit. If someone is willing to die to attack you there's really nothing you can do about it or stop them all, you can take precautions but unless you close your society you will never stop all of them if they are willing to die doing so. Take a look at Israel for proof of that, they know the attacks are coming and still can't stop them becasue people are willing to blow themselves and you up all in the name of religion. Nice try Peter, try some facts next time o.k.
For those that still wonder if the Palestinians don't want to see Israel even exist as they've said in the past here you go. And they're supposed to negotiate with those who want Israel to not even exist? All the while intentionally killing thier civilians. So hmm yea they should appease the terrorists. Right.
Palestinian Goal is Destruction of Israel in Stages
By Itamar Marcus
Introduction:
Israeli Chief of Staff Ayalon caused a political stir this week by announcing that the Palestinian Authority plan is to destroy Israel in stages, through the implementation of the Oslo Accords.
His professional assessment based on military intelligence analysis confirms the findings in a PMW report published last year which documents some of the numerous statements made by Palestinian political leaders in Arabic, including Faisal Husseini, which lead to the same conclusion. These include explicit statements in Arabic that the purpose of Oslo is to destroy Israel.
As a service to our readers we are redistributing this report.
PMW Special Report No. 31 [updated - May 2002]
Is the Palestinian Goal
  A Peace Agreement or “Hudna” [cease fire]?
Written by
Itamar Marcus, Director
Executive Summary:
Israeli Arab Knesset Member Abd-Al Malek Dahamshe was interviewed on Palestinian Television. A viewer called in to the studio and commented that, “Our problem with Israel is not a border problem, but one of existence”. Dahamshe responded: “We exaggerate when we say ‘peace’... what we are [really] speaking about is ‘Hudna’”.
[Israeli Arab Knesset Member Abd-Al Malek Dahamshe, PATV, 1 September 2000]
“Hudna” is an Islamic term meaning cease fire. MK Dahamshe accepted the position expressed by the caller, by referring to the agreements with Israel not as “Peace” but rather as a cease fire.
This report investigates to what extent this position of Dahamshe reflects the position of the Palestinian Authority. When Palestinian officials speak to their own people in Arabic, do they anticipate that a permanent agreement with Israel will be peace agreement ending the conflict with Israel, or that it is just a “Hudna” a temporary cease fire?
Findings:
The research demonstrates a clear and unified world-view within the Palestinian leadership, in speeches to the nation, in educational programs, and through school textbooks published by the Palestinian Authority. Consistently Israel is defined as a colony that stole the land of “Palestine” having no right to exist. Therefore within the framework of the “justice”, there is no room for Israel’s permanent existence. The Arabic Palestinian lexicon contains many expressions to describe the negotiations with Israel in this context: “The permanent agreement is a stage”; “The Oslo accord is to gain a foothold”; “All the agreements are temporary”. In this context the Oslo process is part of the process of liberating “Palestine”. The recurrent justification given for the need for a temporary agreement with Israel is “because of current balance of power”. From the positions expressed within the Palestinian Authority it is evident that Dahamshe’s position whereby the permanent status agreement with Israel is to be viewed as “Hudna”, is the rule and not the exception.
The following are a few examples where PA leaders have stated this explicitly.
1. Faisal Husseini, Palestinian Authority Representative for Jerusalem Affairs:
Oslo accords are a Trojan Horse:
“Had the U.S. and Israel realized, before Oslo, that all that was left of the Palestinian National movement and the Pan-Arab movement was a wooden horse called Arafat or the PLO, they would never have opened their fortified gates and let it inside their walls...
This effort [the Intifada] could have been much better, broader, and more significant had we made it clearer to ourselves that the Oslo agreement, or any other agreement, is just a temporary procedure, or just a step towards something bigger... We distinguish the strategic, long-term goals from the political phased goals, which we are compelled to temporarily accept due to international pressure. ... [Palestine] according to the higher strategy [is]: ‘from the river to the sea.’ Palestine in its entirety is an Arab land, the land of the Arab nation.”
[Al-Arabi' -Egypt, 24 June 2001]
2. Abd El Aziz Shahian, Palestinian Authority Minister of Supplies:
Oslo is just the first step in the destruction of Israel:
“The Palestinian people accepted the Oslo agreements as a first step and not as a permanent settlement, based on the premise that the war and struggle in the land is more efficient than a struggle from a distant land [i.e. Tunisia, where the PLO was based before Oslo -Ed] ... the Palestinian people will continue the revolution until they achieve the goals of the ’65 revolution...”.
[P.A. Minister of Supply Abd El Aziz Shahian, Al Ayyam, 30 May 2000]
[The “’65 Revolution” is the founding of the P.L.O. and the publication of the Palestinian charter that calls for the destruction of Israel via an armed struggle.]
3. Othman Abu Arbiah, Arafat’s Deputy:
The Palestinian state is just the first stage:
“... At this stage we’ll prevail in our struggle [toward] the goals of the stages [plan]. The goal of this stage is the establishment of the independent Palestinian State, with its capital in Jerusalem. When we achieve this, it will be a positive [step] and it will advance us to the next stage via other ways and means... ‘Every Palestinian must know clearly and unequivocally that the independent Palestinian State, with Jerusalem as its capital is not the end of the road’. The [rise of] the Palestinian State is a stage after which there will be another stage and that is the democratic state in all of Palestine [i.e. in place of Israel].”
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 25 November 1999]
[Othman Abu Arbiah is Arafat’s aide for Political Guidance and national affairs, and the Director-General for National Affairs, a senior position in the Palestinian national educational structure]
4. Sheikh Yousuf Abu Sneina, the preacher of the Al-Aqza Mosque:
All of Israel is “Palestine” forever:
“The Islamic land of Palestine is one and can not be divided.
There is no difference between Haifa and Nablus, between Lod and Ramallah, between Jerusalem and Nazareth, between Gaza and Ashkelon.
The land of Palestine is Waqf land that belongs to Moslems throughout the world and no one has the right to act freely or the right to make concessions or to abandon her. Whoever does this betrays a [trust] and is nothing more than a loathsome criminal whose abode is in Hell!”
[The Preacher of Al Aqza Mosque, Sheikh Yousuf Abu Sneina,
PATV, 8 September 2000]
5. Abdullah Al-Hourani, Chairman, Palestinian National Council Political Committee:
The conflict remains eternal - all of Israel is Palestine:
Interviewer: “How do read the future of the peace process...?”
Al-Hourani: “Whether they return to negotiations or not, and whether they fulfill the agreements or not - the political plan is a temporary agreement, and the conflict remains eternal, will not be locked, and the agreements being talked about are regarding the current balance of power. As to the struggle, it will continue. It may pause at times, but in the final analysis, Palestine is ours from the [Mediterranean] Sea to the [Jordan] River.”
[Al Hayat Al Jadida, 14 April 2000]
6. Imad Alfalugi, the Palestinian Authority Minister of Communication:
Israel “the Occupation State” will cease to exist:
“Our people have hope for the future, that the Occupation State ceases to exist, and that it makes no difference [how great] its power and arrogance...”.
[Minister of Communications, Imad Alfalugi,
Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18 November 1999]
7. Salim Alo’adia, Abu Salam, Supervisor of Political Affairs:
The goal has not changed - the “liberation of Palestine”
“When we picked up the gun in ’65 and the modern Palestinian Revolution began, it had a goal. This goal has not changed and it is the liberation of Palestine.”
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 20 January 2000]
8. Sheikh Ikrima Sabri, Palestinian Authority appointed Mufti of Jerusalem & Palestine:
We have not forgotten about Jaffa or about Acre
“We are discussing the current problems and when we speak about Jerusalem it doesn’t mean that we have forgotten about Hebron or about Jaffa or about Acre....we are speaking about the current problems that have priority at a certain time. It doesn’t mean that we have given up... We have announced a number of times that from a religious point of view Palestine from the sea to the river is Islamic.”
[PATV, 11 January 2001]
[Note: Jaffa and Acre are Israeli cities. The “sea to the river” is all of Israel.]
9. Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halbiah, a Palestinian Authority Religious leader, a member of the Palestinian Sharianic (Islamic religious law) Rulings Council, and Rector Advanced Studies, the Islamic University:
“All the agreements are temporary”
“We the nation of Palestine, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the Prophet Mohammed said: The resurrection of the dead will not come until you do battle with the Jews and kill them... We the Palestinians, are the vanguard in this issue, in this battle, whether we want to or whether we refuse. All the agreements being made are temporary...”
[Preacher Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halbiah, PATV, 28 July 2000]
10. Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, a Palestinian Authority religious leader:
“We will enter Jaffa, Ramle and Lod and all of Palestine, as conquerors.”
“We are positive that Allah will help us triumph. Our belief is firm that one day we will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, enter Jaffa as conquerors, Ramle and Lod... and all of Palestine, as conquerors... [ed. note: Jaffa, Ramle, and Lod are Israeli cities.]
“If He [Allah] asks them [Arab leaders], on Judgment Day: ‘the majority of Palestine was lost in ’48 and what did you do? And the remainder was lost in ’67, and now it is being vanquished again.’ How shall we respond to our Lord?...
“Palestine shall be the burial grounds of the invaders just as it was for the Tartars, and the Crusaders and for modern colonialism... The Tradition relates to us that Allah’s cherished one [Muhammad] said: ‘The Jews will battle against you but you shall emerge masters over them.”
[Preacher Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, PATV, 12 April 2002]
11. Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, a Palestinian Authority religious leader:
“We will blow them up in Hadera, we will blow them up in Tel-Aviv”
“We will blow them up in Hadera, we will blow them up in Tel-Aviv and in Netanya... We will fight against them and rule over them until the Jew will hide behind the trees and stones and the tree and stone will say: 'Moslem! Servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him’... We will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, and Jaffa as conquerors, and Haifa as conquerors and Ashkelon as conquerors....”
[Preacher Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, PATV, 3 August 2001]
12. Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halbiah, a Palestinian Authority Religious leader:
“We will not forget Haifa, Acre, Jaffa, the Galilee Triangle, and the Negev”
“Even if agreements were signed [regarding] Gaza and the West Bank, we will not forget Haifa, Acre, Jaffa, the Galilee Triangle, and the Negev. It is only a question of time...”
[Preacher Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halbiah, PATV, 13 October 2000]
[Ed note: All are Israeli cities or regions.]
13. Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, PA religious leader:
Palestine shall return to its former days... Israel shall pass...
“Who is responsible for the loss of Palestine, the good land that the passages of the dear Koran bless many times, and [for] deceitfully labeling it Israel? Who is responsible for the loss of Jerusalem... The Prophet [Muhammad] soothes us with many Hadiths that Palestine shall return to its former days.... We must prepare a foothold, for the coming army of Allah, by divine predetermination. May it be Allah’s will, this oppressing state shall pass, Israel shall pass...”
[Preacher Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, PATV, 8 June 2001]
Conclusions:
What is clear from the Palestinians is that their goal of destroying Israel has never been abandoned. Indeed, the message from the Israeli and Palestinian leadership to their respective people are direct opposites of one another:
Israel leaders are saying:
The permanent status agreement will be painful, but we will accept it because it will mark the end of the conflict with the Palestinians and the Arab world in general.
The Palestinian leaders are saying:
The permanent status agreement will be painful, but we will accept it because it is not the end of the conflict. This is one stage leading to Israel’s destruction.
The words of MK Abd-Al Malek Dahamshe constitute the conceptual basis for the Palestinian Authority’s policies:
“We exaggerate when we say ‘peace’...
what we are [really] speaking about is ‘Hudna’
Does Israel has rights to exist anymore after committing these crimes against humanity!
Amercian must stop supporting baby killers
Israel is committing all these crimes as an state, a state who was bred by britian colonialist and now being fed and brought up by US. I know a common jewesh civilian will never want these kind of brutal acts but they are failed to stop their crimnal minded Gov. and malitry, it means Israel is a state which is not in control even by its own people! A state which is not in control of its people and civilized world should not has the right to exist.
Naeem:
"A state which is not in control of its people and civilized world should not has the right to exist."
Speaking of states not in control: Has Mr. Musharraf installed himself as Emporer for Life in Pakistan? Can he keep Islamist militants out of Kashmir? Or does he let them have some freedom to carry out their incursions so they don't turn on him?
How long can Mr. Musharraf hold on to office in this type of balancing act? He's fighting with India and radical factions within Pakistan.
If Musharraf were overthrown, Islamic radicals could take over. And that could lead to some bad consequences, like radicals with their hands on Pakistan's nuclear weapons.
What needs to happen is an all out war between Israelis and Palestinians and get it over with already.
What needs to happen is an all out war between Israelis and Palestinians and get it over with already.
That won't settle it either, Jethro.
Short of wiping each other out, they'll continue fighting.
Well if one side or the other is annihilated it might.
Rick 9/5/02 7:27am-
If Musharraf were overthrown, Islamic radicals could take over. And that could lead to some bad consequences, like radicals with their hands on Pakistan's nuclear weapons.
precisely why the US should buttress Mush and give him all he needs to defeat the AQ and his internal Islamic extremists. The Indians are hoping that Mush will fail, some Mullah despot will take over, use Nukes on India. India is willing to sacrifice a city like Bombay - they then nuke Pakistan into oblivion and get to keep Kashmir.
Israel is an ally of the Hindoo right wingers in Delhi. It supports this scenario because it banks on Hindoo and nuclear India to emerge as the other flank against Iran.
The Palestinians were far fron annihilated.
When the people of Israel elected Adolf Sharon, they essentially proclaimed that Palestine should be destroyed.
Liitle boy bush tried to hide his head in the sand for as long as he could. The ME situation though is going to consume him - all this sidetracking with Iraq will work only so long.
The suicide bombers of Palestine are crucial to the whole global equation now. They are the only hope the Globe has. Adolf Sharon can be stopped only by the suicide bombers. More of them, more Israeli lives - and Sharon will back off.
The US will need to have Sharon replaced. The chaos subsides, the new leadership gets back to pre 1967 borders, the nation of Palestine is formed with Ashrawi as leader and everyone lives happily ever after.
If the PLO would not have resorted to terrorism maybe Sharon would not have been elected.
The suicide bombers of Palestine are crucial to the whole global equation now. They are the only hope the Globe has. Adolf Sharon can be stopped only by the suicide bombers. More of them, more Israeli lives - and Sharon will back off.
If that is the attitude of the Palestinians then they must be destroyed.
hey - this is WAR.
One side has F-16s, Abrams tanks, missiles - and it uses these against civilians. The economic and military might of the US - in fact every US taxpayer - send money to Israel to equip itself with weapons to annihilate the people of Palestine.
The other side uses suicide bombs and largesse from oil rich Arabs.
Why single out only side?
good scenario - Peter Lefterov 9/5/02 11:19am
your scenario will come true - if the suicide bombers fail. So all sensible humans must support and encourage the suicide bombers. Where can I send donations?
"Where can I send donations?"
With every bombing Palestine chips away a little of its collective soul.
But go ahead and donate. If you hate Israel that much.
There will be peace when the Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israel.
Where can I send donations?
Better yet, why don't you sign up for a suicide bombing for yourself?
I'm just being an equal opportunity philanthropist guys.
I give money to Israel every paycheck - over the years, I must have at least donated one tank.
Why not give to the other side too? Especially if it prevents the hypothetical situation Peter L was visualizing.
I must have at least donated one tank.
Gotta admit, that's funny.
Rick 9/5/02 11:39am-
I was being facetious old chap.
Look - the ME situation is costing the US way too much in a myriad of ways.
The question of Israel and its existence is no longer being argued. Except for a few over the edge Mullahs, the death to Israel chant has as much relevance as little boy bush claiming to protect trees.
Arafat has been marginalized and a new leadership will emerge - if extremists like Sharon are also sent packing.
If the US cuts some slack to the Palestine people, kicks out the fat cat NYC settlers and re-proposes the deal Clinton brokered, the Palestinians will go for it. Once the nation of Palestine comes into being, the process of building it up will consume them. Israel can return to normalcy - be vigilant - and even help in establishing the institutions the new nation will require.
Israel has to back off and make some positive gestures.
Am I being too Lennonesque??
Israel has to back off and make some positive gestures.
Israel needs to destroy the terrorists.
"Israel has to back off and make some positive gestures."
Israel will not back off unless they are assured that the suicide bombings will stop. Meanwhile, if they have a lead on a suicide bomber, they will hunt them down.
They can't stop. Then the terrorists learn that what they need to do to wring concessions out of the Israelis is wire up young men and women and send them into a crowd to blow themselves up and take as many innocent people as they can.
And if the Israelis show a weakness in their resolve, the demands and the suicide bombings will never end.
The bombings have tailed off. It appears the two sides are getting tired of this cycle for awhile, but historically, that seems the time Israeli's should get nervous. The nearer a substantive agreement the more likely it is a bomber finds a place for himself in a crowd.
Naeem,
I agree, that's why the Isralies ought to be given free reign to remove the terrorist Palestinians from Israel or the face of the earth.
Your the one supporting the murder of children by supporting palestine
You know what the difference is between the Israelies and Palestinians ? One marches in the street by the thousands and celebrates innocent civilian death and sends their own children happily to do it. The other side apologizes if it happens, even has some of their own people protesting their actions and still allows them to stay in the country and not remove all of them.
The Palestinians have lost massive support with their terroristic tactics. They ought to be booted out of Gaza, the W.B, etc. They keep losing it every time they purposely blow up another kid.
Naradar - (PFID:1013f149) -
For there to be real peace there must be an immediate and honest change in
the mindset of Arab Nations. They must Accept Israel fully, should unilaterally announce full relations with Israel and must destroy the terrorists and terrorist networks within their lands.
However, I don't believe the goal of Pan-Arabia is either democracy or peace with Israel.
On a different note I find it amazing how the Green-leftists are uniting against America. Spoiled and stupid brats they all are. Do they know nothing of the history of the world? Do they see environmental and human rights progress in 3rd world dictatorships?
Leftist socialists would prefer that the whole
world be like Africa, the Middle East and the rest of the 3rd
world. You can spout your Peace, Green, anti-America BS only
because the West CREATES freedom from the normal way of
things--which is warlord chaos, tyrants and despots.
In their quest for 'peace' they accept slavery and servitude.. In their quest for 'justice' they bash America and
Israel and embrace Arabia, Arafat and Saddam, Syria. I won't even start about the 'Human Rights' commision.
"On a different note I find it amazing how the Green-leftists are uniting against America.
Spoiled and stupid brats they all are."
Is this a difference of opinion, or is it personal?
Rick
I'm angry at the bashing the US gets from the 3rd world. Especially the recent meeting in South Africa. I remember the same thing happened a year ago before 9-11. Do you know which countries are currntly on the UN Human Rights Commission?
I discern very little difference between the maniacal suicide bombers and the F-16 firing, Tank crushing, Uzi wielding , civilian massacring Sharon brigade.
The attack on the WTC was terrorism - a peaceful America going about its work and full of innocent toiling parents was set upon by a gang of zealots. Americans were not pursuing the AQ and machine gunning them down.
Every Israeli male is a soldier and is involved in defence of his country. They have to serve compulsorily and kill Palestinians. The entire Israeli populace is required to be engaged in the war against Palestine. Settlers occupy lands and arm theselves with Uzis and threaten those they deem enemies. The people of Palestine fight back with stones and sticks and suicide bombers.
These two are countries at war - like India and Pakistan , Turkey and Greece, Russia and Chechnya. There is no terrorism involved when two countries decide to go to war with each other. And in war, land mines, tanks, bombs are the implements. Wars involve killing.
Israel already has the advantage of an endless supply of arms and money from the US taxpayers. Why do they not fight their war with Palestine like soldiers , instead of moaning like wimps about the methods used.
I discern very little difference between the maniacal suicide bombers and the F-16 firing, Tank crushing, Uzi wielding , civilian massacring Sharon brigade.
That's why we will never understand you're take on this issue.
Naradar,
What ? They do fight it like soilders and that means using the tools you have. I''m sure if you were being fired on you'd say "naw, call off that tank I'm gonna go storm that building by myself that I'm taking fire from, just like rambo". Works great,,,,,,in the movies. Yes I'm sure you wouldn't, right, just as the Pals wouldn't if they had it. Do the Palestinains wear uniforms to distinguish themselvs from civilians. Nope. And for your info we DO send aid to Palestine. Ararat steals it. They have plenty of money and it dissapears into the P.A's bank accounts. And they have more than sticks and stones, they have kalishnikov's a.k's and anti tank weapons. Instead of targeting the soilders they target a mother taking her child to a seder celebration. Brave warriors that they are.
"Killing civilians cannot be justified under any circumstanses."
It's the unfortunate result of war, Peter. Civilians die. Deliberate killing cannot be justified, but sometimes it's unavoidable. The object of war is to kill the enemy and break their stuff.
"If one does kill civilians or orders killing civilians, he should carry personal, not collective responsibility. "
That seems fair. Now the Palistinians should dress in uniforms so the combatants can be identified. And they should stop hiding out among civilians. They put innocent people in danger.
And stop sacrificing children for their disgusting murder. It's cowardly.
A good clean fight.
Peter,
That's true and murders are exactly what the Palestinian suicide bombers are.
Soilders wear uniforms. I would be happy to donate some blaze orange uniforms with sirens and flashing lights on their helmets for the Palestinians.
So someone should have just called the cops on Hitler ?
Here's something you may not know, the army does try to capture these thugs and they then go to trial. It's too big a job for the police alone to handle. It's naieve to think that it's easy as calling the police.
LOL
Call the police.
That's funny.