So what will it take to make the Pioneer Press treasure hunt exciting again? What will make it last more than 6 or 7 clues? Trent wants to gather up the collective expertise of experienced hunters in order to come up with a list of recommendations that we can send to the Pioneer Press to help them improve the hunt. So post your ideas here!
Even though we've had considerably fewer people doing the Mock Hunt and subsequent hunts, we've still managed to largely prove that even with veteran hunters and little or no snow, a hunt can go quite a while with clues that are written well enough and a treasure that is hidden cleverly enough. So what can we recommend to the PP to make their hunt better?
Great thread idea AW (and Trent)!
I guess it depends on who the clue writer is- either the new clue writer is someone who's been around (the PP and StPaul)for a while and is familiar with the hunt and wanted to write the clues, but isn't very good at planning/writing -in which case they could improve on their own with experience, or it could be someone who's been around,but never got to hunt or didn't really pay attention to it-in which case if they get into the spirit of it they could improve on their own over time, or it could be someone new to St.Paul and the hunt, in which case they need to do their homework!
I think the key is to get their new clue writer to understand
anyway, those are the first things that come to my mind, but its late and I feel like I'm rambling...
We don't know how much preparation they put into it, so I put these questions to Allison, Jake and the Marley Crew:
How did you decide on park/location? How much time was devoted to clue writing? How do you determine the order of the clues?
Ares found an old post from Jake that mentioned Marthaler. Was that something you've planned for awhile?
Did Marley have a 'top three' list and decided on Mears?
Maybe I'm rambling too ...
They're not going to make the hunt more difficult.
Most people that do the Medallion hunt aren't hardcore hunters, and there's thousands of those people.
If Ma Press makes it too difficult, those people won't want to participate.
If those people don't participate, Ma Press doesn't sell papers.........
I agree with all 4 of you! Excellent thoughts.
This PPress hunt shouldn't be for the simpleminded though-the PPress have daily crossword puzzles that make people USE that brain and this hunt should be no different.
I think people do have to use their brains.
Trouble is that once the park is narrowed down, it's a crap shoot. There's just so many people hunting that whoever stumbles upon it first wins.
Last year we just happened to have no snow so it was stumbled upon rather quickly.
I don't know how Ma press can make it difficult enough that it takes longer to find, yet keep the non die hard hunters interested.
I'm interested to see how things go this year. Primarily because I don't know that there will be a winter carnival hunt thread at the PP page. We'll have ours here of course, but not everyone will know it or have access to it. I can only imagine the number of people who lurked and read our noodling. Even if they did some thinking, they could realize by reading out posts they were wrong and go digging in the right park. Maybe this will be the year for a cooler crew member.
i'm with you on this, jt. as for people not knowing this, kids, you're looking at the promotions department here. that doesn't mean though that people will actually follow through into here. i can think of a handful of people who would be here now if we had a way to get a hold of them.
Even if we had a thousand people show up here. We still have our invitation only thread to keep out the lurkers that don't contribute.
That's what I was talking about. the invitation thread. I have a feeling the good stuff we'll keep to that thread. We didn't have that in the previous thread. It was on the pp site, we didn't have regulation over it. It was easy for people to find the site and use what we were noodling. People could work for half a day, catch up on the noodling before lunch, then head out to the "hot park" where people thought it was at. They may somehow find their way to this forum (and maybe that would be a good thing so we can get more support for it) but they wouldn't be able to get into the members thread.
shhhh about that!!! you never know who may be reading this :)
There are ways to make the hunt mor difficult without making it seem more difficult. One tactic that has been used in all three hunts since the Medallion Hunt is the ruse. I think all three of us set up the clues to suggest one park if you read them a certain way, when really they were describing another park. When you go to check out the park, the individual clues may all seem to fit one way or another, but the experienced hunter will realize they just don't come together quite right there and keep looking. Yet when the hunt is over and the clues revealed, the explanations are still simple enough that people can read them and think "Oh, I should have gotten that!" Unfortunately, that's just good clue writing and it's a skill, and not something you can recommend to someone in a bullet point.
Some things that can be done however include knowing the hunters and the tools they are using these days. A lot of people use the Treasure Hunter's Guide. They could put it somewhere not in the guide, or perhaps use things in clues that aren't mentioned in the Guide or are possibly even labeled wrong.
The loss of the Cooler I think will actually help drag out the hunt. Less communication is bound to mean fewer people in the right park. It eliminates not only the lurkers who maybe don't do any thinking of their own, but also the people who are trying, but aren't getting the benefit of having as many people to bounce their ideas off of.
There are also certain patterns hunters follow. For example, someone may dig out an area, determine it's not there, and then start piling snow there. So they could make their own snowpile with the Medallion at the bottom, and whoever gets there first will probably just think someone else had been there looking already and they don't need to check that spot again. Or put it down in the snow and then walk across it. People will always dig up the virgin snow before they dig up the trails.
Another thing that can be done is to simply hide it better. The reason Conway went as long as it did was because the thing was hidden in white yarn. Had it been hidden in a Dove Soap box, it likely would have been found on Clue 8 or 9. And conversely, the Como hunt would have gone longer, possibly the Newell one as well, if the thing it was hidden in wouldn't have been so obvious from the first moment someone stumbled on it. And I won't even mention the hiding job at Merriam. But what it's found in will determine whether it's found the first time someone comes across it, or the fifth.
they actually hid it at marry-em?
hahahaha
I learned a few things from all 3 of these past hunts-just pulling it all together from 3 sets of good clues though and then going back to the PP hunt will be dificult-cause if it is the same cluewriter again the clues won't be as good- and we have to go back to 'simpleminded' thinking. I don't know if I can be simple!
::yeah, what she just said:: sorry to not make sense.
I don't know if I can be simple!
No comment.
:-)
tell you what, me2. you can bounce your ideas off me during the hunt and i'll tell you whether its simple enough.
LOL!
uh, what's so funny about that, jt?
so you are saying you are a 'simple man' :)
yes dear. whatever you say dear.
:) post 22 on the 22nd of 2002
uh, what's so funny about that, jt?
Nothing. Nothing at all.
My 2 cents on this is that if you look back at the clues from the last WC hunt, it wasn't the clues that were so bad - folks were in more than one park. It was a combination of lacking snow cover and poor hiding of the prize. The decent hiding of the medallion has been sorely lacking...especially this past year.
From my perspective, things have improved in some areas. No longer are metal detectors going to do anyone any good. That was a huge issue some years back. Frustrating to see those being used and figuring someone else already had an advantage over those who couldn't afford such tools.
The prize money has certainly increased. Is that good or bad? Perhaps it brings out more hunters. However, if it were me to find it, I'd certainly appreciate the size of that prize.
There were years that the medallion was found early - long before the internet and discussion forums dedicated to the hunt. Back in those "olden" days, the discussion happened in the parks. Strangers would sit and noodle clues together. The same thing happened then that happens in a forum. Some parts one would agree with and others would be discarded as too far afield. Most of the jibberish posted is just that. Jibberish. Fairgrounds, tower park, what time does the clue come out, double posting, where can I get the clues, etc., etc.
I agree that once the park is known it's a crap shoot. If one reads through past clues and know where it was found, the clues lead you to that spot - but the person lucky enough to dig exactly in the right spot to uncover the prize is mostly lucky.
I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not - but in recent years, the clues have mentioned things that, though visible from the park - are not necessarily visible from the treasure site. For someone like me who was used to having to line everything up, there is great frustration when something that is definately mentioned in a clue is not visible from the hiding spot.
Though I'm sure we'll never see it again, having two clues a day was wonderful. This one clue a day thing gives one too much time to read too much into the clues.
Also, the time that the clues are released online is not consistent nor at a good time of the day. I would like to see the clues released online at the same time they are given out at the paper.
For us it doesn't keep us from buying the paper - we need that for the collection of clues that increases the prize money. All it does is keep us up later waiting for the 10 minutes past the time when someone goes down, buys the paper and then posts it online. If the PP insists on keeping to the current online release time, it should be posted at the time stated.
There is nothing anyone can do about snow cover - but there is plenty that can be done about hiding the medallion so that it can't be found by stumbling on it in the middle of a field that is totally devoid of snow.
I do have to admit though that I feel by insulating ourselves, we may be slightly increasing our chances of finding the medallion, but we lessen our chances of finding other treasures like Dal, Violent J, Lisa's Mommy, Frosti, and, well whoever else we picked up in the last year. Of course it may be a moot point as I don't think the atmosphere of the Old Cooler where it felt like everyone was coming together into one place will ever be duplicated under the current system at the PP. But if you take an exclusionary stance, it could well be that it's future friends that you're excluding.
Allison - that's exactly what I miss most about the old PP. We've made so many good friends through the hunt and the discussion board at the PP. Our lives have been sooo enriched - more than any medallion money could possibly bring - by the friends and characters we've met through the online community that was the PP water cooler boards.
I agree with that last post AW. What makes the hunts fun for me, the people factor and the getting outside in winter. I'm not particularly competitive, and although I would like to find the medallion, its not what the hunt is about for me (which is probably why I won't find it, but Marley could). My reward is making friends, fresh air and a bit of fun exercise(mental and physical). Which is why I'd prefer it to go longer than 6 clues.
I think Terrys right about last years hunt, if it was hiden better it might have lasted longer. But hidden in the same spot, with better clues, it might have lasted a little longer too.
And yes good clue writing is a skill, but as with any skill, I believe it can be developed, and improved or enhanced by studying other examples, taking classes and learning new techniques. For clue writing maybe a mystery/intrigue writing workshop, or even a poetry class, and there are hunts nationwide accessible via the internet. Without knowing who the clue writer is, and what their credentials are, I can only offer suggestions that I think would help anyone who wanted to write clues.
Marley stands on the theory that they wanted it to be found early, just to prove to the conspiracy theorists that they actually put it down before clue one and don't drop it on the eleventh clue ; )
Hmmm, I don't know that they are so worried about the conspiracy theorists that they would actually launch a conspiracy to have it found early and have every other aspect of the hunt suffer as a consequence.
I think they just followed the same old techniques, threw it out in the middle of a field during a snowstorm, and assumed everything would be fine. And for some reason beyond fathoming, when it became obvious it wasn't going to be alright, they did nothing about it. Maybe they were hoping more snow would come before people figured out the park. But I can't believe they wanted a short hunt as there's little benefit to them when that happens.
To be perfectly honest, if they had 11 clues of total incomprehensible fluff, and then revealed the hiding spot in the 12th clue, I think it would still go down as a great hunt. Sure, people would look at the explanations and groan, but they would probably forget that part of it before long and instead only remember the good times they had getting out hunting, meeting people, debating the clues, and just the overall experience of the hunt. Yes, some people are competitive and would be angry if they didn't feel they had a fair shot, but I think a lot of people just enjoy participating.
I am with you AW on both points. First and foremost, you ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, CANNOT say that a 12 clue hunt won't be a memorable one. The mad rush is one of the things that makes this hunt special. Point #2, I spoke with Carolyn Robertson for about 45 minutes before the press conference this year, and she was literally holding back the tears. To say that she was unhappy about the early ending would be putting it mildly.
The conspiracy theory thing was a joke guys! Just tryin to keep it light!
Ian 8/22/02 4:12am
Ian, this might answer some of your questions about our experience with writing the clues- Artemis The Huntress "The Marley King Hunt" 8/23/02 1:19am
I have to both agree and disagree with a few of the points that you guys have been mentioning. That's the beauty of this forum not unlike the hunt. You take what you want and agree to disagree with the rest. I personally need to be able to go back to the actual site and stand and look around and see each individual clue. I need that big 'W' feeling. We kind of felt it during the MK hunt when we counted the 13 squares and then rotated around to see everything else fit. You still needed to be in the general area to make everything fit but not the exact spot. I think a formula that could include 1/2 the clues be those general, generic clues, and the other 1/2 be a little more in depth clues, could easily satisfy both ends. Throw in a few about water, trails, playgrounds, trees, park benches etc. Then toss in some about mildly obscure personalities, events or places where the beginner could say to themselves that they were impressed that they figured out at least 1/2 the clues, which would get them back the next year. The writer absolutely needs to have hunted before. I really don't think that there should be any exception to this. I also feel that you need to have at least 3 people help write, or at least edit, the clues for perspective. I know when I wrote the clues for my hunt, I presented them to a number of people and basically had them do the actual hunt with the clues coming out every hour. They had great input of how to make it more challenging and more understandable at the same time. There is, of course, the security issue with each person that you involve in something this big. I also think that the writer(s) need to visit our threads here to see what goes into the minds of the veteran hunters. We do understand the aspect that the hunt is put on to sell papers and not for our enjoyment alone. And also understand the need to have as many people participate as possible. It's a very fine line and you can never keep all the people happy. But between you and I, that clue about 'merry-em' would of never made it out of the starting blocks if even one other person was involved. I'm sure this thread will have many opinions in the coming months. And I'm sure that I'll have a change of thoughts with each new idea that pops up. So keep them coming. Hopefully this will lead to longer and more fulfilling hunts as a few of those memorable ones have in the past.
I think there are a few factors that go into choosing which park to hide it in. In my case I had thought of Phalen as a possibility because my bus went by there and a few clue possibilities had occured to me should I ever hide it there. Linwood I picked just because it seemed like a park where it should have been at some point in the PP hunt, but it hadn't. Tilden I picked just because it was obscure. Other parks I considerd just because I was hoping to possibly put it in a certain part of town. I considered Frost Lake because I felt a whim to go on the east side. I considered Kellogg because I wanted to try a downtown hunt. In the end, Phalen seemed best though because it would be easy to hide it, it would be easy to hunt in, and I liked some of the possibilities for setting up ruses. I also liked that the area across from the main entrance was so obvious and yet so obscure at the same time.
Another consideration that the PP should have considered in 2000 was that I tried to avoid a park that had been talked about a lot during the PP hunt. In 99, during the early part of the Conway Hunt, a lot of people thought it was in Newell and spent days in that park, as well as talking about it in the Cooler. So in 2000, when it actually was at Newell, it was that much easier to figure it out because of the heightened familiarity with that park people had.
But most of these are really secondary considerations. The main thing that determines it is how clever do you think your hiding spot is and how excited are you about the clue writing possibilities? At Linwood I really like the little hole at the base of the wooden fence and at Phalen I liked the fact that Earl St. ran into it right there, yet probably no one realized that as the fact wasn't even mentioned in the Guide. I figured an allusion to Earl St. would send everyone to Mounds and I could base the whole clue structure off that fact.
I don't know that the PP has any of these considerations, but hopefully this helped.
I figured an allusion to Earl St. would send everyone to Mounds and I could base the whole clue structure off that fact.
well except for those of us who have spent our whole lives living within a mile of the park and thus have a very intimate familiarity with it. of course i'm still not convinced that your goal was to send us to indian mounds instead of como :)
It didn't occur to me until people started mentioning Como that the clues kind of fit there as well. Mounds was the only decoy I had in mind.
I thought both yours and the PP hunt was in IM at first. I think you're right in that they shouldn't put it there this year since there was a bunch of us looking out there in the previous hunt.
I wouldn't mind of course :)
WoW-you all, that is alot to read-can't noodle clues so got those fingers typing stories! geesh-
Yeah-what Clue Master said :) (in post 32)
It didn't occur to me until people started mentioning Como that the clues kind of fit there as well. Mounds was the only decoy I had in mind.
Wheelock Pkwy going to Phalen and Como and the crab apple trees in both parks-and you didn't even think of crab apples!
and to think- if 2 points meet (Earl and Wheelock from Mounds and Como) you get Phalen---
and ivy running into both
thats right-at the point/sundial at Como if I remember.
All the hiders need to do is use some common sense. It it pretty obvious that the middle of a nearly snowless field is not going to be a good place to hide the medallion. AW is probably right, they put it there a while before the melting, and then never bothered to change the location, maybe they thought it to be too risky, maybe they didn't want to change the clues; who know. One thing that I did learn during this hunt: I WILL NEVER TRY AND "SAVE ENERGY" AGAIN! I am going to go all out as soon as I have so much as a feeling as to which park it is in. I hated not really ever hunting and having the hunt be over.
tim, you really should join us in all these mock hunts if you get the chance to around school and homework and stuff.
I should have but it seems as though I have missed all of them, I will try and keep more in touch in case there are any more between now and January...
get thee back here the evening of november 1. jake's got another one in the works (the michael schumacher fall hunt thread).
Is November considered fall? fall of snow? anyhow-he is beginiing it November 3rd - Sunday -no time yet-you gotta call and bug him about it- I think everyone should call him ;)
well from what i hear we couldbe getting a decent amount of snow this week.
If it snows for jakes hunt I-------------------
you what?
He was going to say quit, but couldn't bring himself to say it ;)
he could quit hunting about as easily as the rest of us could. which is to say he couldn't.