A review of Mel Gibson's "The Passion Of The Christ" prior to its actual release. I thought I'd give you my reaction after seeing it last night:
This is not a movie that anyone will "like". I don't think it's a movie anyone will "love". It certainly doesn't "entertain". There isn't even the sense that one has just watched a movie. What it is, is an experience -- on a level of primary emotion that is scarcely comprehensible. Every shred of human preconception or pre-disposition is utterly stripped away. No one will eat popcorn during this film. Some may not eat for days after they've seen it. Quite honestly, I wanted to vomit. It hits that hard. I can see why some people are worried about how the film portrays the Jews. They should be worried. No, it's not anti-Semitic. What it is, is entirely shattering. There are no "winners". No one comes off looking good" - except Jesus. Even His own mother hesitates.
As depicted, the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day merely do what any of us would have done - and still do. They protected their perceived "place" - their sense of safety and security, and the satisfaction of their own "rightness". But everyone falters. Caiphus judges. Peter denies. Judas betrays. Simon the Cyrene balks. Mark runs away. Pilate equivocates. The crowd mocks. The soldiers laugh. Longinus still stabs with his pilus. The centurion still carries out his orders. And as Jesus fixes them all with a glance, they still turn away. The Jews, the Romans, Jesus' friends - they all fall. Everyone, except the Principal Figure. Heaven sheds a single, mighty tear - and as blood and water spew from His side, the complacency of all creation is eternally shattered.
The film grabs you in the first five seconds, and never lets go. The brutality, humiliation, and gore is almost inconceivable - and still probably doesn't go far enough. The scourging alone seems to never end, and you cringe at the sound and splatter of every blow - no matter how steely your nerves. Even those who have known combat or prison will have trouble, no matter their experience - because this Man was not conscripted. He went willingly, laying down His entirety for all. It is one thing for a soldier to die for his countrymen. It's something else entirely to think of even a common man dying for those who hate and wish to kill him. But this is no common man. This is the King of the Universe. The idea that anyone could or would have gone through such punishment is unthinkable - but this Man was completely innocent, completely holy - and paying the price for others. He screams as He is laid upon the cross, "Father, they don't know. They don't know..."
What Gibson has done is to use all of his considerable skill to portray the most dramatic moment of the most dramatic events since the dawn of time. There is no escape. It's a punch to the gut that puts you on the canvas, and you don't get up. You are simply confronted by the horror of what was done - what had to be done - and why. Throughout the entire film, I found myself apologizing.
What you've heard about how audiences have reacted is true. There was no sound after the film's conclusion. No noise at all. No one got up. No one moved. The only sound one could hear was sobbing. In all my years of public life, I have never heard anything like that.
I told many of you that Gibson had reportedly re-shot the ending to include more "hope" through the Resurrection? That's not true. The Resurrection scene is perhaps the shortest in the entire movie - and yet it packs a punch that can't be quantified. It is perfect. There is no way to negotiate the meaning out of it. It simply asks, "Now, what will you do?"
I'll leave the details to you, in the hope that you will see the film - but one thing above all stands out, and I have to tell you about it. It comes from the end of Jesus' temptations in the wilderness - where the Bible says Satan left him "until a more opportune time". I imagine Satan never quit tempting Christ, but this film captures beyond words the most opportune time. At every step of the way, Satan is there at Jesus' side - imploring Him to quit, reasoning with Him to give up, and seducing Him to surrender. For the first time, one gets an heart-stopping idea of the sense of madness that must have enveloped Jesus - a sense of the evil that was at His very elbow. The physical punishment is relentless - but it's the sense of psychological torture that is most overwhelming. He should have quit. He should have opened His mouth. He should have called 10,000 angels. No one would have blamed Him. What we deserve is obvious. But, He couldn't do that. He wouldn't do that. He didn't do that. He doesn't do that. It was not and is not His character. He was obedient, all the way to the cross - and you feel the real meaning of that phrase in a place the human heart usually doesn't dare to go. You understand that we are called to that same level of obedience. With Jesus' humanity so irresistibly on display, you understand that we have no excuse. There is no place to hide.
The truth is this: Is it just a "movie"? In a way, yes. But it goes far beyond that, in a fashion I've never felt - in any forum. We may think we know". We know nothing. We've gone 2,000 years - used to the idea of a pleasant story, and a sanitized Christ. We expect the ending, because we've heard it so many times. God forgive us. This film tears that all away. It's is as close as any of us will ever get to knowing, until we fully know. Paul understood. "Be urgent, in and out of season."
Luke wrote that Jesus reveals Himself in the breaking of the bread. Exactly. "The Passion Of The Christ" shows that Bread being broken.
Did you write that? Nno. I haven't seen the movie yet.If not, do you have a link? I got it in an e-mail. I didn't know where it came fromIt was very well written. Yes, I thought so, too.
you really should give some sort of credit when you post so much of someone else's writing.
I would have, as I usually do,if I had known where it had came from. Like I wrote above, I got it in an e-mail pretty much like it is posted. I can say someone in the chain of e-mails had made some edits.
Why must you be so dense? I didn't mean to give the impression that I wrote it. I guess I should have pulled a Clinton. I could have deleted the post and told everyone that I had not even read it and that I needed to get back to work.
well goody for you. so what?
so the source was easy to locate.
again so what? I didn't think to look for a site. what are you attempting to say, crabs? I know ideas are difficult for you and expressing them is even more difficult. But you can do it, I know you can!
On those notes... Did anyone see the movie yet? It sounds like Natural Born Killers go to church. I'd like to see what a real person (critics are nothing but imaginary tools) thinks about the flick. Looking at it from both religious and movie perspectives. That Mel is a genius in marketing this thing.
"Mel Gibson's father says Holocaust exaggerated" " "It's all -- maybe not all fiction -- but most of it is," he said, adding that the gas chambers and crematoria at camps like Auschwitz would not have been capable of exterminating so many people.
"Do you know what it takes to get rid of a dead body? To cremate it?" he said. "It takes a litre of petrol and 20 minutes. Now, six million of them? They (the Germans) did not have the gas to do it. That's why they lost the war." "
Mel's Dad is ignorant & a bit hateful. That doesn't make Mel's movie bad.
Anyway....
"Do you know what it takes to get rid of a dead body? To cremate it?" he said. "It takes a litre of petrol and 20 minutes. Now, six million of them? They (the Germans) did not have the gas to do it. That's why they lost the war." "
This is gross, but I saw a special one time how the Nazi's figured out exactly how many bodies to put in the ovens and when, so the bodies themselves became "fuel" for the other bodies.
I heard on fox news last night some one died watching that movie
Some lady in her 50's of a heart attack Then also last night (unconfirmed) I heard a guy say public radio said some guy also died of a heart attack. That makes 2 dead, both heart attacks during the crucifiction scene
any film that graphically depicts a human being, whether Jesus or anybody else, being tortured and beaten to a bloody pulp should have some kind of effect on a person. Now does anybody really want to watch that??? might say something about our society...
there is a school of thought that says that the method and duration of Christ's cruxifixtion would probably not have killed him. That if he died, he in effect committed a type of suicide.
this of course would go a long way toward explaining his "resurrection"
I'm saying that Dr. Scavone has researched it and that considering all the variables (type of cruxifixion, duration, physical build...etc) it is highly unlikely that what happened to Christ would have killed him.
you have to leave them up there for days and days before the muscles give out and causes them to asphyxicate (which is how cruxifixition actually kills them). He simply wasn't up there long enough.
If it was a trick...don't you think that "david blaine" would try to do the same stunt? Talk about the press at that one....
yes, it would be very much like a David Blaine stunt.
It would be very interesting if someone was willing to actually recreate what happened for the length of time it was supposed to happen and see if they survived.
All I'm saying is that Dr. Scavone (who has studied it a great deal and written extensivly on both this and the shroud of Turin) claims that it's more probably that he would have been able to survive what happened to him.
They crucified people to execute them
Answer me this, how long was he up there?
and how long does cruxifixion usually take to kill a young, thin man?
It would be very interesting if someone was willing to actually recreate what happened for the length of time it was supposed to happen and see if they survived.
IF it could be done...somebody would have done it by now just to make money,brag, and sell a book....
Imagine the likely reaction when same-sex couples married in San Francisco or Massachusetts (where the top court has ordered same-sex unions starting in May) return to, say, Peoria, Ill., and demand that their employers provide health benefits for their new spouses. Support for a constitutional amendment is likely to grow if people in Tennessee or Texas believe the mayor of San Francisco or four Massachusetts judges can dictate marriage laws in their states.
(John 19) 31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," 37and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."
John 20 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe." 26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
It would be very interesting if someone was willing to actually recreate what happened for the length of time it was supposed to happen and see if they survived.
Care to be nailed to a cross and then stabbed in the side to demonstrate how he could have survived?
crabs, has hit a new low. any bets on how low he can go?
I never stated anything about what I thought about it one way or the other...only that I know a guy whos father has done extensive scholarly research on the subject and what he was saying about it.
Im flattered that you would credit me with these things, but I clearly stated that it was someone elses ideas.
and thats just the thing, isnt it? with bodine and the Bible, all one has to do to be thought of as wrong is to question something. The simple act of asking what if is some sort of horrible sin to people like bodine.
In case you are interested here is an abstract from a book that Dr. Scavone wrote about the Shroud of Turin and the Holy Grail.
now certainly it is virtually impossible to say for certain that Christ didn't die...but the fact is, that same impossibility holds for proving for certain that He did die from it.
and bodine, I don't care how "low" you think it is...I'm going to question things regardless...it's how one learns. Stop asking question, you stop learning.
I'd actually have more respect for Christ if it was just a really good magic trick to get people to love one another and not some sort of supernatural guilt trip.
Jesus of Nazareth underwent Jewish and Roman trials, was flogged, and was sentenced to death by crucifixion. The scourging produced deep stripelike lacerations and appreciable blood loss, and it probably set the stage for hypovolemic shock, as evidenced by the fact that Jesus was too weakened to carry the crossbar (patibulum) to Golgotha. At the site of crucifixion, his wrists were nailed to the patibulum and, after the patibulum was lifted onto the upright post (stipes), his feet were nailed to the stipes. The major pathophysiologic effect of crucifixion was an interference with normal respirations. Accordingly, death resulted primarily from hypovolemic shock and exhaustion asphyxia. Jesus' death was ensured by the thrust of a soldier's spear into his side. Modern medical interpretation of the historical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead when taken down from the cross.
The major pathophysiologic effect of crucifixion was an interference with normal respirations. Accordingly, death resulted primarily from hypovolemic shock and exhaustion asphyxia.
I'm not saying that there aren't conflicting accounts.
most crucifixions are finally brought to death by breaking the legs...if this is not done, a person can live for quite a long time before his muscles give out to the point where they can no longer provide the support needed to forgo the suffocation.
I don't see you doing it at Jews, Muslims, Hindus...
I don't see jews and muslims (and I have poked at some of the more absurd aspects of that religion from time to time as well) or hindu's trying to use my government to imposes their religion on me nearly as much as those Christians.
Christians seem particularly hell-bent on making everyone live under their beliefs.
and besides, I don't despise anyone for their beliefs...I despise anyone who would use our government to impose those beliefs on me.
all of the Christians I know that I actually see livng and behaving like actual Christians are fine folks...some real fine human beings and among the best of my friends.
in case you haven't noticed, it's bodine who has been doing all the despising around here. I can provide all the examples you like.
the sad part is that you are f'd up, crabs.
A review of Mel Gibson's "The Passion Of The Christ" prior to its actual release. I thought I'd give you my reaction after seeing it last night:
This is not a movie that anyone will "like". I don't think it's a
movie anyone will "love". It certainly doesn't "entertain". There isn't even the sense that one has just watched a movie. What it is, is an experience -- on a level of primary emotion that is scarcely comprehensible. Every shred of human preconception or pre-disposition is utterly stripped away. No one will eat popcorn during this film. Some may not eat for days after they've seen it. Quite honestly, I wanted to vomit. It hits that hard. I can see why some people are worried about how the film portrays the Jews. They should be worried. No, it's not anti-Semitic. What it is, is entirely shattering. There are no "winners". No one comes off looking good" - except Jesus. Even His own mother hesitates.
As depicted, the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day merely do what any of us would have done - and still do. They protected their perceived "place" - their sense of safety and security, and the satisfaction of their own "rightness". But everyone falters. Caiphus judges. Peter denies. Judas betrays. Simon the Cyrene balks. Mark runs away. Pilate equivocates. The crowd mocks. The soldiers laugh. Longinus still stabs with his pilus. The centurion still carries out his orders. And as Jesus fixes them all with a glance, they still turn away. The Jews, the Romans, Jesus' friends - they all fall. Everyone, except the Principal Figure. Heaven sheds a single, mighty tear - and as blood and water spew from His side, the complacency of all creation is eternally shattered.
The film grabs you in the first five seconds, and never lets go. The brutality, humiliation, and gore is almost inconceivable - and still probably doesn't go far enough. The scourging alone seems to never end, and you cringe at the sound and splatter of every blow - no matter how steely your nerves. Even those who have known combat or prison will have trouble, no matter their experience - because this Man was not conscripted. He went willingly, laying down His entirety for all. It is one thing for a soldier to die for his countrymen. It's something else entirely to think of even a common man dying for those who hate and wish to kill him. But this is no common man. This is the King of the Universe. The idea that anyone could or would have gone through such punishment is unthinkable - but this Man was completely innocent, completely holy - and paying the price for others. He screams as He is laid upon the cross, "Father, they don't know. They don't know..."
What Gibson has done is to use all of his considerable skill to
portray the most dramatic moment of the most dramatic events since the dawn of time. There is no escape. It's a punch to the gut that puts you on the canvas, and you don't get up. You are simply confronted by the horror of what was done - what had to be done - and why. Throughout the entire film, I found myself apologizing.
What you've heard about how audiences have reacted is true. There was no sound after the film's conclusion. No noise at all. No one got up. No one moved. The only sound one could hear was sobbing. In all my years of public life, I have never heard anything like that.
I told many of you that Gibson had reportedly re-shot the ending to
include more "hope" through the Resurrection? That's not true. The Resurrection scene is perhaps the shortest in the entire movie - and yet it packs a punch that can't be quantified. It is perfect. There is no way to negotiate the meaning out of it. It simply asks, "Now, what will you do?"
I'll leave the details to you, in the hope that you will see the film - but one thing above all stands out, and I have to tell you about it. It comes from the end of Jesus' temptations in the wilderness - where the Bible says Satan left him "until a more opportune time". I imagine Satan never quit tempting Christ, but this film captures beyond words the most opportune time. At every step of the way, Satan is there at Jesus' side - imploring Him to quit, reasoning with Him to give up, and seducing Him to surrender. For the first time, one gets an heart-stopping idea of the sense of madness that must have enveloped Jesus - a sense of the evil that was at His very elbow. The physical punishment is relentless - but it's the sense of psychological torture that is most overwhelming. He should have quit. He should have opened His mouth. He should have called 10,000 angels. No one would have blamed Him. What we deserve is obvious. But, He couldn't do that. He wouldn't do that. He didn't do that. He doesn't do that. It was not and is not His character. He was obedient, all the way to the cross - and you feel the real meaning of that phrase in a place the human heart usually doesn't dare to go. You understand that we are called to that same level of obedience. With Jesus' humanity so irresistibly on display, you understand that we have no excuse. There is no place to hide.
The truth is this: Is it just a "movie"? In a way, yes. But it goes
far beyond that, in a fashion I've never felt - in any forum. We may
think we know". We know nothing. We've gone 2,000 years - used to the idea of a pleasant story, and a sanitized Christ. We expect the ending, because we've heard it so many times. God forgive us. This film tears that all away. It's is as close as any of us will ever get to knowing, until we fully know. Paul understood. "Be urgent, in and out of season."
Luke wrote that Jesus reveals Himself in the breaking of the bread.
Exactly. "The Passion Of The Christ" shows that Bread being broken.
Go see this movie.
Did you write that? If not, do you have a link? It was very well written.
you really should give some sort of credit when you post so much of someone else's writing.
Did you write that? Nno. I haven't seen the movie yet.If not, do you have a link? I got it in an e-mail. I didn't know where it came fromIt was very well written. Yes, I thought so, too.
you really should give some sort of credit when you post so much of someone else's writing.
I would have,
as I usually do, if I had known where it had came from. Like I wrote above, I got it in an e-mail pretty much like it is posted. I can say someone in the chain of e-mails had made some edits.
leading with "I thought I'd give you my reaction after seeing it last night:" makes it appear it's your own.
it took me about 20 seconds to find the source.
leading with "I thought I'd give you my reaction after seeing it last night:" makes it appear it's your own.
I didn't think anything about it. it wasn't intentional and it was clarified once it was brought up.
it took me about 20 seconds to find the source. well goody for you. so what?
you mean you didn't mean to post that?
so the source was easy to locate.
it wasn't intentional
you mean you didn't mean to post that?
Why must you be so dense? I didn't mean to give the impression that I wrote it. I guess I should have pulled a Clinton. I could have deleted the post and told everyone that I had not even read it and that I needed to get back to work.
well goody for you. so what?
so the source was easy to locate.
again so what? I didn't think to look for a site. what are you attempting to say, crabs? I know ideas are difficult for you and expressing them is even more difficult. But you can do it, I know you can!
you didn't mean to give the impression that you didn't write it either.
I mean, did you read what you posted?
because I can't see how posting "I thought I'd give you my reaction after seeing it last night:" with no other disclaimer can be read as anything but.
you didn't mean to give the impression that you didn't write it either.
Why question it? I told you what happened.
I mean, did you read what you posted?
because I can't see how posting "I thought I'd give you my reaction after seeing it last night:" with no other disclaimer can be read as anything but.
I read it once. I didn't go back to the top and reread the intro.
can I do that too?
post shit that says I am saying it and only correct it if you ask if I wrote it?
can I do that too?
post shit that says I am saying it and only correct it if you ask if I wrote it?
It was simply an error. I corrected it when it was brought to my attention. what do you want? are you always unreasonable?*
Who cares?
I don't think Jethro intended for us to believe he wrote it. I didn't take it as he was trying to take credit for writing it.
FWIW: I noticed the post, but didn't read it.
On those notes... Did anyone see the movie yet? It sounds like Natural Born Killers go to church. I'd like to see what a real person (critics are nothing but imaginary tools) thinks about the flick. Looking at it from both religious and movie perspectives. That Mel is a genius in marketing this thing.
"Mel Gibson's father says Holocaust exaggerated"
" "It's all -- maybe not all fiction -- but most of it is," he said, adding that the gas chambers and crematoria at camps like Auschwitz would not have been capable of exterminating so many people.
"Do you know what it takes to get rid of a dead body? To cremate it?" he said. "It takes a litre of petrol and 20 minutes. Now, six million of them? They (the Germans) did not have the gas to do it. That's why they lost the war." "
From: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/19/1077072756433.html
Yeah, I also saw that his dad said that most of the Jews didn't die at all and actually went to America instead.
Like I said before;
That Mel.....
pimpin his dad on Sawyer. You go Hollywood
Mel's Dad is ignorant & a bit hateful. That doesn't make Mel's movie bad.
Anyway....
"Do you know what it takes to get rid of a dead body? To cremate it?" he said. "It takes a litre of petrol and 20 minutes. Now, six million of them? They (the Germans) did not have the gas to do it. That's why they lost the war." "
This is gross, but I saw a special one time how the Nazi's figured out exactly how many bodies to put in the ovens and when, so the bodies themselves became "fuel" for the other bodies.
Man, that's some sick shit.
That Mel is a genius in marketing this thing.
I'd say a lot of this just fell in his lap. People started getting in an uproar before before the movie even started filming.
I haven't seen it yet, but my opinion is, his critics are the one's creating the market for the movie.
I've heard it isn't that great, and I've heard it isn't as graphic as the press is making it out to be.
It's graphic, but no more so than the average hollywood movie these days.
I heard on fox news last night some one died watching that movie
Some lady in her 50's of a heart attack
Then also last night (unconfirmed) I heard a guy say public radio said some guy also died of a heart attack. That makes 2 dead, both heart attacks during the crucifiction scene
it sounds like Passion is a remake of Braveheart with a more well known lead character.
Religion & Morals
any film that graphically depicts a human being, whether Jesus or anybody else, being tortured and beaten to a bloody pulp should have some kind of effect on a person. Now does anybody really want to watch that??? might say something about our society...
Now does anybody really want to watch that?
I don't want to watch the violence per se, but I'm going to see the movie.
I'm not going to the movie. I've already read the book.
I'm not going to the movie. I've already read the book.
:-)
Now does anybody really want to watch that???
Why would anyone want to die like that?
I'll probly see it also
maybe the brutality is a reminder of what the reality was. Perhaps it is needed in this case
Do you, the first applicant, take the second applicant to be a lawfully wedded applicant for 1049 federal benefits for the rest of your life?
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/maggiegallagher/mg20040226.shtml
there is a school of thought that says that the method and duration of Christ's cruxifixtion would probably not have killed him. That if he died, he in effect committed a type of suicide.
this of course would go a long way toward explaining his "resurrection"
That if he died
Do they think he faked his death?
If it was a trick...don't you think that "david blaine" would try to do the same stunt? Talk about the press at that one....
crabs also believes Elvis faked his death. He tends to fall for any conspiracy theory he hears.
"david blaine"
lol
there is a school of thought that says that the method and duration of Christ's cruxifixtion would probably not have killed him.
Hogwash. They crucified people to execute them.
I'm saying that Dr. Scavone has researched it and that considering all the variables (type of cruxifixion, duration, physical build...etc) it is highly unlikely that what happened to Christ would have killed him.
you have to leave them up there for days and days before the muscles give out and causes them to asphyxicate (which is how cruxifixition actually kills them). He simply wasn't up there long enough.
yes, it would be very much like a David Blaine stunt.
It would be very interesting if someone was willing to actually recreate what happened for the length of time it was supposed to happen and see if they survived.
All I'm saying is that Dr. Scavone (who has studied it a great deal and written extensivly on both this and the shroud of Turin) claims that it's more probably that he would have been able to survive what happened to him.
Answer me this, how long was he up there?
and how long does cruxifixion usually take to kill a young, thin man?
crabs, has hit a new low. any bets on how low he can go?
It would be very interesting if someone was willing to actually recreate what happened for the length of time it was supposed to happen and see if they survived.
IF it could be done...somebody would have done it by now just to make money,brag, and sell a book....
Imagine the likely reaction when same-sex couples married in San Francisco or Massachusetts (where the top court has ordered same-sex unions starting in May) return to, say, Peoria, Ill., and demand that their employers provide health benefits for their new spouses. Support for a constitutional amendment is likely to grow if people in Tennessee or Texas believe the mayor of San Francisco or four Massachusetts judges can dictate marriage laws in their states.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/debrasaunders/ds20040226.shtml
(John 19) 31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," 37and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."
John 20
25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."
26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."
27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
It would be very interesting if someone was willing to actually recreate what happened for the length of time it was supposed to happen and see if they survived.
Care to be nailed to a cross and then stabbed in the side to demonstrate how he could have survived?
I never stated anything about what I thought about it one way or the other...only that I know a guy whos father has done extensive scholarly research on the subject and what he was saying about it.
Im flattered that you would credit me with these things, but I clearly stated that it was someone elses ideas.
and thats just the thing, isnt it? with bodine and the Bible, all one has to do to be thought of as wrong is to question something. The simple act of asking what if is some sort of horrible sin to people like bodine.
In case you are interested here is an abstract from a book that Dr. Scavone wrote about the Shroud of Turin and the Holy Grail.
now certainly it is virtually impossible to say for certain that Christ didn't die...but the fact is, that same impossibility holds for proving for certain that He did die from it.
and bodine, I don't care how "low" you think it is...I'm going to question things regardless...it's how one learns. Stop asking question, you stop learning.
so, how much can you tell us about how cruxifixion actually kills someone?
are you an expert? have you studied it extensively or something?
I'd actually have more respect for Christ if it was just a really good magic trick to get people to love one another and not some sort of supernatural guilt trip.
From The Journal of the American Medical Association
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/255/11/1455
Jesus of Nazareth underwent Jewish and Roman trials, was flogged, and was sentenced to death by crucifixion. The scourging produced deep stripelike lacerations and appreciable blood loss, and it probably set the stage for hypovolemic shock, as evidenced by the fact that Jesus was too weakened to carry the crossbar (patibulum) to Golgotha. At the site of crucifixion, his wrists were nailed to the patibulum and, after the patibulum was lifted onto the upright post (stipes), his feet were nailed to the stipes. The major pathophysiologic effect of crucifixion was an interference with normal respirations. Accordingly, death resulted primarily from hypovolemic shock and exhaustion asphyxia. Jesus' death was ensured by the thrust of a soldier's spear into his side. Modern medical interpretation of the historical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead when taken down from the cross.
The flogging alone was probably enough to kill him.
I'm not saying that there aren't conflicting accounts.
most crucifixions are finally brought to death by breaking the legs...if this is not done, a person can live for quite a long time before his muscles give out to the point where they can no longer provide the support needed to forgo the suffocation.
It's a swell story though.
I find it funny that bodine would consider someone who even considered the question to have sunk to some sort of low.
I find it funny that you despise Christians so much, that you'll use any opportunity to jab at them.
I don't see you doing it at Jews, Muslims, Hindus...
So much for tolerance & diversity, huh?
I don't see jews and muslims (and I have poked at some of the more absurd aspects of that religion from time to time as well) or hindu's trying to use my government to imposes their religion on me nearly as much as those Christians.
Christians seem particularly hell-bent on making everyone live under their beliefs.
and besides, I don't despise anyone for their beliefs...I despise anyone who would use our government to impose those beliefs on me.
all of the Christians I know that I actually see livng and behaving like actual Christians are fine folks...some real fine human beings and among the best of my friends.
in case you haven't noticed, it's bodine who has been doing all the despising around here. I can provide all the examples you like.