The essence of self-determination and independence upon which America is founded.
In addition to international law, these are the things/values our nation would be trampling underfoot if we allowed George Bush to launch a war against Iraq.
Take a minute to seriously ponder the staggering wrong such aggression would entail:
It's being suggested, with straightfaced seriousness, that we invade and bomb a sovereign foreign country, and "implement a regime change," just because we don't like its leader.
Well, it goes without saying that there are infinitely larger numbers of people on this planet who fear and despise George W. Bush than Saddam Hussein.
Think not? When's the last time you saw an Iraqi flag being torched in an angry street demonstration somewhere in the world. It's always Old Glory, and effigies of either Dubya or Uncle Sam.
Should those countless souls on Earth who have often very compelling reason to dislike us...organize militarily to attack the United States, and get rid of our president?
Actually, some of them have already done the former. We know them as "terrorists".
And, as we're speaking of self-evident truths, consider this:
An American attack on Iraq would unquestionably bring about more violent harm and death to far more innocent people than would result if Iraq were left entirely alone, not provoked or interfered with in any way.
It's simply a propaganda slander that Iraq has aggressive designs on its neighbors, or on anyone else.
If ever there was a society that desperately wants to just live in peace, it's Iraq, as damaged as it's been by unrelenting bellicosity from the United States, manifested in a murderous embargo and constant "low intensity" bombings.
Should weapons inspectors be allowed back into Iraq?
Yes, but without Washington's manipulation or ultimatums, under truly independent UN auspices, by highly qualified and reputable personnel selected from neutral states.
Their presence should be combined with unprecedented, categorically well-meaning diplomatic efforts undertaken to defuse what's been permitted to become an invitation to Armageddon by the Bush administration's ceaseless, reckless emphasis on war, war, war.
BY REMAINING SILENT ABOUT BUSH'S WAR, CONSERVATIVES AND MODERATES WILL UNWITTINGLY RADICALIZE AMERICA
It's very interesting that ultraconservatives here who were so ludicrous as to worry about "socialist" policies coming from the objectively Republican-Lite Clinton administration are about to totally hand leadership of the massive anti-war movement that will certainly emerge if Bush attacks Iraq...to REAL socialists who will assume the role by grateful default.
Because the Right (except for Pat Buchanan and anti-interventionist Libertarians) will NOT voice objection to a folly that absolutely NEEDS to be resisted, by all the vital, touchstone criteria.
Additionally, many soft Democrats and even nominal liberals won't speak out.
However, an aggressive, morally wrong, illegal war WILL be popularly resisted, from all portions of the political spectrum, at first spontaneously.
But, with the Vietnam-era model clearly applicable, the Marxist Left will quickly and effectively give organized format to that resistance.
Consider the assessment of the Iraq situation to which I've provided a link. It's by a socialist tendency that I personally have no allegiance to...but it's an outstandingly lucid, compelling critique.
Unless elements in the middle can come up with equally good arguments -- or ANY at all -- the huge movement that will become evident by early winter, at the latest, will become a force pushing American politics in general to the left.
By staying silent, and thereby providing no alternative antiwar perspective, the radical, anti-imperialist outlook will unquestionably dominate.
Around St. Paul: Aging naval heroes finally defeat the skeptics
Good news from Hawaii put an extra swagger in the slowing steps of a band of World War II naval heroes from St. Paul last week.
Ten surviving crew members of the USS Ward had gathered in Maplewood for their annual reunion, where they relive the moment of glory when their ship sank a Japanese sub near Pearl Harbor just minutes before the sneak attack on Dec. 7, 1941.
They call themselves the "First Shot Club," in honor of the 4-inch shell that gunners from the USS Ward fired into the minisub that Sunday morning.
For many years, though, a tiny wave of doubt rippled through their placid seas. Some not on board that morning, including top Navy brass, weren't sure that the Ward had actually sunk the sub, especially when 61 years passed without the sub being located.
But such skepticism was forever submerged last month, when searchers near Hawaii found the two-man sub on the ocean floor. Sure enough, there was the hole in its conning tower, right where the Ward crew members said it would be.
A highlight of Thursday's reunion lunch was a video that University of Hawaii researchers had made of the sunken sub, lying 1,200 feet below the surface.
"We've proven to the world that the Ward did sink that sub," said Ken Swedberg, 81, a St. Paul native who spends part of the year in Texas.
The video brought back vivid memories for the crew members.
Ray Nolde was manning the No. 3 gun that morning, training the 4-inch gun from side to side. A first shot from the No. 1 gun had missed the sub as it emerged just yards from the Ward.
But the next shot, from gun No. 3, was dead on.
"Hey Ray, do you see the hole you put in the side of that sub?" called out Orville Ethier, 80, St. Paul, as the video played. Nolde, of St. Paul, is 86.
Frank Hajdu, 80, who flew in from Tennessee for the reunion, looked carefully at the sunken sub. "Both torpedoes are still on the sub; we got it before it could do its job," he said.
85 St. Paulites aboard
About 85 men from St. Paul, all members of the 47th Division of the local Naval Reserve, were aboard the Ward as it patrolled the mouth of Pearl Harbor in 1941, about 2 miles out from the naval base. It was a restricted area, and U.S. subs had been instructed to surface before entering the harbor.
"It's something you don't forget; it's pretty much like a movie in my mind," said Russell Reetz, 85, of St. Paul. "I was standing under the gun and I saw the splash when it hit the sub. To my recollection, it was not completely out of the water, but just starting to surface. . . . I thought it was going to ram us, it was that close. It listed to port, righted itself, then started to go down."
After the shot, the captain ordered depth charges loosed against the sub.
The Ward radioed word of the encounter to headquarters, which asked for confirmation. No immediate action was taken, and just over an hour later, bombs began falling on the ships in the harbor.
Some of the enemy planes passed over the Ward.
"Two planes flew over us; I could see the whites of the pilots' eyes. They dropped bombs, but didn't hit us. The explosion, though, picked up the stern of the ship and dropped it down," Reetz remembered.
Reetz and another former crew member, Will Lehner of Stevens Point, Wis., went to Hawaii two years ago with a National Geographic expedition that searched for the sunken sub. Robert Ballard, the underwater explorer who found the Titanic and the Bismarck, led the trek.
"I kept telling them they were looking too far out," Lehner said. Indeed, the ship was found closer to the harbor, where Lehner and Reetz had suggested they look.
"It's up to the Japanese Navy, now, to decide whether to raise the sub," Lehner said. "I'd really like to be there if they do bring it up. I think it would bring even more closure."
Group losing members
About 20 crew members who were aboard the Ward on Dec. 7, 1941, remain alive. Five or six who still live in St. Paul meet for breakfast once a month; even more attend the annual luncheon. The group was formed in 1946 when most of the men returned home. For years the annual meeting was on the Saturday night closest to Dec. 7. Several years ago it was moved to a September afternoon because some of the guys spend the winter in the South and the others didn't want to drive on icy roads.
In addition to 10 former crew members, 40 others -- including several wives, children and friends -- attended Thursday's lunch.
The group has been losing members at an increasing pace, and there was concern Thursday abut Ed Bukrey, who'd flown in from Texas for the reunion but was hospitalized Wednesday night with chest pains.
He missed the lunch, but several shipmates stopped by his hospital room afterward.
"I was very happy with the results of my hospital care, and the guys stopping over afterward was an added bonus," said Bukrey, who was released from the hospital Thursday night. He intended to visit relatives in the area before returning to Texas today.
"My health hasn't been the greatest -- I've had two triple-bypass operations -- so I didn't think I'd get to the reunion. But then I was feeling pretty well and decided to go," he said. "It's a joy just to get together, share some of the stories and share a few drinks. This is a very unique group, with a limited membership."
War stories
Hajdu, too, said he looked forward to the annual gathering so he could see his friends and hear the stories. "But no two guys tell the story the same way," he cautioned.
Hajdu, Lehner and John Merthan of Woodbury talked quietly of dead comrades and then laughed at some of their lighter moments at sea.
They recalled shooting at a plane passing over near Guadalcanal. Good thing they missed; it was one of ours.
They remembered dropping depth charges after detecting what appeared to be an enemy sub. Instead, it was a school of fish. "We cleaned them and had them for lunch," Merthan said.
They told how former President John Kennedy, then a P.T. boat commander, came aboard the Ward once to get supplies. "It didn't mean anything to us at the time," Hajdu said.
Merthan told how the Ward once backed into the USS Enterprise while trying to leave port.
"I've never heard these stories before," his wife, Phyllis Merthan, said.
Thanks, it's good to be back. There was a palpible tension on the flight that day but I was surprised how empty the flight was. Nobody on the plane talked about it but I think it was unsaid. When I got to the meeting I was attending that same feeling of sadness and quiet thought. It was a very hard day indeed. Glad to be back though definately. That's cool that you met one of the guys from the Ward. It would be interesting to talk to them.
Veterans for Peace held its national convention in Duluth in late August.
Their website gives a lot of compelling views on why men and women who've served our country in battle are increasingly of the opinion that the WRONG way to serve it now would be to invade Iraq.
Iraq is the Bush family's personal war. It has nothing to do with dictators, world security, weapons of mass destruction, or anything else presently being sold to the public. There are dozens of countries around the globe committing the same crimes to which the US government has turned a blind eye to. To invade that place on behalf of an oil family's bank account would be a tragic waste of lives, money and resources.
They said the same thing about Afghanistan. No proof, only opinon, no facts, just quotes from writers, actors and those tucked safely away on a campus somewhere.
It would be alot of fun. I was never there when fleet week was going on. One year I thought I'd get a chance to partake in some of the festivities I was on leave and I couldn't really tell my family that I was going to hang around for that. I will take some of the sights of fleet week in one of these days.
Looks like a good time to me. I haven't seen the Blue Angels in a long time. I would love to go see those guys.
Last time I remember seeing someone on the Seal Team I was working up quite a sweat. Our skipper thought the weight reduction program should be a workout with the Seal Team 3 times a week. I never knew that a sweat puddle 3 feet in diameter could be formed in an hour! I was in the best shape of my life, too bad I did not have the "correct build" to stay in. It was the tape measure that got me out, even though I could get an outstanding on the PRT. Clinton's military - it's not how well you can shoot or perform, it's how good you look in a uniform. Funny thing is, they said they wanted me back in the reserves a year later and said I could get back in with a waiver.
Anyways, when are we renting the party bus to the air show and how many of us are going? :)
I was lucky enough once to watch them practice once and got to meet a few of the pilots and b.s wit them. I also have seen them at Osh Kosh.It's a great show even if your not into flying like some of us :) My wife isn't a big airplane buff but she thought it was cool.
Can you imagine this board on the ride out to S.D ? That would be either a long trip or a hoot.
There are teddy bears and high school rings And old photographs that mamas bring Of daddies with their young boy, playing ball There's combat boots that he used to wear When he was sent over there There's 50,000 names carved in the wall
There's cigarettes, and cans of beer And notes that say "I miss you dear" And children who don't say anything at all There's purple hearts and packs of gum And fatherless daughters & fatherless sons There's 50,000 names carved in the wall
They come from all across this land In pickup trucks and mini vans Searching for a boy from long ago They scan the wall and find his name Teardrops fall like pouring rain Silently they leave a gift and go
There's stars of David and rosary beads And crucifixion figurines Flowers of all kinds large and small There's a Boy Scout badge and a merit pin Little American flags waving in the wind And there's 50,000 names carved in the wall
It appears the majority is correct. If it had ruled otherwise it would amount to judicial legislation. The government cannot allow its agents to make promises that are not supported by law. You can imagine what kind of mess it would be if the government had to pay for every promise not supported by statutory authority made by one of its agents.
Geez guys! Get a grip! I've seen the F-bomb dropped so much on this board lately I thought I was reading the lyrics to an Eminem song. Where's the love?
There are several Veteran's Organizations that are recognized by Congress and have charters, and I respect all of them. VATW is NOT one of them,
So some veterans are better than others? What kind of a fucked-up logic is that? What an elitist and intolerant way to think.
Now be a good little prick and get lost, because this is a room where people either contribute stories and info for the benefit of Veterans, or they post about their own experiences AS Veterans.
The first amemdment is such a wonderful thing--- would you prefer if I only said things that are in agreeance with your stance, Saddam? That would be Utopian wouldn't it? You're a real piece of work billfold--- get away from the mirror, put down the air-guitar, come on out from under the security blanky and experience the real world for a little while.
You do neither, because...A) you don't HAVE anything interesting to say and... B) You Sure Ain't, a Veteran.
A) Yet you respond to everything I type here in your little cyber-world don't you billfold? If it wasn't for me you wouldn't have anything to do in life at all. B) No I'm not a veteran--- I'm a pacifist--- as were a great many other people throughout history--- the reason I ridicule our so-called leaders and their vigor for war is that they never bothered to go yet they are willing to sacrifice other's blood for their causes--- a point which evidently sails clear over that thin cranium of yours.
Hey guys (and gals) Thought I'd re-post this story. Kath posted this over on the WOT board. It's a good article and I thought people over here would enjoy it. Remember that as you celebrate Christmas this year, millions of troops are thousands of miles from home. It's lonely and I've been there. It's hard for their families as well.
My Heart On The Line
By Frank Schaeffer
Before my son became a Marine, I never thought much about who was defending me. Now when I read of the war on terrorism or the coming conflict in Iraq, it cuts to my heart. When I see a picture of a member of our military who has been killed, I read his or her name very carefully. Sometimes I cry.
In 1999, when the barrel-chested Marine recruiter showed up in dress blues and bedazzled my son John, I did not stand in the way. John was headstrong, and he seemed to understand these stern, clean men with straight backs and flawless uniforms. I did not. I live on the Volvo-driving, higher education-worshiping North Shore of Boston. I write novels for a living. I have never served in the military.
It had been hard enough sending my two older children off to Georgetown and New York University. John's enlisting was unexpected, so deeply unsettling. I did not relish the prospect of answering the question "So where is John going to college?" from the parents who were itching to tell me all about how their son or daughter was going to Harvard. At the private high school John attended, no other students were going into the military.
"But aren't the Marines terribly Southern?" asked one perplexed mother while standing next to me at the brunch following graduation. "What a waste, he was such a good student," said another parent. One parent (a professor at a nearby and rather famous university) spoke up at a school meeting and suggested that the school should "carefully evaluate what went wrong."
When John graduated from three months of boot camp on Parris Island, 3,000 parents and friends were on the parade deck stands. We parents and our Marines not only were of many races but also were representative of many economic classes. Many were poor. Some arrived crammed in the backs of pickups, others by bus. John told me that a lot of parents could not afford the trip.
We in the audience were white and Native American. We were Hispanic, Arab and African American and Asian. We were former Marines wearing the scars of battle, or at least baseball caps emblazoned with battles' names. We were Southern whites from Nashville and skinheads from New Jersey, black kids from Cleveland wearing ghetto rags and white ex-cons with ham-hock forearms defaced by jailhouse tattoos. We would not have been mistaken for the educated and well-heeled parents gathered on the lawns of John's private school a half-year before.
After graduation one new Marine told John, "Before I was a Marine, if I had ever seen you on my block I would've probably killed you just because you were standing there." This was a serious statement from one of John's good friends, an African American ex-gang member from Detroit who, as John said, "would die for me now, just like I'd die for him."
My son has connected me to my country in a way that I was too selfish and insular to experience before. I feel closer to the waitress at our local diner than to some of my oldest friends. She has two sons in the Corps. They are facing the same dangers as my boy. When the guy who fixes my car asks me how John is doing, I know he means it. His younger brother is in the Navy.
Why were I and the other parents at my son's private school so surprised by his choice? During World War II, the sons and daughters of the most powerful and educated families did their bit. If the immorality of the Vietnam War was the only reason those lucky enough to go to college dodged the draft, why did we not encourage our children to volunteer for military service once that war was done?
Have we wealthy and educated Americans all become pacifists? Is the world a safe place? Or have we just gotten used to having somebody else defend us? What is the future of our democracy when the sons and daughters of the janitors at our elite universities are far more likely to be put in harm's way than are any of the students whose dorms their parents clean?
I feel shame because it took my son's joining the Marine Corps to make me take notice of who is defending me. I feel hope because perhaps my son is part of a future "greatest generation." As the storm clouds of war gather, at least I know that I can look the men and women in uniform in the eye. My son is one of them. He is the best I have to offer. He is my heart.
Frank Schaeffer is a writer. His latest book, co-written with his son, Marine Cpl. John Schaeffer, is "Keeping Faith: A Father-Son Story About Love and the United States Marine Corps
I think he was ashamed for his own outlook on the service. It's an atttiude that is sadly common in some circles. I agree though and it's an interesting outlook and a great story I think.
Anyway, If I don't talk to you before then I hope you and your family have a great Christmas.
Sunday's New York Times Magazine has a column by a writer and editor at the Strib who is an ex-Marine.
It's a complicated story, but he essentially avoided combat in the Gulf because of a knee injury. During his recovery period, he made friends with a Conscientious Objector. The Strib editor was given the option to stay on active duty, or end his hitch. He took the latter.
Now, he's regretting his time in the service and the decision he made to accept his discharge instead of being a Conscientious Objector like his buddy. They guy is a real ditherer.
"I am now 34, though some days I hardly feel like a man," he writes. "I hate myself for feeling manipulated, I hate myself for joining the Marines; and I hate myself for feeling like I chickened out."
I have always been bemused by this veneration of veterans and am cynical of the demand to treat them as humans who have acquired halos.
We have had no conscription into the forces for some time now. Everyone going into the armed forces knows the consequences.
The danger that engineers face working in hazardous nuclear and chemical plants is similar. Firefighters are subject to more life-threatening situations every day. Doctors face hazards and save lives by the hour.
One can argue that Vietnam was an immoral war. Korea was a clash for global dominance. The Gulf war was in defense of oil interests. WWII is considered a noble war and it perhaps is. It defeated fascism. The veterans of that war have gone on to become the pillars of US society and reaped immense benefit from their participation.
I am too scared to take up arms and fight wars and fires and all those dangerous things. I hire the armed forces to protect my value system and me.
The guys who built my house climbed heights and risked their lives doing so. I see no one shedding tears for them – they have no free tuition and other benefits.
Capitalism dictates that monetary compensation is commensurate with public need and demand. If veterans are short changed and society need their services, the market forces will kick in and adjust the imbalances. What is all the whining about?? Adam Smith philosophy will sort things out!!
The danger that engineers face working in hazardous nuclear and chemical plants is similar.
Really ? How many nuke and chemical plant workers have died in the line of duty ? I am sure then we will be seeing a wall with 50,000 plus names on it to commemerate them.
It's hard to discuss anything with someone so cynical who is filled with disdain and hate.
Nobody said they have halo's or are any better then anyone. They have been through things the guys building your roof didn't have to go through unless someone happened to be firing live rounds at them as they nailed shingles in which case I suggest you find a better neighborhood.
This thread is for people who have concerns about VET issues or whom want to share experiences and you're of course welcome to participate as you don't have to be a VET to have those concerns.
You stated that you pay the soilders to defend you and that is true. It's also true that it's an all volunteer force. One can support the people who went when asked even if you disagree with the war. They didn't have a choice if they were already in. All that's asked by most vets and soilders is that you support their efforts to do so and support the promises that were made to them. You of course have the option to do the opposite.
"The danger that engineers face working in hazardous nuclear and chemical plants is similar."
That's funny. I can see you have not done your homework. Unless, of course, you mean the HAZARDOUS ones outside the U.S. I was a nuclear engineer for 6 years. I received less radiation in 6 years of operating than in one year of background radiation from the earth. 3-mile island was a "catastrophy" and resulted in ZERO deaths and ZERO injuries. So where's the danger?
Hear's Something That Should Get Every Veteran Steamed!
You really should be sitting down when you read this one.
Gold Star Mothers is an organization made up of women whose sons were killed
in military combat during service in the United States armed forces. Recently a delegation of New York State Gold Star Mothers made a trip to Washington, DC to discuss various concerns with their elected representatives. According to published reports, there was only one politician who refused to meet with these ladies.
Can you guess which politician that might be? Was it New York Senator Charles Schumer? Nope, he met with them. Try again. Do you know anyone serving in the Senate who has never showed anything but contempt for our military? Do you happen to know the name of any politician in Washington who's husband once wrote of his loathing for the military? Now you're getting warm! You got it!
None other than the Queen herself, Hillary Rotten Clinton. She refused repeated requests to meet with the Gold Star Mothers. Now, please don't tell me you're surprised. This woman wants to be president of the United States-and there is a huge percentage of voters who are eager to help her
achieve that goal.
May you sleep in peace always...and please...hug or thank a Veteran for that
privilege. Think about this one!!! Don't forget, our girl, Hillary Rodham Clinton, as a New York Senator, now comes under this fancy congressional Retirement and Staffing Plan. It's common knowledge that, in order for her to establish NYS residency, they purchased a million+ dollar house in upscale Chappaqua, NY. Makes sense. Now, they are entitled to Secret Service protection for life. Still makes sense. Here is where it becomes interesting. The mortgage payments hover at about $10,000 per month. BUT, an
extra residency had to be built within the acreage in order to house the Secret Service agents. The Clinton's now charge the Secret Service $10,000 monthly rent for the use of said Secret Service residence and that rent is just about equal to their mortgage payment, meaning that we, the tax payers,
are paying the Clinton's mortgage, their transportation, their safety and security, their 12 man staff, and it's all perfectly legal.
Gibberish City.
Right next to Best Buy.
And Target.
so that's what that is out there on the 394 frontage road in minnetonka just west of ridgedale. i often wondered about that.
Tom Paine.
The Sons of Liberty.
The Boston Tea Party.
The essence of self-determination and independence upon which America is founded.
In addition to international law, these are the things/values our nation would be trampling underfoot if we allowed George Bush to launch a war against Iraq.
Take a minute to seriously ponder the staggering wrong such aggression would entail:
It's being suggested, with straightfaced seriousness, that we invade and bomb a sovereign foreign country, and "implement a regime change," just because we don't like its leader.
Well, it goes without saying that there are infinitely larger numbers of people on this planet who fear and despise George W. Bush than Saddam Hussein.
Think not? When's the last time you saw an Iraqi flag being torched in an angry street demonstration somewhere in the world. It's always Old Glory, and effigies of either Dubya or Uncle Sam.
Should those countless souls on Earth who have often very compelling reason to dislike us...organize militarily to attack the United States, and get rid of our president?
Actually, some of them have already done the former. We know them as "terrorists".
And, as we're speaking of self-evident truths, consider this:
An American attack on Iraq would unquestionably bring about more violent harm and death to far more innocent people than would result if Iraq were left entirely alone, not provoked or interfered with in any way.
It's simply a propaganda slander that Iraq has aggressive designs on its neighbors, or on anyone else.
If ever there was a society that desperately wants to just live in peace, it's Iraq, as damaged as it's been by unrelenting bellicosity from the United States, manifested in a murderous embargo and constant "low intensity" bombings.
Should weapons inspectors be allowed back into Iraq?
Yes, but without Washington's manipulation or ultimatums, under truly independent UN auspices, by highly qualified and reputable personnel selected from neutral states.
Their presence should be combined with unprecedented, categorically well-meaning diplomatic efforts undertaken to defuse what's been permitted to become an invitation to Armageddon by the Bush administration's ceaseless, reckless emphasis on war, war, war.
"Peace" should be the word on everyone's lips.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28903
Oh, oh...
Pat Buchanan's views and mine (at least on this issue) are starting to merge!
I never thought I'd see the day that Dennis would quote worldnetdaily.
::looks out window, looking for flying pigs::
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/sep2002/iraq-s09.shtml
BY REMAINING SILENT ABOUT BUSH'S WAR, CONSERVATIVES AND MODERATES WILL UNWITTINGLY RADICALIZE AMERICA
It's very interesting that ultraconservatives here who were so ludicrous as to worry about "socialist" policies coming from the objectively Republican-Lite Clinton administration are about to totally hand leadership of the massive anti-war movement that will certainly emerge if Bush attacks Iraq...to REAL socialists who will assume the role by grateful default.
Because the Right (except for Pat Buchanan and anti-interventionist Libertarians) will NOT voice objection to a folly that absolutely NEEDS to be resisted, by all the vital, touchstone criteria.
Additionally, many soft Democrats and even nominal liberals won't speak out.
However, an aggressive, morally wrong, illegal war WILL be popularly resisted, from all portions of the political spectrum, at first spontaneously.
But, with the Vietnam-era model clearly applicable, the Marxist Left will quickly and effectively give organized format to that resistance.
Consider the assessment of the Iraq situation to which I've provided a link. It's by a socialist tendency that I personally have no allegiance to...but it's an outstandingly lucid, compelling critique.
Unless elements in the middle can come up with equally good arguments -- or ANY at all -- the huge movement that will become evident by early winter, at the latest, will become a force pushing American politics in general to the left.
By staying silent, and thereby providing no alternative antiwar perspective, the radical, anti-imperialist outlook will unquestionably dominate.
'Bill - Fold' 9/12/02 4:20am
Well said, Bill. Bravo, ditto, roger and amen sir.
Thought you might enjoy this story Bill.
Around St. Paul: Aging naval heroes finally defeat the skeptics
Good news from Hawaii put an extra swagger in the slowing steps of a band of World War II naval heroes from St. Paul last week.
Ten surviving crew members of the USS Ward had gathered in Maplewood for their annual reunion, where they relive the moment of glory when their ship sank a Japanese sub near Pearl Harbor just minutes before the sneak attack on Dec. 7, 1941.
They call themselves the "First Shot Club," in honor of the 4-inch shell that gunners from the USS Ward fired into the minisub that Sunday morning.
For many years, though, a tiny wave of doubt rippled through their placid seas. Some not on board that morning, including top Navy brass, weren't sure that the Ward had actually sunk the sub, especially when 61 years passed without the sub being located.
But such skepticism was forever submerged last month, when searchers near Hawaii found the two-man sub on the ocean floor. Sure enough, there was the hole in its conning tower, right where the Ward crew members said it would be.
A highlight of Thursday's reunion lunch was a video that University of Hawaii researchers had made of the sunken sub, lying 1,200 feet below the surface.
"We've proven to the world that the Ward did sink that sub," said Ken Swedberg, 81, a St. Paul native who spends part of the year in Texas.
The video brought back vivid memories for the crew members.
Ray Nolde was manning the No. 3 gun that morning, training the 4-inch gun from side to side. A first shot from the No. 1 gun had missed the sub as it emerged just yards from the Ward.
But the next shot, from gun No. 3, was dead on.
"Hey Ray, do you see the hole you put in the side of that sub?" called out Orville Ethier, 80, St. Paul, as the video played. Nolde, of St. Paul, is 86.
Frank Hajdu, 80, who flew in from Tennessee for the reunion, looked carefully at the sunken sub. "Both torpedoes are still on the sub; we got it before it could do its job," he said.
85 St. Paulites aboard
About 85 men from St. Paul, all members of the 47th Division of the local Naval Reserve, were aboard the Ward as it patrolled the mouth of Pearl Harbor in 1941, about 2 miles out from the naval base. It was a restricted area, and U.S. subs had been instructed to surface before entering the harbor.
"It's something you don't forget; it's pretty much like a movie in my mind," said Russell Reetz, 85, of St. Paul. "I was standing under the gun and I saw the splash when it hit the sub. To my recollection, it was not completely out of the water, but just starting to surface. . . . I thought it was going to ram us, it was that close. It listed to port, righted itself, then started to go down."
After the shot, the captain ordered depth charges loosed against the sub.
The Ward radioed word of the encounter to headquarters, which asked for confirmation. No immediate action was taken, and just over an hour later, bombs began falling on the ships in the harbor.
Some of the enemy planes passed over the Ward.
"Two planes flew over us; I could see the whites of the pilots' eyes. They dropped bombs, but didn't hit us. The explosion, though, picked up the stern of the ship and dropped it down," Reetz remembered.
Reetz and another former crew member, Will Lehner of Stevens Point, Wis., went to Hawaii two years ago with a National Geographic expedition that searched for the sunken sub. Robert Ballard, the underwater explorer who found the Titanic and the Bismarck, led the trek.
"I kept telling them they were looking too far out," Lehner said. Indeed, the ship was found closer to the harbor, where Lehner and Reetz had suggested they look.
"It's up to the Japanese Navy, now, to decide whether to raise the sub," Lehner said. "I'd really like to be there if they do bring it up. I think it would bring even more closure."
Group losing members
About 20 crew members who were aboard the Ward on Dec. 7, 1941, remain alive. Five or six who still live in St. Paul meet for breakfast once a month; even more attend the annual luncheon. The group was formed in 1946 when most of the men returned home. For years the annual meeting was on the Saturday night closest to Dec. 7. Several years ago it was moved to a September afternoon because some of the guys spend the winter in the South and the others didn't want to drive on icy roads.
In addition to 10 former crew members, 40 others -- including several wives, children and friends -- attended Thursday's lunch.
The group has been losing members at an increasing pace, and there was concern Thursday abut Ed Bukrey, who'd flown in from Texas for the reunion but was hospitalized Wednesday night with chest pains.
He missed the lunch, but several shipmates stopped by his hospital room afterward.
"I was very happy with the results of my hospital care, and the guys stopping over afterward was an added bonus," said Bukrey, who was released from the hospital Thursday night. He intended to visit relatives in the area before returning to Texas today.
"My health hasn't been the greatest -- I've had two triple-bypass operations -- so I didn't think I'd get to the reunion. But then I was feeling pretty well and decided to go," he said. "It's a joy just to get together, share some of the stories and share a few drinks. This is a very unique group, with a limited membership."
War stories
Hajdu, too, said he looked forward to the annual gathering so he could see his friends and hear the stories. "But no two guys tell the story the same way," he cautioned.
Hajdu, Lehner and John Merthan of Woodbury talked quietly of dead comrades and then laughed at some of their lighter moments at sea.
They recalled shooting at a plane passing over near Guadalcanal. Good thing they missed; it was one of ours.
They remembered dropping depth charges after detecting what appeared to be an enemy sub. Instead, it was a school of fish. "We cleaned them and had them for lunch," Merthan said.
They told how former President John Kennedy, then a P.T. boat commander, came aboard the Ward once to get supplies. "It didn't mean anything to us at the time," Hajdu said.
Merthan told how the Ward once backed into the USS Enterprise while trying to leave port.
"I've never heard these stories before," his wife, Phyllis Merthan, said.
"These are facts," Hajdu insisted.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/3233748.html
See, we we're the aggressor then too!
::rests head on desk::
LOL !
Thanks, it's good to be back. There was a palpible tension on the flight that day but I was surprised how empty the flight was. Nobody on the plane talked about it but I think it was unsaid. When I got to the meeting I was attending that same feeling of sadness and quiet thought. It was a very hard day indeed. Glad to be back though definately. That's cool that you met one of the guys from the Ward. It would be interesting to talk to them.
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/
Veterans for Peace held its national convention in Duluth in late August.
Their website gives a lot of compelling views on why men and women who've served our country in battle are increasingly of the opinion that the WRONG way to serve it now would be to invade Iraq.
Iraq is the Bush family's personal war. It has nothing to do with dictators, world security, weapons of mass destruction, or anything else presently being sold to the public. There are dozens of countries around the globe committing the same crimes to which the US government has turned a blind eye to. To invade that place on behalf of an oil family's bank account would be a tragic waste of lives, money and resources.
They said the same thing about Afghanistan. No proof, only opinon, no facts, just quotes from writers, actors and those tucked safely away on a campus somewhere.
It would be alot of fun. I was never there when fleet week was going on. One year I thought I'd get a chance to partake in some of the festivities I was on leave and I couldn't really tell my family that I was going to hang around for that. I will take some of the sights of fleet week in one of these days.
Looks like a good time to me. I haven't seen the Blue Angels in a long time. I would love to go see those guys.
Last time I remember seeing someone on the Seal Team I was working up quite a sweat. Our skipper thought the weight reduction program should be a workout with the Seal Team 3 times a week. I never knew that a sweat puddle 3 feet in diameter could be formed in an hour! I was in the best shape of my life, too bad I did not have the "correct build" to stay in. It was the tape measure that got me out, even though I could get an outstanding on the PRT. Clinton's military - it's not how well you can shoot or perform, it's how good you look in a uniform. Funny thing is, they said they wanted me back in the reserves a year later and said I could get back in with a waiver.
Anyways, when are we renting the party bus to the air show and how many of us are going? :)
Party bus to go see an air show?
Think our wives would let us?
:-)
We could probably talk them into it.
I was lucky enough once to watch them practice once and got to meet a few of the pilots and b.s wit them. I also have seen them at Osh Kosh.It's a great show even if your not into flying like some of us :) My wife isn't a big airplane buff but she thought it was cool.
Can you imagine this board on the ride out to S.D ? That would be either a long trip or a hoot.
Is that really Alf? Or is is Sloop or someone?
He seems as stupid as Alf.
God do I miss Alf's gentle touch.
Come here Alfie and give Daddy some loving.
:-)
Hysteria is unbecoming.
You don't have to be a veteran to understand the issues, fold. But I wasn't commenting on that I was commenting on your state of mind.
http://jamesglaser.org/2002/p20021106.html
Why many veterans despise Dubya.
My heartfelt thanks to all of those that have served this country and it's people.
God bless you all.
50,000 NAMES
There are teddy bears and high school rings
And old photographs that mamas bring
Of daddies with their young boy, playing ball
There's combat boots that he used to wear
When he was sent over there
There's 50,000 names carved in the wall
There's cigarettes, and cans of beer
And notes that say "I miss you dear"
And children who don't say anything at all
There's purple hearts and packs of gum
And fatherless daughters & fatherless sons
There's 50,000 names carved in the wall
They come from all across this land
In pickup trucks and mini vans
Searching for a boy from long ago
They scan the wall and find his name
Teardrops fall like pouring rain
Silently they leave a gift and go
There's stars of David and rosary beads
And crucifixion figurines
Flowers of all kinds large and small
There's a Boy Scout badge and a merit pin
Little American flags waving in the wind
And there's 50,000 names carved in the wall
--Jamie O'Hara
Bill:
Those dorks sitting at the bench know this is wrong, why did they rule this way?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021120/ap_on_re_us/vets_lifetime_care_2
It appears the majority is correct. If it had ruled otherwise it would amount to judicial legislation. The government cannot allow its agents to make promises that are not supported by law. You can imagine what kind of mess it would be if the government had to pay for every promise not supported by statutory authority made by one of its agents.
Come on Jethro, we all know they legislate from the bench all the time!
we know it. The cases in which they do legislate usually won't cost the government much money, unlike this case.
Congress can take care of it if they so choose. And that is where the issue should be.
You are so damn stupid, fold.
Geez guys! Get a grip! I've seen the F-bomb dropped so much on this board lately I thought I was reading the lyrics to an Eminem song. Where's the love?
I love you, CSC.
http://www.interventionmag.com/vet/
Veterans against the Iraq war...
From the above link---
Current poll results
Looks like more than 3 to me.
Why would anyone mock a vet's organization? Your friend was right billfold--- you really are deranged and need help--- like of the counseling kind.
Undoubtedly you've heard of the British finding, published in a major medical journal, that Gulf War Syndrome doesn't actually
exist.
So what in the heck are 100,000 of our 700,000 Gulf War vets afflicted with?
Reminds me of the benzene railcar spill (with other ingredients never adequately revealed) we had here several years ago.
Fish, birds and other animals died.
People close to where it happened got weirdly ill.
But the official explanation was that there was no provable connection.
Someone out there must know what's actually going on.
Where are the whistleblowers when good people in deep trouble really need them?
So some veterans are better than others? What kind of a fucked-up logic is that? What an elitist and intolerant way to think.
The first amemdment is such a wonderful thing--- would you prefer if I only said things that are in agreeance with your stance, Saddam? That would be Utopian wouldn't it? You're a real piece of work billfold--- get away from the mirror, put down the air-guitar, come on out from under the security blanky and experience the real world for a little while.
A) Yet you respond to everything I type here in your little cyber-world don't you billfold? If it wasn't for me you wouldn't have anything to do in life at all. B) No I'm not a veteran--- I'm a pacifist--- as were a great many other people throughout history--- the reason I ridicule our so-called leaders and their vigor for war is that they never bothered to go yet they are willing to sacrifice other's blood for their causes--- a point which evidently sails clear over that thin cranium of yours.
You do it all the time Duane. Over and out you are.
I'm confused, Sloop sent you a message here?
If so,what was the username?
Hey guys (and gals) Thought I'd re-post this story. Kath posted this over on the WOT board. It's a good article and I thought people over here would enjoy it. Remember that as you celebrate Christmas this year, millions of troops are thousands of miles from home. It's lonely and I've been there. It's hard for their families as well.
Great article!
I'm an idiot and should be ignored.
Bill,
I think he was ashamed for his own outlook on the service. It's an atttiude that is sadly common in some circles. I agree though and it's an interesting outlook and a great story I think.
Anyway, If I don't talk to you before then I hope you and your family have a great Christmas.
Sunday's New York Times Magazine has a column by a writer and editor at the Strib who is an ex-Marine.
It's a complicated story, but he essentially avoided combat in the Gulf because of a knee injury. During his recovery period, he made friends with a Conscientious Objector. The Strib editor was given the option to stay on active duty, or end his hitch. He took the latter.
Now, he's regretting his time in the service and the decision he made to accept his discharge instead of being a Conscientious Objector like his buddy. They guy is a real ditherer.
"I am now 34, though some days I hardly feel like a man," he writes. "I hate myself for feeling manipulated, I hate myself for joining the Marines; and I hate myself for feeling like I chickened out."
I have always been bemused by this veneration of veterans and am cynical of the demand to treat them as humans who have acquired halos.
We have had no conscription into the forces for some time now. Everyone going into the armed forces knows the consequences.
The danger that engineers face working in hazardous nuclear and chemical plants is similar. Firefighters are subject to more life-threatening situations every day. Doctors face hazards and save lives by the hour.
One can argue that Vietnam was an immoral war. Korea was a clash for global dominance. The Gulf war was in defense of oil interests. WWII is considered a noble war and it perhaps is. It defeated fascism. The veterans of that war have gone on to become the pillars of US society and reaped immense benefit from their participation.
I am too scared to take up arms and fight wars and fires and all those dangerous things. I hire the armed forces to protect my value system and me.
The guys who built my house climbed heights and risked their lives doing so. I see no one shedding tears for them – they have no free tuition and other benefits.
Capitalism dictates that monetary compensation is commensurate with public need and demand. If veterans are short changed and society need their services, the market forces will kick in and adjust the imbalances. What is all the whining about?? Adam Smith philosophy will sort things out!!
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/2002/12/000206.html
Veterans mad at Bush...
Hi Bill, Just stopped in for a minute to say hi.
Sorry to hear about your friends passing Bill. My condolences.
Naradar,
Really ? How many nuke and chemical plant workers have died in the line of duty ? I am sure then we will be seeing a wall with 50,000 plus names on it to commemerate them.
It's hard to discuss anything with someone so cynical who is filled with disdain and hate.
Nobody said they have halo's or are any better then anyone. They have been through things the guys building your roof didn't have to go through unless someone happened to be firing live rounds at them as they nailed shingles in which case I suggest you find a better neighborhood.
This thread is for people who have concerns about VET issues or whom want to share experiences and you're of course welcome to participate as you don't have to be a VET to have those concerns.
You stated that you pay the soilders to defend you and that is true. It's also true that it's an all volunteer force. One can support the people who went when asked even if you disagree with the war. They didn't have a choice if they were already in. All that's asked by most vets and soilders is that you support their efforts to do so and support the promises that were made to them. You of course have the option to do the opposite.
"The danger that engineers face working in hazardous nuclear and chemical plants is similar."
That's funny. I can see you have not done your homework. Unless, of course, you mean the HAZARDOUS ones outside the U.S. I was a nuclear engineer for 6 years. I received less radiation in 6 years of operating than in one year of background radiation from the earth. 3-mile island was a "catastrophy" and resulted in ZERO deaths and ZERO injuries. So where's the danger?
Hear's Something That Should Get Every Veteran Steamed!
You really should be sitting down when you read this one.