It was based on fact, fold. members of the organization stopped by the office and were treated rudely. they didn't get to meet with Hillary. what more do you want?
I came to realize on a recent trip where I had to interact with veterans that there exists a caste system among the vets.
The WWII vets - usually on the edge of senility - are the Brahmins. They consider themselves the crème de la crème, brook no upstarts and demand the whole world venerate them. Unsufferable sobs.
Vets of Korea, GulfI and Bosnia ( am sure Afghan vets will fall here too) are the second tier castes.
The Vietnam Vets are still the untouchables - man they still get treated as pariahs.
This caste system manifets itself in their interaction and also in the perception by others around. Perhaps you guys are all cognizant of this - but it caught me by complete surprise.
I think that most vets don't spend a whole lot of time reliving war experience. I've talked to enough who are pleased to sort of shelve that part of their life and have long since moved on. Others really don't want to talk about it at all. They'll accept appreciation and respect that any fellow human being would give another and that would be about all they'd want.
A small minority of WWII Vets carry this "Greatest Generation" attitude to the point they sneer at younger generations for not having "the stuff" that they had. That would get old if I heard a lot of it, but I don't.
you know all veterans fold? I didn't think so. I know some personally that went to the military for the educational benefits and then got out. they never saw combat and basically had a 9-5 job while serving.
You come in this room to insult Veterans, accuse them of whatever it is you are accusing them of and then you act like you can't understand a simple question like, "Your Point"? The point was clear, fold, but apparently you did not get it. I am not here to insult veterans. But I am not here to praise them as demigods, either.
The point was this, fold. Many people joined the military for education benefits or job training or for whatever reason they may have had. Many did not serve in wartime or were ever in any danger whatsoever. Some even balk at being sent to war zones because "that's not what they signed up for." The point is, fold, that veterans are not any different than anyone else. I have no problem honoring those that made a sacrifice but not all veterans have done so.
if you have teenage children - boys especially- you get bombarded by the armed forces with propaganda to join. They promise to pay tuition and do project the image that it is a cruise vacation - and you get paid to take it.
If you are in engineering or medicine , the scholarships provided are truly attractive. There is no combat involved - the recruiter who spoke to my son assured him of it. You will get sent to the frontline but play a role far away from the mayhem. My son asked about body bags and was told that Nam was behind us. And not everyone was frontline.
If they served, they were in danger at ALL TIMES, as anyone can see on the evening news right now, with reservists being called-up by the tens of thousands, all across the country, reservists who joined to avoid Active-Duty, or for some other reason. You can believe that if you want. It is fiction.
ANY veteran who has served honorably for he term of his enlistment has made a tremendous sacrifice. NONSENSE.
I don't think Fold nor anyone thinks that Vets should or even want to be held as demigods. I wouldn't mind holding Demi Moore but that's another story. My point is that those who joined had the possibility of going into combat. When I joined in 86' I had no idea how many places or times I'd be in comabt if ever at all but I knew it was a chance. I went anyway and was. The men and women that do join know that but the ones who don't see combat make sacrifices as well. They missed alot of fun times with friends while they were working in a stock depot 12 hours a day 6 days a week, they did it far from home and in foriegn nations away from family and frineds. They miss Christmas birthdays, etc. The guys with families had it worse. It's hell on a marriage. They do their jobs under dangerous conditions, all the while knowing they'll be moving somewhere else to make new friends or uprooting thier family with the idea always there that the phone could ring and they'll be somewhere possibly at war never to come home again.
And they do it voluntarily, they aren't asking for God like status or to be held up as better, all they ask for is the promises made when they volunteered to be kept.
The men and women that do join know that but the ones who don't see combat make sacrifices as well. They missed alot of fun times with friends while they were working in a stock depot 12 hours a day 6 days a week, they did it far from home and in foriegn nations away from family and frineds.
I have been doing that every year for 2 decades. Lat year I spent 11 whole weeks overseas. Do I get a halo now??
And they do it voluntarily
they are not monetarily compensated? The active duty recruiter who even came to my house to meet with my son laid out an attractive package - would have saved him over $100K. And the benefits he outlined included insurance coverage after service at the best rates I have ever seen.
Did you see combat in Korea L2F? War games and exercises are held and if you are an engineer or doctor you are far removed from the firepower. Was this recruiter lying about all this? I suspected he was.
I have been doing that every year for 2 decades. Lat year I spent 11 whole weeks overseas. Do I get a halo now??
Oooh 11 whole weeks. WoW! How'd you do 11 whole weeks ? Were you unable to call home ? Where did you sleep, in a tent ? did you know when you'd return ? Did you have to relocate your family only to move again 2 weeks after ? Was someone shooting at you ?
It's not about monetary compensation when your in. It's not about halo's or being any better than anyone. It's a contract and it's an agreement. When the other end of the deal isn't being held up you bet I'll take issue with it, you're trying to make an issue out of a non-issue.
Did you see combat in Korea L2F? War games and exercises are held and if you are an engineer or doctor you are far removed from the firepower. Was this recruiter lying about all this? I suspected he was.
Of course not, I did in other places though, most notably S.A, Kuwait and Iraq. Even doctors etc are still exposed to some level of danger, no they aren't on the front lines but they are in ships vulnerable to attack, so are field hospitals, you have to fly in helicopters vulnerable to fire, missles can hit secure areas etc. They are not exposed to the level of danger but there's some.
They are not exposed to the level of danger but there's some.
it is made out to be no worse that driving on a US highway. And the perks like the benefits after service are pretty good.
and see - now you are saying your pain is bigger than mine when you mock my 11 weeks overseas. And hey - I also spent 2 whole weeks in Pine Bluff, Arkansas. Next to a nerve gas repositary. That should rate at least a tin halo.
You're the one who asked about your 11 week business trip and if you deserved a "halo". Please go back and read i never said anyone deserves one. but the two are obviously a bit different isn't it.
it is made out to be no worse that driving on a US highway. And the perks like the benefits after service are pretty good.
Recruiters make excellent used car salesmen too ;)
It's not a huge increased risk for doctors etc. but there's some. It's minimal though.
We MUST leave those boys there, if for no other reason that to make CERTAIN that the selfish and chicken-shit "We Love Saddman" French, are required to see and acknowledge them, in perpetuity.
I agree wholeheartedly. If the families want it though what do we do ? That's a tough call in my book.
We have Vets pissing and moaning here about the US has shortchanged them, has no respect for them and what not.
The plight of the reservists appears to equally pathetic.
This all-volunteer Armed force depends on the services of the cheap reservist it appears.
They get called back repeatedly and are essentially paid rations and military gear .
They include Doctors, pilots , engineers and skilled folks - not just the naive kid who fell for the hardsell of the recruiters and signed away his life to decades of servitude.
I feel sorry for these blokes - and I do owe them a lot for sacrificing so much for guys like me.
Went out to Snelling yesterday to pay my respects to a few particular people. They have the main road lined with flags as well as at the markers. Some I'm sure as some have said here see all the flag waving of late as jingoistic, nationalistic, etc. etc. I doubt many of those know or will ever understand what that symbol means to many people, it's their loss. It's always stunning when you look at all the head stones of those who gave their life or served and have since passed. It's sad and yet gives me hope for this country, when you see the number of those who did and are willing to sacrifice just as they are today it's awe inspiring and sad altogether. Either way it's a waste and a shame but when you see the numbers of those brave souls, a cynic would have to be a little taken aback. Sadly, war always has and always probably will be part of the failings of humanity, I wish not one more stone would ever be placed their but it's probably unrealistic.
Sadly for too many, Memorial day has become just another day off. I'm not saying people should spend the whole day in silence but as someone mentioned the Jaywalking episodes on Leno I bet a good number have no idea why yesterday was a Holiday. How sad.
I don't agree with Bush on this. And I contacted my reps as well to let them know. I should correct you that the overall budget has increased the last 2 years. There was a sizable increase for FY 2002 but 2003's is woefully short for the medical funding. Alot of it's political and I am confident it will be resolved and the benefits will get boosted as they should. It shouldn't have to be nor should it even be a question. I'm not a one issue voter but if you're looking for disagreement on this issue I won't disagree at all.
BTW I don't use the VA. I did when I got out but the red tape and b.s one has to cut through as most govt. administered programs made it enough of a disinsentive to not mess with. I pay for my own coverage and being self employed, the cost for my family is friggen horrific. It's approaching 75% of my house payment.
Wierd that we were just talking about this. The Prez's own panel made some reccomendation to him. I hope he'll listen and get it resolved. I think he will.
Presidential Panel Calls for More Veterans Funding
WASHINGTON — Veterans health care needs consistent funding to deal with increased demand, a presidential panel says in a report.
The panel recommends in a report prepared for release Wednesday that Congress change how it pays for veterans health care to guarantee that most veterans get care and don't have long waits for appointments.
The panel was created in 2001 to improve coordination of health care programs at the departments of Veterans Affairs (search) and Defense.
It recommends further cooperation between VA and the Defense Department to facilitate a veteran's move from active duty health care to VA - but says that's not enough.
"The apparent mismatch in VA between demand for access and available funding is too large to be solved by collaboration alone," the 15-member panel said in its report, portions of which were obtained by The Associated Press. The task force sent its report to President Bush on Monday.
"I would hope the administration, since this is their task force, established by them, embraces what (panel members) have to say and takes some steps to eliminate this mismatch of funding," said Joe Violante, Disabled American Veterans (search) national legislative director.
Rep. Chris Smith, House Veterans Affairs chairman, previously has sponsored legislation to provide full funding. Smith, R-N.J., said Tuesday he wants to help develop the full funding system panel members recommended.
Veterans Affairs health care was opened to all veterans in 1997. The population ballooned from 2.9 million in 1996 to about 6.8 million today.
Bill, you also don't know what's attached to the bill. There always is b.s attached on bills like these. Also it's been a law since 44' that barrs retirees from getting full disability and ful retirement.
http://www.snopes.com/military/goldstar.htm
As if you can believe anything a Clinton says!
As if the Clintons have not done enough to anger the right wing, they also have to make stuff up.
it wasn't made up. it was a story based on fact. a simple misunderstanding at most.
'it was a story based on fact. "
And embellished and twisted with a lot of nasty inferences by one of the kennel of pit bulls at NewsMax.
But, that's not surprising.
It was based on fact, fold. members of the organization stopped by the office and were treated rudely. they didn't get to meet with Hillary. what more do you want?
Oh, Bill:
A member of the Hillary Clinton Goon Squad slapped those Gold Star mothers around. Forced them to change their story.
Man, you're gullible.
They probably said something like "Remember Vince Foster?"
That, too.
I came to realize on a recent trip where I had to interact with veterans that there exists a caste system among the vets.
The WWII vets - usually on the edge of senility - are the Brahmins. They consider themselves the crème de la crème, brook no upstarts and demand the whole world venerate them. Unsufferable sobs.
Vets of Korea, GulfI and Bosnia ( am sure Afghan vets will fall here too) are the second tier castes.
The Vietnam Vets are still the untouchables - man they still get treated as pariahs.
This caste system manifets itself in their interaction and also in the perception by others around. Perhaps you guys are all cognizant of this - but it caught me by complete surprise.
Naradar:
I think that most vets don't spend a whole lot of time reliving war experience. I've talked to enough who are pleased to sort of shelve that part of their life and have long since moved on. Others really don't want to talk about it at all. They'll accept appreciation and respect that any fellow human being would give another and that would be about all they'd want.
A small minority of WWII Vets carry this "Greatest Generation" attitude to the point they sneer at younger generations for not having "the stuff" that they had. That would get old if I heard a lot of it, but I don't.
Naradar,
I've never experienced the "caste" system you alledge between veterans. Perhaps others have but I haven't seen or felt it.
for my good friend, fold:
John Kerry: The Chameleon Senator
By Ted Sampley
U.S. Veteran Dispatch
October-December 1996 Issue
http://www.usvetdsp.com/story10.htm
I'll be sure to send my e-mail of support to our very honorable president, fold.
some veterans have done something for America, others used it for their own benefit.
you know all veterans fold? I didn't think so. I know some personally that went to the military for the educational benefits and then got out. they never saw combat and basically had a 9-5 job while serving.
I see you haven't put me on your discussion ignore list yet. please do.
Sorry Bill Fold.
You want host powers, create your own thread somewhere else.
You come in this room to insult Veterans, accuse them of whatever it is you are accusing them of and then you act like you can't understand a simple question like, "Your Point"? The point was clear, fold, but apparently you did not get it. I am not here to insult veterans. But I am not here to praise them as demigods, either.
The point was this, fold. Many people joined the military for education benefits or job training or for whatever reason they may have had. Many did not serve in wartime or were ever in any danger whatsoever. Some even balk at being sent to war zones because "that's not what they signed up for." The point is, fold, that veterans are not any different than anyone else. I have no problem honoring those that made a sacrifice but not all veterans have done so.
I didn't realize that you could join and not risk having to go to fight and possibly get killed.
very interesting.
tell us more.
if you have teenage children - boys especially- you get bombarded by the armed forces with propaganda to join. They promise to pay tuition and do project the image that it is a cruise vacation - and you get paid to take it.
If you are in engineering or medicine , the scholarships provided are truly attractive. There is no combat involved - the recruiter who spoke to my son assured him of it. You will get sent to the frontline but play a role far away from the mayhem. My son asked about body bags and was told that Nam was behind us. And not everyone was frontline.
If they served, they were in danger at ALL TIMES, as anyone can see on the evening news right now, with reservists being called-up by the tens of thousands, all across the country, reservists who joined to avoid Active-Duty, or for some other reason. You can believe that if you want. It is fiction.
ANY veteran who has served honorably for he term of his enlistment has made a tremendous sacrifice. NONSENSE.
if you have teenage children - boys especially- you get bombarded by the armed forces with propaganda to join.
Oh I forgot to mention that HONORABLE service.
I offer no slander, fold. I offer a point of view that is not utterly biased toward anything labeled veteran.
Jethro,
I don't think Fold nor anyone thinks that Vets should or even want to be held as demigods. I wouldn't mind holding Demi Moore but that's another story. My point is that those who joined had the possibility of going into combat. When I joined in 86' I had no idea how many places or times I'd be in comabt if ever at all but I knew it was a chance. I went anyway and was. The men and women that do join know that but the ones who don't see combat make sacrifices as well. They missed alot of fun times with friends while they were working in a stock depot 12 hours a day 6 days a week, they did it far from home and in foriegn nations away from family and frineds. They miss Christmas birthdays, etc. The guys with families had it worse. It's hell on a marriage. They do their jobs under dangerous conditions, all the while knowing they'll be moving somewhere else to make new friends or uprooting thier family with the idea always there that the phone could ring and they'll be somewhere possibly at war never to come home again.
And they do it voluntarily, they aren't asking for God like status or to be held up as better, all they ask for is the promises made when they volunteered to be kept.
I don't think Fold nor anyone thinks that Vets should or even want to be held as demigods. I think fold does.
Luv2Fly 1/22/03 8:54am
The men and women that do join know that but the ones who don't see combat make sacrifices as well. They missed alot of fun times with friends while they were working in a stock depot 12 hours a day 6 days a week, they did it far from home and in foriegn nations away from family and frineds.
I have been doing that every year for 2 decades. Lat year I spent 11 whole weeks overseas. Do I get a halo now??
And they do it voluntarily
they are not monetarily compensated? The active duty recruiter who even came to my house to meet with my son laid out an attractive package - would have saved him over $100K. And the benefits he outlined included insurance coverage after service at the best rates I have ever seen.
Did you see combat in Korea L2F? War games and exercises are held and if you are an engineer or doctor you are far removed from the firepower. Was this recruiter lying about all this? I suspected he was.
Oooh 11 whole weeks. WoW! How'd you do 11 whole weeks ? Were you unable to call home ? Where did you sleep, in a tent ? did you know when you'd return ? Did you have to relocate your family only to move again 2 weeks after ? Was someone shooting at you ?
It's not about monetary compensation when your in. It's not about halo's or being any better than anyone. It's a contract and it's an agreement. When the other end of the deal isn't being held up you bet I'll take issue with it, you're trying to make an issue out of a non-issue.
Of course not, I did in other places though, most notably S.A, Kuwait and Iraq. Even doctors etc are still exposed to some level of danger, no they aren't on the front lines but they are in ships vulnerable to attack, so are field hospitals, you have to fly in helicopters vulnerable to fire, missles can hit secure areas etc. They are not exposed to the level of danger but there's some.
They are not exposed to the level of danger but there's some.
it is made out to be no worse that driving on a US highway. And the perks like the benefits after service are pretty good.
and see - now you are saying your pain is bigger than mine when you mock my 11 weeks overseas. And hey - I also spent 2 whole weeks in Pine Bluff, Arkansas. Next to a nerve gas repositary. That should rate at least a tin halo.
You're the one who asked about your 11 week business trip and if you deserved a "halo". Please go back and read i never said anyone deserves one. but the two are obviously a bit different isn't it.
Recruiters make excellent used car salesmen too ;)
It's not a huge increased risk for doctors etc. but there's some. It's minimal though.
honestly fold - why do you think I pay taxes? So I can hire folks like you to die for me.
let me get this straight...he's apologizing for saying something he didn't say?
uh...huh?
I agree wholeheartedly. If the families want it though what do we do ? That's a tough call in my book.
The bill will probably die in the house.
I say leave them to rest in peace and serve as a reminder that freedom isn't cheap or free.
Any of you blokes watched 60 Minutes last night??
We have Vets pissing and moaning here about the US has shortchanged them, has no respect for them and what not.
The plight of the reservists appears to equally pathetic.
This all-volunteer Armed force depends on the services of the cheap reservist it appears.
They get called back repeatedly and are essentially paid rations and military gear .
They include Doctors, pilots , engineers and skilled folks - not just the naive kid who fell for the hardsell of the recruiters and signed away his life to decades of servitude.
I feel sorry for these blokes - and I do owe them a lot for sacrificing so much for guys like me.
Looking for an old pal
What ever happened to Bill-Fold?
Thumper 5/17/03 11:09am
Knock it off, Bob.
Knock it off, Bob. You know who you are.
'Bill - Fold' 5/26/03 3:59am
Amen.
Went out to Snelling yesterday to pay my respects to a few particular people. They have the main road lined with flags as well as at the markers. Some I'm sure as some have said here see all the flag waving of late as jingoistic, nationalistic, etc. etc. I doubt many of those know or will ever understand what that symbol means to many people, it's their loss. It's always stunning when you look at all the head stones of those who gave their life or served and have since passed. It's sad and yet gives me hope for this country, when you see the number of those who did and are willing to sacrifice just as they are today it's awe inspiring and sad altogether. Either way it's a waste and a shame but when you see the numbers of those brave souls, a cynic would have to be a little taken aback. Sadly, war always has and always probably will be part of the failings of humanity, I wish not one more stone would ever be placed their but it's probably unrealistic.
Sadly for too many, Memorial day has become just another day off. I'm not saying people should spend the whole day in silence but as someone mentioned the Jaywalking episodes on Leno I bet a good number have no idea why yesterday was a Holiday. How sad.
Bill,
I don't agree with Bush on this. And I contacted my reps as well to let them know. I should correct you that the overall budget has increased the last 2 years. There was a sizable increase for FY 2002 but 2003's is woefully short for the medical funding. Alot of it's political and I am confident it will be resolved and the benefits will get boosted as they should. It shouldn't have to be nor should it even be a question. I'm not a one issue voter but if you're looking for disagreement on this issue I won't disagree at all.
BTW I don't use the VA. I did when I got out but the red tape and b.s one has to cut through as most govt. administered programs made it enough of a disinsentive to not mess with. I pay for my own coverage and being self employed, the cost for my family is friggen horrific. It's approaching 75% of my house payment.
Wierd that we were just talking about this. The Prez's own panel made some reccomendation to him. I hope he'll listen and get it resolved. I think he will.
Should they get two paychecks?
'Bill - Fold' 6/5/03 3:05am
Bill, you also don't know what's attached to the bill. There always is b.s attached on bills like these. Also it's been a law since 44' that barrs retirees from getting full disability and ful retirement.
Anyone else getting posts "doubled" when you post ?
Wouldn't receiving 2 checks drive up the deficit?
Wouldn't that be more debt to balance on the back's of our children?
I don't think it's fair that someone should get two checks.
I also agree with Torp about the budget deficit.
The point isn't to what extent, for all those small wasteful dollar amounts, add up to one big wasteful dollar amount.