Share your thoughts here on the current state of the military
Luv2Fly
LUV, there are three things in your post that don't make sense using todays' standards, and they are frankly disengenuous:
Is that right.
1.    The Soviets and Germans were very poor at adapting because nobody dared speak against their commanders or question their plan something there's no shortage of here.
Nonsense. They didn't dare then, but our boys in most cases, go to Q&A's with Rumsfeld or the Prez, where both the questioners and the questions have been pre-screenedor not allowed at all.
Bill I was talking about the Soviet and German style of fighting. It's common knowlwdge that the Germans and Russians and those who used their style were good fighters. EXCEPT that they did not deviate from orders or battle plan because they didn't encourage and in fact disallowed differing opinions and ideas from the ranks. They were very very poor at adapting and improvising. As far as the press conference last week guess what Bill, the questions weren't prescreened.
2.    Should we put everyone in a tank? Should they have anticipated that and ordered thousands more tanks?
As Rummy himself said, even the "Biggest" Tank, can be blown up!
DUH
Gee thanks for that info Bill, that's my point. You can't armor everything. Well you could but weight restrictions in airlifting equipment would increase dramatically and cut the mobility of a force which is what todays fighting force is all about.
3.    The press today would have savaged Ike. The failed arial bombardments that didn't nuetralize the guns at Pointe Du Hoqe?. Why didn't they know? Thousands died due to that.
That history lesson fails to mention that it was 1944, and the technology to get men ashore and then fighting was Bearskins and Stone Axescompared to today's modern armor, weapons and soldiers;
But they still had floatation devices didn't they. They still had agents on the ground to better assess the targets that didn't get hit. The bomb drops were miles inland. I realize it wasn't smart bomb technoloy but we're talking miles off. Today they'd have screamed for Ike and Roosevelt's head.
The Press was imbedded with the troops, dying themselves in many cases, but NOT allowed to send their reports back home, at
ALL , until they were heavily censored first, and you know that...and lastly, that the technology didn't exist to pinpoint each and every position that they could expect to find the enemy when they reached the shore, not even the tides, and the people were told to expect LOTShigher casualties than they did suffer .
Yes and we were told the casualties in Iraq would be alot higher too. The press also censored themselves to an extent.
Yes of course things, equipment and technology are different. But any good tachtichian will tell you that you have to look at past battles.
So you want more troops, then you complain in the manner they do it. You complain about military pay (which I have agreed) and then you complain it's too much and have the audacity to compare them to mercenaries. Whatever Bill.
Here are the lyrics to the song from the video. Aptly titled Homeward Bound.
Homeward Bound
In the quiet misty morning when the moon has gone to bed, When the sparrows stop their singing and the sky is clear and red. When the summer’s ceased its gleaming, When the corn is past its prime, When adventure’s lost its meaning, I’ll be homeward bound in time.
Bind me not to the pasture, chain me not to the plow. Set me free to find my calling and I’ll return to you somehow.
If you find it’s me you're missing, if you’re hoping I’ll return. To your thoughts I’ll soon be list’ning, and in the road I’ll stop and turn. Then the wind will set me racing as my journey nears its end. And the path I’ll be retracing when I’m homeward bound again.
Bind me not to the pasture, chain me not to the plow. Set me free to find my calling and I’ll return to you somehow.
In the quiet misty morning when the moon has gone to bed, When the sparrows stop their singing, I’ll be homeward bound again.
Bill, I talked about it briefly with Rick on the Iraq thread. What would you like to talk about? It's sad and it sucks and it's a horrible tragedy. The tribute and lyrics I posted were simply that, a tribute to the men and women there, sorry if it bugged you. Of course you use it to score political points.
Well, in an effort to educate you, here is a story on that horrible event... which by the way, did
NOT have to happen...And has NEVER happened, (except when Ronnie Reagan was Prez.), not even in that Guerilla War in Vietnam-Vietnam-Vietnam, Â not in the last Century. Amazing...
Never happened in Vietnam? Well in an effort to educate you, it happened all the time in Vietnam. Ever hear of a "sapper" attack? Here's something to help you.
"During the night of March 27–28, 1971, a Viet Cong sapper company entered the forwardmost position of the U.S. 23d Division without alerting a single guard in a single perimeter bunker. They killed thirty U.S. soldiers and wounded eighty-two in one of the most infamous defeats of the war."
It's going to get uglier over there until the elections. The success in Afghanistan, the world-wide revulsion over the Russian school incident, and the uncertainty over the emerging Palistinian government after Arafat's death have the killers enraged and desperate. Bin Laden is reduced to making videos scolding the terrorists and threatening states that give their votes to Bush.
Terrorists are pouring into Iraq because that's what the war there was designed to do - bring them into one place to be confronted by the greatest military machine the world has ever seen. They're expending lives and money there that are not being expended elsewhere. They know that if Iraq becomes a democracy their dreams of a planetary caliphate are seriously dead. They'll throw everything they can at us. They also know that anti-war protesters, widely publicized and encouraged by the MSM, destroyed America's will to fight in Vietnam. They want to see history repeated. Don't be surprised at anything that happens between now and the end of the month. They are fanatics and they are losing -- that makes them frantically dangerous.
We ARE doing the right thing in Iraq. But this President is blind to the dangers at our borders. They should have been slammed shut on September 12. It's going to take another major catastrophe to wake him up, and that will destroy him in the eyes of history.
LUV, there are three things in your post that don't make sense using todays' standards, and they are frankly disengenuous:
Is that right.
1.    The Soviets and Germans were very poor at adapting because nobody dared speak against their commanders or question their plan something there's no shortage of here.
Nonsense. They didn't dare then, but our boys in most cases, go to Q&A's with Rumsfeld or the Prez, where both the questioners and the questions have been pre-screenedor not allowed at all.
Bill I was talking about the Soviet and German style of fighting. It's common knowlwdge that the Germans and Russians and those who used their style were good fighters. EXCEPT that they did not deviate from orders or battle plan because they didn't encourage and in fact disallowed differing opinions and ideas from the ranks. They were very very poor at adapting and improvising. As far as the press conference last week guess what Bill, the questions weren't prescreened.
2.    Should we put everyone in a tank? Should they have anticipated that and ordered thousands more tanks?
As Rummy himself said, even the "Biggest" Tank, can be blown up!
DUH
Gee thanks for that info Bill, that's my point. You can't armor everything. Well you could but weight restrictions in airlifting equipment would increase dramatically and cut the mobility of a force which is what todays fighting force is all about.
3.    The press today would have savaged Ike. The failed arial bombardments that didn't nuetralize the guns at Pointe Du Hoqe?. Why didn't they know? Thousands died due to that.
That history lesson fails to mention that it was 1944, and the technology to get men ashore and then fighting was Bearskins and Stone Axescompared to today's modern armor, weapons and soldiers;
But they still had floatation devices didn't they. They still had agents on the ground to better assess the targets that didn't get hit. The bomb drops were miles inland. I realize it wasn't smart bomb technoloy but we're talking miles off. Today they'd have screamed for Ike and Roosevelt's head.
The Press was imbedded with the troops, dying themselves in many cases, but NOT allowed to send their reports back home, at
ALL
, until they were heavily censored first, and you know that...and lastly, that the technology didn't exist to pinpoint each and every position that they could expect to find the enemy when they reached the shore, not even the tides, and the people were told to expect LOTShigher casualties than they did suffer
.
Yes and we were told the casualties in Iraq would be alot higher too. The press also censored themselves to an extent.
Yes of course things, equipment and technology are different. But any good tachtichian will tell you that you have to look at past battles.
Â
To compare the fighting in 1944 to what we have today, is totally inappropriate. They are NOT the equal of the other.
But comparing it to Vietnam ad nauseaum apparently is.
The idiocy continues.
So you want more troops, then you complain in the manner they do it. You complain about military pay (which I have agreed) and then you complain it's too much and have the audacity to compare them to mercenaries. Whatever Bill.
You're damned if you do, damned if you don't.
It's more likely you'll be damned if you do than damned of you don't.
[Edited by on Dec 17, 2004 at 07:34pm.]
I don't understand.
don't feel bad, a lot of people feel that way about this war.
Or your posts.
depends on who I'm hanging out with
or what you're high on during that particular day.
1K Joe
I meant I didn't understand what Rick was saying in his post.
In a general sense, you're more likely you're more likely to be damned if you do than dammed if you don't.
on the other hand, its a generally accepted truth of life that its easier to get forgiveness than permission.
That may be one of the most practical observations I've read on this board!
I'll keep that in mind.
[Edited by on Dec 18, 2004 at 08:32pm.]
you can get forgiven, but you can't take it back. what is done is done.
That's pretty obvious.
[Edited by on Dec 18, 2004 at 08:45pm.]
That's the point, crabs.
that it's easier to get forgiven than to get permission is the point of not being able to take it back once something has been done?
In a general sense, you're more likely to be damned if you do than dammed if you don't.
I didn't necessarily mean damned as in condemned to eternity, jethro. It was applying it to everyday life, and bit whimsically.
that is the problem with you liberals. y'all don't realize that damnation isn't something to be whimisical about.
I don't know.
God obviously has a sense of humor.
spiritual blackmail... believe in me or else!
I know God has a sense of humor. That is the only way he could have created fold.
Hey how about that religion thread.
It is Christmas. Religion is everywhere.
Until Then.
Worth a click IMHO
http://www.soldierworks.com/191/untilthen.swf
Here are the lyrics to the song from the video. Aptly titled Homeward Bound.
Homeward Bound
In the quiet misty morning when the moon has gone to bed,
When the sparrows stop their singing and the sky is clear and red.
When the summer’s ceased its gleaming,
When the corn is past its prime,
When adventure’s lost its meaning,
I’ll be homeward bound in time.
Bind me not to the pasture, chain me not to the plow.
Set me free to find my calling and I’ll return to you somehow.
If you find it’s me you're missing, if you’re hoping I’ll return.
To your thoughts I’ll soon be list’ning, and in the road I’ll stop and turn.
Then the wind will set me racing as my journey nears its end.
And the path I’ll be retracing when I’m homeward bound again.
Bind me not to the pasture, chain me not to the plow.
Set me free to find my calling and I’ll return to you somehow.
In the quiet misty morning when the moon has gone to bed,
When the sparrows stop their singing,
I’ll be homeward bound again.
-Music and Lyrics by Marta Keen
Â
Â
I would have posted something, but I never served, and therefore am not allowed an opinion.
Bill, I talked about it briefly with Rick on the Iraq thread. What would you like to talk about? It's sad and it sucks and it's a horrible tragedy. The tribute and lyrics I posted were simply that, a tribute to the men and women there, sorry if it bugged you. Of course you use it to score political points.
Well, in an effort to educate you, here is a story on that horrible event... which by the way, did
NOT
have to happen...And has NEVER happened, (except when Ronnie Reagan was Prez.), not even in that Guerilla War in Vietnam-Vietnam-Vietnam, Â not in the last Century. Amazing...
Never happened in Vietnam? Well in an effort to educate you, it happened all the time in Vietnam. Ever hear of a "sapper" attack? Here's something to help you.
"During the night of March 27–28, 1971, a Viet Cong sapper company entered the forwardmost position of the U.S. 23d Division without alerting a single guard in a single perimeter bunker. They killed thirty U.S. soldiers and wounded eighty-two in one of the most infamous defeats of the war."
http://www.tamu.edu/upress/BOOKS/1995/nolan.htmÂ
Ya know Fold, why don't you haul your very sorry ass over there and show'em how it's done. I'll pay your way.
Now why would this non-story sudddenly appear...? Perhaps to remind us that we should not be thinking so much about IRAQ?
Yea I'm sure that's it.
http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=73449
I'm not going to slog and see if you guys posted this yet or not.
So, I guess he has had enough, since he doesn't even
mention
going back there...
Smart Guy.
Â
Just because he's not quoted ...doesn't mean he didn't say it....
who knows maybe he does want to go back..you don't know!!!!
some people feel or act different then you!!!
Some people don't WANT to go back..but have a "feeling" that they "need" to go back.
Either for the people of iraq, fellow soldiers, or sense of pride.
Â
Now THAT'S funny. You mean duty like smoking dope and stealing military records that you've admitted to in the past, Fold?
Don't lecture me on "Duty" and "Pride"... just drink your pitcher....  K?
Â
then stop your bitchin'! If you "fried" too many of your own brain cells..don't forget that duty and pride sometimes outweighs "being scared"
I understand now why you joined the coast guard.....
Is having a beer is becoming a sin around here?
At the end of the workday, you can toss me a cold one, Kitch.
Won't have to twist my arm.
[Edited 2 times. Most recently by on Jan 4, 2005 at 07:17am.]
Oops...sorry.....NAVY...what was I thinkin' ---oh could I forget the "OLD GOAT"
heh :)
Now you're catch'in on Kitch.
ah thank....I feel the love.
Here, feel this.
Tell Ms. Scribe to pay a little more attention to you.
LOL
It's going to get uglier over there until the elections. The success in Afghanistan, the world-wide revulsion over the Russian school incident, and the uncertainty over the emerging Palistinian government after Arafat's death have the killers enraged and desperate. Bin Laden is reduced to making videos scolding the terrorists and threatening states that give their votes to Bush.
Terrorists are pouring into Iraq because that's what the war there was designed to do - bring them into one place to be confronted by the greatest military machine the world has ever seen. They're expending lives and money there that are not being expended elsewhere. They know that if Iraq becomes a democracy their dreams of a planetary caliphate are seriously dead. They'll throw everything they can at us. They also know that anti-war protesters, widely publicized and encouraged by the MSM, destroyed America's will to fight in Vietnam. They want to see history repeated. Don't be surprised at anything that happens between now and the end of the month. They are fanatics and they are losing -- that makes them frantically dangerous.
We ARE doing the right thing in Iraq. But this President is blind to the dangers at our borders. They should have been slammed shut on September 12. It's going to take another major catastrophe to wake him up, and that will destroy him in the eyes of history.
Well said Muskwa, well said.