The Cherokee Park area was not originally part of St. Paul and initially was sparsely settled. The area began to be developed and to be considered part of St. Paul in the 1860's. In 1874, St. Paul made plans to annex that part of Dakota County lying immediately opposite the city on the west shore of the Mississippi. This territory had been platted as the townsite of West St. Paul in 1856, and the legislature granted it a corporate charter in 1858. The fortunes of West St. Paul were closely tied to the Wabasha (then called Dakota) Street bridge, for its proximity to that structure and downtown St. Paul were its primary attractions. The initial city of West St. Paul, however, did not prove to be as popular as its promoters had hoped and it did not develop a substantial tax base. In 1862, the state legislature revoked West St. Paul's charter. The surrounding township, also named West St. Paul, absorbed the former city's territory. St. Paul's interest in the City of West St. Paul reportedly stemmed from its concern over law enforcement. The area lay outside the jurisdiction of St. Paul police, so that criminals often evaded apprehension simply by crossing the Wabasha Street Bridge. By annexing the land, the city hoped to bring law and order to the wild west side of the Mississippi. St. Paul also had another motive for considering the West St. Paul territory. Industrial sites which were adjacent to downtown and had access to rail and river connections were becoming increasingly scarce on the east side of the Mississippi in the 1870's. The west side river flats, by contrast, were undeveloped and obviously had tremendous industrial potential. By acquiring the west side lands, the City Council hoped to assure St. Paul's future industrial and manufacturing growth. In 1874, voters in both Ramsey and Dakota counties overwhelmingly approved the proposition to transfer Old West St. Paul to Ramsey County. The city began constructing a flood wall along the river front in the 1880's. Industrial growth was further encouraged by the Minnesota and Northwestern Railroad, which built a bridge over the Mississippi in 1886 to introduce rail service to the area. Upper middle class houses were built on the bluff ridge. More modest "mechanics" homes were located inland. Cherokee Park and Lookout Park were acquired by the city in 1903-1906.
The Minnesota Fighting Saints played at the Civic Center, now Xcel Engergy Center. Katarina Witt, a German doll, has skated there in the Stars on Ice shows. What was once called Seven Corners because of seven streets converging there now has five streets. Star crossed. Forepaughs Restaurant is near by. Bring to the fore. The RNC was held at the Xcel.
Just playing devil's advocate for you fine folks. :sillygrin:
My best friend's husband was in that restaurant and was picked up by the truck's bumper and pushed through a brick wall in the rear of that restaurant. He lived. It happened on July 28, 1966. I delivered a baby boy the next day.
The stairs are gone, but the memories live on. And it is Delos that runs into Prospect Park.
There was a shoe shop in that area of the West Side where we bought our oxfords to wear with our school uniforms.
Good one about the St Paul Saints, OT. And ice skater. I was just watching the Women's Figure Skating national champions last night, weren't they just here last year at the Exel. It was a big deal.
This is the preview. BEAUMONT STREET Platted as Vine Street on Dayton's Bluff, the name was changed by the city council in 1872 in honor of Joseph I. Beaumont (1827-1905),
further info is that he was a city councilman, chief fire warden and Ramsey Count assessor. He was generally liked and is remembered as a quiet, pleasant man.
Your post made me think of something, queenmalley. Boxmeyer's book, "On the Street Where You Live". Do you suppose they hid it on a street and not in a park? None of the clues so far mention it's in a park.
Bock. I keep losing my connection. I just LOVE (not) Comcast's new TV commercials where they say don't go with DishTV because it will freeze up with funky weather and storms, etc., and Comcast won't. BS. When it's really cold like this or is very damp and snowy or the wind is blowing bad my TV picture freezes, goes to funny squares, looses sound, my dial-up won't work, blah, blah, blah.
It's getting to where I'm hating Comcast as much as I do Qwest. Not to mention Comcast is ROBBING me just to have a telephone!!!!
Enkneeweigh, google "Tour Saint Paul West Side." I can't get it to load here on a dial-up to get a link. It's by Historic Saint Paul and the Minnesota Humanities Commission. They also have one that includes SH - "Tour Saint Paul East Side to Lowertown."
Enkneeweigh, there are many similarities, sameness and likenesses to SH. A guy by the the name of like Yoerg - something like that - had the very first brewery, did the cave thing and even had his house overlooking his brewery like Hamm did.
And it was the Dakota, now Wabasha, Bridge the crooks went over. My error. I read so much I can't remember it all.
I'm lost. I'm outta BC pretty much, back in SH, but still thinking Chair-O-Key, or maybe Prospect which I can't find diddle about.
Actaully, the street car turnaround was up on the bluffs and at Annapolis. You'll find that if you google about the WS Flats.
I like thinking the street cars more than the train because I don't think those trains at SH carried passengers.
I need to google Castle Royale and there was another club near by, I think, that has since been torn down. I can see the picture of it, but can't remember a thing about it I read. But it was a doozy for folks to come to.
I really like the train and north star noodle for SH. I think they make sense and work well. But, I just can't see Maria as the answer to the gangster's moll. Most of the Marie/Mary/Maria's mentioned here weren't gangster girlfriends. And even if you take the generous approach and say moll is slang for woman, you still have to consider that most of the men we're mentioning were not gangsters.
Another thing, the west side was was first settled by French-Canadians, followed by Germans, then Irish.
"There are many [by green - caves], most now covered or filled, in which people once used to grow mushrooms,age cheese, store beer (the Yoerg Brewery was built right into the bluffs a short distance to the west)... A big cave right at the Wabasha curve has been a speakeasy and nightclub off and on for decades [by green - Castle Royale]."
Not that it's not at SH, but... I don't know. But I'm back at SH, Chair-O-Key and/or Prospect and outta BC.
I'm tired! I've been running all over the place this Hunt! :smile:
When I went to bed last night I was at a loss and then I get up this morning and read all these noodles and now I'm thinking what a bunch of smart people you are and I mean it I think I need to spend a lot more time googling.
"Come in and meet our Scandinavian Trolls (guardians of the caves and woodlands). DonÂ’t dare call them ugly...they are beautiful and sensitive. YouÂ’ll surely want to take one home."
I was on Lilydale I don't know how many Clues ago and now can't even remember why, but it fit. As Chair-O-Key and Lilydale are now united with a path and the whole park thing is called Harriet Island/Lilydale Regional Park and includes even Chair-O-Key. Ittiz like a three park mix thighy.
Lilydale could be the western boundary and Wabasha could be the eastern boundary and it would be Chair-O-Key. With Castle Royale at the bottom of Chair-O-Key.
I *think* many stars once played the other bar/speakeasy I can't remember. I'd love to google but would prolly lose my connection. May risk it. It's bugging me, that place.
A surreal climate enveloped MinnesotaÂ’s capital as these thugs and thieves mingled with the good citizens of St. Paul. Maccabee describes speakeasies and criminal hangouts dotting the landscape, from a casino called the Hollyhocks Club on South Mississippi Boulevard to the Castle Royal nightclub at the Wabasha Street caves in west St. Paul. A popular joint called the Green Dragon sat at the corner of University and Snelling in the Midway district, while the Commodore Hotel, near the tony mansions of Cathedral Hill, became a choice watering hole as well. Downtown, the Green Lantern was a notorious hangout, operated by local gangster Harry Sawyer, whose work as an intermediary between the underworld and the St. Paul police made him the cityÂ’s unofficial greeter for criminal types new to the city.
We have the dish and it has never frozen up due to cold. I think those people at Comcast are just blowing hot air in those commercials. I am going to go google Master Bates and see what I find.
Sped by at a quickened pace
While the gangster's moll, a German doll
Once played at this star-crossed place
The Minnesota Fighting Saints played at the Civic Center, now Xcel Engergy Center. Katarina Witt, a German doll, has skated there in the Stars on Ice shows. What was once called Seven Corners because of seven streets converging there now has five streets. Star crossed. Forepaughs Restaurant is near by. Bring to the fore. The RNC was held at the Xcel.
Just playing devil's advocate for you fine folks. :sillygrin:
The stairs are gone, but the memories live on. And it is Delos that runs into Prospect Park.
There was a shoe shop in that area of the West Side where we bought our oxfords to wear with our school uniforms.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Gangster+Caves+St.+Paul+MN&sll=44.98123,-92.578633&sspn=0,359.990344&g=110th+and+80th+Roberts+WI&ie=UTF8&ll=44.936013,-93.086565&spn=0,359.69101&t=h&z=12&iwloc=A&layer=c&cbll=44.936013,-93.086565&panoid=uyFVTaGZismHny-PoE5Zdw&cbp=12,554.4356592327957,,0,5
    "Fountain Place"
    614 North Fountain Place
 Link on this page, scroll down
Margaret St?
Plus the Hamm mansion itself was starcrossed, it burned down, just like th hollow...
further info is that he was a city councilman, chief fire warden and Ramsey Count assessor. He was generally liked and is remembered as a quiet, pleasant man.
Bild Lilli Doll
The German Doll that inspired the Barbie Doll, according to Wiki.
Harriet/Lilydale??? the sped by could be the river??
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=666+Payne+Avenue+55106&sll=44.961411,-93.075966&sspn=0.010203,0.019312&ie=UTF8&ll=44.961367,-93.076&spn=0.010203,0.019312&t=h&z=16&iwloc=addr&layer=c&cbll=44.961411,-93.075966&panoid=w89uS5DU0hL-MpoimQFzqg&cbp=12,211.13376099070967,,0,5
It's getting to where I'm hating Comcast as much as I do Qwest. Not to mention Comcast is ROBBING me just to have a telephone!!!!
Enkneeweigh, google "Tour Saint Paul West Side." I can't get it to load here on a dial-up to get a link. It's by Historic Saint Paul and the Minnesota Humanities Commission. They also have one that includes SH - "Tour Saint Paul East Side to Lowertown."
Enkneeweigh, there are many similarities, sameness and likenesses to SH. A guy by the the name of like Yoerg - something like that - had the very first brewery, did the cave thing and even had his house overlooking his brewery like Hamm did.
And it was the Dakota, now Wabasha, Bridge the crooks went over. My error. I read so much I can't remember it all.
I'm lost. I'm outta BC pretty much, back in SH, but still thinking Chair-O-Key, or maybe Prospect which I can't find diddle about.
Actaully, the street car turnaround was up on the bluffs and at Annapolis. You'll find that if you google about the WS Flats.
I like thinking the street cars more than the train because I don't think those trains at SH carried passengers.
I need to google Castle Royale and there was another club near by, I think, that has since been torn down. I can see the picture of it, but can't remember a thing about it I read. But it was a doozy for folks to come to.
"There are many [by green - caves], most now covered or filled, in which people once used to grow mushrooms,age cheese, store beer (the Yoerg Brewery was built right into the bluffs a short distance to the west)... A big cave right at the Wabasha curve has been a speakeasy and nightclub off and on for decades [by green - Castle Royale]."
Not that it's not at SH, but... I don't know. But I'm back at SH, Chair-O-Key and/or Prospect and outta BC.
I'm tired! I've been running all over the place this Hunt! :smile:
Its a same name game so to speak.
I don't think the moll and the doll are the same person.
But then, I'm not finding anything else that fits either.
The german doll was the predecessor to the Barbie doll. Not that it means anything here.
That would be Lilydale or Cherokee.
Saints and sinners, losers and winners
Sped by at a quickened pace While the gangster's moll, a German doll Once played at this star-crossed place
Most have separated the first two lines from the second but it says they sped by While or during the time when the german doll played...
From Grumpy Steves Coffee at the Wabasha Caves.
Lilydale could be the western boundary and Wabasha could be the eastern boundary and it would be Chair-O-Key. With Castle Royale at the bottom of Chair-O-Key.
I *think* many stars once played the other bar/speakeasy I can't remember. I'd love to google but would prolly lose my connection. May risk it. It's bugging me, that place.
You are funny, Wolf!! But in the end it just comes down to good old fashioned leg and foot work!
A Gangster's Moll is a Molly - Molly coming from the name Mary (Maria) could be a reference to Maria Ave which is the eastern border street for SH.
(Note: I do have a friend named Mary that goes by Molly)
But then I was sold on Harriet a few years ago until Horton came out. Sooooo...
A surreal climate enveloped MinnesotaÂ’s capital as these thugs and thieves mingled with the good citizens of St. Paul. Maccabee describes speakeasies and criminal hangouts dotting the landscape, from a casino called the Hollyhocks Club on South Mississippi Boulevard to the Castle Royal nightclub at the Wabasha Street caves in west St. Paul. A popular joint called the Green Dragon sat at the corner of University and Snelling in the Midway district, while the Commodore Hotel, near the tony mansions of Cathedral Hill, became a choice watering hole as well. Downtown, the Green Lantern was a notorious hangout, operated by local gangster Harry Sawyer, whose work as an intermediary between the underworld and the St. Paul police made him the cityÂ’s unofficial greeter for criminal types new to the city.